checking the line

[ARY]

The mailreport on recent dive in P2 of people i know makes me to think: should i pull the line occasionally just to check if it is still secured reliably at its tie offs and placements. We swim along the line but we don't know if it is still secure when we will neeed it. If i accidentally break the line doing pull-checks i can abort my dive and fix line on spot but it will ensure that line is in working condition. My concern however in this situation would be: what if while i'm doing it some team is still in there? In PSSP i shouldn't do such pull-checks but instead go to report problem, right? Is it OK to do pull-checks elsewhere?

Any way personally for me it is a reminder about situations when line that you used to enter and travel along in a cave really gets untied, removed or weared off so i have to remember to do careful inspection of line at each placement (which i frequently forget). Gold line that is laid in major passages is probably OK but rarely visited places with old line berried in silt might present dangerous surprises.

[Angie Reim]

I would agree that gold line is generally okay. However on the last dive I made to Hill 400, part of the rock that the line was wrapped around must have broken off -- or perhaps some students had pulled too hard making the jump (a forgiveable offense, they ARE students). The gold line was drifting in the current and I could envision a scooterer coming around the corner and clotheslining himself. Of course we stopped and did our best to reroute and tighten the line.

Just when we finished that I was changing reg's (SM) and coincidently I was blown into and tangled in the same line --- right then another team came around the corner and caught me. :oops: I gave them the universal loser signal, waved okay and then swam away as fast as I could.:lol:

Anyway I digress----- I might give a VERY slight tug to the line when I go down the tunnel less traveled. If the line is buried in silt I always try to bring it up. Better to know where the line is and where it leads than assume the wrong thing into a silt mound. If I screw up the viz for my own dive then that's a small price to pay. :D

[Tegg]

I always give the line a tug every once in awhile... the less traveled a part of the cave and the siltier, the more I "test" the line. You really don't want the line going limp on a zero vis exit...

Of course YMMV and I am not responsible for you pulling off a tie off if you "test" the line to hard...
:wink:

[ARY]

Just when we finished that I was changing reg's (SM) and coincidently I was blown into and tangled in the same line --- right then another team came around the corner and caught me. :oops: I gave them the universal loser signal, waved okay and then swam away as fast as I could.:lol:


Stop, this is offtopic but i like the way it is. When you were changing regs did you attach hose and second stage back on cylinder? I leave it hang on the same one necklace, why store it back on cylinder if you don't have a need to unclip bottle now?
Another interesting moment: what is a standard "universal loser" signal ? :wink:

[HomoErectus]

Another interesting moment: what is a standard "universal loser" signal ?


I would like to know that singal too, so I can put it on my fins. :-D

[Angie Reim]

Universal loser signal.

Thumb and finger in shape of 'L' on the forehead. :D

[PacerFan577]

Just when we finished that I was changing reg's (SM) and coincidently I was blown into and tangled in the same line --- right then another team came around the corner and caught me. :oops: I gave them the universal loser signal, waved okay and then swam away as fast as I could.:lol:

So last weekend my wife and I decided to do a push dive up the gold line to see how far we could make it on backgas. We were headed up the main line toward Hill 400 when I come around a corner and nearly run into someone in sidemount that's close to entangling themselves in the line... They realized it, got up and over the line, gave us the universal loser signal, and moved away faster than I've seen anyone go. :lol:

So Angie, that was you? I wasn't going to say anything, but since you did... Well, nice to meet you anyway :D

[Angie Reim]

Yeah. It was funny. I swear your face was about 18 inches from mine when you came around that corner. Should've seen the look in your eyes. Like 'Holy cr**! What is this?!"

Very uncool of me. I should've backed off the line before changing regs.


When you were changing regs did you attach hose and second stage back on cylinder? I leave it hang on the same one necklace, why store it back on cylinder if you don't have a need to unclip bottle now?

Same one necklace? I don't understand. Two reg's on one necklace? One reg clipped off a necklace? Two regs, two necklaces? Sounds cumbersome and can lead to confusion between which reg goes to which tank.

What works for me is the following. I am no expert and this is what has worked out for me only. You asked, I'll tell you but go get official training if you have not done so. It is worth every penny! It's worth it to learn from someone elses mistakes without suffering them yourself. That being said.......I dive SM exclusively. I will mix dive styles (BM/SM). My regular buddy dives SM but prefers BM. If it's a team of two the buddy needs to be experienced and known to NOT likely panic. If a buddy is not well known/experienced then someone else needs to be BM too - team of three.

For the BM buddy I carry a 5ft LONG hose on the left tank which I wrap around my neck in the usual manner with a bungee necklace. The excess is stuffed on the tank under two bands. I've learned to stuff it such that it deploys without entangling itself on my rig. (Thank you J.F. for the helpful hint. Yall should've seen the first drill. What a hoot!). The right reg is on a SHORT hose and clipped off with a break away o-ring arrangement. I stuff the excess hose on the right tank and I can easily return it there during a dive. The rig seems streamlined (BUT I AM ALWAYS OPEN TO HELPFUL SUGGESTIONS).

I have run OOA drills and the air share with BM works well. On those drills I have said just grab a reg and we'll work out the long hose after you get air. Of course the one in my mouth was the one grabbed. Since the right is break away, all I had to do was pull it. If the right was pulled the other hose was on the necklace and ready. Likewise, I can quickly donate that long hose to help someone. A switch off was not difficult and it is my responsibility to move to a more correct swim position. You can't expect an OOA person to think well.

Proper air management is crucial. I never expect to airshare for myself and always I keep enough in each tank to get myself out. Good thing because I had a free flow last weekend that required me to shut down one tank for exit. I wasn't worried. Plenty of air in the one tank and there were options for accessing the shut down tank. The buddy at the time was BM. I wouldn't take his air, but he was ready! :-D

BTW if any sidemounters out there take exception to this arrangement and can foresee a disaster in the making then please comment. Like I said, I'm no expert but this arrangement seems to be working well for me given that I do to mix SM and BM dives (under the strict guidelines mentioned above).

One last comment. If the dive plan is definitely for tight nasties SM only then I'll remove the long hose for a shorter version so it won't catch on rocks.

[Angie Reim]

Of course YMMV and I am not responsible for you pulling off a tie off if you "test" the line to hard...
:wink:

What does YMMV mean?

[ARY]

Thanks Angie for sharing your experience. I'm only on my way to sign up for sm class (just need some time and some money) however i always try to use my chance to ask questions.

I have similar config: left cyl w.long hose around neck(will donate), right cyl with H-valve and primary short hose w.swivel , secondary "stage"-length hose folded under inner tube on cyl and this second stage clipped to the right cyl(will use as replacement reg or safety reg if cyl used for no-mount restriction). I use just one necklace to clip both active second stages on it (elastic rings between each reg and its clip). The reason for one necklace came after my right (short hose) second stage stuck in between sholder d-ring and rock and started to release gas and i had no chance to get to it with my hands. If this reg would be on my necklace at that time it never happened (plenty of room between head and body around neck to protect regs from pinch and dirt).

In any case it takes seconds to switch second stages in your mouth unless you try to fold hoses and clip second stage back on a cylinder. This one may affect a trim for a moment especially in "wind". That is what i was thinking reading your message and thats why it became curious to me.

[Angie Reim]

In any case it takes seconds to switch second stages in your mouth unless you try to fold hoses and clip second stage back on a cylinder. This one may affect a trim for a moment especially in "wind". That is what i was thinking reading your message and thats why it became curious to me.

Yep. That's what happened. I was reaching back to better stuff a hose when I caught the "tailwind" and got blown over and behind the line. The line went around a corner just then and I just about got wedged between it and the rock. Nothing serious. Just annoying. The entertainment was when the other folks came around the corner.

Angie

[Angie Reim]

I have similar config: left cyl w.long hose around neck(will donate), right cyl with H-valve and primary short hose w.swivel , secondary "stage"-length hose folded under inner tube on cyl and this second stage clipped to the right cyl(will use as replacement reg or safety reg if cyl used for no-mount restriction). I use just one necklace to clip both active second stages on it (elastic rings between each reg and its clip).

I don't do no-mount (not yet anyway). Dang! I sold my H-valve. Thought I'd never need it again. Sigh.....so much more to learn. BTW I clip off my reg high on the shoulder harness not the bottle. Good point about the stuck reg. Thanks for the info.

Angie

[normblitch]

Of course YMMV and I am not responsible for you pulling off a tie off if you "test" the line to hard...



What does YMMV mean?

"Your Mileage May Vary"

Norm

[normblitch]

ARY wrote:

I have similar config: left cyl w.long hose around neck(will donate), right cyl with H-valve and primary short hose w.swivel , secondary "stage"-length hose folded under inner tube on cyl and this second stage clipped to the right cyl(will use as replacement reg or safety reg if cyl used for no-mount restriction). I use just one necklace to clip both active second stages on it (elastic rings between each reg and its clip).


I don't do no-mount (not yet anyway). Dang! I sold my H-valve. Thought I'd never need it again. Sigh.....so much more to learn. BTW I clip off my reg high on the shoulder harness not the bottle. Good point about the stuck reg. Thanks for the info.

Angie

Angie,

A few weeks ago, Ary, knowing my curiosity with SM, gave me a relaxed suprise OOA drill in the Ballroom at Ginnie...it went slippery as nasal mucosa...I hadn't paid any attention to his reg setup, and frankly couldn't tell from my end (the recipient) any difference from a BM drill...

http://www.pbase.com/eanx/image/38511546/medium

Norm

[normblitch]

Universal loser signal.

Thumb and finger in shape of 'L' on the forehead.

I prefer the 3-way loser variant...same start as above, but point the middle finger FORWARD...no matter WHICH way you look, it a LOSER...

<g>

Norm

[normblitch]

Gold line that is laid in major passages is probably OK but rarely visited places with old line berried in silt might present dangerous surprises.


The last time I was in Madison Blue, the Horseshoe line was in the silt;

http://www.pbase.com/eanx/image/32408979

...not knowing Protocols, I left it that way..Has anyone fixed it?

Norm

[BillGraham]

I've just been using surgical tubing with a big ball on it up high on the shoulder straps to stow the regs, crossed over. I've never used the sidemount rig with backmount divers but I do carry a long hose in my box just in case. I personally don't like the idea of having a hose go behind my head in the sidemount rig although I see lots of people diving that way who know a lot more than I do.

I usually have a couple of pieces of inner tube on each tank for stowing hoses, does anyone see a reason why I couldn't stow a long hose that way rather than behind my neck? Is a 7ft. hose too long to use for that purpose?

[Angie Reim]

I usually have a couple of pieces of inner tube on each tank for stowing hoses, does anyone see a reason why I couldn't stow a long hose that way rather than behind my neck? Is a 7ft. hose too long to use for that purpose?

I tried the 7ft hose with and without wrapping around the neck. The problem was deploying it for airshare. Just too long. Too many loops stuffed under the bands. It would get caught up on the rig. With the 5ft hose and a wrap around the neck, the problem was solved. Anything shorter would not allow a reasonable airshare arrangement that might get someone out alive. Try deploying it and see what happens.

[Widiver_Paul]

I've tried several different hose arrangements when sidemounting, iv'e found what works for me is 40" (stage reg) hoses on both side, with left going around the neck on a necklace, right going around the neck into the mouth, clipped off on right chest when not in use. Similar to my BM setup, so I automatically know which valve goes to which reg. I don't use a longhose as I was taught both divers in a team should be configured the same, and sidemount should involve exchanging bottles after providing emergency gas. The only change i'd make if I could would be to use a custom hose with a length like 32-35" on the left side to take some slack out for better streamlining. I've tried using poseidons (great for the right side), but I don't love their mouthpieces and the way my gums and teeth feel at the end of the dive from the way it tugs on the right. I'd use a swivel, but that just seems to be another failure point (i've seen these fail on 3 divers rigs).

[ARY]

I'd use a swivel, but that just seems to be another failure point (i've seen these fail on 3 divers rigs).

There are two types of swivel. The "ball" type may eventually give up and leak but leak doesn't happen suddenly (you will notice that it starts to seep air long before problem happens). Another type of swivel is rotating V with angle of something like 120deg (Scubapro, many thanks Charlie SCS). Those are much more reliable due to less motion in it. I use it on right cylinder primary reg set.

[Widiver_Paul]

The "ball" type may eventually give up and leak but leak doesn't happen suddenly (you will notice that it starts to seep air long before problem happens).

One failure I saw (luckily it was in a pool) just started shooting air out like a freeflow, it would have been pretty scary deeper than 10 feet or in overhead.

[crazyduck]

I'd use a swivel, but that just seems to be another failure point (i've seen these fail on 3 divers rigs).

Recently at DEMA I meet the President of Omni Swivel and was really impressed.
I was talking about diving and the swivel being a “possible” failure point and this guy was great. He could have just ripped of my head for being a moron instead he took out on of the swivels and took it apart. I was so impressed! Come to find out the J&M Mfg has multiple patents and other 3rd world countries are trying to produce knock offs and cheapen the product.

I work in Industrial Automation/ Engineering and I see my fair share of underdeveloped crap! But this was really sweet. He builds both sides of the parts separately, he finishes the parts, plates them, and then assemblies them. If you get a chance I would highly recommend looking at their product. This is going to be more expensive but I think we can possible benefit from the proper design ideas. His product is also for sale at Advanced Diver magazine.

Paul, if you have any questions give me a yell.

Regards, Andrew

J&M Manufacturing or Omni Swivel.


Web site: http://www.omniswivel.com

Check out photos- half way down the page.
http://www.therebreathersite.nl/Boot%202005/various.htm

[Widiver_Paul]

Looked at that swivel, those look pretty nice. Omniswivel seems to have a similar design to a 1-atm suit joint, whereas the failures i've seen have been with the ball-and-socket type design.

[rchrds]

Ok- just a couple of things- one for the original post- and one for the off topic-

Pull checks on the line are not always a good thing. I say this not with the usual places in mind- there are many places off the beaten path where the lines are laid in fragile territory- pulling the line is sure to break the tie-offs- which is fine in an emergency, but not otherwise- many of these lines have been in place for many, many years without anyone yanking them free. I almost never pull the line- the only exception being if it is buried in silt- As another person mentioned bring it to the top- I have actually seen line go in a silt pile on one side and out on the other, but be broken in the middle! :( Another thing that I used to run into that has become less common, now that people like to shove steel stakes in the pristine sand/clay dunes, is a line that has been laid intentionally slack. This had two purposes- (and of course it only worked in low flow, non-reversing caves.) If the line, when pulled taut would invariably work into a particularly ugly line trap, it would sometimes be laid slack- with a bomber tie off on either end. This allowed the person in zero viz to fish back and forth to find the large part of the passage. There were usually only a few sections laid like this, so you knew that if you were still on the line and you werent able to get through you were in the wrong part of the passage- go right or left. The other was passage where there were no acceptable tie offs for a large distance due to fragile passage, Though I think I've only seen that once.

As for the hose config- I finally had to quit routing the hose around my neck in the fashion that you describe. If you spend a significant amount of time in uncomfortably small passage that left hose is ALWAYS getting hung up when you duck your head to get through- particularly bad if you have one hand full with a bottle partially disconnected and in front, and the other hand helping through the restriction. Even worse if it pulls some slack from your bottle and you dont realize that it has hung until your shoulders are through the restriction and it is hung about the middle of your back. I finally went to a reg that feeds from the left, which I am not particularly happy with, because of the quality of the reg (too bad the G250 cant be swapped for left hand feed) but I have not got snagged up since. Another common answer is to route the hose below you- if you keep most of the slack out, it will stay streamlined, but the real advantage is you can fold your arms to reach your belly and unsnag it- kind of hard to reach between your shoulder blades.

J