Weightbelt during SM?

[Swede]

Hello cavedivers…

How many of you are diving with a weightbelt?
The reason I ask is if I would build a new SM rig with opened or covered weights.
Today dive with a backplate system, it works really good… especially when you need a suit tank and a big canister (videolights).
But now I will build a new rig and us the SM wing I made the old rig (I got one harness too but it won’t work with the wing). My question is…
Do you think that it’s necessary to integrate the weights to reduce an entanglement risk or is it safe to use a weight belt?
How are you looking at this at the other side of the pond?:smt102


Cheers from Sweden
Markus

[Me]

Hi Markus,

This was addressed recently in this same forum.

I'll see if I can find the link for you.....

Lori

[Me]

Here it is.... this may help.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9284

[Swede]

Thanks “Me”… I read the thread before… But it don’t really answer the question of using it or not ‘cause of entanglement risk.

So basicly you don’t mind using weightbelt during SM? Is it anyone more that got any thought on this?

[deepairmike]

I have friend that uses a belt in some very tight places and likes it

[atedeschi]

i currently use one, and dont mind it at all.

[Cave Penguin]

I use(d) a separate weight-belt with a standard weight-belt buckle and a snoopy-loop pulled over it to prevent accidental opening.

It was until a few nights ago completely separate from the harness, but i've since integrated weight-belt and harness waist-belt with two triglides on the back and a couple of bungee loops. It is still two separate belts, with two buckles, allowing the weight-belt to be tightened separately (i can get it tighter that way,for some reason).

I did this not because of fear of dropping the belt but to try and stabilise the position of the rear D rings to make clipping tanks on easier. This seems to have worked, with added benefit that the weights cannot fall off, but i've yet to try it in the water. Also working on adding a (removable) wing.

My harness is constantly evolving... :smt003

[FW]

I don't use weights with heavy steel tanks. I use a normal weight belt when using light aluminum tanks. About the only time I use small tanks is in sumps, and having a harness with weights built in, is to heavy to wear through the "dry" part of the cave.

[Swede]

Ok… Thanks for your opinions… For me it’s safe to use a weight belt, but some in the team do think it’s and entanglement risk… I’ll try to put some weights on the harness and some on a belt (drysuit and thick insulation, it’s pretty cold in the water here).
Thanks

Markus

[tj]

If I am using any tank bigger than 85s, I never need weight, but I use the 85s most of the time, so when diving in the ocean or with extra undergarments under my drysuit (ie, and extra sweater), I wear an extra 6 to 8 lbs to make my shallow dives and deco more comfortable. The weight belt is inside my harness so out of the way. Once in a while I'll stick a 4 lb soft weight in my breat pocket of the weezel.. works fine. If I take a steel deco bottle for O2, and can leave it at 30' or more, I don't need any.

[hhansard]

Not a SM expert, just started in late ’07, maybe 150 SM dives total. Hard to get decent cave dives when you are from NJ :)

Always dive dry.

Steel 85s or HP 120s, no weight

AL80s (Mexico) use +2 per side in an H pocket on the body-side of the tank. This can be an entanglement problem. In about 100 Cenote dives, got caught on 2. No real problem to get out of it -- but a problem none the less. The issue on the ALs is controlling the tanks themselves, using a weight belt would not help. The reason for the pocket is that there are 4 different types of AL80s and buoyancy can vary from -1 to +4. I frequently get a mixed-set, so need to adjust the weighting at the dive site. Most I use is +3 per tank. Usually, +1 or +2.

My 2c,

H

[Swede]

...AL80s (Mexico) use +2 per side in an H pocket on the body-side of the tank. This can be an entanglement problem. In about 100 Cenote dives, got caught on 2. No real problem to get out of it -- but a problem none the less. The issue on the ALs is controlling the tanks themselves...

I went to my local tyreshop and asked for some used inner tube for cars. I got them for free and then I cut them up in 4” peaces to cover the weights on my alu tanks. I think this is good way to reduce the entanglement risk on tank weights.


Markus

[NorthWoodsDiver]

I am currently designing and building a weight system for integration with the nomad and armadillo systems which are commercially available so us cold water sidemount divers can carry up to 16 or 18lbs of soft lead in a completely snag free and low profile manner which wont interfere with the tanks or harness as it is. the weight will be easy to add/remove/adjust. I hope to have a prototype made before GLSPS at the end of the month but I am waiting on material right now.

if everything works out and dives ok and there is a demand for it I will try and replicate it at or close to cost for other cold water SM divers but I would expect that to be several months away as right now 30 inches+ of ice are covering the water holes making dives few and far between.

[hhansard]

North Woods,

Would like to see this. I dive in the upper (or is it lower) St Lawrence every year. The temp is about 2 degrees C. Will be spending about 2 months up there doing some u-boat hunting and some video of the Empress, so would be interested in your system. I find that I only need a total of 6lbs with thick underware and CS200.

Any photos of your system?

H

[NorthWoodsDiver]

I am waiting on the ballistic nylon to ship so I have nothing to take pics of yet. everything is in my head or in sketches.

for only 6lbs there may be a better way for you though this would work fine too and would allow you to easily change weight.

I needed a way to carry more lead cause I find myself diving with aluminum cylinders usually and I dont want to rely on the tanks being my only form of ballast. I plan to get some pics up as soon as something is made, shouldn't take long once the material shows up. T

[Bermujan]

I'm just a SM newbie myself, but this is what I fabricated for mounting inside my Nomad harness and it seems to work well for me and is very comfortable.
Roughly 9lbs of lead with six pieces of 1/4" lead plate, 4 bolted in. I found stashing weight in the rig close to the center of lift kept me more stable versus weight hung outboard on the tanks or on a weightbelt low on the hips.
B

[SMB]

I found stashing weight in the rig close to the center of lift kept me more stable versus weight hung outboard on the tanks

Looks good.
Yes the closer your ballast is to the center line of the body the more stable you will be so you have better control and a cleaner cofiguration as well.
It also makes the tanks easier to manipulate without weights on them and should you need or be forced to ditch a tank you are still properly weighted.

[SMB]

I went to my local tyreshop and asked for some used inner tube for cars. I got them for free and then I cut them up in 4” peaces to cover the weights on my alu tanks. I think this is good way to reduce the entanglement risk on tank weights.


Markus

Hi Markus,

Yes your solution will reduce the entanglement hazard but will not eliminate it entirely unless you take the weights off the tanks altogether.
Why dive with an entanglement hazard at all if you do not need to?

While serious the increased risk of entanglement is only one of the issues with putting ballast weights on tanks.
Some other things to consider are:

If you need to or are forced to leave a tank behind or give it to a buddy you will no longer be properly weighted.

Placing weights far out to the sides of your configuration increase lateral turning moments making your rig less stable and harder to control in different orientations.

Manipulating the tanks both on the suface and u/w is harder with weights attached to them.

Manipulating the tanks u/w will change the position of the weight and therefore your trim particularly if you are swinging 1 or both tanks in front of you to pass a restriction.

Depending on where you place the weights they will either tend to push the tanks further out from the sides of the body or stick out to the sides of the tanks increasing your profile and the potential for A faming or ratcheting yourself into a tight area particularly when backing up.

[Swede]

Hi Markus,

Yes your solution will reduce the entanglement hazard but will not eliminate it entirely unless you take the weights off the tanks altogether.
Why dive with an entanglement hazard at all if you do not need to?

While serious the increased risk of entanglement is only one of the issues with putting ballast weights on tanks.
Some other things to consider are:

If you need to or are forced to leave a tank behind or give it to a buddy you will no longer be properly weighted.

Placing weights far out to the sides of your configuration increase lateral turning moments making your rig less stable and harder to control in different orientations.

Manipulating the tanks both on the suface and u/w is harder with weights attached to them.

Manipulating the tanks u/w will change the position of the weight and therefore your trim particularly if you are swinging 1 or both tanks in front of you to pass a restriction.

Depending on where you place the weights they will either tend to push the tanks further out from the sides of the body or stick out to the sides of the tanks increasing your profile and the potential for A faming or ratcheting yourself into a tight area particularly when backing up.

Interesting point of view… so you don’t think that steel tanks are good for SM then? ’cause that would make the same problem if you hade to dump a tank or hand it off. I dive with two type of tanks… a 6,5 liter (~40s) alu tanks with a 1 kg (~2 pounds)(pointing inside) weight on or a 12 liter steel tanks (~85s-90s). The weight on the alu is just to keep the tank down when it goes light, not for ballast. At the moment I don’t dive in caves there you need to unhook your tanks… but the problems may come up if I need to dump a tank. We made a risk analyses over the cave we are exploring now, and for me I don’t se an area or problem where I will need to dump a tank, if a second diver need gas I will donate this with a longhose. Your type of dive with scooter and extra tanks is miles in front of me…
If you dive only with alu tanks and an extra set of D-rings in front (as yours harness or?) to hook the tanks to when they go light, then you can place all weight on your self. But that will be a lot of weights if you dive with drysuit and thick insulation.


Thanks for your input Steve…

Markus

[SMB]

Interesting point of view… so you don’t think that steel tanks are good for SM then? ’cause that would make the same problem if you hade to dump a tank or hand it off. I dive with two type of tanks… a 6,5 liter (~40s) alu tanks with a 1 kg (~2 pounds)(pointing inside) weight on or a 12 liter steel tanks (~85s-90s). The weight on the alu is just to keep the tank down when it goes light, not for ballast. At the moment I don’t dive in caves there you need to unhook your tanks… but the problems may come up if I need to dump a tank. We made a risk analyses over the cave we are exploring now, and for me I don’t se an area or problem where I will need to dump a tank, if a second diver need gas I will donate this with a longhose. Your type of dive with scooter and extra tanks is miles in front of me…
If you dive only with alu tanks and an extra set of D-rings in front (as yours harness or?) to hook the tanks to when they go light, then you can place all weight on your self. But that will be a lot of weights if you dive with drysuit and thick insulation.


Thanks for your input Steve…

Markus

Hi Markus,
Actually I think steel tanks can make great sm tanks.
As with everything environment and the type of dive will dictate the ideal tank to use and availability may be a factor as well.
All things considered LP 85's (232Bar 12L) are probably the best all round sm tank on the market.

I use alu 80's here in Mexico as that is what is available and it makes a pretty good sm tank in this environment considering the shallow nature of the caves and that I dive in a wetsuit.
Obviously you have to compensate for the buoyancy swing from negative (-1.5lbs) to positive (+4.5lbs) with an alu 80 as you breathe the gas from it
(always assume a worst case scenario - exiting with nearly empty tanks).
That is easily done by ballasting with this in mind and also by placing an extra rear attachment point further to the front of your harness to clip to as the tanks get light thus keeping them in horizontal plane with the body throughout the dive.

For me the real advantage of diving sm config is the ability to manipulate my gear and especially my tanks u/w.
I do not want to be struggling with buoyancy and trim while doing this so it does not matter whether I dive with steels or allys ballast is on me not the tanks and I do not consider the tanks to be a part of my required ballast.
When using more negative tanks I just need more lift from my bcd to compensate for a heavier equipment load.

I dived a lot in the Uk (4 - 10 Celcius water temps) in a drysuit usually with either 7L or 12L sm tanks and never had an issue ballasting myself in this manner.

In my opinion a sm diver should be weighted so that they are neutral and properly trimmed whatever exposure protection or tanks they are using.
It is actually easier to do this diving dry than wet since you do not have to worry about buoyancy changes due to suit compression in a constant volume suit (drysuit).
All you need is enough lift from your bcd to compensate for the weight of your tanks and the gas in them.
Again this is easier with Steel tanks than Aly's since they stay slightly negative or are neutral even when empty so you do not have to take into account the buoyancy swing from negative to positive.

Regards
Steve

[Swede]

Hi Markus,
Actually I think steel tanks can make great sm tanks.
As with everything environment and the type of dive will dictate the ideal tank to use and availability may be a factor as well.
All things considered LP 85's (232Bar 12L) are probably the best all round sm tank on the market.

I use alu 80's here in Mexico as that is what is available and it makes a pretty good sm tank in this environment considering the shallow nature of the caves and that I dive in a wetsuit.
Obviously you have to compensate for the buoyancy swing from negative (-1.5lbs) to positive (+4.5lbs) with an alu 80 as you breathe the gas from it
(always assume a worst case scenario - exiting with nearly empty tanks).
That is easily done by ballasting with this in mind and also by placing an extra rear attachment point further to the front of your harness to clip to as the tanks get light thus keeping them in horizontal plane with the body throughout the dive.

For me the real advantage of diving sm config is the ability to manipulate my gear and especially my tanks u/w.
I do not want to be struggling with buoyancy and trim while doing this so it does not matter whether I dive with steels or allys ballast is on me not the tanks and I do not consider the tanks to be a part of my required ballast.
When using more negative tanks I just need more lift from my bcd to compensate for a heavier equipment load.

I dived a lot in the Uk (4 - 10 Celcius water temps) in a drysuit usually with either 7L or 12L sm tanks and never had an issue ballasting myself in this manner.

In my opinion a sm diver should be weighted so that they are neutral and properly trimmed whatever exposure protection or tanks they are using.
It is actually easier to do this diving dry than wet since you do not have to worry about buoyancy changes due to suit compression in a constant volume suit (drysuit).
All you need is enough lift from your bcd to compensate for the weight of your tanks and the gas in them.
Again this is easier with Steel tanks than Aly's since they stay slightly negative or are neutral even when empty so you do not have to take into account the buoyancy swing from negative to positive.

Regards
Steve

Thanks Steve for you reply, I really appreciate your answers.

I do dive with this tanks LP 85’s (232 12L), I really like the position in water and for the first time I can stand completely still in water without moving fins. This will give me good advantage during filming. The other tanks are for short and shallow dives.
For the new harness I’m building I’ll try to set up some kind of integrated wieghts and also my donut wing I sew together. I haven’t done some many SM dives yet and this is the first season with 12L tanks, but the test dives are looking good.

I took a look again at your video on youtube, I couldn’t spot any open weight, are all your ballast integrated in the razor harness?


cheers
/Markus

[aainslie]

Thanks Steve for you reply, I really appreciate your answers.

I do dive with this tanks LP 85’s (232 12L), I really like the position in water and for the first time I can stand completely still in water without moving fins. This will give me good advantage during filming. The other tanks are for short and shallow dives.
For the new harness I’m building I’ll try to set up some kind of integrated wieghts and also my donut wing I sew together. I haven’t done some many SM dives yet and this is the first season with 12L tanks, but the test dives are looking good.

I took a look again at your video on youtube, I couldn’t spot any open weight, are all your ballast integrated in the razor harness?


cheers
/Markus

I think Steve eats lead :) He carried no weight on him when I took a class with him, he's neutral in the water in a wetsuit without any ballast anywhere. Sort of irritating for us mere mortals...

[SMB]

I took a look again at your video on youtube, I couldn’t spot any open weight, are all your ballast integrated in the razor harness?
cheers
/Markus

I was not using any weight.
Unless I have a brand new suit I do not need any.
I dive a full length 7mm wetsuit 5/7mm hooded vest and 7mm wetsuit boots.
I change all my neoprene every 6 months or so due to the amount and type of diving I do as it gets compressed and looses buoyancy and thermal protection and starts to look like a Tetley tea bag - 100's of perforations :yawinkle:
I tend to find that my new suits are very buoyant until I have a few dives on them.
Actually I just got a new suit a few weeks ago which I had to ballast with 6lbs initially (two 3lbs weights threaded onto the Razor Harness webbing at the waist).
The weight is gone already and I already feel a little colder :(