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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Maybe for experienced cave divers but not for newbies. Your brain is what keeps you safe and referencing the recent incident, obviously the brain shut down because it had to make too many decisions too fast. Would this have occurred if he was diving backmount? We'll never know, but there would have been a lot less decision making involved. Learn how to cave dive, then when you actually have the experience to be able to think in an underwater cave while stressed, try sidemount. Just my opinion as always...

    Safe diving,

    Rich
    lot less in which way Rich? I would contend that given what has been said so far even had the diver been on BM if the left rolled off or the isolator was shut for some reason there is no reason to think that proper corrective actions would have occurred...because if he did have 2200 psi in a shut of SM tank then corrective action didn't occur. If it was simply the extra stress of gas management switches with SM the valve with the gas in it would have been open not shut yeah??

    I do think that sm can allow folks to get themselves into snug spots much easier and likely than BM and that many may not have the training and experience to really "get it" how dark and how fast that can happen.

    Chris Richardson

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    LOL Bob, I have yet to see someone make it through a Cavern/Intro in 4 days using SM, need at least one extra day to teach the style... The dreaded words when booking classes, "Can I do it in sidemount?" "Sure, but you going to pay me for the extra time!"
    So you're training people in a cave before they can properly handle their gear before the class? If wanna switch gear, you should learn in OW first, no? Isn't a requirement to start a cave class?


  3. #13

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    It's just my opinion, Chris. As you know I dive and teach both configurations, I don't really know what happened at OG. Muscle memory and situational awareness will keep you alive and teaching that in BM is a lot easier than teaching it in SM. For the beginner, which reg am I breathing, what's my pressure, where's my hose etc doesn't blend well with teaching them how to cave dive. BM is simple and you can teach the small stuff which is what counts in the long run, rather than watching the student fight the configuration that someone told him or her was cool to dive....

    Safe diving,

    Rich

    Education, enjoyment and exploration.....
    http://divecaves.com
    https://www.facebook.com/divecaves

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by bent View Post
    So you're training people in a cave before they can properly handle their gear before the class? If wanna switch gear, you should learn in OW first, no? Isn't a requirement to start a cave class?
    Hell no, that's how people kack. I'm having to deal with them in OW before we even start the overhead stuff. Hence the extra time...

    Safe diving,

    Rich

    Education, enjoyment and exploration.....
    http://divecaves.com
    https://www.facebook.com/divecaves

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    It's just my opinion, Chris. As you know I dive and teach both configurations, I don't really know what happened at OG. Muscle memory and situational awareness will keep you alive and teaching that in BM is a lot easier than teaching it in SM. For the beginner, which reg am I breathing, what's my pressure, where's my hose etc doesn't blend well with teaching them how to cave dive. BM is simple and you can teach the small stuff which is what counts in the long run, rather than watching the student fight the configuration that someone told him or her was cool to dive....

    Safe diving,

    Rich
    was just trying to see what you were thinking because you are teaching a ton (more than I) in both.

    I haven't found that SM tasks loads students more than BM in any significant manner. I can say that on BM I have seen more students and divers not pick up on their isolator shut or left postreg not turned on than in SM, because of the dual SPG's and checking.

    The biggest issue I have found (including me) is getting experienced BM divers that are transitioning to remember to switch...but once they develop muscle memory it generally become a non issue.

    SM or BM, when a student hasn't actually been taught to use the configuration it adds at least a day. Cavern and/or Intro with the intention of progression to full cave taught in a single, even in a H or Y valve is not a sufficient enough preparation for the student.

    Chris Richardson

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    For the beginner, which reg am I breathing, what's my pressure, where's my hose etc doesn't blend well with teaching them how to cave dive.
    Don't you think that's a 'dive-noob issue' and not a 'cave dive noob issue'?
    If you need one or two extra days it sounds like these people weren't ready to begin with.


  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by bent View Post
    Don't you think that's a 'dive-noob issue' and not a 'cave dive noob issue'?
    If you need one or two extra days it sounds like these people weren't ready to begin with.
    in truth....may (most) folks aren't ready for cave training at the intro level. If Rich said no versus "pay me for the extra time" he would starve, and Rich has a cool kid.

    Chris Richardson

  8. #18

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    there's always something to be political about. IMHO, if new divers want to try sidemount and it works for them, good for them. we start diving because it's fun, and we keep diving because it keeps being fun. I'm all for nudging people to improve on things like trim, streamlining, and safe practices, but deciding for yourself which configuration generally is more complex (and thus less safe) doesn't necessarily have any bearing on whether another person is more safe in their preferred setup vs. yours. I expect a diver in a configuration that they know well and are comfortable with will do better than a diver in a "safer" or "simpler" configuration with which they are less comfortable - all this talk about muscle memory, muscle memory isn't a configuration, it's built with experience in the configuration you know.

    just my own .02, plenty of pennies to go around.


  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotus View Post
    there's always something to be political about. IMHO, if new divers want to try sidemount and it works for them, good for them. we start diving because it's fun, and we keep diving because it keeps being fun. I'm all for nudging people to improve on things like trim, streamlining, and safe practices, but deciding for yourself which configuration generally is more complex (and thus less safe) doesn't necessarily have any bearing on whether another person is more safe in their preferred setup vs. yours. I expect a diver in a configuration that they know well and are comfortable with will do better than a diver in a "safer" or "simpler" configuration with which they are less comfortable - all this talk about muscle memory, muscle memory isn't a configuration, it's built with experience in the configuration you know.

    just my own .02, plenty of pennies to go around.
    in shooting circles there is a saying "be careful of the man with one gun" (http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...re-man-one-gun)

    The same could apply to diving gear configurations. On the same token, most really experienced divers I know don't have difficulty diving different systems or even with the switching back and forth.

    Most cave skills in N FL style SM is pretty darn close to BM for most of us. The long hose on right, necklace backup from left is as close to the standard as any SM is likely to get. Gas management and where to reach to manipulate vales (sans isolator) are the most significant differences while actually diving SM over BM(versus gearing up). That is notthe case globally however.

    Chris Richardson

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cerich View Post
    in truth....may (most) folks aren't ready for cave training at the intro level. If Rich said no versus "pay me for the extra time" he would starve, and Rich has a cool kid.
    I have actually have no clue how much dive experience the average cave student has. If people only have a 100 or a couple of hundered dives is easy conditions like quarries and on reefs, they'd probably be better off doing their classes in BM first... so if Rich's students are mostly newish divers, I'd agree that BM might be the better choise.

    This is more an 'standards issue', more than a problem with sidemount configuration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotus View Post
    I'm all for nudging people to improve on things like trim, streamlining, and safe practices, but deciding for yourself which configuration generally is more complex (and thus less safe) doesn't necessarily have any bearing on whether another person is more safe in their preferred setup vs. yours.
    You can't decide which configuration is more complex, it's not a matter of opinion. SM is more complex than BM, that doesn't automatically makes it less safe.



 

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