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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by PfcAJ View Post
    Thats an issue, and you really don't know what you've got when you link up with someone trained differently. There's so many things in cave diving that unless you specifically go through all the situations you won't know if you're really on the same page.
    All it takes is a fifteen minute conversation unless you're doing a big dive. Even then, would you be doing a big dive with a new buddy anyway?

    Not knocking GUE (they train amazing divers), but by training outside of GUE (with equally skilled instructors), I saved enough money to buy a scooter... I would never skimp on training for $$$, but if the quality is the same, why pay more?

    Dive Safe,
    Frank

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by inverted_bear View Post
    All it takes is a fifteen minute conversation unless you're doing a big dive. Even then, would you be doing a big dive with a new buddy anyway?

    Not knocking GUE (they train amazing divers), but by training outside of GUE (with equally skilled instructors), I saved enough money to buy a scooter... I would never skimp on training for $$$, but if the quality is the same, why pay more?
    You're not really correct here.

    Did your lecture and dry practice portion before each critical skills dive total up to 15mins? I thought not. There's actually a lot of content. And if we were taught differently (likely), which method do we use? The one you've never done before or the method I've never done before?

    A diver might decide that compromising is ok, but let's not act like that compromise is equal to everyone being on precisely the same page.


  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by PfcAJ View Post
    You're not really correct here.

    Did your lecture and dry practice portion before each critical skills dive total up to 15mins? I thought not. There's actually a lot of content. And if we were taught differently (likely), which method do we use? The one you've never done before or the method I've never done before?
    We wouldn't be on fundamentally the same level, but you don't think that we could cover most of the basic procedures fairly quickly? Assuming no scooters, no stages, and that each diver is diving the same mix, it shouldn't take too long to cover gas planning, jump procedures, lost buddy procedures, lights out procedures, and gas sharing procedures. You can mark jumps both ways, gas planning is before you get in the water, lights out would take five minutes to practice, and gas sharing is taught the same way by all the mainstream agencies. Most of the basic hand signals are consistent, but even that conversation is quick. Both divers should know how to decompress at this level. The algorithms should yield similar results to within a few minutes unless you're doing really long or deep dives. Lost buddy procedure could be an issue, but most agencies teach similar practices. Lost line, you would typically be on your own anyway.

    Of course we wouldn't have identical procedures, but do you really think you couldn't have a safe dive with somebody after a quick vetting and conversation? We're not talking going to the ends of the earth here, just a simple dive with a jump or two.

    You wouldn't be on precisely the same page, but you should be able to do a basic dive safely. If you wanted to go do a big dive, you would obviously have plenty of build-up dives where you would have lots of time to get every procedure ironed-out.

    Dive Safe,
    Frank

  4. #24
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    A "basic dive" can cook your goose just as easily as a "big dive". Don't let perceived simplicity result in complacency.

    I think we're just going to go around in circles here, but for me, I prefer to dive with people who were trained the same way. I generally try to avoid surprises underwater.

    Also I'm curious how you know how gas sharing is taught across all mainstream agencies? What I was taught in my gue courses was quite a bit different and more detailed than what I learned in my NAUI cave class.


  5. #25

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    So if you were to take a freshly trained Full Cave diver from TDI (insert your favorite TDI instructor here) and you were to take a freshly trained GUE Cave diver, are we saying that:

    A) The difference in skills would be so great that GUE diver will essentially become a baby sitter?
    B) They would both be skilled to the same level but the procedural differences would be so phenomenal that one would have to totally let go of their trained procedures to be able to dive with the other?


  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUB ZERO View Post
    So if you were to take a freshly trained Full Cave diver from TDI (insert your favorite TDI instructor here) and you were to take a freshly trained GUE Cave diver, are we saying that:

    A) The difference in skills would be so great that GUE diver will essentially become a baby sitter?
    B) They would both be skilled to the same level but the procedural differences would be so phenomenal that one would have to totally let go of their trained procedures to be able to dive with the other?
    I'm definitely not saying A. And I'm not really even saying B. I'm saying its suboptimal and its generally not for me.


  7. #27

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    What AJ is saying is that he's more comfortable diving with people who he knows that, without question, have received the same baseline knowledge dump and procedural skill set. If things get sporty, it would be a safe assumption that, procedurally at least, the response will be common to both parties without differing procedures muddying the waters.

    GUE standards being much less open to interpretation, and the instructor cadre holding to a much more rigid structure, the "control" group is much larger and the "variables" group much smaller. In a mixed (agency) team, with differing standards and potentially quality levels of instruction, that control group shrinks and the variables grow.


  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUB ZERO View Post
    So if you were to take a freshly trained Full Cave diver from TDI (insert your favorite TDI instructor here) and you were to take a freshly trained GUE Cave diver, are we saying that:

    A) The difference in skills would be so great that GUE diver will essentially become a baby sitter?
    B) They would both be skilled to the same level but the procedural differences would be so phenomenal that one would have to totally let go of their trained procedures to be able to dive with the other?
    A-theoretically no, but completely possible. Not necessarily with these agencies, but not necessarily not these agencies, I have witnessed this personally
    B-highly unlikely, but there is possibility of enough of a difference to make it annoying. The fundamentals should be the same, but some of the nuances are almost guaranteed to be different

    I'm not GUE trained, and likely never will be, we have some very large fundamental differences that I can't/won't overcome to justify training with them with the biggest being solo diving. That said, they have a huge advantage that they are able to maintain consistent quality standards that are unheard of in our industry that all but guarantees compatibility with other divers, even if you don't speak the same language and have never met. It's a function of how small and tightly restricted they keep their agency. It isn't without fault as they are unable to adapt and move quickly through changes, but that is something they are willing to sacrifice in order to maintain their incredible quality control.

    UTD seems to operate on most of the same underlying principles, but is more open to change and adoption of new technology/techniques. Their downfall is they still try to slam that square peg into a round hole and that creates the abomination that is their sidemount manifold and creates a less than ideal quality control system.

    With GUE you are shopping the agency and the instructor doesn't matter, personally I think if you go with UTD, you are losing a lot of the pros and gaining a lot of cons while still spending a lot of money.

    If you go to another agency, say TDI since you brought it up, you are rolling the dice. There is absolutely 0 guarantee that you are going to get quality instruction and anyone who says otherwise is lying or ignorant. At that point you absolutely have to shop the instructor more than anything.

    To go quickly through the TDI Florida full cave instructor list, there are probably 6 instructors on that list that can and likely will train you to a point that you can integrate fairly easily into a GUE dive team, but there are also a handful that as a NAUI instructor, I wouldn't certify as an instructor because I don't trust them to train my family. There are 10 on that list that I would, and 5 that I know with 100% certainty I wouldn't trust to teach my wife open water heaven forbid cave. It's a complete crap shoot if you shop for training through TDI and don't do your homework on the instructors and not just TDI, same with IANTD, NSS-CDS, NACD, NAUI, the list goes on. GUE is the only agency that I would be able to put blind faith in one of their instructors to train my wife.

    If you trust the instructor you are close to, then it might be worth going with them. I don't know Tanya, so can't/won't comment
    If you truly believe in what GUE believes in for cave diving, then I would probably urge you to go and spend up for the training with them. GUE has a fundies course in Raleigh coming up with MER this summer, and they run cave 1 courses in Florida pretty regularly.
    If you aren't 100% committed to their philosophy, either UTD, or GUE, it may still be worth doing your homework and find a more like-minded instructor.
    If you want to dive sidemount, I would recommend going away from GUE/UTD and going with Edd because he is the expert in sidemount.

    no one can answer those questions, but you, but they are definitely worth asking


  9. #29
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    Tbone what makes you think that a tdi instructor wil he able to teach gue's methods? Did they also take c1, c2, and go through the IE process?

    It's a bit more than just being flat in the water and doing some kicks.


  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by PfcAJ View Post
    Tbone what makes you think that a tdi instructor wil he able to teach gue's methods? Did they also take c1, c2, and go through the IE process?

    It's a bit more than just being flat in the water and doing some kicks.
    there are some TDI instructors that have been through the full GUE training, some including the IE process and have dropped status as instructor for various reasons



 

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