Finger tight regs

[phillip1]

I was wondering what your take on this would be?
I was diving a really messed up restriction in a cave we found here, it involves crawling in a fairly deep layer of fine silt for a bit, the passage is very wide but only like about 40 cms tall, needless to say that viz is 0% you can't even see your gauges up close at all and I was thinking to myself that it would suck and be very difficult and time consuming to have to change regs if one clogged up with silt in a situation like this. After thinking about this a bit I thought that it would be way easier to screw in the regs to the hoses only finger tight that way if one gets clogged you could unscrew it and swap way faster than actually having to swap first stages, and also if very unlucky and both regs were to clog up with the mud you could breath of the hose and feather the tank to get out. Does this sound like a good idea? I have not heard of anyone doing this so there must be something wrong about this that I am not thinking about. Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.

[Slüdge]

If I have to breathe off the hose, just shoot me. That air comes out at 135psi.

I don't dive in the conditions you mention, but if I did, it would make more sense to use second stages you can disassemble easily. In my case, Scubapro G-250s, I would leave out the little dowel-pin-thingie that keeps the cover from turning. That way, I could remove the cover, thrust washer, and diaphragm very easily, get all the crud out, and then reassemble everything, all without tools.

[Mike Edmonston]

***IF*** this is something you want to persue (not something I would do, but to each his own), you could tighten the regs just a little bit tighter than hand tight, and bring that small wrench with you (in a pocket).

Again, this is not something that I would do, but I don't dive (can't fit) in a 40cm passage, so your needs are much different than mine.

Safe Diving

[Jay]

I would not recommend finger tight at the hose connection. It is too easy to get more loose and blow the O-ring. I had this happen, on the surface thankfully.

I second the loose cover method though. As long as you can get the cover off, you can clean it, as long as you don't lose any parts!!!! I can get my covers off fairly easily.

It is very unlikely your second will fail closed anyway for most regs. As long as you can get the exhaust valve to seal you I would choose to feather the
tank valve and breath through the reg over the hose method!

[rjack]

The finger tight concept has fallen out of favor because inadvertent loosening, while not super common, is a major, major disaster. An lp hose can drain a tank really fast while whipping you senseless. If you might need to remove a reg, bring a small wrench. West Marine sells small stainless adjustable wrenches, or get a cheap open/box end wrench and put a cord or boltsnap on the box end.

[phillip1]

The only thing almost impossible about taking apart the reg is that in this situation it is very tight & you see absolutely nothing at all due to the thick mud/silt combo.
You are saying that a finger tight reg on the hose would be dangerous as it could come loose of the hose under pressure? or prone to an Oring faillure due to lack of mechanical tightness?.

I was wondering what those guys in the UK who dive very messed up sumps would do?
If I really had to I could swap first stages but that would be very time consuming and with a DIN always kind of a hassle and it might not be possible.

[phillip1]

The finger tight concept has fallen out of favor because inadvertent loosening, while not super common, is a major, major disaster. An lp hose can drain a tank really fast while whipping you senseless. If you might need to remove a reg, bring a small wrench. West Marine sells small stainless adjustable wrenches, or get a cheap open/box end wrench and put a cord or boltsnap on the box end.

this may sound very dumb, what's an open box wrench?

[chimie007]

You are saying that a finger tight reg on the hose would be dangerous as it could come loose of the hose under pressure? or prone to an Oring faillure due to lack of mechanical tightness?.
.

This exact same thing happened to me on a cave dive. I had tuned my 2nd stage the week before and forgot to tighten them with a wrench. During the dive, the connection started leaking. Shut the tank, look at the connection. It was obviously loose. I tighten it but it still leaked badly. I had extruded the o-ring. Left the tank shut and exited. Wasn't a big deal but I now make sure that ALL my hoses are tight whenever I service/adjust/change hose on my regs. The problem is that once the o-ring is extruded you can't fix it underwater short of replacing the o-ring.

[akcaver]

This exact same thing happened to me on a cave dive. I had tuned my 2nd stage the week before and forgot to tighten them with a wrench. During the dive, the connection started leaking. Shut the tank, look at the connection. It was obviously loose. I tighten it but it still leaked badly. I had extruded the o-ring. Left the tank shut and exited. Wasn't a big deal but I now make sure that ALL my hoses are tight whenever I service/adjust/change hose on my regs. The problem is that once the o-ring is extruded you can't fix it underwater short of replacing the o-ring.

Same thing happened to me. One of my regs was only hand tightened and came undone when I switched regs. Tried to tighten back up but it kept leaking really bad. Shut tank off and turned. Ever since I carry a stainless adjustable wrench as part of my gear set-up.

[phillip1]

Got it, that was dumb question.

I think that is a very good solution, I will bring a small box wrench and if both regs clog I could use the wrench to swap regs or get one off and feather the tank valve and breeth of the hose to get out. It would save allot of time.

[Slüdge]

this may sound very dumb, what's an open box wrench?

It's a combination wrench. Open-end on one end, box-end on the other. :yawinkle:

[FW]

I often dive in conditions like you describe.

At one time, finger tight was recomended. I had my regs that way, but after loosing two O-rings because the nut loosened up too much, I now tighten them with a wrench. I can still easily remove the cover to clear the exhaust valve.

I also have nylon stocking under the mouthpiece to prevent debris from entering the 2nd stage.

[phillip1]

I often dive in conditions like you describe.

At one time, finger tight was recomended. I had my regs that way, but after loosing two O-rings because the nut loosened up too much, I now tighten them with a wrench. I can still easily remove the cover to clear the exhaust valve.

I also have nylon stocking under the mouthpiece to prevent debris from entering the 2nd stage.

how do you install the stocking under the mouthpiece?, sounds like a great idea.

[Arnold Mesiser]

I often dive in conditions like you describe.

At one time, finger tight was recomended. I had my regs that way, but after loosing two O-rings because the nut loosened up too much, I now tighten them with a wrench. I can still easily remove the cover to clear the exhaust valve.

I also have nylon stocking under the mouthpiece to prevent debris from entering the 2nd stage.



I found landscaping cloth worked really well too,I was using cyklons and it was easy enough to zip tie under the mouth piece.

credit for this idea goes to Duncan Price and Forrest!@ http://www.sump4.com/sidemount/ see the menu

[Mike Edmonston]

how do you install the stocking under the mouthpiece?, sounds like a great idea.

Remove mouthpiece from reg.

Put stocking over inhalation hole.

Replace mouthpiece on reg over stocking.

Install zip tie on mouthpiece.

Trim off excess stocking from reg.

Return stocking to wife's dresser without saying a word :yawinkle:

Enjoy

[skip]

Never tried it, but it seems unlikely to me that fooling with a wrench in no-viz conditions to remove one second stage and replace with a second second stage (also removed from a different first stage), is less time consuming or accident-prone than dismantling a second stage and cleaning it out. Atomics cave ring anyone?

I see a scenario that you have one good reg you are breathing from when you discover the reg you are about to switch to does not breath because it is clogged. So you have to render useless the reg you are breathing from in order to switch it to the hose on the other tank/first stage? And get a wrench out of your pocket to do it?

I think I'd just call the dive and use my remaining gas to exit (since the idea is to keep enough gas in each tank that either one has sufficient gas to exit safely from any point along the way in).

I might take a minute to remove the faceplate of the clogged second stage and see if I could clean it out and get it to work ok before I turned the dive, but that would not take long at all, and I get to keep breathing the working reg while doing it.

-skip

[phillip1]

I will do the stocking reg upgrade.
The reg swaping thing that I am thinking about would be an extreme but possible situation, when I am crawling through thick mud it may be possible to have both regs clog up, in a case like that I would really like to have a wrench available to take a reg off and feather the tank breathing off the hose, beleive me that taking apart the reg to fix it would not really be feasible at this part of the cave, turning off the tank then using a wrench to undo the reg by feel and then feathering the tank and getting would. Also I use XTX 50's and you can't take off the front plate very easily.

[skip]

and should it come down to it, how long does it take to use a serrated edged knife and cut through the lp hose? both regs clogged and now not delivering gas? Will I go for a wrench in the pocket or a knife on my shoulder strap? cut that sucker, feather the tank valve, and get out of there! and why dive with regs you can't open up and clean out? I have three knives (only one wrench?), four if you count the one in the pocket.

i don't mean to be rude, so please don't take it that way; i've been in silted out holes with arms pinned and wondering what to do - at least my regs delivered gas just fine the whole time and a solution came easily in short order, but if the choice is to take tools or just cut and run....well, it's not really a choice for me.

-skip

[FW]

I will do the stocking reg upgrade.
The reg swaping thing that I am thinking about would be an extreme but possible situation, when I am crawling through thick mud it may be possible to have both regs clog up, in a case like that I would really like to have a wrench available to take a reg off and feather the tank breathing off the hose, beleive me that taking apart the reg to fix it would not really be feasible at this part of the cave, turning off the tank then using a wrench to undo the reg by feel and then feathering the tank and getting would. Also I use XTX 50's and you can't take off the front plate very easily.
An easier/safer way to switch 2nd stages underwater is a quick disconect. See this link: http://www.hs-eng.com/ It was designed as bailout for a rebreather, but should work for what you are describing.

[mfascuba]

Poseidon Cyclon 300's - you can unscrew the hockey puck exhaust valve/diaphragm without tools, shake the crap out of the reg and reassemble it in about 15 seconds. Had do do it a few times. The nylon stocking over the mouthpiece opening will keep most debris out and cut the liklihood of having to do this little shuffle.

Mark

[FW]

Poseidon Cyclon 300's - you can unscrew the hockey puck exhaust valve/diaphragm without tools, shake the crap out of the reg and reassemble it in about 15 seconds. Had do do it a few times. The nylon stocking over the mouthpiece opening will keep most debris out and cut the liklihood of having to do this little shuffle.

Mark
You left out a *minor* detail. You have to remove the lock-ring before the dive. I took mine off years ago :-)

I dive Xstreams now, and the exhaust "T" pulls right off and exposes the diaphragm. I still prefer the Cyclon 300 for sumps, as they are almost indestructible.

[phillip1]

and should it come down to it, how long does it take to use a serrated edged knife and cut through the lp hose? both regs clogged and now not delivering gas? Will I go for a wrench in the pocket or a knife on my shoulder strap? cut that sucker, feather the tank valve, and get out of there! and why dive with regs you can't open up and clean out? I have three knives (only one wrench?), four if you count the one in the pocket.

i don't mean to be rude, so please don't take it that way; i've been in silted out holes with arms pinned and wondering what to do - at least my regs delivered gas just fine the whole time and a solution came easily in short order, but if the choice is to take tools or just cut and run....well, it's not really a choice for me.

-skip

You are 100% right, that would be the thing to do. I will keep that in mind as a last resort. Why can't I think of things like that. As for the regs I got them for free as a gift as a Tek3 package but I will change eventually for the reason you mentioned. thanks.

[Jay]

You seem bound and determined to breathe off the hose somehow. That seems way too extreme. :smt102

Another option is plug Forrests QD concept into any LP inflator hose you have, (keeping the reg in a bag in a pocket) or use one of those rubber thingies that plug in and bend to get air (it has a lip to put in your mouth as opposed to the straight nozzle type)

Personally, I have never clogged a second stage that I could not clear.

[Daedalus]

I keep these flat divers wrenches (http://www.divesports.com/Innovative-Scuba-Wrench-Set-p/is-tm-0112.htm) in my wet notes

I have one of the Halcyon wet notes (http://www.halcyon.net/acc/accessories02.shtml#notebook) and the front cover on it has 4 elastic partitions for pencils etc. I keep two pencils in the first partition, used an x-acto knife to cut out the sewing separating the 2nd and 3rd partitions to make one wide partition to keep the wrenches in, and put a couple zip ties in the 4th partition.

[chimie007]

I keep these flat divers wrenches (http://www.divesports.com/Innovative-Scuba-Wrench-Set-p/is-tm-0112.htm) in my wet notes

I have one of the Halcyon wet notes (http://www.halcyon.net/acc/accessories02.shtml#notebook) and the front cover on it has 4 elastic partitions for pencils etc. I keep two pencils in the first partition, used an x-acto knife to cut out the sewing separating the 2nd and 3rd partitions to make one wide partition to keep the wrenches in, and put a couple zip ties in the 4th partition.

You forgot about your "fix a scooter" kit. Although you need to add a few crimps and a pair of pliers in your wet notes.

[phillip1]

I definitely do not want to breath of a hose, I am just saying that as an absolute last resort with 2 clogged regs, zero viz and the prospect of not being able to fix one of the regs (remember you are holding your breath at this point hopping that you can fix one of the regs), yes I would definitely cut the hose and feather the tank and not drown as an option. I know there is almost no chance of clogging 2 regs at the same time but it is a remote possibility and having a plan in case it does is the way to go and I think the cutting the hose thing is an extreme solution but is fast and would work under a very bad situation like this.
Obviously if one reg works breath off that one and get out asap, but that is not the situation I was referring to.

[Jay]

Here's that simple octopus I was referring to.

Air Buddy

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/gallery/files/1/8/airbuddy.jpeg

[Major Restriction]

Another option is to install an h-valve on one of the tanks, and add a third regulator. If the non h-valve reg goes belly-up you could move the third reg over, and if the h-valve reg clogs you still have the backup (third) for that tank.

And if all three fail out, well, it must be your day....

I know a couple of sidemount divers that use this configuration.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Philip

[phillip1]

Both Jay & major restrictions solution sound good, I actually have an h valve here (in DR) so I think I might go that route. Thanks for all the much appreciated advice.

[Major Restriction]

I got h-valve idea from Rich Courtney, but I've seen a couple of other divers with the same rigging. (Maybe Rich is more persuasive).

[SLIM]

There a a few places you can get a adapter to screw on to the Second stage that will allow it to be used with a LP Inflator hose. I know that Gene Melton of Hydrospace sells them. THe guy who machines them cuts them with a double O-Ring. I have only one but plan to get some more. I like it since I can keep a Second stage in my pocket and if there is a problem, is easyer to attach and had off. Since the GEM I use is run bye LP Inflator hoses from my tanks, I havve goten quite a few of them for both BM and my SM set ups. THis way even a stage will have a LP inflator hose on it.

Yes there is another conection point that many would think of as a failure but I think that they are much better then the one that is produced bye 2 other companies (wont mention names) But in the long run for what I do I like them.

Yes I do also play in the tight stuff with some heavy flow and vis of nil. I can see where you are comming from. THis is what I have done and as of now no problems but only made it easyer and to me safer.

SLIM

[phillip1]

Cool, thanks for the info, I may seem kind of paranoid but I know that every time I dive a cave everything that can go wrong at some point in time will go wrong and cover my options as best I can when **** hits the fan. Also the stuff we are diving here now is unexplored sometime very tight & muddy and we don't know what to expect. I tend to like tight & spooky caves though for some reason.
I must say this site is really cool and I really appreciate all the advice, in this case it might just save my life one day.

[NorthWoodsDiver]

omniswivel makes some specially designed and kinda overpriced high flow quick disconnects just for second stages. I think they came about because of the rebreather guys but they would work in this case too.