I tie onto the permanent arrows, AND leave one of my cookies on MY exit side (with or against the direction of the double arrows) and suggest that my partner also place a cookie. If my partner is placing the jumps, I place my own cookie next to his jump. By previous agreement with my partner, if we get separated I pull ONLY my cookie off, and leave the jump in place. As a signal that I have exited the cave without my partner.
Take only photos, leave only bubbles, kill only time.
We could go round and round about this question and it has been well discussed well on a past thread. The systems I dive, I know them pretty well and trust the arrows that have been there for a long time. So with that said, I would rather go back to my point of entry but, if gas will not allow it then I really have no choice but to go the nearest exit verified line or not. So, two choices present themselves: #1 my gas will not allow me to make it back to my point of entry, I die, but the line was verified. #2 I take the arrow pointing to the nearest exit that I have not verified, I make it out alive or it is wrong and I die. I think that I would rather stack the deck in my favor and take the unverified line to the nearest exit. So the question to you gearhound is: There is a cave in and you can't get to your "verified line" now what. My bet is that you would gladly take the unverified line. Right? So it really depends on the situation. I am still learning and always wanting to gain knowledge from others much better than myself.Originally Posted by gearhound
"...some night, in the chill darkness, someone will make a mistake: The sea will show him no mercy." John T. Cunningham
If you came across two arrows pointing in one direction but you came from the other direction, why not place your own arrow facing the way you came. Then you know that once back to the main line, you can go the way you came from your arrow direction, or go the other way in an emergency. Tie your jump between the first arrow and your arrow so you can find the way in NO viz. My arrows are marked in a way I will know which one is mine. Im new so maybe Im wrong but seems everyone has their ways.
That may confuse other divers. That is why cookies were invented in the first place, so you could mark your exit, and not confuse other divers.
Very true, so you could put a cookie inplace of your own arrow.
Absolutely. Anything placed on the line as far as a directional navigation marker must always agree with other markers,and if in doubt then clothes pins,cookies etc. I know this flies in the face of how some people have been taught,but history has shown placing contradictory line arrows has caused incidents/accidents.
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
Amen...
Safe diving,
Rich
Exactly! One thing I did years ago was make a tactile mark on my cookies on one half (a mark all the way through, not on one of the flat halves) and I always place my cookies on the line with that mark on the side of my exit. This way, while the cookie is a non-directional to anyone else who sees it or feels it, it is a directional to me. Someone created a rectangle in Mexico a couple years ago with that same concept in mind. Cookies are cheaper and easier to get and making the mark isn't very difficult.
Rob Neto
Chipola Divers
Cozumel Caves Expeditions
"Survival depends on being able to suppress anxiety and replace it with calm, clear, quick and correct reasoning..." -Sheck Exley
isn't that a lot to leave where there's already 2 arrows - crowding an already indicated popular jump? I learned that double arrows indicated the same - popular jumps...so where would the next team tie in if there's all this going on, especially if they also leave cookies, etc? Just asking for your thoughts on it...2 arrows and 2 cookies just for your team of 2...next team of 2 comes along that wants to do that jump and there's now 2 arrows and 4 cookies....
I learned, and like, tying off in between the arrows. If a team is already there, I place my own arrow further into the cave and tie off on that arrow.
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CaveMann
I'm starting to get a little scared here. Aren't the basics like:
1) never leave a conflicting line arrow;
2) leave cookies on the exit side of the jump line (so it is in effect directional);
3) mark your cookies and line arrows visually and tactilely so you can tell they are yours; and
3) plan enough reserve gas so you don't have to exit on an unverified line;
covered in Intro and Cave classes?
Do instructors not teach it, do students not hear it, or do students forget it later on?
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Upstream of Kitty sink in Lafayette Blue I noted that dorf markers on the line were located on the exit (toward Kitty) side of many of the tie offs, which struck me as a very effective way to place a "directional" arrow pointing to the closest exit in a manner where it still gave you a reference to your exit in the other direction. Who ever placed those knew his stuff.
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My preference is to place my jump line on an arrow on an existing line provided it is not conflicting with my verified exit and another line is not already there. Placing the line on the actual arrow is slightly more time consuming to place and remove, but it won't slide and if the jump gets busy, there won't be any confusion about what arrow is yours or where the line is in relation to which arrow in the event someone places a conflicting arrow.
In some cases, especially if another line is present, I may place my line before or after the marked jump to reduce the line spaghetti - if I do that my preference is to place it on the exit side to avoid the other lines and markers you'd have to pass in a lights out situation in an emergency.
If the arrows on the line are conflicting, I place my jump line on the exit side of the temporary or permanent markers already there (as much as possible/practical - again to minimize confusion) and I place a cookie immediately on the exit side of my jump line. I also ensure my cookies are individually identifiable.
If we are dropping stages or scooters at a jump (or anywhere else for that matter) I place them on the exit side of the jump and I place them on the line so they are facing toward my exit so that they are in effect directional markers.
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There are some common sense exceptions. If it is a small off the beaten path system where it is likely to be only are team in the system, I'll probably default to leaving arrows and not bother with cookies at all.
If there are not many teams in a touristy system, we'll each drop a cookie. Otherwise on a busy day or in a system with a ton of T's we'll probably leave team cookies. You can argue the merits of dropping a cookie for each team member so that in the event of separation you know whether or not your buddy left. But in that event, the exiting diver can also leave the team cookie and drop a line arrow next to it, indicating he/she left. In that case you are only adding clutter in an actual lost cave diver/buddy separation situation, and you are leaving directional clutter that might assist the lost/missing diver.
NACD Cave DPV Cert # 666: Cave DPV Anti-christ
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