Reach when SPGs are pointing straight ahead [Archive] - Cave Diver's Forum

hudson

01-25-2009, 09:35 PM

Hi,

I'm slowly coming to terms with my sidemount setup, but one hurdle that remains is access to my waist gear (mainly cutting tools) and D-rings and my thigh pocket. Right now they are inaccessible without breaking trim and of course that's a problem. My upper arm is blocked by the SPGs on 6" hoses pointing straight ahead and I can't push the tank down/away enough to clear.. I can bend the SPGs out of the way, but it's not quite sufficient.

I can see this problem go away (haven't tested yet) if the SPGs were also pointing towards the bottom of the tank on 9" hoses, but there are obviously people diving my current configuration, so how do they do it?

More information:

I'm 5'8", and positioning the HP100 tanks, I've tried to have them close to my body and the valves literally in the armpits - so they wouldn't stick out front and the tanks would be streamlined behind my arms. That meant fairly high camband placement on the tanks and I think they already as high as possible (about halfway up.) I'm using the Nomad bungee system where you stretch the bungee over the valve and that pretty much locks the top of the tanks in place. So I don't think the tanks are too forward, or I don't see how I can push them further back. I also don't want them to hang like stages (which would also resolve the issue)

01-25-2009, 10:28 PM

I have my SPGs pointing in towards my chest. I used to have them point up but I noticed that when I was in really tight stuff, they would dig through the bottom. Changing the angle has solved that problem.

I'm having trouble picturing the problem with your tank positioning. It sounds like they should be where they need to be. You have any pics of you underwater?

GeorgiaDoc

01-25-2009, 11:01 PM

I had the same problems at first. I am 5'10" and my reach just isn't very long. If I moved my tanks back I was way out of trim but if I moved them up i couldn't reach my waist D-ring, crotch strap D-ring etc.
We put 2lb weights on each shoulder strap and this allowed me to move the tanks back enough to reach the essentials. The weights are threaded in and the top shoulder D-ring actually sits on top of the weight.
Hope this helps.
Mark

aainslie

01-25-2009, 11:34 PM

I run my 6" hoses back along the tank as on a stage. It's dead easy to bend them to read when you need to, and stops you from digging ugly grooves in the clay when swimming with them pointing forward. It's incredible how bad this problem is, you see long SPG tracks in lots of sidemount caves. Run them backwards and avoid one more source of damage.

cavediver256

01-26-2009, 12:24 AM

As much as I hate to,:yawinkle: I gotta agree with Andrew on this one....they tuck away nice and are easy to access when you need them..

Cave Penguin

01-26-2009, 04:06 AM

I have my SPGs on standard HP hoses, pointing down the tank and then turned back up to the neck and secured with a couple of snoopy loops. Another snoopy larks-footed around the neck hold the gauge in close, and it can be pulled forward or sideways to see.

It might also help if you drop the tank band a bit? It might give you more flexibility in the arms.

01-26-2009, 05:52 AM

I have my SPGs on standard HP hoses, pointing down the tank and then turned back up to the neck and secured with a couple of snoopy loops. Another snoopy larks-footed around the neck hold the gauge in close, and it can be pulled forward or sideways to see.
I used to do that with mine, but the hoses don't last very long being bent all the time.

Now I use 6" hoses, and just let them stay straight towards the bottom of the tank, like Andrew and TJ. They don't get in the way, don't catch on the line, don't dig in the floor, and are easy to pull out to read.

sskasser

01-26-2009, 08:15 AM

skip

01-26-2009, 08:43 AM

ditto ditto on the 6" hoses down, although some like 9" hoses cause it's easier to bend them up and look at them. I keep everything in my pockets just like backmount. To reach into pockets I use my elbow to first push the tank back and with my upper arm holding it out of the way I can reach my pockets. But I use shorter tanks (95's). Tried the long skinny 120's, but they were too long and in the way. And it took a few dives to figure out the sweet spot where the tank valve/reg would pass under my arm and back with a push from my elbow.

I have thought of putting a dive rite double zipper pocket across my chest. Somehow attached to the shoulder straps (one side attached to one strap, other side of pocket attached to other strap) and thus have stuff (spare mask, wet notes, etc.) in a flat chest pocket. Not sure it that would work though.

-skip

SuPrBuGmAn

01-26-2009, 09:50 AM

The problem with using standard valves with the SPGs pointing out is they sag and end up dragging, catching everything, etc.

I use 6" hoses pointed straight out, the difference is I use them on those Genesis 45* angled valves, so they are actually pointing straight out(perpendicular with my body) once the sagging is taken into account. They do NOT drag, just isn't gonna happen unless I'm in a VERY head down position.

To reach anything on your waist, sweep your arm midbody and lift the tank up.

aainslie

01-26-2009, 10:32 AM

As much as I hate to,:yawinkle: I gotta agree with Andrew on this one....

One day TJ, you'll realize that I'm ALWAYS right.

:)

(Actually truth be told, I'm a little shocked that so many people are agreeing with me. Almost makes me want to go back and change my answer...)

SMB

01-26-2009, 10:43 AM

+1 on using 6" hoses down the side of the tank. It's easy enough to bend them up to see when needed, without the risk of digging a trench or snagging a line.

Of course, I still have problems "gracefully" reaching anything in my pockets. Add a stage and forget it! I keep most everything I need except wet notes attached to my rig and easily reachable without having to go to the pockets. I'd love to hear others' solutions on that one!

Shirley

Hi Shirley,
Thigh / waist pockets can be a PIA to use with sm even worse when you add stages.
Plus they tend to push your sm tanks further out to the sides from the body increasing your already large lateral profile, increasing the potential for A framing and increasing instability due to larger lateral turning moments.
Put everything in a pouch (Dive Rite 2 zipper pouch works well) and clip it off to your butt d ring using a double ender.
When you want anything reach back with either hand over sm tanks and unclip and bring pouch to the front where you can see what you are doing and access everything much easier.
The pouch will find its own position and you will hardly notice it behind you.
Make sure that the clip and attachment point are long enough so that the pouch can drop below your butt or between your legs to pass very small areas.
Of course you can always unclip it and move the position to another d ring temporarily if required.
Simple, easy to use and flexible.

cavediver256

01-26-2009, 11:25 AM

One day TJ, you'll realize that I'm ALWAYS right.

:)

Maybe one day Andrew.....maybe one day...:yawinkle:

sskasser

01-26-2009, 11:49 AM

Hi Shirley,
Thigh / waist pockets can be a PIA to use with sm even worse when you add stages.
Plus they tend to push your sm tanks further out to the sides from the body increasing your already large lateral profile, increasing the potential for A framing and increasing instability due to larger lateral turning moments.
Put everything in a pouch (Dive Rite 2 zipper pouch works well) and clip it off to your butt d ring using a double ender.
When you want anything reach back with either hand over sm tanks and unclip and bring pouch to the front where you can see what you are doing and access everything much easier.
The pouch will find its own position and you will hardly notice it behind you.
Make sure that the clip and attachment point are long enough so that the pouch can drop below your butt or between your legs to pass very small areas.
Of course you can always unclip it and move the position to another d ring temporarily if required.
Simple, easy to use and flexible.

Great idea, thanks Steve! I'll be trying this tip out this weekend. It's the simplest things sometimes!

I have a great waistpouch (thanks Forrest) that will work perfectly for this. I haven't been using it because I didn't have the available real estate on my waist strap.

01-26-2009, 12:01 PM

I have a great waistpouch (thanks Forrest) that will work perfectly for this. I haven't been using it because I didn't have the available real estate on my waist strap.
I have the same problem with my new harness. I am just afraid of geting it caught on something back there. I go in some pretty tight places.

atedeschi

01-26-2009, 02:21 PM

SMB

01-26-2009, 05:00 PM

I have the same problem with my new harness. I am just afraid of geting it caught on something back there. I go in some pretty tight places.

Hi Forrest,
I have used this config for no-mounting in very small cave with no problems to date.
I have had to remove butt mounted reels and even my helmet to pass some extreme restrictions but not the pouch although I could easily if required.

SMB

01-26-2009, 05:19 PM

ok here is my thing, and i could be wrong, but if you are worried about the bag in the back getting caught you are probably in a place that is tight and if using your pockets causes you to get out of trim it wouldnt matter at this point cause your are already on the floor or ceiling. Now if you are not in a tight spot, why not the pockets, cause you can just get a little higher to the ceiling since u dnt have doubles not an issue and just bring your knees in alittle and reach your pockets. Also I dnt know what your carrying in you pockets but for me in caves i only go to them for backups and emergiences and at that point i dnt care if i am out trim i want to handle the issue and exit. just my two cents.

I have not had a problem with it getting caught up when diving in small cave.
My definition of small cave is when your back, stomach and both sides of your body are in contact with the cave and you definitely do not have any tanks attached to you :)

Like you most of the stuff in my pouch is back up and emergency equipment so I don't need it all the time.
The exception to this is during exploration dives as I keep my survey slates in it so will be almost sure to use during these dives.

I disagree about the importance of maintaining trim during an emergency or problem.
Loose control of your buoyancy, trim or positional awareness and whatever problem you are experiencing is likely to get a lot worse.
If you have to struggle to access any piece of equipment it causes stress.
This is not good at any time and can lead to other problems.
If you are already experiency a problem and then you add more stress to it because you are struggling with your equipment the situation can go from bad to worse very quickly.
Equipment should be easy to access and deploy and if it isnt you need to think about changing your config.

skip

01-26-2009, 06:58 PM

aainslie

01-26-2009, 07:03 PM

let me get this straight. you hang a diverite pouch from your butt d-ring using a double-ender? so when you walk on land, it hangs down, maybe waving around as you walk, like a beaver tail? no funny intended, just making sure I understand correctly.

-skip

Isn't that what everyone's reels look like right now? it's just adding one more pseudo-testes to the mix...

01-26-2009, 07:26 PM

Hi Forrest,
I have used this config for no-mounting in very small cave with no problems to date.
I have had to remove butt mounted reels and even my helmet to pass some extreme restrictions but not the pouch although I could easily if required.
OK, I will try it.

hudson

01-26-2009, 08:27 PM

Great discussion, thanks guys. Like the pouch idea... I can use the thigh-pocket for the SMB, don't mind breaking trim momentarily to get that.

I'm having trouble picturing the problem with your tank positioning. It sounds like they should be where they need to be. You have any pics of you underwater?

Not with this setup unfortunately, last ones I took were while using the choker system with the bungees clipped to the tank neck, which I stopped using because it makes the tank sag a lot: the snapbolt on the tank neck slides all the way along the bungee to the chest D-ring.

I
We put 2lb weights on each shoulder strap and this allowed me to move the tanks back enough to reach the essentials.

Makes sense. I don't mind moving them further back and trimming with shoulder weights, just not sure if I can.. if I move the band any higher or shorten the string on the camband snapbolt it makes clipping to the bars really difficult.. I'll fiddle with it.

It might also help if you drop the tank band a bit? It might give you more flexibility in the arms.

Won't that move the tank forward?

To reach anything on your waist, sweep your arm midbody and lift the tank up.

Yeah... I guess part of the problem is my arm flexibility is also limited as I'm packing lots of underwear (I'm in Missouri) in a crushed neoprene suit. My SPGs don't seem to droop, but then I'm still practicing in OW.

atedeschi

01-26-2009, 08:27 PM

I have not had a problem with it getting caught up when diving in small cave.
My definition of small cave is when your back, stomach and both sides of your body are in contact with the cave and you definitely do not have any tanks attached to you :)

Like you most of the stuff in my pouch is back up and emergency equipment so I don't need it all the time.
The exception to this is during exploration dives as I keep my survey slates in it so will be almost sure to use during these dives.

I disagree about the importance of maintaining trim during an emergency or problem.
Loose control of your buoyancy, trim or positional awareness and whatever problem you are experiencing is likely to get a lot worse.
If you have to struggle to access any piece of equipment it causes stress.
This is not good at any time and can lead to other problems.
If you are already experiency a problem and then you add more stress to it because you are struggling with your equipment the situation can go from bad to worse very quickly.
Equipment should be easy to access and deploy and if it isnt you need to think about changing your config.

i agree, and when i meant out of trim i meant a slight change, just to get to your pocket. But if you can't get to them easily then there is no point of having gear there, cause like you said emergencey + stress makes it worse.

SMB

01-26-2009, 10:50 PM

let me get this straight. you hang a diverite pouch from your butt d-ring using a double-ender? so when you walk on land, it hangs down, maybe waving around as you walk, like a beaver tail? no funny intended, just making sure I understand correctly.

-skip

Hi Skip,
Yes exactly as you describe.
Of course you can always clip it off somewhere else for the walk to the water if you feel silly with the tail :yawinkle:

SMB

01-26-2009, 11:03 PM

Yeah... I guess part of the problem is my arm flexibility is also limited as I'm packing lots of underwear (I'm in Missouri) in a crushed neoprene suit. My SPGs don't seem to droop, but then I'm still practicing in OW.

If you need to reach your waist in sm config the easiest way is to go through the tanks and your body rather than around the outside of them.
Move your hand back and over your sm tank to about mid body position then slide you hand and forearm between the tank and your body.
You can push the tank further out to the side to give your upper arm more room to get through by using your elbow like a chickin wing.

SMB

01-26-2009, 11:05 PM

If you need to reach your waist in sm config the easiest way is to go through the tanks and your body rather than around the outside of them.
Move your hand back and over your sm tank to about mid body position then slide you hand and forearm between the tank and your body.
You can push the tank further out to the side to give your upper arm more room to get through by using your elbow like a chickin wing.

I meant to say through the gap between your tanks and your body

Diverlee

01-27-2009, 05:13 AM

If you need to reach your waist in sm config the easiest way is to go through the tanks and your body rather than around the outside of them.
Move your hand back and over your sm tank to about mid body position then slide you hand and forearm between the tank and your body.
You can push the tank further out to the side to give your upper arm more room to get through by using your elbow like a chickin wing.

This what I have always done and it works well for me.

skip

01-27-2009, 08:19 AM

i've never cared for the pockets on my drysuit. bulky, poking out, just have never seemed part of the "hydrodynmaic zen" we all claim to be searching for. I've found it oxymoronic to hear cave divers discussing the friction caused by wrinkles in the shell suits versus the more streamlined crushed foam and neoprene suits, while totally ignoring those lumpy pockets.

I've carried a dive rite 2-zipper pouch on my single open water set up (wetsuit diving, no pockets), and have positioned it variously on backmount trying to find a good place for it. Now I see how it can be used for all three (bm, sm, ow). Thanks!

Now, should I use a razor knife or scissors to remove those d..n drysuit pockets?

-skip

icestac

01-27-2009, 08:29 AM

Now, should I use a razor knife or scissors to remove those d..n drysuit pockets?

No need to remove them, just cover them with crushed neoprene duct tape :)

~Jeff

Cave Penguin

01-27-2009, 08:34 AM

Won't that move the tank forward?

It would, but it seemed to work for me. I started with the bands higher and then dropped them, changing nothing else (bungees same length) and it felt a lot neater, i think it might have been over-stretching in the bungees when the bands were higher, thus pulling on arms/shoulders? For info, my tanks are clipped of to D rings on the waist belt, not handles on a butt-plate, that might make a difference to how my tanks sit.

Slüdge

01-27-2009, 08:57 AM

Hear, hear, Skip! I have 2-zipper pockets on my OW BC and my doubles harness. None on my drysuit.

hudson

01-27-2009, 10:35 AM

Thanks Steve, makes sense.

I think it might have been over-stretching in the bungees when the bands were higher, thus pulling on arms/shoulders?

Hmm, worth a try, I might have gone overboard myself.

Hear, hear, Skip! I have 2-zipper pockets on my OW BC and my doubles harness. None on my drysuit.

Is this it?

http://northeastscubasupply.com/store/pockets/dive-rite-pockets/two-zip-pocket/prod_658.html

icestac

01-27-2009, 10:54 AM

Is this it?

http://northeastscubasupply.com/store/pockets/dive-rite-pockets/two-zip-pocket/prod_658.html

That is the older style. The new style is http://northeastscubasupply.com/store/pockets/dive-rite-pockets/bellows-horizontal-pocket-with-daisy-chain/prod_656.html

Not sure if makes a whole lot of difference for this application.

~Jeff

sskasser

02-24-2009, 06:19 PM

Hi Shirley,
Thigh / waist pockets can be a PIA to use with sm even worse when you add stages.
Plus they tend to push your sm tanks further out to the sides from the body increasing your already large lateral profile, increasing the potential for A framing and increasing instability due to larger lateral turning moments.
Put everything in a pouch (Dive Rite 2 zipper pouch works well) and clip it off to your butt d ring using a double ender.
When you want anything reach back with either hand over sm tanks and unclip and bring pouch to the front where you can see what you are doing and access everything much easier.
The pouch will find its own position and you will hardly notice it behind you.
Make sure that the clip and attachment point are long enough so that the pouch can drop below your butt or between your legs to pass very small areas.
Of course you can always unclip it and move the position to another d ring temporarily if required.
Simple, easy to use and flexible.

I tried this last weekend and it worked great. Thanks for the idea!

Just watch for pick-pockets :smt081