Improving equipment!!

[Neil32]

Hi! I am a product designer from the uk and am at present embarking on a project where i will be adressing the ergonomics of diving equipment, inparticular BCD' s and cylinders. Do any of you feel your present equipment hinders you in anyway when in or out of the water; weight, size, safety, position, would you like to carry less etc. If any of you do have a problem please post a reply and tell me what it is and even what you would like to change if you have any thoughts! Hopefully together we can produce better equipment that will improve the sport for all! Thanks

[REastman]

Hi! I am a product designer from the uk and am at present embarking on a project where i will be adressing the ergonomics of diving equipment, inparticular BCD' s and cylinders. Do any of you feel your present equipment hinders you in anyway when in or out of the water; weight, size, safety, position, would you like to carry less etc. If any of you do have a problem please post a reply and tell me what it is and even what you would like to change if you have any thoughts! Hopefully together we can produce better equipment that will improve the sport for all! Thanks

I would love to have tanks that carry 2000 cu.ft. a piece (open circuit, no rebreather), weigh a constant -20 lbs. underwater and can be easily sidemounted. 100w HID lights that can burn for 20 hours, and still be mounted on your waist would be nice as well.

Seriously, this question probably needs to be reworded. I don't think you will find one cave diver out there that would not like to be able to carry smaller lighter tanks, fewer stage bottles, and still have the necessary air and other things such as lights to do the diving they do.

[Deep-Thief]

Me, I'll just take the gills and some eyes that focus underwater. :twisted:

[REastman]

Yeah....that's what we really need...That little device they used in Star War's episode one, where they could breathe underwater with no tanks.

[John L.]

How about a one piece unit thats lightweight, and has the air and bouyancy all incorporated in one unit. With redundancy in bouyancy, and impervious to punctures from sharp objects, and contain a large air capacity. Strap it on and go. Even a built in ballast system.

[Widiver_Paul]

I think that's already been done, I remember seeing some hokey thing (marketed for noobies) that was only good to 20 feet or something. It was like a BC with a mini-tank, reg and hoses coming out of a pocket or something. Great for the pool.

Personally i'd like to see a better designed sidemount BC that doesn't hang to your kneecaps and can handle stage bottles. Or even better yet a "kit" to turn something like a backplate system (how about a Halcyon 45lb. explorer?) into a sidemount system. Now that would be da bomb. And with the number of divers going to sidemount, it would probably sell pretty well. What was it that Bernie Chowdhury said about sales of tech stuff, that tech divers account for a third of the entire gross sales of scuba equipment? You're smart in asking the tech and cave divers first what they're looking for...

[sdalcher]

PM sent

[Tegg]

Personally i'd like to see a better designed sidemount BC that doesn't hang to your kneecaps and can handle stage bottles. Or even better yet a "kit" to turn something like a backplate system (how about a Halcyon 45lb. explorer?) into a sidemount system. Now that would be da bomb. And with the number of divers going to sidemount, it would probably sell pretty well. What was it that Bernie Chowdhury said about sales of tech stuff, that tech divers account for a third of the entire gross sales of scuba equipment? You're smart in asking the tech and cave divers first what they're looking for...

The Armadillo seems like a good rig. I have several friends that dive it. Personally I made my own rig, but used the Armadillo as a "guide".

My rig handles my heavy 108s + 3 fully pumped stages and a deco bottle...

Are you having issues with the current sidemount system you use?

[jammer]

Well since you can improve equipment can you make my air integrated single gas computer into a multi gas computer please so I will not have to spend $1,000 on a nitek He?

[ARY]

Personally i'd like to see a better designed sidemount BC that doesn't hang to your kneecaps and can handle stage bottles. Or even better yet a "kit" to turn something like a backplate system (how about a Halcyon 45lb. explorer?) into a sidemount system.

What is wrong with BR's butt plate and standard backplate-wing configuration, seems to be pretty robust? It would be interesting though to see easy demountable in a water set of doubles (with independent small BC|weights ??) that you can use as a travel gas module. Once you arrived to the point of interest - drop stage module and do your wormhole. After return - lock it back on your back and exit. Dreaming...... And it should be integrated with propulsion device too :-)

[Widiver_Paul]

Are you having issues with the current sidemount system you use?

That's not the point. Yes, I like it. But I don't think making them one at a time out of used Rangers is practical to mass produce. Many of us have a backplate system. It should be a simple matter of some nylon and a little hardware to make your BM into a SM rig, and allow you to have streamlining on the front and the familiar fit of your harness. No?

[sdenney]

I want air neutral tanks (steel 108s) that are negatively buoyant in the water.

[BillGraham]

Personally i'd like to see a better designed sidemount BC that doesn't hang to your kneecaps and can handle stage bottles. Or even better yet a "kit" to turn something like a backplate system (how about a Halcyon 45lb. explorer?) into a sidemount system.

Hey Paul!

I think the backplate has to go in any event, and if you figure out how to do this, I've got one collecting dust in my basement too.

[Tegg]

Are you having issues with the current sidemount system you use?

That's not the point. Yes, I like it. But I don't think making them one at a time out of used Rangers is practical to mass produce. Many of us have a backplate system. It should be a simple matter of some nylon and a little hardware to make your BM into a SM rig, and allow you to have streamlining on the front and the familiar fit of your harness. No?

That is what DiveRite offered with their transpack sidemount rig. Just add some hardware and remove the backplate, now you have a sidemount rig.

Rumor has it that the Armadillo might be re-released in a slightly modified version with more "suggestions" added in. Keep an eye out. ;)

BTW, have you seen the Armadillo in person? It's pretty streamlined in the front and has a feel of just a harness. :)

[rchrds]

Are you having issues with the current sidemount system you use?

That's not the point. Yes, I like it. But I don't think making them one at a time out of used Rangers is practical to mass produce. Many of us have a backplate system. It should be a simple matter of some nylon and a little hardware to make your BM into a SM rig, and allow you to have streamlining on the front and the familiar fit of your harness. No?

That is what DiveRite offered with their transpack sidemount rig. Just add some hardware and remove the backplate, now you have a sidemount rig.

Rumor has it that the Armadillo might be re-released in a slightly modified version with more "suggestions" added in. Keep an eye out. ;)

BTW, have you seen the Armadillo in person? It's pretty streamlined in the front and has a feel of just a harness. :)

Yea- but the Armadillo has a major problem- I hadnt realized it until I saw a gentleman with one at JB- The lower attachment points are not adjustable. There was no way to raise the height of the tanks on the body (i.e. move them further towards the back, so they dont hang so low.) If you are the size of Brett or Curt, it isint an issue, but for us twiggy guys it wont cut it- There is no way to make a strap short enough on the bottle for the tank to not hang too low. (You could move the attachment on the tank further down the tank, but then the necks ride up too far.) Perhaps this will be fixed in a new version.

J

[Caver95]

if you really wanted to you could move that bar, on the armadillo, around. it wouldn't be hard its just screwed in.

[Angie Reim]

A friend of mine converted a backplate to a sidemount harness. The issue that had the experienced sidemount folks worried was that there are some sidemount access only sites that require flexibilty in the back to get in and out. They were worried that he could get jammed up by a backplate in a squeeze. As my dives are going to tighter and tighter sites, I have to agree that it's a legitimate concern!

Police yourself if you convert a backplate to sidemount. You don't want to figure it out that your rig is wrong by getting wedged into some rock. :oops:

[Tegg]

Yea- but the Armadillo has a major problem- I hadnt realized it until I saw a gentleman with one at JB- The lower attachment points are not adjustable. There was no way to raise the height of the tanks on the body (i.e. move them further towards the back, so they dont hang so low.) If you are the size of Brett or Curt, it isint an issue, but for us twiggy guys it wont cut it- There is no way to make a strap short enough on the bottle for the tank to not hang too low. (You could move the attachment on the tank further down the tank, but then the necks ride up too far.) Perhaps this will be fixed in a new version.

J

This issue is addressed in the new version... :wink:

[Widiver_Paul]

Personally i'd like to see a better designed sidemount BC that doesn't hang to your kneecaps and can handle stage bottles. Or even better yet a "kit" to turn something like a backplate system (how about a Halcyon 45lb. explorer?) into a sidemount system.

Hey Paul!

I think the backplate has to go in any event, and if you figure out how to do this, I've got one collecting dust in my basement too.

Someone mentioned the existing systems out there which fall a little short for reasons mentioned, and I also don't like the whole transpac idea with all the plastic clips, etc. One should be able to take something simple and apply a simple solution to make it sidemount. Sure, you can buy a whole new kit just for SM, but that means more gear you need to drag around. Not that I don't like my retrofit rig - I love it - but it would be nice to have the weight and balance you're already familar with in the backplate - which ends up being about the weight I find myself adding to my SM rig when my tanks are running light - and it would probably be nice to have that familar balance when doing tank removal..

I know there must be a way to take a large piece of cordura (some people I know could really use Kevlar!) and sandwich it over the wing with a custom alumnium plate the size of a BP with an extra 4" at the botom and "ears" with attachment points for SM tanks. The cordura would keep the wing from being it's normal wing-y self and pull it down and streamlined. This could be clipped or bungied to chest rings, the innertube or bungy for the tank neck could be fit under or over the cordura shell. It could be workable also to use a poly plate just to keep the cordura in place and attach to the core BP one of the addon buttplate for SM that are being used like the one my "builder" put on my rig. Then the user could have adjustability of the height on the tank strap. I'm going to work on this one myself in the basement if I get a chance methinks....

If someone offered a kit like this for say, $199, how many of you would buy one?

[FW]

I know there must be a way to take a large piece of cordura and sandwich it over the wing with a custom alumnium plate the size of a BP with an extra 4" at the botom and "ears" with attachment points for SM tanks. The cordura would keep the wing from being it's normal wing-y self and pull it down and streamlined. This could be clipped or bungied to chest rings, the innertube or bungy for the tank neck could be fit under or over the cordura shell. I'm going to work on this one myself in the basement if I get a chance methinks....

That might be ok for springs that you can walk up to, but any extra bulky, or inflexible material is a pain, if the water is a couple of miles underground.

For a truly simple system, check out:

www.sump4.com/sidemount

[Widiver_Paul]

It's funny that you posted that as I was just pondering the neccessity of the buoyancy aspect of a sidemount system. But then again there are divers out there (Billy, you're one of them!) using sidemount on charter boats that I was thinking of- and also for someone like an instructor that needs to bounce back and forth between back and side. I know i'd rather have one harness that does it all. The transpac comes pretty close to me, it's nice and all, but i'm sure there's going to be plenty of DIR people out there with their explorer systems that will be looking for a good solution to equip for the new GUE sidemount course (gasp!) i've heard rumored. Folks at the organization will probably read this and do what they usually do with the rest of their product line (......).

[crazyduck]

I know there must be a way to take a large piece of cordura (some people I know could really use Kevlar!) and sandwich it over the wing with a custom alumnium plate the size of a BP with an extra 4" at the botom and "ears" with attachment points for SM tanks. The cordura would keep the wing from being it's normal wing-y self and pull it down and streamlined. This could be clipped or bungied to chest rings, the innertube or bungy for the tank neck could be fit under or over the cordura shell. It could be workable also to use a poly plate just to keep the cordura in place and attach to the core BP one of the addon buttplate for SM that are being used like the one my "builder" put on my rig. Then the user could have adjustability of the height on the tank strap. I'm going to work on this one myself in the basement if I get a chance methinks....

If someone offered a kit like this for say, $199, how many of you would buy one?

Paul,
Sign me up! This is something that I have been banging around with for sometime. I have a few ideas, and maybe a solution or two. I would be interested in working together on this.

Regards, Andrew

[DeWayne]

Are you having issues with the current sidemount system you use?

That's not the point. Yes, I like it. But I don't think making them one at a time out of used Rangers is practical to mass produce. Many of us have a backplate system. It should be a simple matter of some nylon and a little hardware to make your BM into a SM rig, and allow you to have streamlining on the front and the familiar fit of your harness. No?

That is what DiveRite offered with their transpack sidemount rig. Just add some hardware and remove the backplate, now you have a sidemount rig.

Rumor has it that the Armadillo might be re-released in a slightly modified version with more "suggestions" added in. Keep an eye out. ;)

BTW, have you seen the Armadillo in person? It's pretty streamlined in the front and has a feel of just a harness. :)

Yea- but the Armadillo has a major problem- I hadnt realized it until I saw a gentleman with one at JB- The lower attachment points are not adjustable. There was no way to raise the height of the tanks on the body (i.e. move them further towards the back, so they dont hang so low.) If you are the size of Brett or Curt, it isint an issue, but for us twiggy guys it wont cut it- There is no way to make a strap short enough on the bottle for the tank to not hang too low. (You could move the attachment on the tank further down the tank, but then the necks ride up too far.) Perhaps this will be fixed in a new version.

J

You just need to start eating more corn bread and greens

[NitroxWarrior]

How about a manifold sheild that isnt a peice of crap.
I dont want to shut my gas of on the ceiling, but I dont want my guidline taggled inbetween the manifold and sheild.

[Howie]

How about making a valve that turns in the correct direction to prevent rolloffs for both tanks. It doesn't seem to complicated to me to reverse the workings of the valve. I'm really surprised that rolloff's still need to be discussed. Somebody should have done that a long time ago.

Howie

[DeWayne]

How about making a valve that turns in the correct direction to prevent rolloffs for both tanks. It doesn't seem to complicated to me to reverse the workings of the valve. I'm really surprised that rolloff's still need to be discussed. Somebody should have done that a long time ago.

Howie

That idea has been discussed at great lengths and I even believe that it has been tried in the past. The problem arises when a panicked diver has need to shut his valve down and cannot remember which way to turn it. It is far easier to get into a good habit of constantly checking your valves and ensuring that they are open, rather than applying a bandaid to the problem and risking a potential disaster. Short cuts are not always the safest route to follow you know :roll:

[BillGraham]

As far as making the tanks hang higher or lower when you're in horizontal position goes, you can make them ride higher by tightening up the innertube/bungee and playing with rotating the hoseclamp/camband on the tanks. Of course tightening the bungee makes it even more likely you're going to get your thumb stuck in there when you're gearing up :lol:

[NitroxWarrior]

The reverse turn valve sounds like a bad idea, what if you got your tanks backwards. you could pass out before you get your air on, like that guy that fell into little jenny with his air off when nobody was watching.

[Caver95]

How about making a valve that turns in the correct direction to prevent rolloffs for both tanks. It doesn't seem to complicated to me to reverse the workings of the valve. I'm really surprised that rolloff's still need to be discussed. Somebody should have done that a long time ago.

Howie
try stayinf off the ceiling and that should work.

[crazyduck]

Jeff Bozanic did an article on Manifolds interesting read.

If you can’t reach your valves then it does not matter which way they turn.

As a Divemaster I once stepped off a training dock with my air off; no air in my wing, and wearing over twenty pounds of lead. In that instant I called myself many names, it was a very humbling experience. :roll:

Andrew

[NitroxWarrior]

"As a Divemaster I once stepped off a training dock with my air off; no air in my wing, and wearing over twenty pounds of lead. In that instant I called myself many names, it was a very humbling experience."

I bet all 20 pounds of that lead are on the bottom, eh? :wink:

[crazyduck]

I bet all 20 pounds of that lead are on the bottom, eh? :wink:

I was wearing a Zeagle BC; and did not want to pull "the cord." :roll:

I was that damn mad and determined that I swam to the surface and then grabbed the dock. The surface Dm was quite surprised at my sudden apperance and request to turn on my air.

[crazyduck]

Dive computer for Ow divers that runs for twenty dives and then locks down.

You take it back to the dive store and turn it in for a rebate, or pay a second amount to unlock some of the goodies. Kind of like the VR3 process.
More training and experience the more you can unlock.

I have talked to many OW instructors and they love the idea, but getting any training agency and dive computer manufacture to agree is impossible when they show up with lawyers. Not to mention the Dive Computer have mentioned that they were afraid of loosing market share- Yeah right.

Here’s the best part the cost should be $100.00 to the new diver. Rebate should be $20 and the key activation is what the market "would bare."

Returned computer could be put back into the dive shop program.

Andrew

[NitroxWarrior]

it would be on the market for a month before the internet would be liittered with guides to hacking it.

[crazyduck]

it would be on the market for a month before the internet would be liittered with guides to hacking it.

How does VR3/ VR2 combat this problem?

[NitroxWarrior]

I dunno, chech the internet for hacking guides. i'm sure many ppl have done it...

[Tegg]

Actually, you'll find that with tech dive items "hacking" will be less common. The reason is that not enough of a "gain" takes place for the hacker.

One hacks software/hardware for the challenge and the notarity. If no one uses the hacked item, why hack it?

You most likely won't find any hacks for the VRX computers. If so, I would be very surprised.

[NitroxWarrior]

Their would be a "gain" in hacking a computer you have to pay to get updated.

I still beleive all you need is a good kenetic watch(like a seiko) and a schedual on the back of your slate, so I dont think a real fancy computer is completely necesary...