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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotelconucc93 View Post
    The money at Ginnie is in drunk rubber tubers and camping. The pain in the ass customers with low profit and high risk are us

    I?d suggest playing nice in the karst-box.
    I've heard this kind of comment a few times and really wonder if it's just assumption, or based on any real facts or data??

    Although playing nice in their "sand box" is surely a great strategy, I am compelled to wonder I the owners/mgt of GSO really cares as little about us as rumors might suggest.

    Just tossing in some basic business context... Their "drunk tuber" income drops off a cliff during this time of year and most of their overhead costs do not. Sure they can lay off the tube rental kids and save a few bucks, but their perm staff has to eat and pay rent or find other employment. Most businesses manage their books month to month or period to period, so a feast or famine model is tough. There are always things to spend rev on during the "feast" times. I.e.: paving new roads etc. During the slow times, you still have to make payroll and keep the lights on.

    I don't have any inside info on their mgt style, but I seriously doubt the mgt is given a pass on balancing the books in Nov-Jan just because they made a kazillion dollars on Memorial Day and the 4th. And once you cycle through a couple years of those feast cycles, that just typically becomes part of your base assumption.

    So what percent of GSO gross rev comes from divers? I have no idea. But if it's only 5% annually, It's surely a much higher % this time of year. If anything, I would think they would want to encourage more divers when tubing is slow.

    In any case. I will do my best to play nice and follow the rules.

    It just kind of bugs me when I hear people say "Ginnie couldn't care less" etc....

    Maybe it's true.. but I don't believe 90% of the bs I hear around here.


  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adler View Post
    I've heard this kind of comment a few times and really wonder if it's just assumption, or based on any real facts or data??

    Although playing nice in their "sand box" is surely a great strategy, I am compelled to wonder I the owners/mgt of GSO really cares as little about us as rumors might suggest.

    Just tossing in some basic business context... Their "drunk tuber" income drops off a cliff during this time of year and most of their overhead costs do not. Sure they can lay off the tube rental kids and save a few bucks, but their perm staff has to eat and pay rent or find other employment. Most businesses manage their books month to month or period to period, so a feast or famine model is tough. There are always things to spend rev on during the "feast" times. I.e.: paving new roads etc. During the slow times, you still have to make payroll and keep the lights on.

    I don't have any inside info on their mgt style, but I seriously doubt the mgt is given a pass on balancing the books in Nov-Jan just because they made a kazillion dollars on Memorial Day and the 4th. And once you cycle through a couple years of those feast cycles, that just typically becomes part of your base assumption.

    So what percent of GSO gross rev comes from divers? I have no idea. But if it's only 5% annually, It's surely a much higher % this time of year. If anything, I would think they would want to encourage more divers when tubing is slow.

    In any case. I will do my best to play nice and follow the rules.

    It just kind of bugs me when I hear people say "Ginnie couldn't care less" etc....

    Maybe it's true.. but I don't believe 90% of the bs I hear around here.
    Well run the numbers and assume 30 cave divers on a busy day * $30 = $900 / day. That's $325,800 a year. That number is also a severe overestimate and gets skewed significantly downward because (1) annual pass holders and (2)discount for "full cave" and (3) most days I doubt doubt you have 30 cave diver check ins. I bet it's closer to $150k. It doesn't strike me as a lot of income for a business with overhead and employees. If you want to include open water divers that changes things but that's not what we are talking about.

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


  3. #153

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    Has Ginnie ever been sued by a diver or divers family related to a fatality or other catastrophic event?

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  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver View Post
    Has Ginnie ever been sued by a diver or divers family related to a fatality or other catastrophic event?

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Yes, many times.


  5. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver View Post
    Has Ginnie ever been sued by a diver or divers family related to a fatality or other catastrophic event?

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Yes, many times.


  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Well run the numbers and assume 30 cave divers on a busy day * $30 = $900 / day. That's $325,800 a year. That number is also a severe overestimate and gets skewed significantly downward because (1) annual pass holders and (2)discount for "full cave" and (3) most days I doubt doubt you have 30 cave diver check ins. I bet it's closer to $150k. It doesn't strike me as a lot of income for a business with overhead and employees. If you want to include open water divers that changes things but that's not what we are talking about.

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
    Far too simple of an analysis to convince me of anything.
    Sure the OW divers matter. Even Intro divers who pay more.
    How many Ann pass holders are out there? I wouldn't even hazard a guess.
    What's the impact of non diving activity linked to cave diving? I.e. Camping, non divers, store sales etc.

    Have two recent references that lead me to believe there are somewhat significant factors you might not be considering. One group stayed for several days and paid to RV camp while there. And had non divers that along for the ride.

    Another group I met around A campfire was from Europe and paid ahead for 4 days at Ginnie, but ended up at Peacock for at least one of those days.

    Oh well.... perhaps you are right. And they don't really care.

    In my business, we distribute over 800 distinct items. If my slowest line made up only 5% of my sales, that could still be enough to make or break my year. I would much rather report out 105% of my forecasted sales than 95%! A 5% decline in business will get you canned in my world.


  7. #157
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    St Petersburg, FL
    Posts
    2,448

    Default Cave CCR certification required at Ginnie Springs

    Such a silly turn. You can make up 50 different calculations but you're never gonna know ginnie's annual income on divers. All you need to know is we arent special cause we're dumb enough to swim into caves. We are a part of ginnies business makeup just like the drunk college kids are. They are making money off of all of us, but remember nobody knows if that equals profit. At the end of the day they care about us just as much as they do any other of their revenue streams. The only fact that we know is that current management finds the risk to benefit ratio has moved to the point that the risk of allowing noncave certified ccr divers family suing outweighs the benefit.
    You can be unhappy about it, or you can get the cert, or go somewhere else.
    Who you should really be pissed at is wes skiles' widow and the family of the guys who killed themselves sneak diving on a cds property without permission. They're the ones that are increasing the risk side of the ratio with their lawsuits.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adler View Post
    Far too simple of an analysis to convince me of anything.
    Sure the OW divers matter. Even Intro divers who pay more.
    How many Ann pass holders are out there? I wouldn't even hazard a guess.
    What's the impact of non diving activity linked to cave diving? I.e. Camping, non divers, store sales etc.

    Have two recent references that lead me to believe there are somewhat significant factors you might not be considering. One group stayed for several days and paid to RV camp while there. And had non divers that along for the ride.

    Another group I met around A campfire was from Europe and paid ahead for 4 days at Ginnie, but ended up at Peacock for at least one of those days.

    Oh well.... perhaps you are right. And they don't really care.

    In my business, we distribute over 800 distinct items. If my slowest line made up only 5% of my sales, that could still be enough to make or break my year. I would much rather report out 105% of my forecasted sales than 95%! A 5% decline in business will get you canned in my world.
    I am going to bet Bob's (aka Daedalus) is probably not far off. Are cave divers a real goldmine for Ginnie? I think the best way is looking at Ginnie springs has done over the years. Up until about 1995 the Ginnie shop where you checked in was smaller,but it was the place tech divers would dream of going. Their display shelves were lined with every manufacturers tech equipment, and everyone that worked behind the register was a cave instructor (Jablonski, Moon, Cole, Berman). Now, the shop expanded, and it is primarily a t-shirt shop and the employees are kids. Ginnie is going to sell what makes them the most money, and obviously tech gear isn't it. Ginnie used to be the premiere location to take classes, with the previously mentioned people being their instructors. Ginnie is a site now you can be taught,but gave up teaching classes and having staff instructors. Ginnie's has a compressor,but hasn't made an attempt to upgrade facilities to sell banked nitrox or trimix. If gas sales were that profitable for them, especially with the number of classes taught there, they would capture the business, versus all their visitors leaving the premises to purchase gas and gear. I have to really wonder are cave divers something that really helps their bottom line that much. In the grand scheme of the world of ecotourism in Florida, cave divers are a small blip on the radar screen

    "Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick

  9. #159

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    so... read the title of this thread and am very disappointed to see that Ginnie has done this. What isn't clear from the title of this thread is if you are allowed to still dive OC Cave as long as you have a CCR Cave certification or if you can only dive CCR the unit on the card.

    Chris Richardson

  10. #160

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop View Post
    Up until about 1995 the Ginnie shop where you checked in was smaller,but it was the place tech divers would dream of going. Their display shelves were lined with every manufacturers tech equipment, and everyone that worked behind the register was a cave instructor (Jablonski, Moon, Cole, Berman). Now, the shop expanded, and it is primarily a t-shirt shop and the employees are kids.
    JJ, Tyler, Ted and Berman were kids then, just saying, all in their 20's

    Chris Richardson


 

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