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View Poll Results: What experience is needed to dive upstream Cow Spring???

Voters
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  • Abe Davis or equivalent for all divers

    49 44.95%
  • Abe Davis or equivalent for at least one diver in a team

    10 9.17%
  • Prior Cow experience by at least one diver in a team

    40 36.70%
  • No experience requirement

    10 9.17%
  • Another option that I didn't think of......

    0 0%
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Results 141 to 147 of 147
  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by fno View Post
    As a clarification of my previous statement, another post.... The percieved liability only comes from the fact that the CDS is currently for the last two years operating Cow with no requirement for proof of 100 cave dives at the Dive Outpost. This is considered in legal terms as being inconsistent with the Management Plan and would put the CDS in a court of law as acting inconstently and not following the plan as written. Not advisable is what the lawyers tell us. Now to changing the plan, please direct all requests for change to me along with your NSS-CDS name and number. I will compile them before the next BoD meeting along with a written request to have an agenda item added in. This has been done before and worked out just fine. If the board is aware of what even appears to be a majority of membership wanting a change and that change is consistent with the Constitution and By-Laws at the time, then it gets voted on and usually done. There is nothing complicated or secrective about this process and it is far more efficient than bitching about issues on CDF. As always, my phone is almost always on and I am available to discuss any aspect NSS-CDS with other members.

    Best regards, Frank Ohidy, Program Director, NSS-CDS
    So in essence, all Kathy or Dive Outpost staff would have to do is verify that a diver has 100 logged dives by looking at the log, noting an Abe Davis or Wakulla Bronze sticker on the cave card, or by just knowing the diver personally, and knowing he or she has 100 post full cave dives? It would add a minute or two to the check in process at most. (And Kathy or her staff could quickly create a list of diver's who've previously documented their eligibility to dive there, making it a very quick process even if the diver does not have documentation on his person.)

    So what's the problem? Post the requirements at DO and divers either show proof to meet the requirements or they don't get the key.

  2. #142

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster View Post
    So in essence, all Kathy or Dive Outpost staff would have to do is verify that a diver has 100 logged dives by looking at the log, noting an Abe Davis or Wakulla Bronze sticker on the cave card, or by just knowing the diver personally, and knowing he or she has 100 post full cave dives? It would add a minute or two to the check in process at most. (And Kathy or her staff could quickly create a list of diver's who've previously documented their eligibility to dive there, making it a very quick process even if the diver does not have documentation on his person.)

    So what's the problem? Post the requirements at DO and divers either show proof to meet the requirements or they don't get the key.
    makes perfect sense to me.

  3. #143

    Default

    and if anything happens to someone or someone gets a key or say he dives downstream cow, some lawyer would find a way to make the property manager liable. Would anybody volunteer to take extra work for free or whatever the deal is and have the slightest change to be liable for a hefty lawsuit?

  4. #144

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by huxley View Post
    and if anything happens to someone or someone gets a key or say he dives downstream cow, some lawyer would find a way to make the property manager liable. Would anybody volunteer to take extra work for free or whatever the deal is and have the slightest change to be liable for a hefty lawsuit?
    There would still the issue of negligence on the part of the diver who jumped the fence, etc to enter without proper permission.

    An attorney will give you the safest, most conservative advice, which is not to say it's the only defensible course of action.

  5. #145

    Default

    All of that said... Bottom line is, right or wrong, liable or not, you still might find yourself having to defend yourself in court and that costs both time and $$$$$
    Don't Tase me Bro!!!
    - some dumb ass

  6. #146
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Neptune Beach, FL
    Posts
    1,999

    Default

    Li and I were in there today and it seems that there is more wear and tear than before. Not vandalism but rather uninformed dive teams not using either the ski rope or the not using the existing pull and glide rock points versus making new ones.

    I for one believe Abe Davis should be a requirement.

    Tony Flaris
    "Men wanted for hazardous journey. Low wages, bitter cold, long hours of complete darkness. Safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in event of success."

    Earnest Shackleton

  7. #147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Line Squirrel View Post
    All of that said... Bottom line is, right or wrong, liable or not, you still might find yourself having to defend yourself in court and that costs both time and $$$$$
    You sound like an attorney, at least one who only looks at a very narrow, risk averse approach to avoiding any and all lawsuits of their client. So WTF, lets just go to the logical extreme and sell off Cow so that neither NSS-CDS, Dive Outpost nor any other party is liable for someone else's stupidity in illegally trespassing and then dying in Cow.

    Forgetting of course, that the above illegal trespass would have to happen, with a resulting fatality, with a family that hires an attorney who actually pursues the issue and does not have it thrown out of court before the legal costs to defend against the BS lawsuit amount to anything. As for DO's liability, they are only on the hook if they hand out the key to someone not on the approved list or not presenting proper documentation.

    In contrast to that, the harm of a policy of allowing less than Abe/less than escorted by people with previous upstream cow experience is almost certainly more traffic by less experienced divers resulting in more damage.

    The point being if you ask an attorney for the safest approach that's exactly what you will get - advice along the lines of stay home, don't get out of bed and keep the phone in your hand with your finger on the speed dial 911 button.

    If the BOD or anyone else actually wants to accomplish something, then they need to tell their lawyer what they want to do and then ask the attorney how to accomplish that with minimal risk. In this case that would produce answers of what procedures and documentation to use to keep DO and NSS-CDS out of trouble.


 

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