Cenote diving with a guide is mandatory

[Phil]

Hi there,
I went to Mexico about three weeks ago.
We were two people diving together on our own (no guide).

One day on a site, a van come along with a guide and 5 or 6 other divers. We get in the water before them and exited before also but we encounter them on our way out. Except from the silt they were stirring, everything seems good.

During our surface interval, they came out. Divers were from Europe and were speaking something like Russian I think. They started speaking loud and it was obvious that something happened during the dive.

At one moment the guide that was not speaking their language ask about what they were speaking. They were speaking about the incident....

During the exit, the last two persons supposedly took a jump without noticing it. The rest of the group p stayed together on the good line. At one moment the guide noticed the absence of the two divers. After the dive, the guide said "I did not want to leave you guys going alone (3 or 4 divers) toward the exit because I was scared you couldn’t find your way out without me”…. That is scary because everyone in the group was cave divers certified… Then the guide got on the subject of the two lost divers. The guide said “You know, when you want to know if you are exiting on the way you were getting in, you just have to follow your silting… if there is no silt, you are on the wrong way”… that is scary and sad…

Then, at the end, the guide said “You know, that is why you need a guide, you guys are not good enough divers to dive in caves by your own, it is dangerous for you. You should always dive with a guide”.

And another nice quote of that guide "People die in cenote because they get lost, in Florida, people dies because the caves are deep".

I am wondering what the credentials to be a cave diving guide…

I taught I should share that experience.
We had a lot of fun listening to that, but again, it is kind of scary to hear.

Phil.

[SMB]

Hi there,
I went to Mexico about three weeks ago.
We were two people diving together on our own (no guide).

One day on a site, a van come along with a guide and 5 or 6 other divers. We get in the water before them and exited before also but we encounter them on our way out. Except from the silt they were stirring, everything seems good.

During our surface interval, they came out. Divers were from Europe and were speaking something like Russian I think. They started speaking loud and it was obvious that something happened during the dive.

At one moment the guide that was not speaking their language ask about what they were speaking. They were speaking about the incident....

During the exit, the last two persons supposedly took a jump without noticing it. The rest of the group p stayed together on the good line. At one moment the guide noticed the absence of the two divers. After the dive, the guide said "I did not want to leave you guys going alone (3 or 4 divers) toward the exit because I was scared you couldn’t find your way out without me”…. That is scary because everyone in the group was cave divers certified… Then the guide got on the subject of the two lost divers. The guide said “You know, when you want to know if you are exiting on the way you were getting in, you just have to follow your silting… if there is no silt, you are on the wrong way”… that is scary and sad…

Then, at the end, the guide said “You know, that is why you need a guide, you guys are not good enough divers to dive in caves by your own, it is dangerous for you. You should always dive with a guide”.

And another nice quote of that guide "People die in cenote because they get lost, in Florida, people dies because the caves are deep".

I am wondering what the credentials to be a cave diving guide…

I taught I should share that experience.
We had a lot of fun listening to that, but again, it is kind of scary to hear.

Phil.

Yes very scary.
The lesson to learn from this is choose who you dive with carefully.........both buddies and guides.

There are some very good, very professional cave guides working in the area however unfortunately there are also some very bad ones.

There are also guides who are not resident in Mexico but bring groups down on a regular basis.
Some of the worst guiding I have seen has been visiting guides with very large groups of cave divers who seem to care nothing for either their divers safety or conservation of the caves.

Why would anyone want to do a guided cave dive with 6 other divers plus the guide?
It does not sound like much fun to me and the potential for confusion and miscommunication is very high with this number of divers.
The absolute maximum ratio should be 3 to 1 and even then that is too many for some dives.

Many of the fatalities that have happened here have involved large groups of guided cave divers but some guides do not seem to have learned from this.
Either that or they just don't care because they earn more money by taking larger groups.

Ok rant over...........caveat emptor

[Slüdge]

Why would anyone want to do a guided cave dive with 6 other divers plus the guide?

Yes, that's about seven people more than I like to have in a cave. :twisted:

[Phil]

Yes, that's about seven people more than I like to have in a cave. :twisted:

We did a couple of guided dives 5 years ago in Mexico.
At that time, we were 2 + the guide. I dont think that diving with a guide is bad. A guide should be there to facilitate the diving (gas, transport, sites, where to go to see interesting things), but I would never put my life in the hands of a guide. Every certified cave diver should know how to find is way out of a cave, without a guide...

Phil

[newman_diver]

I think it's a good idea to get a guide if you are new to an area. I know a lot of people who have spent more time trying to find mainlines and jumps than they spent enjoying the dives. Guides can also make things logistically simple. My wife and I are heading down to Mexico in April for a few days of cave diving and went with a guide. Eventually I hope to know the area well enough to not need a guide but until then....

As long as you do your research and communicate with potential guides you should end up being satisfied with your decision.

[battles2a5]

I was in the Dominican this past December. We were kitting up to start a dive and we saw some lights emerging from the cave below. The first thing to break the water was a snorkel. Followed by 5 or 6 more. Then came the "cave guide" with an 80 and a 30cf pony bottle. The guide wasn't cave trained, all of the divers were OW, they didn't run a line to the mainline (at least 100 ft in), and they all had one light. They were all completely clueless about what they were doing. I was absolutely dumbfounded. My guide said something to the DM but he was brushed off. I think we all take for granted the quality of available instruction and level of standardization that we have in the states.

[Gary]

Then, at the end, the guide said “You know, that is why you need a guide, you guys are not good enough divers to dive in caves by your own, it is dangerous for you. You should always dive with a guide”.

That's the scary part.

The guide after diving with these guys is basically saying they are incopetent and should never that recieved their cave diving certifications - but he takes them into the caves anyway.

He's either falsely promoting the need for guides or willfully guilty of gross negligence in any of their deaths when/if they occur.

Since some did get lost I'm betting it's "guilty of gross negligence"

and who certified cave divers who can't even be trusted to find their way out of a cave without a guide?

[Adam Korytko]

Was this by any chance at Pet Cemetery?

Unfortunately, anyone can guide ... it is up to the individual cave divers to ensure their safety by finding out in advance who their guide/s will be and what the maximum guide to diver ratio will be.

We recently had a group of 11 cave divers and hired another two guides (one a respected instructor, the other an instructor intern) to ensure a maximum ratio of 3:1, while splitting the groups into different caves each day. Anything less seems to show a total disregard for the safety of the divers and potential damage to the cave.

Qualified guides can make your vacation much more enjoyable, just be careful, there is no strength in numbers.

Dive safely,

[Phil]

Again, I dont want this story to be seen as if I am against guided dives. I think it fulfil the needs of a large number of cave divers going in a new place like in Mexico. I have used guide before. It is my personal choice to go there with my buddy and to dive alone as a group of two.

What I find bad is when I see a large number of divers going into tinny places, messing with the viz and making dammages to the cenote. Not saying when people seems to put their lives into the guide hands.

On the second dive, they follwed us again, and lets say that they didn't want to loose their way. The viz was a mess behind them.

Phil

[Aktun]

On the second dive, they follwed us again, and lets say that they didn't want to loose their way. The viz was a mess behind them.

Phil
:-D

[captain hardhead]

If you are going to the cenotes with your own cave instructor to take your cavern and intro to cave, are you required to also hire a local guide.

[Randy Thornton]

In Mexico, one of the biggest reasons to use a guide is just to find the dang main line. If you haven't been to the cave before, it can sometimes take a long time swimming around to find the line. Additionally, the locals are less likely to break into a guide's vehicle.

[captain hardhead]

In Mexico, one of the biggest reasons to use a guide is just to find the dang main line. If you haven't been to the cave before, it can sometimes take a long time swimming around to find the line. Additionally, the locals are less likely to break into a guide's vehicle.

That does make sense. But do you know if it is required if you are getting lessons with a certified cave instructor.

[Bill Rotella]

If you are going to the cenotes with your own cave instructor to take your cavern and intro to cave, are you required to also hire a local guide.

If your instructor does not know the cenote system that you are diving, then yes hire a guide, and if your instructor does not do this, find another instructor.

[Al]

In Mexico, one of the biggest reasons to use a guide is just to find the dang main line. If you haven't been to the cave before, it can sometimes take a long time swimming around to find the line. Additionally, the locals are less likely to break into a guide's vehicle.

While you're swimming around looking, you're still seeing some pretty cavern and you are learning its layout. An experienced eye can usually spot the routes to the lines. I just consider it to be part of the adventure.

[captain hardhead]

I have read in my books for Cavern and Intro to Cave that you are pretty limited already, such as no gap jumping, etc. You think you should have a guide there to keep an eye on your instructor?

Also, it sounds like some think it is a good idea, but it does not sound like it is mandatory to have an instructor AND a guide.

[Randy Thornton]

That does make sense. But do you know if it is required if you are getting lessons with a certified cave instructor.

I should probably let one of the guys currently living in Mexico answer this, but having lived there years ago, I would say that the number one rule in Mexico is that "there are very few consistently followed rules in Mexico". That is not meant as a criticism of Mexico, just an observation that things are a little more "fluid" in nature down there. I suspect, if you were to ask this question to 10 different people, you would get 10 different answers depending on various factors including if they have any financial interest in one answer or another.

Regards,
Randy

[Al]

Also, it sounds like some think it is a good idea, but it does not sound like it is mandatory to have an instructor AND a guide.

A guide is not mandatory.

[Bill Rotella]

What I am trying to say is that an instructor should not take a student into a system that he or she is not familiar with, no matter where the system is located period.

[mattmexico]

[QUOTE=Phil;72135]

I am wondering what the credentials to be a cave diving guide…

QUOTE]

yo

As the guided Cenote or Cavern diving is somewhat regulatated with rules and guidelines established and to be followed including a guide to diver ratio it had never happend for the cave guiding sector.

Any intro to cave diver or up can grab some cave diving tourist of the streets and drag them by their hair into the cave. For visiting cave divers who have never been here it is somewhat difficult to establish what is a good guide and what is a **** guide.

For the interested cave diver forums such as this one here are a good source to ask other divers what they experienced with various guides.

greetings
Matt

[aainslie]

My one and only time I was in Mexico, I did a bunch of great dives solo with no guide, in systems I'd never been in before. On at least one occasion, an instructor (thanks Patrick!) explained to me exactly how to get to the main lines, and gave me some guidance on distances etc. We also saw some incredibly cool stuff doing visible simple jumps off the mail lines during that trip.

This stuff about how the "locals" make it impossible to dive on your own is pretty exaggerated IMHO.

That said... I hate dealing with corrupt governments and cops who are arguably worse than the criminals they're supposed to protect you against, together with a culture of foreigners being fair game for theft. I'd rather take the safety of Florida (Jeff and all :) ) than Mexico as a result. Trips end up being expensive too thanks to high airfares, car rentals etc. It's a pity, because the dive shops, instructors and caves are great.

[phillip1]

I was in the Dominican this past December. We were kitting up to start a dive and we saw some lights emerging from the cave below. The first thing to break the water was a snorkel. Followed by 5 or 6 more. Then came the "cave guide" with an 80 and a 30cf pony bottle. The guide wasn't cave trained, all of the divers were OW, they didn't run a line to the mainline (at least 100 ft in), and they all had one light. They were all completely clueless about what they were doing. I was absolutely dumbfounded. My guide said something to the DM but he was brushed off. I think we all take for granted the quality of available instruction and level of standardization that we have in the states.

It is a huge problem here (Dominican Republic) many dive shops bring OW divers way to far back in caves, the "guides" have no cave training and absolutely no idea what they are doing, it is just a matter of time before someone here gets killed.
We are about to send out a warning letter to all the island's dive shops and install warning signs in the caves that do not have any.
I do not understand how dive shops can be so unbelievably stupid and irresponsible, I mean OW instructors know about the dangers of overhead diving and the very clear limitations of cavern diving all agencies are crystal clear on that, yet these idiots bring unsuspecting OW clients and go 1000ft back in some caves here with no line, single tanks etc..
I suppose this is happening all over the world.

[human]

It is a huge problem here (Dominican Republic) many dive shops bring OW divers way to far back in caves, the "guides" have no cave training and absolutely no idea what they are doing, it is just a matter of time before someone here gets killed.
We are about to send out a warning letter to all the island's dive shops and install warning signs in the caves that do not have any.
I do not understand how dive shops can be so unbelievably stupid and irresponsible, I mean OW instructors know about the dangers of overhead diving and the very clear limitations of cavern diving all agencies are crystal clear on that, yet these idiots bring unsuspecting OW clients and go 1000ft back in some caves here with no line, single tanks etc..
I suppose this is happening all over the world.

That "don't ask, don't tell" attitude along the "it's all about the money" wins out as usual.........

[phillip1]

That "don't ask, don't tell" attitude along the "it's all about the money" wins out as usual.........

I find it criminal, OW clients are assuming it is safe to sign up for a guided cave dive (in DR or elsewhere) just like they sign up for a dolphin tour or a reef dive, the clients have no idea what is safe or not, they are putting they're trust in the dive shop instructor who then puts them at grave risk and does this knowingly.