How many dives before Appren / Full Cave?

[Puttzer]

LOL.

What a wonderful ego.

[Jax]

So you think there is no way for a new intro diver to dive safely, if solo, within common sense guidelines, and to do the practice skills and such that a diver needs to practice to hone one's skills?


Serious question here . . . I think rjack could chime in here.


and Please . . . cite your reasoning. Calling names and such isn't helpful at all.

[pink arrows]

To elaborate . . .

There is a lot that people don't know -- like I have been practicing cave work for a year, in OW. That I am Wreck certified and use the same skills.

However, I believe you have to practice IN the environment to make it right. So, I dive in the cavern and run line. Over, and over. And, I close my eyes and come out. And I can do that in the cavern.

Really, it is about risk management. Some manage risk by following rules, rigidly. Me, I prefer to think. And frankly, if I don't have the skills to do drills in the cavern, without endangering myself and others, I deserve the consequences.

You couldn't pay me to go into a cavern by myself and close my eyes and try to get out...

While it is important to master these skills, it's more important to do so safely. Why not find another intro-level buddy (or full or whatever) to do those drills with you? I practice skills on dives with new intro-divers all the time, and I haven't met anyone who couldn't benefit from a line drill here and there.

[PfcAJ]

So you think there is no way for a new intro diver to dive safely, if solo, within common sense guidelines, and to do the practice skills and such that a diver needs to practice to hone one's skills?


Serious question here . . . I think rjack could chime in here.


and Please . . . cite your reasoning. Calling names and such isn't helpful at all.

The common sense guideline you're missing out on is diving with a buddy. You're BRAND NEW at it, and you want to go by yourself? Think that through for a second...

[hunabku]

So you think there is no way for a new intro diver to dive safely, if solo, within common sense guidelines, and to do the practice skills and such that a diver needs to practice to hone one's skills?

I need a better knowledge of the common sense guidelines for solo intro level skills practice in an overhead enviroment to form a good opinon.

What were they again?

Serious question.

"Common sense" is pretty subjective. As close as I live to cave country and as solid as I feel with my skills it was very difficult for me to talk myself out of doing what you are suggesting during my time at intro level.

My "common sense" told me it was a bad idea. My "common sense" was that I might not be able to handle some of the carp I could get myself into because I was in fact still learning.

Nobody can tell you what to do. You will have to use your own "common sense"

Really, it is about risk management. Some manage risk by following rules, rigidly. Me, I prefer to think. And frankly, if I don't have the skills to do drills in the cavern, without endangering myself and others, I deserve the consequences.

One of the consequences you mentioned is endagering others.

[RN]

The most important thing I look for in my full cave students is situational awareness. I expect that the skills to already be there, and most of the time they are. What I want to see is awareness of everything that is going on around them. You can practice your skills in the pool every week. You need time in the caves to practice your awareness. That's not something you can get in a pool or lake. Situational awareness involves the entire dive plan and then some. Turning at the right time, pressure, or penetration distance. Awareness of the line. Awareness of the passage. Completing the decompression schedule on time. And so much more. It's a lot more than just getting in the water and swimming. It's more about the planning and execution of the dive. At least for me anyway.

[pink arrows]

My "common sense" was that I might not be able to handle some of the carp I could get myself into because I was in fact still learning.
[/B].

I couldn't be more proud to call you the godfather of my son right now.

[TracyN]

Hey Jax,

I would have no problem diving with you and practicing skills. Many of the things you want to work on, I need to work on as well. My mission is to learn how to beat the flow in Ginnie. It's still kicking my butt although my SAC rate has improved somewhat.

[stairman]

I think Rob hit it on the head with situational awareness. You can practice plenty but being able to perform on command in a class where the stress blocks some of your thought process is important because thats how an emergency will hit you. Taskloading, monitering fin kicks, PSI, depth, buancy and the ever important line and your buddy are alot, then add quickly to that no vis, buddy OOA, switching regs handing off your primary, getting on the line , buddy contact, the good thing is your kicks, PSI and depth can be put on hold temporarily while you concentrate on the other tasks at hand. How your brain reacts to sudden changes and protocal will determine how fast you can progress with the cave program. Grace under pressure without brainfarts is the key IMO. Learning from your mistakes, as long as their not too big, seem to be a good way to learn.

[BabyDuck]

I don't think Intro divers should be solo diving, even just in a cavern.
They are not certified for switching bottles/ stages yet either. That's how we end up with threads asking what color reg people use to tell their bottles apart.

That's inaccurate and a bit of a cheap shot in terms of the OP in the thread you are referencing. She's already full cave and AN/DP.

emphasis mine.

larry was talking about the *switching* thread, not *this* thread. that seems to me to be the thread you're talking about in this quote. if we're wrong and you weren't talking about xenia, i apologize.

jax, i also have problems with the solo part of the plan. every buddy should be absolutely willing to practice themselves or at least hang out and give you constructive criticism. the rest of it sounds good - i'd say three trips, with a mentor/instructor assessment at the end of trip three. then if s/he says you're looking good, you can plan the class trip for the next time and if not you won't waste time trying to coordinate a class you aren't ready for. then the class trip with a day of diving beforehand to get set, and the class.