Dive Sally Ward

[wingman]

Suppose that you could do a cave dive into Sally Ward (aka Numero Uno). That dive would be a guided staged swim to the balcony and then a circuit around the cube room. Further, the dive requires that you purchase a license to do it. Would you be willing to pay $300 for the license to do the dive?

[OutlawCaver]

Bill

Would this be a "one time use" license?

[wingman]

Bill

Would this be a "one time use" license?

Yes, a one time use.

[pwl4476]

For me $300 is a little steep. I'm more in the $200 range and if I did it I'd want to make sure that it was a fairly long CCR dive. Same goes for the same question about Wakulla.

Paul

[Benthic]

Again, not just 'No'...but 'Hell No!'

For the same reasons I wouldn't do it at Wakulla...

Brian

[Tegg]

Why pay to dive a site that tax money pay for? :smt102

I have a state park pass... that's all that should be needed...

[wingman]

Why pay to dive a site that tax money pay for? :smt102

I have a state park pass... that's all that should be needed...

There are several reasons why especially if your activity imposes additional cost, resource degradation, etc. For example your park pass will get you into florida caverns state park at marianna but you will have to pay an additional fee if you want to be guided through the dry cave. Bill

[Benthic]

There are several reasons why especially if your activity imposes additional cost, resource degradation, etc. For example your park pass will get you into florida caverns state park at marianna but you will have to pay an additional fee if you want to be guided through the dry cave. Bill

My State Park Pass will also let me dive at Emerald Sink, which is on the Wakulla Springs Park property.

Brian

[sdenney]

I agree that my state park pass should be the only fee to dive the site. What resources are needed? An iron ranger, a port-a-pottie and a trash can. Divers can donate lumber for a tank rack or picnic table. And forget the guided thing altogether.

[cwick]

My taxes are going up, the benefits are going down and you want me to pay $300 to do one dive in a cave that I already own:smt081

[amphipod06]

HECK NO!!

Like the previous posters mentioned, I have a State Park pass and do pay my taxes on time.

Is this a bailout of some sort?

Dive safe,

Celia

[guru caver]

You mean there are actually people who haven't dove Sally?!!! I guess if you pay you won't have to muck around in the dark.....;)

[Benthic]

Oh I've dove it. I'm just not into paying $300 to do it again. ;)

Brian

[guru caver]

No kiddin', but those false entrances can really be confusing in the dark....:smt081

[wingman]

My taxes are going up, the benefits are going down and you want me to pay $300 to do one dive in a cave that I already own:smt081

I would hesitate to say own as your property rights are a bit limited...this is willingness to pay not what you actually pay. You most always actually pay an amount less then what you were willing to pay. Have you ever won an ebay auction where you submitted a max willingness to pay and the auction closed for an amount less than that? That's called a consumer surplus and a part of the total benefit you get from the consumption of the good.

[wingman]

Oh I've dove it. I'm just not into paying $300 to do it again. ;)

Brian

Actually for those that have snuck it you could say that the price of the dive was what they had at risk to do it. If captured (there's certainly a positive probability of that) there's a cost (gear confiscation and fines) which is a willingness to pay to do the dive. The expected value of that decision is certainly in the couple of hundred dollar range don't you think?

[amphipod06]

Actually for those that have snuck it you could say that the price of the dive was what they had at risk to do it. If captured (there's certainly a positive probability of that) there's a cost (gear confiscation and fines) which is a willingness to pay to do the dive. The expected value of that decision is certainly in the couple of hundred dollar range don't you think?

Benthic did not sneak it...

Dive safe,

Celia

[wingman]

Benthic did not sneak it...

Dive safe,

Celia

Did not suggest that he did, just commenting that even a sneak dive implies a willingness to pay to do the dive. Bill

[Benthic]

Did not suggest that he did, just commenting that even a sneak dive implies a willingness to pay to do the dive. Bill

Not necessarily. People wouldn't sneak it if they didn't think they could do so without getting caught. In their minds they'll get away with it and are therefore avoiding the price (be it money, red tape, servitude, etc).

Brian

[wingman]

Not necessarily. People wouldn't sneak it if they didn't think they could do so without getting caught. In their minds they'll get away with it and are therefore avoiding the price (be it money, red tape, servitude, etc).

Brian

Decision making in an uncertain environment is certainly interesting and has been the subject of a good bit of reflection. The decision to sneak might well be where the potential sneakers expected benefit exceeds the expected cost. How those expectations get formed is also interesting and should involve examining all aspects of the situation. Clearly, unless there has been a deal worked with law enforcement or the park, the probability of getting caught is not zero.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQeVIJ8e_z8&NR=1

[Kelly Jessop]

Clearly, unless there has been a deal worked with law enforcement or the park, the probability of getting caught is not zero.



I am counting on impound,and public auction as a way that I can get a rebreather for $20.

[swadiver]

Having possibly done this dive many moons ago, it is probably worth the $300. However, i also don't believe that we should have to pay more than a "reasonable" amount to cover only the direct expense to the state that allowing divers would cost. This is public property that "belongs" to all of us.

There is no reason that a system simalar to Emerald access would not work as well for Sally Ward

[amphipod06]

I am counting on impound,and public auction as a way that I can get a rebreather for $20.

HA!

You really think the rest of the divers in the community would really let it go for only $20? Everyone and their third cousin would be trying to do the same.... :-)

Dive safe,

Celia

[JahJahwarrior]

...and this is why I'm sad that UF isn't admitting a graduate class for Econ next fall when I'm going to try to go to get a graduate degree of some sort from them...(I'm not sure if the cave or the discussion about willingness to pay (especially the uncertain environment part) is more interesting to me!!)

[wingman]

...and this is why I'm sad that UF isn't admitting a graduate class for Econ next fall when I'm going to try to go to get a graduate degree of some sort from them...(I'm not sure if the cave or the discussion about willingness to pay (especially the uncertain environment part) is more interesting to me!!)

You should take an environmental economics course. It is difficult to place values on things where there's not a market to establish a price and without price as a signal its hard to establish policy about what level to make available. This is especially true when a good is a public good (what we call non excludable and non rival...you can't be prevented from consuming it and your consumption of it does not reduce the amount available for others to consume...there are, of course, degrees of publicness). Since decisions must be made, a lot of effort has gone into figuring ways to value goods that are not traded on markets....a contingent valuation is one method and it involves asking questions about willingness to pay (not the price that you might actually pay but what you are truly willing to pay...i was willing to pay $1500 for a new tls350 and at dema the price for a stock suit was $989...so i paid the $989 and recieved the suit plus a $511 benefit...called a consumer surplus). Establishing a range (i will be using 5 different prices in my valuation study) of willingness to pays is an important part of the survey research based contingent valuation process...the purpose of the polls was to establish a high end for the set of hypothetical prices...that would be a price most would say no to but a few would say yes to (those with stronger preferences to consume the good). Based on the poll results to date my $300 guess was pretty close. Sorry for the long reply but you sounded interested and maybe this explanation will counter some of the concerns raised by others. Bill

[JahJahwarrior]

I'm going to take a course or two in that topic for my bsba in economics and I'm looking forwards to it. Intermediate macro and micro will be fun but enviro econ will be more fun :D my girlfriend will be in a similar course next semester but muhh more geared to the environment than the economics, she's an environmental sciences major. Long time no see Bill!

[OFG-1]

I'll glady pay you Tuesday for a Uno dive today.............

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/09/13/wimpy.png




OK Bill, what gives?? Did you write a grant for this? What did you name it? "Investigation of the Economic Decisions of Deranged Yet Over Funded Sub Aqueous Spelunkers"

I would rather have a catheter the size of a garden hose.
I would rather have a proctologist nicknamed "Dr. Hook".
I would sooner dive into a swimming pool filled with double edged razor blades than pay$300.00 to make one dive anywhere.

For that kind of money, you should get a dive, a guide, 2 sherpas to carry your gear, and a full body massage with "happy ending".

[kgault]

Based on the poll results to date my $300 guess was pretty close.

I am having a hard time beleiving that the $300 price was close with the poll presently sitting at 75 No to 8 Yes. Your Sadistics must be better than mine ;)

How are you going to encorporate the poll results with a dollar value when there is not a corresponding number to weight the Nos with?

Who will see the final analysis?

Keith

[wingman]

I'll glady pay you Tuesday for a Uno dive today.............


OK Bill, what gives?? Did you write a grant for this? What did you name it? "Investigation of the Economic Decisions of Deranged Yet Over Funded Sub Aqueous Spelunkers"

I would rather have a catheter the size of a garden hose.
I would rather have a proctologist nicknamed "Dr. Hook".
I would sooner dive into a swimming pool filled with double edged razor blades than pay$300.00 to make one dive anywhere.

For that kind of money, you should get a dive, a guide, 2 sherpas to carry your gear, and a full body massage with "happy ending".

<lol> You were close, the actual title is "Willingness to Pay for Positive Increments in a Death Likelihood Function: An Exploration into Irrational Behavior." Now John, if you amortize ALL your expenditures on diving across the dives that you have done, including the opportunity cost of your time (even as you read this now you could be working at burger king earning money with your time instead of spending it on diving) i think you might find the average price you are paying per dive is pretty high.

In all seriousness, all my dives have had a happy ending so far.

[wingman]

I am having a hard time beleiving that the $300 price was close with the poll presently sitting at 75 No to 8 Yes. Your Sadistics must be better than mine ;)

How are you going to encorporate the poll results with a dollar value when there is not a corresponding number to weight the Nos with?

Who will see the final analysis?

Keith

Keith, the poll was just to get an idea of what value points to use in the survey...i was looking for the high end of the value range. The high end is where most say no but a few say yes, 75 no and 8 yes is pretty much that. The low end is where most say yes and a few say no...that is probably the $25 point. The actual prices in the survey will be between those extremes. Once done we are going to publish the results and will be presenting them at meetings (i think i am on the program for the nss/cds meeting and will try to get on at the nacd meeting and perhaps dema in orlando). Thanks for sending your address change! Bill

[fitnessdiver]

I wish I lived closer to cave country but for now I don't. I have to come down there on vacation. And I try to do it on a shoestring budget so that I can get more diving in. When you start talking about $300 for a cave dive, plus park fees, and guide fees (if not included).... that's way out of my price range since I'm already paying all the extras that you have to pay while on vacation...

The reality for me is that it will keep me out of those systems... and if I did start thinking of wanting to dive them... with that kind of price why shouldn't I think of taking a trip to Mexico instead... more bang for my buck when I look at the total trip costs.

just my 2 cents.....

[scububa]

Economics, Behavorial Science, Philosophy...

and I thought this was a dive class :-)

$300 / dive ????

I can think of flying to NC, renting a car, paying for lodging (food I'd need anyway, so not factored)...with no guarantee I'd get to dive (weather)

Then, gas fills, tank rental, boat ride...(with better, but still some marginal, guarantee...weather could change or conditions at site could still be yucky (open water analogy to Jeano cave poofy :-) )

Yeah, I think I have paid $300 for a dive and I haven't even come close to doing something like the Doria. Heck that seems like it could get an order of magnitude higher (oops, now we got Math and Engineering sneaking into this).

When you think of the much higher probability of good conditions for a FL cave, $300 might be the value bet. But, then, I quit fishing when I did the math and realized what I was paying a pound (boat, fuel, insurance, storage, maintance...) and decided Sushi in a nice restaruant with a good bottle of wine was cheaper and I didn't have to get up so early :smt013

[wingman]

Economics, Behavorial Science, Philosophy...

and I thought this was a dive class :-)

$300 / dive ????

I can think of flying to NC, renting a car, paying for lodging (food I'd need anyway, so not factored)...with no guarantee I'd get to dive (weather)

Then, gas fills, tank rental, boat ride...(with better, but still some marginal, guarantee...weather could change or conditions at site could still be yucky (open water analogy to Jeano cave poofy :-) )

Yeah, I think I have paid $300 for a dive and I haven't even come close to doing something like the Doria. Heck that seems like it could get an order of magnitude higher (oops, now we got Math and Engineering sneaking into this).

When you think of the much higher probability of good conditions for a FL cave, $300 might be the value bet. But, then, I quit fishing when I did the math and realized what I was paying a pound (boat, fuel, insurance, storage, maintance...) and decided Sushi in a nice restaruant with a good bottle of wine was cheaper and I didn't have to get up so early :smt013

Fortunately, most don't do the math (i certainly don't although my wife does and i hear about it often). Exactly on the boat dives...the outcome there is much more uncertain. Bill

[jpdiver]

$300 seems steep for one dive. On the other hand, I have paid $1,500.00 for 3 dives on the Andrea Doria but dive boats have costs that State Parks don't. My State Park pass fee already goes to maintenance. Where would all this extra money go?

How much does the WKPP pay to dive it?

[wingman]

$300 seems steep for one dive. On the other hand, I have paid $1,500.00 for 3 dives on the Andrea Doria but dive boats have costs that State Parks don't. My State Park pass fee already goes to maintenance. Where would all this extra money go?

How much does the WKPP pay to dive it?

What you actually pay and what you are willing to pay are two different things. Even though you actually paid $300 a dive for your Doria dives you were probably willing to pay more. It is willingness to pay and not what you actually pay that measures the value of a resource or product. It is interesting how Wendy's uses the concept of consumer surplus(differece bewteen what you are willing to pay and what you actually pay) into this commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8t8kBeNDog

Parks have pretty much all the costs that any other business has.

[jpdiver]

What you actually pay and what you are willing to pay are two different things. Even though you actually paid $300 a dive for your Doria dives you were probably willing to pay more. It is willingness to pay and not what you actually pay that measures the value of a resource or product. It is interesting how Wendy's uses the concept of consumer surplus(differece bewteen what you are willing to pay and what you actually pay) into this commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8t8kBeNDog

Parks have pretty much all the costs that any other business has.

Yes- but how does the park cost go up based on whether or not we dive the cave? They already get money from state taxes and our annual passes.

[wingman]

Yes- but how does the park cost go up based on whether or not we dive the cave? They already get money from state taxes and our annual passes.


This pretty much explains a lot of the issues associated with public sector concerns:


http://www.dep.state.fl.us/parks/planning/parkplans/EdwardBallWakullaSpringsStatePark.pdf

[runawaylobster]

Suppose that you could do a cave dive into Sally Ward (aka Numero Uno). That dive would be a guided staged swim to the balcony and then a circuit around the cube room. Further, the dive requires that you purchase a license to do it. Would you be willing to pay $300 for the license to do the dive?

Well I am sure I have paid $300 for a dive before but let's see... I get a long boat ride, sometimes even a bunk, I get a crew who drags my scooter back in the boat for me, I get a big fill of helium..... sometimes they might even fill it for me....and sometimes I even get food as well... not to mention drinks on the boat...

what is included in the $300 cave dive??

[johnnyrichards]

Why pay $300 for a dive that anybody who knows where the sight is can do at 2:00 am?

JR

[caverkevin]

So many caves, so little time. I'll spend my time and money diving caves that do not cost $300.

[LiteHedded]

Why pay $300 for a dive that anybody who knows where the sight is can do at 2:00 am?

JR

lol

[Tegg]

Your data will be skewed mainly because of the history of the restrictions to dive the sites in the area you chose.

The fact that you want to pile all this data together and show state officials what you think is accurate data is not a good idea for getting access to the locations you desire.

The data may sound good on paper (people will pay $300 to dive a hole in the ground) but when reality comes into play, only a few will pay that price and that price will be a one time payment... Thus within the first 6 months of having the site "open" via this 'license', it will stop generating income.

The real way to open public lands is to be unified and work together to get it open in the same manner we have gotten the other state owned sites opened recently. Persistance and showing that there are a lot of voters and constiuients that desire to have the sites open.

The problem lately with a lot of the sites in that area is that the state has people coming at them from 12 different angles, all with no support numbers behind any of them. Your suggestions would simply be another one added to the pile...

Maybe one day we can get all the cavedivers to work together on one front, the front of getting state owned sites opened to those who pay/vote for those that make the decisions.

[Burke]

So what's the rate for a guided sneak dive? It sounds fun...

[Caver95]

So what's the rate for a guided sneak dive? It sounds fun...

your car provide the gear and gas. Do you want to scooter?

[Slüdge]

So what's the rate for a guided sneak dive?

Including bondsman's fees?

[BobK]

Including bondsman's fees?

If you just pay the bond yourself you get it back later... After the trial.

[JoeyP]

I don't mind a nominal park admission fee - like $5 or $10 but why should I pay a premium to use what already belongs to the tax payers? Why don't they charge $300. to swim at a state beach?

Of course all of this is moot because at the rate the economy is tanking people won't be able to pay the parking fees, let alone $300.

Actually, the notion of the government attempting to profiteer and price gouge from it's control over a natural resource is quite offensive to me as is the fact that state lands and waters are off limits for no reason other than some bureaucrats aversion to work....ie -lets close and then we don't have to deal with it.

[Caver95]

I don't mind a nominal park admission fee - like $5 or $10 but why should I pay a premium to use what already belongs to the tax payers? Why don't they charge $300. to swim at a state beach?

Of course all of this is moot because at the rate the economy is tanking people won't be able to pay the parking fees, let alone $300.

Actually, the notion of the government attempting to profiteer and price gouge from it's control over a natural resource is quite offensive to me as is the fact that state lands and waters are off limits for no reason other than some bureaucrats aversion to work....ie -lets close and then we don't have to deal with it.

I am all for asking the state nicely in court to remove the fence that runs across the Wakulla river.