Thoughts about cave diving course

[waveguide]

Hi,

We are Cavers and Open-Water divers. We have on average 200 open-water dives, which included wreck diving, cavern diving, night diving... Many many different ones! We are also Nitrox-certified.

This means:

1) We know to use light and light-signals
2) We are extremely well ballanced (after so many dives...)
3) We know to be carefull (we are still alive, aren't we?)

Now we started to think about combining diving and caving...

And of cause we started from looking around courses proposed for starting cave-divers.

Unfortunately, it seems that everybody requires "cavern" course as a pre-course to more serious (and interesting) courses This intro-course we find boring since we dived caverns without any courses at al! We even had no idea that one can take money on this thing :) Hm, business,,,

On the other hand, we DO need to have an intro to the new equipment... Cave-diving equipment differs from open-water one...

:diver
What do people like us typically do? Is there a possibility to skip the boring parts and head directly to what is more interesting? Basically the only reason for us to do any course is to have an opportunity to DIVE in a new environment :)

We thought about heading to Florida for our cave-diving courses. Any suggestions as to where we could go to find a place that could help us and concentrate on interesting for us parts in cave-diving?

Many thanks!

[Dark Eternal]

I at first felt the same way about cavern, as I too had been in them several times untrained. However, upon taking my cavern class, I changed my mind. It was the best dive class and the most challenging I had taken yet. I looked at it as more of a introduction of what was to come in a cave diving future than an end game solution to do cavern diving. Its a good class, and even if you have been diving caverns for years I think with the right instructor you will have a lot to gain from taking one.

[guru caver]

Whoa...slow way down...there is nothing boring about diving.
A major mistake some people make is confusing wreck diving and cave diving.
I am not saying one is better than the other, they are just completely different.
Being an accomplished wreck diver will not mean squat in a cave and the opposite is true, too.
Anyway, if you are as good as you say, cavern courses are only 2 days long and who knows? You might learn something interesting.

[RN]

The cavern course is the foundation of the cave diving courses. From someone who hasn't taken it, it may seem like a boring class, but I think you'll find it's not that boring. Even though you've been diving caverns, there are many things you probably haven't done.

Do you do S-drills before every cavern dive?
Do you run lines into the caverns you dive?
Would you know how to exit a cavern in a zero visibility situation?
Would you know how to communicate with your buddy in a zero visibility situation?
Do you know anything about cave conservation and land owner relationships?
Do you understand the different types of underwater cave entrances?

When I took my cavern class I was just like you, about 200 open water dives in many different environments. I learned a whole new way of diving in my cavern class.

[stairman]

Boring or not,its a four step process with most agencies.And you will learn and become more proficient after a formal cavern class no matter how many dives you have logged.Im glad i dont get bored while diving.

[FW]

The cavern course is the foundation of the cave diving courses. From someone who hasn't taken it, it may seem like a boring class, but I think you'll find it's not that boring. Even though you've been diving caverns, there are many things you probably haven't done.

Do you do S-drills before every cavern dive?
Do you run lines into the caverns you dive?
Would you know how to exit a cavern in a zero visibility situation?
Would you know how to communicate with your buddy in a zero visibility situation?
Do you know anything about cave conservation and land owner relationships?
Do you understand the different types of underwater cave entrances?

When I took my cavern class I was just like you, about 200 open water dives in many different environments. I learned a whole new way of diving in my cavern class.
Well said RN.

When the NSS-CDS first started formal training, the only available training required you to have already survived some cave dives. That made no sense, so we developed the Cavern course. It teaches everything necessary to keep you alive in a cave. The only thing missing from the Cavern course are the advanced buoyancy and trim skills required of a serious cave diver.

I too was a "dry" caver, and OW diver/instructor. When I met Sheck Exley, I found out that there was a lot I didn't know, in spite of all my caving and diving experience.

Waveguide,

What part of the country do you live? I might be able to find an instructor close to you.

I see you used an icon with a snorkel. Are you aware that cavern/cave divers don't use snorkels?

[Mark Vlahos]

Lots of good advice already.

If you want to be a cave diver, you will want to get all of the appropriate training. You do not yet know what you do not yet know. In your cavern course you will almost certainly be shown MANY new skills and concepts. You will learn about proper gear configuration. Cavern is the foundation upon which all other cave training is built upon.

I am not aware of any agency, or any individual instructor that will allow you to proceed to the next step in training without cavern instruction. Basic Open Water instruction has a very low failure rate, almost anyone can learn how to dive. Cavern through Full Cave training has a fairly high failure rate, it is an entirely different animal.

Please don't look upon cavern instruction as a boring and unnecessary step. Welcome it as the challenge that it really is. If you feel that your skill level is already beyond the cavern level, then don't think of it as a basic level class, just think of it as a necessary portion of the 4 step process to Full Cave.

Mark Vlahos

[aainslie]

Frankly, cavern is a bad name for it. It's not training you to dive caverns, it's merely teaching you cave diving in a cavern. Not a bad idea to sort out the bugs when it's easy to get to the surface.

Oh - and at 200 dives you're a newbie. Many people who start cave diving do so after thousands of major dives, and none expect to be let off cavern. This includes Joel Silverstein who recently did a class - he has over 5000 dives, and has led expeditions on big wrecks - and he didn't complain.

Do the class. It will be unlike ANY class you've ever done. You will NOT be bored!

[MedCop]

Cavern is a must..I went into it thinking "I really know how to dive, I'm pretty good at this underwater thing" Well, my cavern class opened my eyes to an entire new world & style of diving. Yes, I had done "cavern" dives before I was certified. I did survive..but each one was taking a chance that I didn't know about and only discovered so in the Cavern Class.

Cave diving is not something to take lightly...the progressive steps are built into the programs for a reason.

Oh..and I am just as happy in a cavern as I am a cave....heck, I am happy doing a 20fsw dive at Venice Beach for shark teeth. Anytime I am underwater on SCUBA I am happy and never bored. Maybe I just love to dive and really don't care where I am diving. Granted, if I had my choice all my dives would be cave dives.

Talk with some cave instructors, talk with others who are cave certified.

[waveguide]

Thank you, everybody...

It makes us think.


Well said RN.

What part of the country do you live? I might be able to find an instructor close to you.

I see you used an icon with a snorkel. Are you aware that cavern/cave divers don't use snorkels?

We are from DFW area, Texas. But frankly, we would like to dive - at least in the beginning, as a teaser - in those impressive caves, not just muddy waters. Thus we thought about Florida (Mexico is too expensive for now). Could you suggest a good instructor over there?

The snorkel :diver is a cool icon, this why I used it ;) I've never seen such icon before!

:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver:d iver:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver

But yet, aren't there any "speedy" courses, which may just go faster over what a good open water diver already knows? Because we are good students, learning extremely fast, and I still feel a bit like Put Another Dollar In (PADI, in short) about those cavern courses...

Anyways, Thanks! We'll let you know what's going on ;)

[waveguide]

Talk with some cave instructors, talk with others who are cave certified.

That's exactly what I am doing now :) It seems to work - we are seriously thinking about that Cavern thing, although yet reluctantly (threse three stages seem somehow to be after your money, but I will know for sure after I will do the cavern course - that will shape my opinion based on my own experience :)

[FW]

We are from DFW area, Texas. But frankly, we would like to dive - at least in the beginning, as a teaser - in those impressive caves, not just muddy waters. Thus we thought about Florida (Mexico is too expensive for now). Could you suggest a good instructor over there?
The closest place would be Jackson Blue, in Marianna, FL. There are lots of great instructors in FL.

Look at these lists, and contact a couple of FL instructors:

http://www.safecavediving.com/instructors.asp
http://www.nsscds.org/training_new/instructorlist.htm

[MedCop]

That's exactly what I am doing now :) It seems to work - we are seriously thinking about that Cavern thing, although yet reluctantly (threse three stages seem somehow to be after your money, but I will know for sure after I will do the cavern course - that will shape my opinion based on my own experience :)

You can always take a combined cavern / intro to cave course. That will get your some great training and allow you to get experience in the caves before taking your full cave course.

You can spend tons of dives at the intro level and see new things each dive. The three / four stages are like mentioned there for a reason. OW diving does have some courses that are pretty much designed for money making. However, in my opinion (not that it really matters much) is that an overhead environment is something that you should progress into. The techniques, the equipment are all different that OW diving thus doing a complex circuit or a traverse is something you build up to. You build up to it by going through the levels of cave diving....

Cavern
Intro to Cave
Apprentice Cave Diver
Full Cave Diver

[battles2a5]

But yet, aren't there any "speedy" courses, which may just go faster over what a good open water diver already knows? Because we are good students, learning extremely fast, and I still feel a bit like Put Another Dollar In (PADI, in short) about those cavern courses...

Anyways, Thanks! We'll let you know what's going on ;)

I'm not sure you're getting the point here. Anyone pursuing this type of training is assumed to be a good open water diver from the start. There is no refresher, the class is completely focused on the deployment of very specific tools and skills. So if you are indeed a good open water diver, then you are right where you should be prior to starting the class. Every skill you learn is going to be the foundation for the rest of your cave training. This also gives the instructor a chance to test your skills and your disposition underwater. After all, they are putting themselves at risk by bringing you in a cave, they deserve the chance to ensure your skills are up to snuff.

Cave diving and saving money are mutually exclusive terms. If you are looking at getting training and gear on the cheap you would be making a huge mistake. As Andrew said, many better and more experienced divers have come before you and they did a cavern course. Nobody is going to let you out of it just because you think it is an excuse to make money.

[chimie007]

But yet, aren't there any "speedy" courses, which may just go faster over what a good open water diver already knows?


Cave courses (cavern, intro, apprentice, full, NAUI Cave, GUE Cave) all require above average OW divers. 90%+, if not more, of OW diver would fail a proper cavern course. The fact that you "think" that you are good diver just means that you probably have the stuff needed to take the class... Some are better at it, some are worse but no OW can speed up through a cavern/intro class. The skills have no relation to OW. Taskloading has no relation to OW.

To put this in perspective I didn't do cavern and went directly into NAUI Cave 1. This was only possible because I had taken NAUI Tech 1 with the same instructor. When I took Cave 1, I already dove doubles, proficient in most of the skills, already diving the proper gear setup, etc and I still worked my butt off during the course.... No one coming from OW could do such a course without a cavern course first.

Talk to some cave diver in your area. Cavern class is only 2 days. Worth it.

[guru caver]

Thank you, everybody...

It makes us think.



We are from DFW area, Texas. But frankly, we would like to dive - at least in the beginning, as a teaser - in those impressive caves, not just muddy waters. Thus we thought about Florida (Mexico is too expensive for now). Could you suggest a good instructor over there?

The snorkel :diver is a cool icon, this why I used it ;) I've never seen such icon before!

:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver:d iver:diver:diver:diver:diver:diver

But yet, aren't there any "speedy" courses, which may just go faster over what a good open water diver already knows? Because we are good students, learning extremely fast, and I still feel a bit like Put Another Dollar In (PADI, in short) about those cavern courses...

Anyways, Thanks! We'll let you know what's going on ;)
FW is right cave diving instructors come in droves in this part of the country.
Another suggestion is to look into NAUI. Unlike PADI, they offer full-cave courses. In this part of the world, NSS-CDS or NACD are the more common cave certs.

[Squirrel Girl]

Because we are good students, learning extremely fast, and I still feel a bit like Put Another Dollar In (PADI, in short) about those cavern courses...
I too, think, there's a huge racket going on in the diving business. I have done a lot of learning from being part of projects and frankly I prefer it to paying to learn stage diving, sidemount diving, etc. etc. etc. I learned rebreathers straight out of OW. Now a friend of mine is taking a rebreather class and has to have 16 gazillion pre-requisite classes. Harumph. Some may need all that, but I'm sure she doesn't. Not that the classes are bad, but they do add up!
http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/wallet.gif

But I took the full cave class and I don't feel it was a racket. It was good solid info to stay alive. I didn't have as much OW experience as you, but I didn't feel I was being taught OW skills. It's a good idea to have your first few cave dives with an instructor with you, let alone all the teaching that goes on.

[skip]

medcop's advice is the way to go. take a four day cavern/intro to cave course. your instructor may advance you from cavern to intro to cave after the first day, if you are as good as you think. the intro to cave course will kick your butt. the combined price is usually less than doing two courses separately and you will absolutely need the cavern course first as RN and others have stated. There are many good instructors in Florida cave country and all of them will tailor the course to your ability and skill as demonstrated in the first day of cavern.

have you purchased the cave diving manual? the cavern diving manual? exley's blueprint for survival? cave diving signals? if not do so before you take the cavern/intro cave course!

-skip

[guru caver]

I too, think, there's a huge racket going on in the diving business. I have done a lot of learning from being part of projects and frankly I prefer it to paying to learn stage diving, sidemount diving, etc. etc. etc. I learned rebreathers straight out of OW. Now a friend of mine is taking a rebreather class and has to have 16 gazillion pre-requisite classes. Harumph. Some may need all that, but I'm sure she doesn't. Not that the classes are bad, but they do add up!
http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/wallet.gif

But I took the full cave class and I don't feel it was a racket. It was good solid info to stay alive. I didn't have as much OW experience as you, but I didn't feel I was being taught OW skills. It's a good idea to have your first few cave dives with an instructor with you, let alone all the teaching that goes on.
You are so right. My favorite 'money course' is CCR/Cave. If you are cave trained and already CCR trained, why do you need to combine the two in a completely new class? What's next? CCR/DPV !! You need to pay thousands of dollars to RE-learn to ride your scooter with your rebreater!!

[guru caver]

medcop's advice is the way to go. take a four day cavern/intro to cave course. your instructor may advance you from cavern to intro to cave after the first day, if you are as good as you think. the intro to cave course will kick your butt. the combined price is usually less than doing two courses separately and you will absolutely need the cavern course first as RN and others have stated. There are many good instructors in Florida cave country and all of them will tailor the course to your ability and skill as demonstrated in the first day of cavern.

have you purchased the cave diving manual? the cavern diving manual? exley's blueprint for survival? cave diving signals? if not do so before you take the cavern/intro cave course!

-skip

Do you really think that is the best advice to give someone who gets on the internet bragging about his/her abilities and asking for shortcuts?
I know that this shouldn't be taken too seriously because it is "Just the Internet!" But I do not know of a single instructor that would 'advance you' after one day!

[ajimmythekid]

“Everything I learned in life I learned in kindergarten “That’s the same with cavern class when it comes to cave diving. Anyone can learn how to float flat on their own or even read a book about near death accounts or cave conservation. It’s was the teaching lectures, my instructors’ personal accounts of their own stories told first hand, and the one on one in water instruction and review that makes the difference.
This is not college where you can clip a course & just take a written test, because you don’t want to sit through the class. I still strive to improve these same cavern skills that took real class time to learn; they are the same skills used at 200’ & 2,000’ back in a system.

[Arctic Mike]

The combined Cavern/Intro Cave course is a great way to go for someone who is very comfortable with themselves in the underwater environment.

I am not sure that an Instructor will "promote" you after the first day, but any good Instructor is going to tailor the course based on the abilities of the Student that they observe during that first Cavern Day.

I had been an Intructor (OWI, DMI, and taught many Wreck Diving Specialty Courses) for quite some time and had several hundred dives in doubles before taking my Cavern/Intro Course. I took the combined course because I too felt that the Cavern Course was not going to teach me, or show me, anything new. Was I ever wrong! My Instructors (in Florida) were absolutely fantastic. I was telling my dive buddies (one of whom decided to take the same courses) after I returned home that as good as we thought we were, we still had a lot to learn.

Even though I am now Full Cave certified, I still learn a lot from my Instructors (who I now count among my friends) every time we have the opportunity to dive together!

There are a few Dive Courses out there that are designed for nothing more than padding the pockets of the Certifying Agencies (and their Instructors) but Cavern/Intro/Apprentice/Full Cave are not among them IMHO.

Take the combined Cavern/Intro Cave Course. You will learn a lot, and you will not regret it.

[underwaterjedi]

I was already an open water instructor with hundreds of dives when I took my cavern class and I thought it was a tough and challenging class. I remember when I took my cavern course we were supposed to spend half a day on theory/lecture and that alone turned into almost a full day. It was our fault because we wouldn't stop asking questions. All the information was new to us and we were all open water instructors taking the cavern class, so we were no newbies. Add to that the time we spent modifying our open water gear and going over what a cave rig should be like. Add to that land drills, line drills, touch contact, propulsion techniques, reel management etc.. and I see no way a cavern class could possibly take less then 2 days even if we had just been quiet and not asked questions There is no filler in that class. It's all useful and very necessary information. One of the best classes you can take and to be honest an incredible bargain for what most instructors charge. I wouldn't hesitate to recomend the class to anyone. Get ready for an eye opening experience if you think you already have what it takes.

[skip]

Do you really think that is the best advice to give someone who gets on the internet bragging about his/her abilities and asking for shortcuts?
I know that this shouldn't be taken too seriously because it is "Just the Internet!" But I do not know of a single instructor that would 'advance you' after one day!

I agree and the use of "advance" was not correct. I simply meant that instructors have some leeway in how quickly they can allow a student to "progress" through courses. perhaps skipping the second day of cavern is overstatement and I did not mean the course might be reduced to three days instead of four, even if "advanced" or "progressed." I just meant that it may be possible to be in a cave sometime before the end of the second day, although not necessarily beyond cavern limits.

I doubt if anyone is that good and bragging is par for the course.

And if someone is that good, really that good, well, how could anyone justify holding them back? They get it done the first day, show it again the first half of the second, why not start the morning of the third day that afternoon? day two in a cave...just a little way.

I'm not an instructor and truly do not know if any would advance a student after one day of cavern. But it seems reasonable to me (for those who are 3 standard deviations above the mean). And the "extra" time is spent doing some extra cave dives, which is the whole point to begin with. The students get extra training based on individualized rates of success and progression through knowledge and skills. Likewise I would hope an instructor would add a day for those who need it, ask some to return at a later date, and downright refuse to certifiy some.

I don't think he or they are looking for short-cuts, just some reasonable progression based on their current ability and skill, which admittedly is probably over-rated (because we all were there once and now know better, think we know better).

-skip

[stairman]

If yall,are in a hurry,try the zero to hero 8 day course.Cavern to Full cave.Then youll see what your made of.

[FW]

If yall,are in a hurry,try the zero to hero 8 day course.Cavern to Full cave.Then youll see what your made of.
Some of the worst cavedivers I have ever met took that route :roll:

[waveguide]

Thanks everybody!

I am not bragging (sorry if that was the impression!), I am just trying to understand and get advice from the experienced cave-divers before I actually do anything.

You gave lots of valuable info here, and the discussion around was really helpful in understanding of the courses value - I believe that we will go for the 4-days course (intro+the next one!) - We will post here what we think about our future course (and instructors) after Thanksgiving ;)

[cinder4320]

Thanks everybody!

I believe that we will go for the 4-days course (intro+the next one!)

The four day course is "Cavern and Intro to Cave Diving" not "Intro and another course". =)

Cavern courses get you prepared in terms of skill sets (buoyancy, trim, proper propulsion, etc.) and Intro expands on that and gives you the education necessary to actually penetrate into the cave. As others have already said Cavern lets you practice the necessary skills in a more friendly environment instead of inside the actual cave. The first time you enter a cave you should be somewhat proficient in the basics and I don't mean the basics of OW diving.

Miranda

[icestac]

IIRC it only took me about 9 months to go from Cavern to Full cave ;). Just a boat load of dives and lots of experience. I don't see what the rush is. The cost of the course and instructor is probably nothing compared to the travel costs of your trips. And during this time you'll get familiar with different cave systems.

Have fun and be safe!
~Jeff

[RN]

waveguide, do you have experience diving doubles? That would be the first step. I recommend you either have at least 50 dives in doubles (more is better), or complete the Cavern/Basic course in a single tank. The Cavern/Basic course is not the place to learn how to dive doubles. And putting a 2nd tank on your back is not all that easy.

[Webmaster]

waveguide, do you have experience diving doubles? That would be the first step. I recommend you either have at least 50 dives in doubles (more is better), or complete the Cavern/Basic course in a single tank. The Cavern/Basic course is not the place to learn how to dive doubles. And putting a 2nd tank on your back is not all that easy.

Not to mention diving dry. And it wouldn't hurt to have advanced nitrox and deco at least before hand.

Plenty of new stuff to be occupying your mind with. The more you can get trained on and accustomed to beforehand in open water, the better you can concentrate on the rest.

[Scubastud16]

I don't see why you feel the need to skip Cavern. All the basics for cave diving are laid out during a cavern course. As someone said earlier, you are cave diving in a cavern. While I have yet to progress to Basic (financial issues), cavern is the best course I have ever taken.

[guru caver]

Some of the worst cavedivers I have ever met took that route :roll:

I could not agree with you more! :clapper :clapper :clapper

[Rich]

I could not agree with you more! :clapper :clapper :clapper

Me three...... :)

Safe diving,

Rich

P.S. As an instructor I refuse to teach the zero to hero, I wish more would do the same!

[TonyDCaver]

I don't know how much more can be said here...
The Cavern course is wonderful and it should not be considered "boring" you will learn LOADS of things about diving you never knew... Taking the jump from OW diver into the first level of cave is a huge jump! Take the cavern/intro course like others have said, but prepared for a mentally and physically exhausting 4 day course.

-Tony

[BabyDuck]

being an excellent open water diver has little to do with cave diving. the skillsets are just too different, unless you're working hard on heading for cave while being mentored. in other words, you can practice cave skills in open water, but open water skills don't necessarily have much to do with cave. ask a friend of mine who got light feet while running a reel & tried a flip...he said the instructor laughing haunts his dreams.

i'm not trying to knock you down, but while you're breathing the same compressed gas, there's not a whole lot else that's comparable between ow & cave. unless cave is what you've been working towards on purpose, you're just not there.

so embrace it! see if you can hook up with local cave divers willing to mentor you. go in planning on cavern & intro - then if you don't pass to intro, you can have several days of cavern diving built in to the end of cavern class to practice your skills.

[LCF]

The standards for diving are quite different, when you reach technical or cave classes. I'd highly recommend you hook up with an instructor local to you who teaches an Intro to Tech or Fundamentals class, and at least get a checkout dive with this person. You may get some feedback that will tell you you aren't as ready to do a cave class as you may believe that you are. A lot of the "cavern" portion of a cave class is trying to bring divers up to the kind of skill level that is really a PRErequisite for a cave diving class.

When I did my cavern class, there was a fellow there diving doubles for the first time, handling a reel for the first time, and although he was an experienced and comfortable diver, his skills just weren't up to the demands. He had, for example, done no no-mask swimming or line-following, and he was unable to manage horizontal trim in doubles.

There is a LOT to developing the fundamental skills for cave diving, and then to them, you have to add navigation, communications, and situational awareness. Do not discount the cavern class. It isn't trivial at all. And it's very important to be humble about cave diving, or the cave will make sure you are.

[tomhauburn]

Not to mention diving dry. And it wouldn't hurt to have advanced nitrox and deco at least before hand.

You have got that right on the dry suit!

I personally was humbled on my third dry suit dive coming out of the system. Did dive four and was humbled again in a spot I never ever had any problems with in a wet suit. I still find it amazing just how much I still do not know sometimes and just how easy it is to get task loaded. The classes are great in my opinion and spending some time in between is the most bang for the buck. Also having some good mentors who can provide good feed back while you dive is very handy. All of us have a tendency to pick up a bad habit, even some of the instructors and we should always be open to constructive criticism. The goal is to have fun. work on muscle memory of skills and be safe. Instruction and mentoring both work towards that goal and I appreciate both of them.

Hope you enjoy the class. I suspect you will have a real eye opening experience.

Tom