To wannabe and new cave divers

[ltb7733]

in light of the recent tragedy, i offer what i hope will be some help in forming the mindset of those who would like to pursue this sport and those who are in training or recently completed thier training. I have been an active diver since 1975, a commerical diver with 5 years of hardhat shallow water salvage(with a two year degree which included diving at least 10 different helmets, mixed gas operations, hyperbaric operations and i am currently in the field of hyperbaric medicine for the last 12 years, and have been teaching scuba since 2001) with that said, i approached my cave training as if i knew ABOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT DIVING.
Cave diving is a aspect of diving completely different to what we think diving is or could be.
i can recall my heartbeat being in the redzone on more than one occaision during my cave class and this is from someone who has been in a few close calls over a 34 year love affair with blowing bubbles and who has 6 thick dive log books sitting a shelf at home.

my dive buddy john and i took time to dive several dives after each stage of classes. so our traing spanned two years or more. we went slow, were not distance orientated or on any quest to log conquests too soon. whats too soon? thats up to you. i suggest covering the same distance many time before going farther, reguardless of having too much air left to turn the dive.

Since being full cave certified 3yrs ago, we color in the parts of cave systems we have seen with majic markers on the related maps, we plan where we want to go, calculated times of estimated travel and air consumption. We dont push limits and have called dives early JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE FELT LIKE IT.

if you get grief from your dive buddys because you have too much air left or any other type of grief, drop that person from your buddy list pronto.

Realize now that cave diving will require a sizable amount of time and money to be comitted to this endevour. Understand what this means: thousands of dollars in gear,( i personally dive with TWO COMPUTORS, 5 lights: one HID, 2 SL6s, and 2 mini Q40s. On one dive not so long ago i had my HID FAIL, MY BACK UP SL6 FAIL, AND FINISHED THE DIVE WITH THE 3RD PRIMARY) and alot of time, hotel and food and gas bills.

We have been planing to do dark water tunnel in the peacock system for quite some time now. Our typical approach to this dive consists of: buying the dvd to familarize ourselves with section of cave, and discussing plans after multiple viewings. Checking out the entrance and exits at both ends, talking to other cave divers who have done this. We talked to MANY DIVERS and got lots of information, some left out by other divers. Not all divers will remember important points.

i offer this post in hopes that some may find this informative on the journey they are about to make, and we all hope all of our journeys will be long and filled with fond memories. This does not happen by accident. It takes good friends with similar desires, money and time to have this kind of fun. And fun it is, as well as rewarding.

In closing, i will share a motto i tell all my students:

MOTHER OCEAN WILL FIND OUT WHAT YOU DONT KNOW.

This applies to caves or any other underwater activity.

safe diving to all lance

[Gary]

Thanks Lance. Great post and good advice.

I get the impression that cave diving certifications have become part of a standard series of diver conquests these days. A lot of people these days seem to think if they've been diving more then a year or two they are coming into cave diving with a wealth of background experience and after a year or two of cave diving they have cleared the danger peroid.

We did a survey (maybe 7 years ago? can't find it in the archives) on this list that showed the average cave diver in our survey had 7 years of open water experience before getting cavern certified. I think the danger peroid they used to propose for new cave divers was about the first 100 dives a couple years ago it was the first 300 dives.

People are getting into cave diving with ever less experience and ever greater expectations of their capabilities. More and cheaper (and better quality) gear and more impressive dives earlier.


[And not exactly related but anyone who hasn't seen the background on the recent deaths at Waynes World should probably read Mike's post over on The Deco Stop: http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=394055&postcount=165 ]

[DogDiver]

Great post Lance. It took me two years to get my Full Cave card. And that with 36 years of wreck diving in the Great Lakes and being a NAUI Instructor. Man....I just can't stress going slow....those "zero to hero" classes are not for me....Ken

There are Bold Divers and Old Divers, but there are No Old/Bold Divers.....

Condolances to all friends and of course family, we all share thier grief.....

[bob1577]

Great post lance, I hope your information is taken on board by budding cave divers. I have been cave diving now for some years in all different systems different parts of the world. Here in Ireland vis is about 5 feet at best. Not like that 100 feet plus in some florida caves. But If everyone took on board that each cave can be totally different from each other even the same cave on different days and the challenges are never the same. If a respect for what you doing and that a cave is only a place for the well trained then maybe we could save a few more lifes.

Safe diving to all.

[Fox_Cousteau]

in light of the recent tragedy, i offer what i hope will be some help in forming the mindset of those who would like to pursue this sport and those who are in training or recently completed thier training. I have been an active diver since 1975, a commerical diver with 5 years of hardhat shallow water salvage(with a two year degree which included diving at least 10 different helmets, mixed gas operations, hyperbaric operations and i am currently in the field of hyperbaric medicine for the last 12 years, and have been teaching scuba since 2001) with that said, i approached my cave training as if i knew ABOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT DIVING.
Cave diving is a aspect of diving completely different to what we think diving is or could be.
i can recall my heartbeat being in the redzone on more than one occaision during my cave class and this is from someone who has been in a few close calls over a 34 year love affair with blowing bubbles and who has 6 thick dive log books sitting a shelf at home.

my dive buddy john and i took time to dive several dives after each stage of classes. so our traing spanned two years or more. we went slow, were not distance orientated or on any quest to log conquests too soon. whats too soon? thats up to you. i suggest covering the same distance many time before going farther, reguardless of having too much air left to turn the dive.

Since being full cave certified 3yrs ago, we color in the parts of cave systems we have seen with majic markers on the related maps, we plan where we want to go, calculated times of estimated travel and air consumption. We dont push limits and have called dives early JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE FELT LIKE IT.

if you get grief from your dive buddys because you have too much air left or any other type of grief, drop that person from your buddy list pronto.

Realize now that cave diving will require a sizable amount of time and money to be comitted to this endevour. Understand what this means: thousands of dollars in gear,( i personally dive with TWO COMPUTORS, 5 lights: one HID, 2 SL6s, and 2 mini Q40s. On one dive not so long ago i had my HID FAIL, MY BACK UP SL6 FAIL, AND FINISHED THE DIVE WITH THE 3RD PRIMARY) and alot of time, hotel and food and gas bills.

We have been planing to do dark water tunnel in the peacock system for quite some time now. Our typical approach to this dive consists of: buying the dvd to familarize ourselves with section of cave, and discussing plans after multiple viewings. Checking out the entrance and exits at both ends, talking to other cave divers who have done this. We talked to MANY DIVERS and got lots of information, some left out by other divers. Not all divers will remember important points.

i offer this post in hopes that some may find this informative on the journey they are about to make, and we all hope all of our journeys will be long and filled with fond memories. This does not happen by accident. It takes good friends with similar desires, money and time to have this kind of fun. And fun it is, as well as rewarding.

In closing, i will share a motto i tell all my students:

MOTHER OCEAN WILL FIND OUT WHAT YOU DONT KNOW.

This applies to caves or any other underwater activity.

safe diving to all lance

thanks for a well worded and great perspective on dive training.

[Serota]

Perhaps the Apprentice level of cave training should become mandatory, something like the student must complete X number of dives with an experienced, full cave certified diver before progressing to full cave training. These dives would, of course, be within the limitations of the Apprentice level and would tend to assure that the Apprentice diver completes several less complex dives, while practicing skills before attempting more complex dives and would have the oversight and assistance of the more experienced diver.

Comments?

[MengTze]

I think we should accept that there will always be people who dive beyond their means, do things that are not smart in light of their experience, training and equipment usage.

There are many divers who through the training programs on offer fare well and excel by experience built as a result.

We should shield ourselves to try to change working practices by means of managing for the exceptions. These exceptions are just that, exceptions and will crop up regardless of how the training programs change..........

[OFG-1]

To wannabe and New cave divers..............

DONT DO IT...... You will spend a ton of money, a lot of time, get bit by all sorts of flying and crawling insects, develop a close relationship with snakes and alligators, sink up to your glottis in swamp mud, pee on yourself, have to dig your friends car out of a rutted sandy road, and hang around with some unsavory people, some old with long beards and some that share a drysuit (and cooties) with Sarah Palin.

Find another hobby. Try gardening, bicyling, cat shaving, bathe the homeless, chase younger women, buy a old wooden boat, or worse, a fabric covered airplane. Try motorcycling, visit all 50 states, take pictures of bears, become a nudist, put fig leaves on all the naked paintings in your state, open a topless bar, run for political oiffice.......

Remember, there is only wet rocks and mud in those caves, spooky looking white crawfish, and a few slimey eels. The rumors about the hidden pots of gold are not true I tell you, there is none, and you cant find it........

[Gary]

I think we should accept that there will always be people who dive beyond their means, do things that are not smart in light of their experience, training and equipment usage.

Yes. I agree completely.

[guru caver]

Perhaps the Apprentice level of cave training should become mandatory, something like the student must complete X number of dives with an experienced, full cave certified diver before progressing to full cave training. These dives would, of course, be within the limitations of the Apprentice level and would tend to assure that the Apprentice diver completes several less complex dives, while practicing skills before attempting more complex dives and would have the oversight and assistance of the more experienced diver.

Comments?The more rules you make....the more rules they break!

[skip]

the current training is fine. we are not seeing untrained divers, or those who are unaware of training, getting into trouble or dying in caves. Lately it's been the ones going beyond their training (knowing full well they are violating their level of training) and those fully trained (who should know better). requiring more training won't change that. a required full year of apprentice while adding more dives with a buddy with full cave training kind of sounds like the buddy is taking on the role of instructor. mandatory mentor? doubtful that would work. and what kind of liablity would that entail?

the current training is fine; people just have to pay attention to it. and that's something that's really difficult to teach.

-skip

[Serota]

I didn't say anything about a "full year of apprentice", but suggested a certain number of documented dives at that level - I'm not sure what the number would be. I also don't think that diving with a more experienced buddy makes the buddy an instructor. Hopefully, we all mentor each other from time to time. Basically, I feel that gaining some experience through observation and participation at the apprentice level would make for safer divers at the full cave level be it mandatory or not.


requiring more training won't change that. a required full year of apprentice while adding more dives with a buddy with full cave training kind of sounds like the buddy is taking on the role of instructor. mandatory mentor? doubtful that would work. and what kind of liablity would that entail?

the current training is fine; people just have to pay attention to it. and that's something that's really difficult to teach.

-skip

[Jay]

Interesting thought. I mean the 'cert' is called apprentice, makes you think there should be some kind of 'Apprenticeship' doesn't it?

[MengTze]

In my book an apprentice is in learning with a master. Usually for a prolonged time. In cave diving, when we pass the Intro stage, we are all masters.... n'est pas?

[allen]

Serota's suggestion of doing a certain number of dives at the apprentice level before taking the full cave course seems like a good one. However, implementing it would require making apprentice certification permanent. Some divers might then find that one jump is all they ever want to do and elect to stay at the apprentice level. How would certifying agencies feel about that?

[Line Squirrel]

May not be a bad idea (mandatory time/dives between cert lvl's).

That's not to say some can't do it in seven days. I was certified wreck pen using all the cave techniques & doubles before I came down and I still struggled through the classes. Cave training is a very humbling experience to be sure.

Seems now, it's some sort of a right of passage or just a chevron to put on your sleeve for a lot of divers, to get their cave ticket. A lot of them, we never see after class...probably a good thing.

Just thinking out loud, I wonder how many students barely make it through Intro (just an example) and are given the "OK" to move forward because all the pieces are in place? What I mean by that is everybody is "here now". Flight's are booked, vacation time has been scheduled as well as time with the instructor with everybody just assuming they were going to do well every step of the way. Now they find themselves struggling and probably not quite up to par for the next phase but everybody wants to move forward because of the..."well, were all here and I don't want to wait until next year to finish" syndrome.

Trust me, I've personaly heard this used more than once around the popular dives sites as justification to "move forward" and shame on the instructors that buy into it.

If it were mandatory that there was some time/dives required between each phase of cave training the appropriate time would be scheduled...for that ONE class. There would be no push to press on just because.

I'm not saying it's a solution, just some thoughts...

[BabyDuck]

well, mike, you're well poised to hear such stuff.

it *is* a shame that instructors would buy into it. if someone's not coming back until next year (assuming they don't live in the yucatan), they sure aren't going to be any better then (no real incentive to practice), and they'll have a full card.

i dunno. maybe extend apprentice to 18 months and require a number of dives (maybe flexible, at instructor's discretion, like one person needs 10 and another 20) to be logged and signed? it doesn't need to be too onerous to hopefully encourage practice before moving on.

[Line Squirrel]

if someone's not coming back until next year (assuming they don't live in the yucatan), they sure aren't going to be any better then (no real incentive to practice), and they'll have a full card.


Not necessarily.

You can go back home and practice running a reel, buoyancy and trim (buoyancy and trim are TWO SEPERATE SKILLS PEOPLE).

I believe these three skills are the ones that are causing most of the issues everybody is complaining about and they can be practiced in O/W.

The inland lakes are a great place. Try swimming 3 or 4 feet off the bottom of those mucky lakes, look behind you, is it clear or did you stir the bottom up (not you Duck)

It's clear? Getting a little cocky? Now try it 1 foot off the bottom <G>

[BabyDuck]

i'm totally agreeing you *can* practice, i just think if you already have a full cave card that your incentive to practice may be less.

and i look back a lot to see if i'm stirring the stuff! :D be seeing you soon, mike.

[inkdiver]

As a fairly new cave diver, I'd like to share a few observations. I moved fairly quickly through the process and have some thoughts.

First off, according to the NACD, Apprentice is a training level only and NOT a certification. I believe it is the same for NSS-CDS, although it is not specifically noted that it is a training level only, and not a certification. NSS-CDS does indicate that Apprentice is also time limited. This is in response to some of the above where Apprentice is referred to as a certification.

Here is my progression. I took my cavern class in January 08. I was very fortunate to have a good dive buddy right off the bat, and we logged about 40-50 cavern dives over the course of the next 3 months. We dove pretty much every weekend, often Saturday and Sunday.

I got my doubles about 6 weeks before my Intro class and logged about 20-25 dives in them before Intro started. I took my Intro class in doubles with Rick Murcar. As Rick can teach both NACD and TDI, I received an Intro rating from both. TDI allows for doubles at Intro, NACD did with a provisional letter (this was April '08 before the Intro with Doubles course was implemented). For those of you who know Rick, you know he is proud to be a hard ass (he is also one hell of a great guy). I am forever grateful to Rick for the intense training he provided. Rick is known to "not pass" students on their first attempt. (I prefer not to say Fail, as he will work with the student as much as needed to get them to the appropriate level to pass). The standard is minimum 4 dives over 2 days. We did 8 dives over 2 days plus 1 VERY Full day of classroom and land drills. Well above the standard. Rick stressed that more than anything else, he wanted us to become THINKING cave divers. That message is always with me. After completing the training, I learned from others that Rick's class was significantly more challenging then classes some of my friends took. Rick had us do swims with only one fin, he had us swim our doubles up from the bottom of Little Devil's with no inflation to show us what a challenge it was, but also some skills for how you can do it. Some of our drills in the cave were a combination of 4 or more things going wrong at once. And there were LOTS of drills. Overall, I feel it was very thorough.

After Intro, I dove every weekend for the next 3 months, all Intro dives, and had completed 51 Intro dives before I took my Cave Diver training. I know, I know, there will be plenty of people who will say that is not enough. My thought is this, 51 dives occurring every weekend over 3 months is a lot more concentrated than people who come to FL, get their Intro training and then come down for a week or two per year (or even three weeks) for 3-5 years. I was never more than 6 days away from my last Intro dive. Things were always fresh, and I got to practice skills every week.

In July of this year, I took my Cave Diver training with Bert Wilcher. Bert has been cave diving for over 30 years and has excellent credentials. He is also another great guy. I did not take the Apprentice course and then later the Cave Diver course, I did the 4 day Cave diver course, which is, according to the NACD, the path they strongly support and encourage. The standard is 8 dives over 4 days. We did classroom work before the diving trip and then 15 dives over 5 days. Again, well above the bare minimum. Bert taught me a lot of the finesse skills of cave diving. Working on getting smoother and smoother, strong emphasis on situational awareness, and communication, etc. Had I not had such an intense Intro class with Rick, and followed it up with dives every weekend, I'm sure that I would not have fared well with Bert.

Since becoming a certified Cave Diver through the NACD, I have completed 53 post certification dives diving pretty much every weekend. As the dives get longer, the number of dives get's shorter (used to be able to get in 4 Intro dives in a day, now 2-3 full dives is the max for the day). I'm hoping to maintain this path, and also am looking forward to a week of cave diving in Mexico in March with Connie LoRe. I've been diving with people far more experienced than me and people just out of Intro/Basic class. I try to learn something new from everyone I dive with. There is ALWAYS something new to learn.

I've also tried to get involved in the community. I am a member of both the NACD and NSS-CDS. At the recent NACD 40th Anniversary Seminar, I donated some of my cave photos for raffle and also spent the day selling raffle tickets. (I'm glad Debra Green asked us to help out). I love hearing about the "olden days" the evolution of cave diving, and of the various explorations people are doing all over the world. I hope to be able to become a diver with the IUCRR after I have the appropriate experience. I think that becoming involved in the community is important as it will expose you to many different divers, viewpoints, and experiences.

None of this is to promote my awesomeness (although I am a pretty big deal....just kidding). It is just to point out that not everyone follows the same path. There will be plenty of people who will disagree with the path I have taken, but that is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I feel confident that neither Rick nor Bert would have signed off on my training if they did not believe I had the appropriate skill set and attitude to continue. Also, I feel that this path is not for everyone. Some will want to take it much slower, some faster. I really feel that there is a lot that goes into that decision and then each person needs to make it by consulting with more experienced divers and a number of instructors.

As far as instructors passing people just because they are there, this is definitely not always the case. I personally know of more than once occasion where an instructor has asked a student who came from a distance to come back one and sometimes even more times to finish before they would sign off. I'm not saying the "easy pass" doesn't happen, but you also need to look at the other side of the coin, where the pass is NEVER a given.

My advice would be to get training, and learn everything you can. Make sure you have an instructor who won't just sign a card for you. Talk to potential instructors..LOTS. You'll know when you find the right one. Once you have completed a level of training, dive as much as possible, as the skills can't be reinforced if you never actually use them.

Think Think Think!!!!

And be safe!!

Don

[Line Squirrel]

As far as instructors passing people just because they are there, this is definitely not always the case.
Don

Of course, I never said or hinted that it was. In fact I don't think it happens all that much but it does happen and shouldn't happen....ever.

Look - the overwhelming majority of cave instructors are awesome but there are a few that aren't and I wonder how the hell they got past the instructor trainer.

[inkdiver]

Of course, I never said or hinted that it was. In fact I don't think it happens all that much but it does happen and shouldn't happen....ever.

Look - the overwhelming majority of cave instructors are awesome but there are a few that aren't and I wonder how the hell they got past the instructor trainer.

I agree with you 100%.

[dshuman]

Maybe cave diving certs need a requirement for continuing education classes or routine evaluations? No one thinks twice about having to get their tanks serviced. Maybe every year or two, your skills should be evaluated and your cert renewed. By a different instructor. Not a full blown class, but a check out dive.

It would get everyone in the habit of practicing their skills, provide incentive for an instructor not to sign off on a student without the skills since another instructor will be evaluating said student down the road, and give at least some assurance that the cert is backed up by the ability.

I am sort of surprised this system doesn't exist considering the potential revenue stream.

Dave

[Squirrel Girl]

Just thinking out loud, I wonder how many students barely make it through Intro (just an example) and are given the "OK" to move forward because all the pieces are in place? What I mean by that is everybody is "here now". Flight's are booked, vacation time has been scheduled as well as time with the instructor with everybody just assuming they were going to do well every step of the way. Now they find themselves struggling and probably not quite up to par for the next phase but everybody wants to move forward because of the..."well, were all here and I don't want to wait until next year to finish" syndrome.

That's easy for you to say, living in Florida. Some of us live a very long way from caves, and it is a concern. Now I think we *all* will agree, someone ought not be certified/advanced/whatever if they haven't met the requirements. Bad, bad, bad.

But I consider myself fairly safe. I have turned many dives just because it seemed the time, even though everything was going well and I could have gone just a little bit farther. I seem to have fairly good judgement.

So I don't think it makes a lot of sense to put in a bunch more requirements/restrictions/etc to make a large/diverse group accommodate a few people who used poor judgement and pushed their limits.

I think education is a much better way to enforce the fact that people who push things too fast have DIED. You could be one of them. Maybe we should make an easy-to-access webpage with dates and short descriptions of tragedies. It could be linkable to in-depth descriptions. I know there's place here on CDF where there are incidents, but I don't think it's user friendly enough or quite what I have in mind.

[Squirrel Girl]

I am sort of surprised this system doesn't exist considering the potential revenue stream.
I think there's way too much of this revenue stream business as it is. It turns me off, and I almost prefer to thumb my nose at the racket they've got going.

I'm lucky to have friends who are giants in the cave diving community, that for some reason, put up with me. I do everything I can to learn from them. Probably not everyone is as fortunate as I. But this money business is a real turnoff.

[OFG-1]

I'm lucky to have friends who are giants in the cave diving community, that for some reason, put up with me. .


Giants? I've seen some pretty big guys, like Fishback and Faircloth, but how can a giant get into a cave to begin with? What do they do at the lips? Can they get through the rabbit holeat Madison? Do any of these people live in a valley with a vegetable farm? Are they jolly? Aren't you afraid of getting stepped on?

[Squirrel Girl]

Giants? I've seen some pretty big guys, like Fishback and Faircloth, but how can a giant get into a cave to begin with? What do they do at the lips? Can they get through the rabbit holeat Madison? Do any of these people live in a valley with a vegetable farm? Are they jolly? Aren't you afraid of getting stepped on?

I'd explain "giant" reputation, not "giant" stature, but I wouldn't want to stomp on your fun!
http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/biggrin.gif

[FW]

... but how can a giant get into a cave to begin with? What do they do at the lips? Can they get through the rabbit hole at Madison?
Sure they can :roll:

[Line Squirrel]

That's easy for you to say, living in Florida. Some of us live a very long way from caves, and it is a concern.

So the further away someone lives from N FL the more slack they should be cut?

If they "just barely" make it through one phase they shouldn't be allowed to continue onto the next just because they are in town and live a long ways away. If they have "extra" time on that particular trip because they aren't good enought to progress onto the next phase, then use the spare time to practice. I'm assuming they are taking cave training (especially if wanting to go through to full) that they plan on coming back ANYWAY. Let them finish up then.

Remember, I said that as far as I'm aware, it's not common practice but it DOES happen and it shouldn't.

Just FYI. I moved here from Michigan. I used to drive (most of the time solo) down here four, sometimes five times per year. Starting in October thru March (approx every 6 weeks). 1038 miles one way from my front door in Milford, MI to Luraville, FL

[Squirrel Girl]

So the furthur away someone lives from N FL the more slack they should be cut?
I clearly stated that substandard performance should not acceptable.

What I am suggesting is that unnecessary requirements not be put in the way of everyone.

I don't think that when rules are crafted that they be made in such a way to include outliers. If you're a 3 sigma diver, the rules shouldn't be crafted around you. And that is +3 sigma or -3 sigma. Because someone is a reckless maniac (general statement, not directed at anyone in particular), or someone is a monomaniacal cave diver (general description, again), the rules shouldn't be crafted around that diver.

What is reasonable for aspiring cave divers to be required to do? What is necessary for them to be safe under normal cave diving circumstances (I mean in the sense that all cave diving training plans for out of light, etc. etc)

[Slüdge]

I'm assuming they are taking cave training (especially if wanting to go through to full) that they plan on coming back ANYWAY. Let them finish up then.

Mike, you just don't get it. I guess I'm going to have to explain the merit badge mentality to you again.

[Line Squirrel]

SG - Fair enough :yawinkle:

Russell - LOL

[Squirrel Girl]

SG - Fair enough :yawinkle:

http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/kiss.gif

[smaclean]

I think that the summary of the ideas here are
1. Mandatory dives between certifications
2. Peer review or performance re-evaluations for instructors
3. Expiring or some review for certified divers for their current level of training
4. Some type of more stringent evaluations to ensure current instructors are adhering to standards.

These are all great ideas. What everyone should think about though is that there already is an agency that does all of these things. I am not affiliated with GUE whatsoever, nor do I have any of their certs. I only bring this up because I want you to look at what they do and ask if that is the direction you want to go or are there diffrent options. I have my own views of training and run my courses to reflect that. Just food for thought

[willardj]

I think that the summary of the ideas here are
1. Mandatory dives between certifications
2. Peer review or performance re-evaluations for instructors
3. Expiring or some review for certified divers for their current level of training
4. Some type of more stringent evaluations to ensure current instructors are adhering to standards.


1. Is good somewhere between 20-30 dives between classes.
2. A performance checksheet for every student turned in at the end of class that has to be turned in to the organization.
3. I don't like the expiring cert levels. There is so much to see at each level that there's know reason to rush through them. With a 1 1/2yr for Basic and a 1 yr for App. that is not that much time for those that don't live close. There are some people that would like to stay at Basic or App. for quite a while.
4. A good thought.

I'm still new to this as well. A yr at Cavern 34 dives and a yr at Basic. 30+ dives. I thought this was the best way to do it.

[tomhauburn]

First off thank you for your service to our country.

That's sort of hitting below the belt or maybe just above it depending on how the belt is worn! As a group we tend to be a bit older and some. myself included. not in as good of shape as we could be. I have been working on mine. Its a good point.





I would also like to add that even though training and experience is important a healthy mind and body should play a part in cave diving as well. As a 12year veteran serving in Somalia, Bosnia and Rwanda I understand training, experience and surviving in a harsh environment and that being in good physical and mental condition plays a vital role for if the body can’t handle the stresses experience suddenly takes a back seat. When I chose an instructor I looked for one who shared this same philosophy and Mike O had just that. Having an individual who is unhealthy and or over weight should consider the risks they pose in the cave community and I have seen a few. If we are going to put standards on dives between levels we also need to put standards on the physical shape of cave divers.

[deepdiverbob]

I also agree with Skip. Just like I learned in my intro class, all the accidents can be followed back to one or more of the basic guidelines being broken.

If there does have to be restrictions put on it, I dont want to see it put on number of dives, they can easily be racked up. I could log 20 dives in a weekend going to Peacock, swimming through Peanut tunnel and back out 20 times. If there has to be a number, I would prefer it be on bottom time, and/or number of different systems, kind of the way Abe Davis use to be. But like I mentioned above, and was mentioned earlier, the more rules you put on people, the more rules will be broken.

[sskasser]

When cave diving deaths are occurring (non-medical) where all of the current rules are being followed, then I'd be for additional training standards. As it stands, people are not dying when they follow the 5 basic rules.

[Squirrel Girl]

When cave diving deaths are occurring (non-medical) where all of the current rules are being followed, then I'd be for additional training standards. As it stands, people are not dying when they follow the 5 basic rules.

I agree. For instance, the recent Wayne's World inicident was people breaking standards. When Ron Simmons died, he was active and no rule regarding refreshing would have really made any difference, I don't think. From what I understood, he probably was breaking thirds, and it got him.

[DeepSea]

I understand training, experience and surviving in a harsh environment and that being in good physical and mental condition plays a vital role for if the body can’t handle the stresses experience suddenly takes a back seat.

Having an individual who is unhealthy and or over weight should consider the risks they pose in the cave community and I have seen a few. If we are going to put standards on dives between levels we also need to put standards on the physical shape of cave divers.

How does physical shape have **** to do with mental condition dealing with cave diving decisions?

I guess if someone has a physical condition (say a back problem) and can function perfectly in cave you would rather see them not diving -- if so, let Jim Fishback (http://www.diverite.com/about/team/jimfishback/) know you think he shouldn't be diving because he doesn't meet your standard. You also probably think think that Matt Johnson should not be diving either because he is a quadrapelgic.

Way to go man, way to use your service as a crutch to bash others.

I had the privilege of serving in the US Navy fr 8 years but I don't wear it on my shirt sleeve as it was an honor and privilege to serve my country. I do not use it as a justification for who I am today. My efforts and service pale in comparison to all the patriots that gave me the opportunity to do so.

[skip]

How does physical shape have **** to do with mental condition dealing with cave diving decisions?

I guess if someone has a physical condition (say a back problem) and can function perfectly in cave you would rather see them not diving -- if so, let Jim Fishback (http://www.diverite.com/about/team/jimfishback/) know you think he shouldn't be diving because he doesn't meet your standard. You also probably think think that Matt Johnson should not be diving either because he is a quadrapelgic.

Way to go man, way to use your service as a crutch to bash others.

I had the privilege of serving in the US Navy fr 8 years but I don't wear it on my shirt sleeve as it was an honor and privilege to serve my country. I do not use it as a justification for who I am today. My efforts and service pale in comparison to all the patriots that gave me the opportunity to do so.

unhealthy and overweight do not correlate with back problems or lack of limbs. asthma, general stamina, obesity...etc., are potential problems underwater, whereas they may be minor problems above water. I think the poster was referring to the health issues, not back or loss of limbs. people with back problems and missing limbs are often quite healthy and thus would not be prevented from diving. If i'm reading these posts correctly.

-skip

[DeepSea]

unhealthy and overweight do not correlate with back problems or lack of limbs. asthma, general stamina, obesity...etc., are potential problems underwater, whereas they may be minor problems above water. I think the poster was referring to the health issues, not back or loss of limbs. people with back problems and missing limbs are often quite healthy and thus would not be prevented from diving. If i'm reading these posts correctly.

-skip

Skip,

This is what your buddy wrote:


"As a 12year veteran serving in Somalia, Bosnia and Rwanda I understand training, experience and surviving in a harsh environment and that being in good physical and mental condition plays a vital role for if the body can’t handle the stresses experience suddenly takes a back seat."

Why don't you let him explain "what he meant"...

[deepdiverbob]

if people are going to bring health into it, then someone go tell John Orlowski he cant dive anymore, because he smokes. Because alcohol damages the liver, people who drink cant dive either (Sorry Slim).

[contender]

Having an individual who is unhealthy and or over weight should consider the risks they pose in the cave community and I have seen a few. If we are going to put standards on dives between levels we also need to put standards on the physical shape of cave divers.

Some good cave divers are not in good shape fitness wise. I will agree that one should try to stay in good fitness, but alot of people don't care about being in good shape. If we follow your advice and put weight standards on cave divers, "there would be very few left". Be careful what you wish for, you may become a fat-body one day.

[skip]

Skip,

This is what your buddy wrote:


"As a 12year veteran serving in Somalia, Bosnia and Rwanda I understand training, experience and surviving in a harsh environment and that being in good physical and mental condition plays a vital role for if the body can’t handle the stresses experience suddenly takes a back seat."
Why don't you let him explain "what he meant"...

Well I see no fun in that at all. if we all waited for each other to explain what we meant, without jumping in and explaining for each other, there would'nt be much of a discussion...more of an exclusionary conversation.

-skip

[FW]

Well I see no fun in that at all. if we all waited for each other to explain what we meant, without jumping in and explaining for each other, there would'nt be much of a discussion...more of an exclusionary conversation.

-skip
:roll:

[Squirrel Girl]

What I see at times in the caves is a big d*ck contest where one is out of their physical abilities of which puts everyone in that team at risk. People blow 1/3rds and it has its consequences, maybe not every time but eventually it will. Why wouldn’t that apply to physical ability? We have dissimilar take volumes why not dissimilar physical ability? I will not participate in a dive where my physical abilities are unable to support my buddy for he/ she may need me to be physically ready. I am not saying that any of these people that have been mentioned are not up to any cave diving standards physically or in any other way.
Well, this seems like any easy problem to overcome. No new rules need to be promulgated. Just pick your buddies carefully. For instance, you and I won't dive together. Problem solved!
http://forums.caves.org/images/smilies/Egyptian.gif

Don't get me wrong. I value your service to our country. After a rough year of busy-ness and travel, I am not in the shape I was a year ago. I want to improve that. But I think people need some common sense. And since I don't have issues with big d***s, I find it irrelevant to me. If you do let testosterone poisoning get the better of your common sense, I doubt there are any "rules" or "regulations" that will overcome that problem.

[OFG-1]

...... And since I don't have issues with big d***s,......

"I promise to be good,I promise to be good, I promise to be good,I promise to be good....."

repeat 100 times

[Squirrel Girl]

"I promise to be good,I promise to be good, I promise to be good,I promise to be good....."

repeat 100 times

I knew that *somebody* would notice that! I didn't craft that statement that way on purpose, but when it came out, I decided, yeah, that just might be what I meant afterall.
;)

[Jonboy]

Hi ,

I will be following your advise and gaining more experience and time diving before looking into the training .

Jonboy

[DA Aquamaster]

These discussion always seem to deteriorate into how to develop rules that will protect everyone from themselves. In the real world that does not work as peopel vary widely. At best rules to protect idiots from themselves just speeds the evolution of better idiots. At worst, it needlessly restricts the activities and learning curves of those divers who would not act irresponsibly imprudently even in the total abscence of rules. Protecting the stupid rom themselves, needs to involve a community self policing itself to maintain a community ethic and community standards.

It involves everyone but the higher you are in the food chain the more responsibility you'll shoulder. For example, an instructor should not be passing people who only marginally meet the requirements and instructor evaluators should not be approving instructors who can't be trusted to maintain high standards and/or need to pull the cards of those who do not.

Demonstrating the ability to do a skill once is not enough in a cave environment and OW instructor experience is a liability in that regard. The student's performance needs to convince you they can do it consitently mastering it at a level that allows for a loss of performance under pressure and still have enough reserve to get the job done. If divers do not meet that standard, they should not get the card. Period. Schedule more dives and more training until they get it right.

In terms of emotional readiness and maturity, instructors should also deny a card to a student who is techncially perfect but who is does not have the right mind set - either lacking in confidence, or exuding it at unhealthy levels making the diver prone to the "too far too fast syndrome" that risks and kills way too many trained cave divers.

In the end it comes down to personal responsibility by each and every diver and if an instructor feels a candidate is not ready or able to be that responsible they should not get a card. Period.

In my case, I dove for over 20 years in some very demanding commercial, technical, deco and zero viz conditions before taking Cavern and Intro but took the training very seriosuly. The bouyancy and other water skills were a non event and presented no real challenges - in large part as I had prepped adn practiced that level of precison for years. That allowed me to focus fully on the techniocal aspects of running lines, procedures in caves, etc - all skills that are essential to survival and are in no way able to be learned absent formal cave training.

However coming into the classbeing very solid in the water, and in particular in doubles, placed me far ahead of the rest of the class in both Cavern and Intro. None the less, I then came home and spent most weekends in the quarry practicing running lines, navigating with blacked out mask, valve drills, etc in between 4 trips to N FL over the enxt year for more Intro level cave diving. Above water learning and practice during this period also included continued research on deco as well as cognitive excercises on navigation and emergency scenarios.

Reading between the lines, that meant someone taught be how to put in a jump at the Intro level - and in essence trusted me not to exceed the limits of my (formal) training. But that trust meant that I was able to practice the skill extensively in a quarry environment at depths to 90' and in 5mm gloves to the point where it was a snap to do it in my Full Cave class with only minor tweaks in technique required. This again allowed me to focus on the finer points of technique and to focus on other details of the class that adiver task loaded with the basics may miss entirely. The combination of about 25 dives at the intro level between classes and extensive practice of basic skills during numerous weekends at the quarry made me a much better cave diver prior to an immediately after Full Cave.

Even post full cave, I put in the same practice time, I continue the same reseach and study on deco, and I continue to do cognitive excercises on navigation and emergency scenarios. It is just a matter of personal discipline.

Now...how does my training experience and the similar or differeing expereince of others figure into a simple system of rules? It really doesn't because it is hard to simlify a system of personal responsibility or community ethics into a system of rules.

One way to achieve a similar outcome by relying on specific rules for specific individuals may be to utilize a "Personal Training Plan" approach where Cavern, Intro and perhaps even Full Cave instructors identify and specify the strenghts and weaknesses the diver has as well as the next steps the diver needs to take before advancing to the next level, and then dive number one at that next level of instruction would involve an instructor verifying those skills have been mastered.

In that regard, I do see value in requiring 25 dives between Intro and Full Cave, but I don't really see the value of requiring those dives be made with a full cave certified diver. That places an undue burden on the Intro diver and unless the Full Cave diver is also suitably disciplined and posssess decent instruction skills in terms of briefing and conducting the dive, the potential exists for it to become a trust me dive where the Intro diver is just along for the ride and learns very little - or worse acquires some bad habits.

For example, on his or her own a pair of Intro divers are likely to run a line in the eye or the ear at Ginnie and learn much from the experience and begin to acquire the habit of running a continuous line on every cave dive. Let's be honest - how many Full Cave divers do you see doing that at Ginnie? What message would not running a line send to the Intro diver? Are we as a community willing to rely on just any full cave diver to explain (justify) why they chose not to run a continous line at Ginnie? (The line is in fact so close to the exit in Ginnie as pretty much every acknowledges that way too many cave divers blow off running a line there and would continue to do so even if it were significantly farther back in the gallery - with possible deadly consequences.)

Having the Intor diver leading those dives in that 25 dive period accellerates the learning curve and imparts more competence and confidence in the diver. The risk of course is that the diver gets over confident and does something stupid and/or beyond there limits, but that is again hopefully something a good instructor would have picked up on in the Intro class. If so, the instructor would have either held the card pending more training and indoctrination or placed suitable restriction on it in the diver's personal training plan pending the next formal class, such as "must dive with a full cave certified diver" or even in severe cases, "must dive with an Intro or Full Cave instructor".

That psychological risk assessment aspect would require additional training for instructors and the implied psych assessment ability that is then required may mean some very gifted divers and instructors would not qualify as instrcutors. I have an MS in Mental Health Counseling and have an extensive back ground in evaluation and assessment. After an hour or so spent with someone talking diving I can probably predict with 90% accuracy how aggressively they will dive and how prone they will be to push limits or do something imprudent. However the ability to make psychological and persoanlity assessments in an informal setting varies widely with the individual doing the assessment and it would pose some training challenges to get instructors up to speed. Still, at a basic gut level most instructors have pretty good instincts about people and they'd just need to be trained to listen to those instincts.

It would be interesting to do reasearch on some paper and pencil or computerized persoanlity assessments with cave divers who do and do not demonstrate safe and prudent diving traits and see what correlations exist. That would perhaps allow the development of a 15 minute assessment on a laptop scored by the software that could identify broad ranges where divers can or cannot be trusted not to push limits and drive the post cert limits accordingly. Of course the agency who implements that will go out of business in about 3 months as it will scare the hell out of potential students.

But an ongoing training plan that follows a diver between certs through Full Cave and perhaps even beyond, along with instructors placing requirements to gain more experience with other divers when needed to moderate over aggressive tendencies the instructor may suspect are there is a place to start.

[cracker]

i did not have alot of experience diving when i started my cave trainning. i lucked out with getting the instructor i did. when me and my dive buddy started, we didnt know how many dives we had to do to get certified. we went in alot of different caves in north fl. we would lay jump lines on one day and go back the next day and do a cicuit, recovering them. we replaced the main line in peacock, the peanut side, and did other working dives. we showed up to dive one day and he said our full cave nss-cds cards were in the mail. we still dive with him from time to time and as soon as he thinks we are ready, we are going on to stage and further.
we live in the area so this type of training is possible, i dont know what the solution is for people that dont live around caves.

[BillGraham]

Giants? I've seen some pretty big guys, like Fishback and Faircloth, but how can a giant get into a cave to begin with? What do they do at the lips? Can they get through the rabbit holeat Madison? Do any of these people live in a valley with a vegetable farm? Are they jolly? Aren't you afraid of getting stepped on?

I have a friend who is 7 feet tall and is cave certified.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Not necessarily.

You can go back home and practice running a reel, buoyancy and trim (buoyancy and trim are TWO SEPERATE SKILLS PEOPLE).

I believe these three skills are the ones that are causing most of the issues everybody is complaining about and they can be practiced in O/W.

The inland lakes are a great place. Try swimming 3 or 4 feet off the bottom of those mucky lakes, look behind you, is it clear or did you stir the bottom up (not you Duck)

It's clear? Getting a little cocky? Now try it 1 foot off the bottom <G>
Doesn't work as well as you might think. I did about 2400 dives in Puget Sound before heading to cave country. Between the flow, the different exposure equipment, and the fact that I was very overweighted in the caves, my buoyancy control didn't come anywhere close to my own personal standards.

Some of the dives I routinely do here are as silty as anything you ever do in a cave ... dives where you can blow out the vis with a stray thought. But being used to the environment and the equipment means everything when it comes to finesse control.

There's simply no substitute for practicing in the same conditions you'll be taking your training in. That's why I booked a second trip just a couple months after the first one ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[skip]

we have caves to dive here in TN...when it don't rain anyway. But Florida always catches me by surprise due to the current. running lines in, doing jumps, and riding the current back out, retrieving the line on exit...it's like learning all over again every time.

-skip

[LCF]

I did Cave 1 in Mexico, and then did almost a hundred cave dives, over several trips, before I attempted C2. I spent those hundred dives working on trim, and kicking, and trying to be "slippery" and never touch ANYTHING with any part of me, fingers to fins. None of that was useful in C2; Florida is simply a different environment requiring different skills, none of which I had :)

[ltb7733]

after initiating this thread some time ago, i have been following all the posts and want to thank all of you for your input. i have some thoughts and some of the things that stand out are that all of you who post are lovers of diving and the caves. All seem responsible and love to be safe and take great pride and care in the education they seek and are willing to help others and share thier knowledge. no one wants anyone to die while undertaking this sport. We all take great pride in how we configure our gear, we love to talk with other divers after a dive and look at what kind of gear they have and discuss the pros and cons of this great sport. i love the social aspect almost as much as the diving. in fact, im not sure which i love more, the cold beer and sitting around the fire at cathys, or swimming to some new nook and cranny i have never seen in all the great systems around here. it occurs to me that most of those who die in caves,(not all) are the ones who dont possess the same attitude displayed here in the forum. they dont post, dont seek more education, dont maintain gear, dont learn from others by being social and seeking advice, dont display respect for others or the cave envirorment, cut corners by getting cheap gear or dont maintain what they have. this is just a theory......any comments?.......

[aainslie]

This BS about "compulsory dives between certs" is just so stupid. No-one is thinking of the unintended consequences.

The idea is:

- Half-train someone;

- Then tell them to go diving, without doing jumps etc and with a higher turn pressure.

And hope to God that they do that.

Why not just train them properly so that they're not tempted for months to do something they're not trained to do?

Almost every non-full certified diver I know has dived beyond their training. I've watched many intro divers talking openly about doing jumps and going to thirds in the parking lot at Ginnie and Little River.

If anything, I'd go the other way and insist that students COMPLETE THEIR TRAINING WITH AN INSTRUCTOR before being allowed to dive on their own in caves.

And I can think of at least one recent tragedy caused by the idiocy of allowing semi-trained divers in caves unsupervised.

[Slüdge]

Andrew, you have a valid point, but like everything else, it boils down to personal responsibility. An alternate point would be that the instructor should tell the student that if he/she ever hears of him/her diving beyond their training, their card will be pulled. That's what mine did, and his students were famous for their safe attitudes.


talking openly about doing jumps and going to thirds in the parking lot at Ginnie

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. What's unsafe about doing jumps and going to thirds in the parking lot? :smt102

[aainslie]

Andrew, you have a valid point, but like everything else, it boils down to personal responsibility. An alternate point would be that the instructor should tell the student that if he/she ever hears of him/her diving beyond their training, their card will be pulled. That's what mine did, and his students were famous for their safe attitudes.



I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. What's unsafe about doing jumps and going to thirds in the parking lot? :smt102

There's no point making rules that ignore human frailty. "Personal responsibility" doesn't work. That's why we have cops.

And your instructor's approach just makes the students hide their diving better. E.g. diving in places like Telford where they won't be spotted... dead or alive.

Rich, bring out the flashing light scooter!

[skip]

it occurs to me that most of those who die in caves,(not all) are the ones who dont possess the same attitude displayed here in the forum. they dont post, dont seek more education, dont maintain gear, dont learn from others by being social and seeking advice, dont display respect for others or the cave envirorment, cut corners by getting cheap gear or dont maintain what they have. this is just a theory......any comments?.......

I disagree. And I disagree about the personal responsibility thing too.

First off, posting is not relevant to much of anything. many good divers never post or even lurk. seeking more education? I suspect every diver, cave or otherwise, continues reading articles, books, talking with buddies, etc. And lack of respect? Gear?

Thinking over the past few years of cave divers deaths, I don't think I see any of those things going on. Cave diving is risky, no doubt about it. The "rules" gleaned from accident analysis provide guidelines to promote survival, and we've seen that nearly all accidents involve a violation of at least one of the rules (whether or not the violation was the cause can't be known). And most of the dead cave divers in the past five years have been trained, thoughtful, highly educated, with great gear in working order. I may be wrong, I haven't reviewed a list of their names, training, etc., so correct me if I have it wrong.

As for personal responsibility...well, that's a slippery concept with a different meaning for each of us. The very fact you die means in some sense a failure of personal responsibility...or does it? I am personally responsible. And if I die in a cave it will be my personal responsibility. I go in the cave fully prepared to come out again, but at the same time am concious of the alternate possibility...that something may occur that will be beyond my ability to resolve it.

What I do see that concerns me are divers moving quickly through training levels - new divers with fewer than 100 total lifetime dives in cave class, divers with lots of dives as divemaster, even instructor, but who's 1,000 dives were all with students at devil's den, people getting involved in diving strictly to dive caves, with no interest and no experience with diving in various environments, and so on. I've seen divers with major back surgery, pins in place, deciding that sidemount has opened up cave diving to them. I've seen divers with pacemakers, recent open heart surgery, asthma, diabetes, etc., taking up cave and deep tech diving. These are the things that really concern me. Get a doctor to sign off and you must be good to go, right? personal responsibility lacking here?

With the apparent increase in the number of agencies offering cave training, with the change in Florida from "cave country," when it was a battle to keep caves open to divers, to the emphasis on cave diving as "economic tourism," when it's becoming a marketable commodity, I am afraid for the changes we can expect in terms of future deaths.

Just as in the Exley Days we discovered the need for guidelines, training, lights, etc., as the caves claimed the untrained and newly trained and the trust me divers, then in the New Millennium we see the addition of complacency, solo, new gear, etc., as the "rules violations" that are killing the educated experienced diver, I see the next wave being the ones with the rushed training and restricted experience.

And perhaps here is where personal responsibility comes in. Those who go slow, get training spread out over time, with plenty of diving experiences in a variety of locations, are probably taking responsibility, while those who push too far too fast are not.

This may be a sign of the times. I think I see something similar in college students these days. The goal of getting the degree, of getting the grade in a class, seems to far outweigh the goal of learning. Instead of trying to understand, too many want to know only what they need to do to pass the test. In a similar vein, the diver who took three years of extensive back surgery, or had a pacemaker installed, gets a doctors note saying it's ok to dive as if the doctor's note is the magic wand opening the caves. That stamp of approval, the paper that says you are good to go, seems to have replaced taking stock of yourself, being honest with yourself. With this attitude carrying over to cave diver training, we may be on the cusp of training divers who have developed a life-long attitude that passing a test is equivalent to knowing how.

-skip

[JahJahwarrior]

What I do see that concerns me are divers moving quickly through training levels - new divers with fewer than 100 total lifetime dives in cave class, divers with lots of dives as divemaster, even instructor, but who's 1,000 dives were all with students at devil's den, people getting involved in diving strictly to dive caves, with no interest and no experience with diving in various environments, and so on.


And perhaps here is where personal responsibility comes in. Those who go slow, get training spread out over time, with plenty of diving experiences in a variety of locations, are probably taking responsibility, while those who push too far too fast are not.

This may be a sign of the times. I think I see something similar in college students these days. The goal of getting the degree, of getting the grade in a class, seems to far outweigh the goal of learning. Instead of trying to understand, too many want to know only what they need to do to pass the test.

-skip

I think it is tough to say that any one thing makes a diver likely to die in a cave. Every death has been unique in some way, where the only thing we can really say at the end of the day is "running out of air is what kills you." Of course, people run out of air for a million different reasons.

I know I've caught flack for being a young cave diver. I also know I don't have tons of lifetime dives, and over half of my dives have been in caves. I know I did my training in under a year.

But, I also know that my open water training was done by a cave diving instructor in the Florida springs, and the first forum I used for information was CDF and then, TDS. This exposed me to cave diving even before I had my OW certification. I also know that I spent hours upon hours talking about cave diving with Rich and his customers at CEE for a year, before deciding it was something I could do safely. I also know I was diving in a technical/cave/hogarthian configuration halfway through that year. I also know I was pushed hard in my classes, and when my butt was handed to me on a silver platter, I went home and figured out what I was doing wrong, and improved. I know I didn't pay for a card, but that I earned the right to be called a cave diver.

I also know that since then, I have pushed myself to learn as much as possible, taking courses to learn about water quality sampling, critter counting, and survey. I know that I am a safe diver, and that I understand the risks involved with overhead diving, and am prepared to suffer the consequences.

Sadly, I also know that two friends of mine, including my nitrox instructor and the previous owner of some of my regs and other equipment, died in a cave.