JB access

[RN]

We're down to 2 keys to the gate at JB...again... I remember when we once had 5 keys. I hope no one is keeping the keys intentionally. My hope is that out of town divers are in a hurry to get a last day of diving in and get on the road to get back home and simply forget to return the keys to the sheriff's office. If you have done this, please drop the keys in a padded envelope and mail them to Edd at Cave Adventurers, 5211 Limestone Lane, Marianna, FL 32446. I'd suggest mailing them to the sheriff's office, but I'm not sure who checks the mail and if the keys would ever get back to the right place. I'll pass it on to Edd tomorrow that he may be receiving some keys in the mail. And in the meantime, if you check into JB and get a key, please dummy lock the gate, even if you're the only one. Sometimes the key is signed out but the divers don't go straight to the park. So those of us that don't get there at 5 in the morning are left waiting for others to finish breakfast and get to the park. If you run into someone at the park that isn't a regular there or here, please pass this information on. This is really getting frustrating and the season is just beginning.

[sskasser]

Thanks for the reminder about "dummy locking" the gate. It is especially frustrating to finish your dive, only to find out you're locked in and can't leave until the team with the key surfaces or returns from getting lunch.

Would it be possible for the SO to start holding a c-card until the key is returned?

[Kenny P.]

We're down to 2 keys to the gate at JB...again... I remember when we once had 5 keys. I hope no one is keeping the keys intentionally. My hope is that out of town divers are in a hurry to get a last day of diving in and get on the road to get back home and simply forget to return the keys to the sheriff's office. If you have done this, please drop the keys in a padded envelope and mail them to Edd at Cave Adventurers, 5211 Limestone Lane, Marianna, FL 32446. I'd suggest mailing them to the sheriff's office, but I'm not sure who checks the mail and if the keys would ever get back to the right place. I'll pass it on to Edd tomorrow that he may be receiving some keys in the mail. And in the meantime, if you check into JB and get a key, please dummy lock the gate, even if you're the only one. Sometimes the key is signed out but the divers don't go straight to the park. So those of us that don't get there at 5 in the morning are left waiting for others to finish breakfast and get to the park. If you run into someone at the park that isn't a regular there or here, please pass this information on. This is really getting frustrating and the season is just beginning.
Rob,
I know the sheriff's dept. takes care of the sign in for the county and this is a courtesy for we divers. I do fault them somewhat with this. We sign in and list the key # we receive. We are all on file! How hard would it be for them to find out who is not returning keys and take appropriate action? This is not a new problem. It has gone on since we first regained access in the late 90's. I bet if we had to leave a c-card with the sheriff's office to get a key, this would end?
We as cavedivers are not being responsible enough. We blame local traffic from the millpond with the trash, while I continue to pick up condom catheters and find wet paper towels in the floor, when no one else is there but cavedivers. Come on people! Please get your **** together or take up golf and stay away from JB.
Thanks for your plea!
Bless,
Kenny P.

[amphipod06]

Rob,
I know the sheriff's dept. takes care of the sign in for the county and this is a courtesy for we divers. I do fault them somewhat with this. We sign in and list the key # we receive. We are all on file! How hard would it be for them to find out who is not returning keys and take appropriate action? This is not a new problem. It has gone on since we first regained access in the late 90's. I bet if we had to leave a c-card with the sheriff's office to get a key, this would end?
We as cavedivers are not being responsible enough. We blame local traffic from the millpond with the trash, while I continue to pick up condom catheters and find wet paper towels in the floor, when no one else is there but cavedivers. Come on people! Please get your **** together or take up golf and stay away from JB.
Thanks for your plea!
Bless,
Kenny P.

What he said...

Dive safe,

Celia

PS Hey Kenny, we have been diving Hole in the Wall of lately, that is an awesome cave, PM me on TDS please. Thanks.

[RN]

Would it be possible for the SO to start holding a c-card until the key is returned?


I bet if we had to leave a c-card with the sheriff's office to get a key, this would end?

They don't even have to do that. Just take an inventory of the keys at the end of the day. If key #4 didn't make it back, see who signed it out and add that name to a list. Send out a letter to the address on file in a couple of days. And the next time they try to sign in, don't let them.


And Kenny, the condom caths definitely belong to cave divers. However, all last winter/spring, I saw people park outside the gate and walk in to fish in the basin (casting right into the opening of the cave) and others pull up to the docks and get out and walk around, use the restrooms, etc. And people can rent out the pavilion between Labor Day and Memorial Day. I always make an effort to clean up trash there. After my gripe last year things got better from the cave divers' side of things. Hopefully the key situation will get better, too. Unfortunately, I don't think they will replace the keys because these are not your typical Ace Hardware cut keys. They are commercial keys that cost $25 or more to replace.

Rob

[sskasser]

They don't even have to do that. Just take an inventory of the keys at the end of the day. If key #4 didn't make it back, see who signed it out and add that name to a list. Send out a letter to the address on file in a couple of days. And the next time they try to sign in, don't let them.

<...snip..>
Rob

That's a great plan, and would be ideal, but there's more time and paperwork involved with mailing letters and maintaining lists. Most cave divers "need" their c-card, and would definitely come back for it.

Shirley

[RAL]

We are lucky to have the access as it is. Edd & others have worked hard to get & expand the access as we have it. The sheriff dispatchers have other things to do besides sorting out our BS.
Lets not add to the list of reasons why this is a pain in the butt for the dispatchers. Grow up & bring the bloody keys back or take up extreme skateboarding in the your mom's drained swimming pool. Geezze


Roger

[Wizard]

I'd like to see "in the event you do not return the key you will have a theft of property 3rd warrant issued for your arrest as you are stealing property from the Jackson County Sheriff's Office" at the bottom of the waver you sign.

[FW]

I'd like to see "in the event you do not return the key you will have a theft of property 3rd warrant issued for your arrest as you are stealing property from the Jackson County Sheriff's Office" at the bottom of the waver you sign.
Does anyone actually read the waiver?

[OutlawCaver]

How about a combination lock? The combination could be changed periodically and on file at the JCSO when you check in. There are combo/key locks available as well if they wanted certain JC personnel to have keys and not have to track combinations.

[sskasser]

How about a combination lock? The combination could be changed periodically and on file at the JCSO when you check in. There are combo/key locks available as well if they wanted certain JC personnel to have keys and not have to track combinations.

:clapper

[BobK]

How about a combination lock? The combination could be changed periodically and on file at the JCSO when you check in. There are combo/key locks available as well if they wanted certain JC personnel to have keys and not have to track combinations.

If the goal is to track divers coming and going, that isn't going to work. It'd be a few hours before the combo was all over these sites :-)

[sskasser]

If the goal is to track divers coming and going, that isn't going to work. It'd be a few hours before the combo was all over these sites :-)

That's what moderators are for.

[FW]

Unfortunatly BobK is right, the combination would leak out, internet or not.

[Line Squirrel]

How about a $50 deposit for the key...they would get them back then I bet :mrgreen:

[Slüdge]

the combination would leak out

I say fine. Let it leak out.

But have deputies patrol the park several times a day, and arrest anybody on the premises that doesn't have a card in their window. :clapper

[FW]

Maybe "we" (the JB cavedivers) could offer to pay for new keys. Then if one goes missing, we can ask the deputy for the name, and "we" could hassle the diver to give it back. A little peer pressure goes a long way :-)

[Kenny P.]

Maybe "we" (the JB cavedivers) could offer to pay for new keys. Then if one goes missing, we can ask the deputy for the name, and "we" could hassle the diver to give it back. A little peer pressure goes a long way :-)
Forest,
Not a bad idea. I remember Scott Hunsucker bought the original high dollar lock and made the first keys, at his own expense. This was after a long and hard fought battle with several gatherings at the JCB meetings, one of which I attended, along with Pat Watson and others. It is a privilege for us to be there if we pay or not. We should go above and beyond to maintain access, as others have done before now.
Thanks,
Kenny P.

[scubabrownie]

I agree with Forrest that we ought to be able to get the divers name and apply a little "peer pressure". I often wonder what kind of person it takes to borrow someone elses property and does not return it. If you have gotten the key from the sheriff's department, take it back (or mail it)...period. The cave divers that I have met in the time I have been cave diving are some of the best, most upstanding people in the world. I have the ultimate respect for those people and a very small handful of very sorrow individuals are going to mess up something that alot of people worked hard to get.

Brian Hamilton

[Spd 135]

How about negotiating a deal that allows us a key to keep. We can pay $175.00 for our pass or if it is current, $25.00 for a key to keep. After that it could be $150.00 unless we lose our key. Even though we have an annual pass we still have to check in if we go through the gate, so this would be no different. It would be a lot of work for someone to try and keep up with the keys. This could be a solution and the spares at the SO could be for people who do not have a pass.

[PacketSniffer]

How about negotiating a deal that allows us a key to keep. We can pay $175.00 for our pass or if it is current, $25.00 for a key to keep. After that it could be $150.00 unless we lose our key. Even though we have an annual pass we still have to check in if we go through the gate, so this would be no different. It would be a lot of work for someone to try and keep up with the keys. This could be a solution and the spares at the SO could be for people who do not have a pass.

I actually like this idea. If you have an annual pass, you get a key. Afterall, the pass means you'll be there on a "regular" basis.

I agree with not putting any work on the sheriff's office to mail reminders out. What I think might go some distance is to ask them to post names/contact info outside the window of those that don't return the keys so the community can harass them.

Edit...

I also like the C-Card deposit idea. You'll definitely be back for that.

[scubabrownie]

I am confused, this is a privilage and that is what it is, not a right. Just throw some more money in and that makes everything ok? Is it such a hassle to pick up a key and drop one off? It was stated that one has to go by the office and sign in, so what is the problem in getting and dropping off a key. If everyone would take some responsibility and do what is right, then there would not be a problem. I mean, the sheriff's department or the county could just say "no", you cannot dive here. Instead, we want to change the rules to accomodate us. I do not understand...we don't want to abide by their rules (even though they are very much in our favor).:smt102

Brian Hamilton

[PacketSniffer]

I am confused


We've gotten to this point because not everyone thinks like you.

I think the cave card deposit should be implemented at the very least. No one is going to walk from that. Collect all the cave cards from everyone that signed in under that key. You'll get the key back every time I'd bet. :yawinkle:

[scubabrownie]

I like your thinking on the C-card idea. I think that is the very least that should be done. It is like Kenny P said, several people got this worked out in in the firsrt place and the very least that we can do is abide by the rules. I know, some will say I am old fashioned, out of touch with reality, but if someone does not return the key and we get the name, and we follow up on it, that will certainly get those an unwelcome invite to JB as well as other areas. JB is an absolutely gorgeous cave and I would hate to think that a few bad apples ruined it for everyone.

Brian

[Line Squirrel]

Maybe "we" (the JB cavedivers) could offer to pay for new keys. Then if one goes missing, we can ask the deputy for the name, and "we" could hassle the diver to give it back. A little peer pressure goes a long way :-)

Ditto, good idea.

[Line Squirrel]

I am confused, this is a privilage and that is what it is, not a right. Just throw some more money in and that makes everything ok?
Brian Hamilton

No, the money (idea) is to make sure you get the key back. The $50 is a DEPOSIT, you get it back when you bring the key back.

C-Card or cash, either way you need some.....incentive ;) It's too easy not to drive back across town I guess. We put a keyed lock on Cow a couple years back because the combo wasn't working with the increase in the cave diving population. THEN, we had to start holding a C-card to get the keys back. This has seemed to work out pretty good, it's not a cure all. They usually call back and make arrangements.

[scubabrownie]

If the money was left as a deposit, I agree. I think the thought posted earlier was that someone could pay a little more the first year and keep the key. I disagree with that.

Brian

[PacketSniffer]

No, the money (idea) is to make sure you get the key back. The $50 is a DEPOSIT, you get it back when you bring the key back.

C-Card or cash, either way you need some.....incentive ;)

But Mike, $50 is too easy for some to walk away from especially if there's a group. They can all chip in to recover. A cave card was a lot of hard work (well, for most...lol) and money; MUCH more than $50. Of course, they can request a replacement, but it's a huge hassle. Plus, they wouldn't be able to dive at certain places (like JB) until they replaced it. They wouldn't be doing that a lot. :-)

I would be royally p$ssed if we lost access to JB. It's my favorite cave and luckily the closest one to me.

If the missing keys do not show up shortly, I'm willing to chip in for one replacement key. The money is not worth the hassle to me to not have a key available. I'll send a U-O-ME to the diver that neglected to return his/her key if I get contact info. ;-)

[scubabrownie]

I will certainly pitch in to get new keys if they are lost, but I am willing to pitch in to go door to door to get the keys back, and I think there are a few others that are willing to do that too. It only takes getting with the sheriff's department and getting some names. All keys are signed out...

Brian Hamilton

[Kaneo]

i will pitch in as well. JB is my favorite cave.

[RN]

I also posted this on TDS and some good ideas have come out of both forums. I'm going to see if Chuck Hatcher, the park manager, will be willing to make more keys and ask him what the cost would be. I'd like to see a total of at least 7 sets of keys. I remember when there were 5 sets, there were still times that wasn't enough. Once I get the information, I'll post it here and on TDS and take up a collection. I'm also going to talk to Chuck about the possibility of someone in the cave diving community monitoring the key sign out. This would involve someone doing a key count at least once a week and if there's a set missing, doing the follow up to get it back. I live in Jackson County and am willing to volunteer my time to do this.

[FW]

How about negotiating a deal that allows us a key to keep. We can pay $175.00 for our pass or if it is current, $25.00 for a key to keep. After that it could be $150.00 unless we lose our key. Even though we have an annual pass we still have to check in if we go through the gate, so this would be no different. It would be a lot of work for someone to try and keep up with the keys. This could be a solution and the spares at the SO could be for people who do not have a pass.
Not a bad idea. Someone needs to pass this stuff along to Edd. He has the best chance to convince the SO.

[Spd 135]

I figure, in the end, personal responsibility is the issue. If someone goes through the gate and doesn't check in as required, let the SO handle that the same as solo diving in Peacock. This will keep the responsible rule following cave divers from being without keys. I am going over tomorrow and will suggest it to Edd. Today is our last storm day here, (7 / 12 hour days) fortunately nothing major from Gustav.


Not a bad idea. Someone needs to pass this stuff along to Edd. He has the best chance to convince the SO.

[DeWayne]

Maybe "we" (the JB cavedivers) could offer to pay for new keys. Then if one goes missing, we can ask the deputy for the name, and "we" could hassle the diver to give it back. A little peer pressure goes a long way :-)

That offer (paying to have more keys made) has been made several times before, and impolitely turned down each time. Truth is the SO just wants the cash, they don't want to be bothered with the details. Privacy issues would likely prevent them from randomly giving out names. Best bet is to lobby the County Commission to put someone in charge that actually gives a darn.

[cloudboy55]

i will pitch in as well. JB is my favorite cave.

Count me in also. I'll help pay for new keys and a new lock if that's necessary.

Daren Gray

[RN]

Not a bad idea. Someone needs to pass this stuff along to Edd. He has the best chance to convince the SO.

Except that people will be likely to abuse it. The temptation to not drive to the SO and just go to the park might be too great for some. Things like that happening would only lose the access.


That offer (paying to have more keys made) has been made several times before, and impolitely turned down each time. Truth is the SO just wants the cash, they don't want to be bothered with the details. Privacy issues would likely prevent them from randomly giving out names. Best bet is to lobby the County Commission to put someone in charge that actually gives a darn.

If that's the case, I won't be renewing my annual pass this month. It costs too much for 2 of us to only go sign in one day in October or November and find out the last 2 sets of keys are gone and no one knows when they'll be replaced...and there won't be a refund. I'd rather put the $300 towards a jon boat.

[DeWayne]

Except that people will be likely to abuse it. The temptation to not drive to the SO and just go to the park might be too great for some. Things like that happening would only lose the access.



If that's the case, I won't be renewing my annual pass this month. It costs too much for 2 of us to only go sign in one day in October or November and find out the last 2 sets of keys are gone and no one knows when they'll be replaced...and there won't be a refund. I'd rather put the $300 towards a jon boat.

Now you're thinking. I know a lot of really good folks in the Marianna / Jackson County area, been going there since the early 70's. But after the rudeness encountered through the SO last News Years, I will personally never spend another dime in that county until they elect a Sheriff who staffs his/her dept with people that actually want to serve the public and pay attention to what the County Commission is trying to accomplish. I applaud the commission for everything they have done, but when you have a SO running the show that openly admits to not attending the meetings, not trying to find out what has been passed, and really not giving a $hi+ period since it is not part of their job description (yes, a deputy said all this and more to two of us while the outlaw McDaniels stood there and agreed with her and stated he would do whatever the hell he wanted to do) then their accomplishments become moot. So thanks but no thanks, I'll spend my sparse cash elsewhere where it goes to support a JUST administration.

[Kenny P.]

Now you're thinking. I know a lot of really good folks in the Marianna / Jackson County area, been going there since the early 70's. But after the rudeness encountered through the SO last News Years, I will personally never spend another dime in that county until they elect a Sheriff who staffs his/her dept with people that actually want to serve the public and pay attention to what the County Commission is trying to accomplish. I applaud the commission for everything they have done, but when you have a SO running the show that openly admits to not attending the meetings, not trying to find out what has been passed, and really not giving a $hi+ period since it is not part of their job description (yes, a deputy said all this and more to two of us while the outlaw McDaniels stood there and agreed with her and stated he would do whatever the hell he wanted to do) then their accomplishments become moot. So thanks but no thanks, I'll spend my sparse cash elsewhere where it goes to support a JUST administration.

DeWayne,
Johnny Mac has done a hell of a job as Sheriff for the people of Jackson County for many years. He has experienced great personal loss over his lifetime, with the murder of his father and over the last year, his wife. Is he perfect? No! Has he grown a little power hungry over his many years in office? Probably! On a personal note he and his late wife Ms. Millie sure were a Blessing to me many years back, when I had one of the worst days of my life at JB. Sheriff McDaniels will be retiring after this term. The new sheriff has probably already been voted in, in Jackson County? Edd or Rob or one of the other locals will have to fill in the facts on that.
Any way they never had to take care of our diving business. I remember being treated harshly several times while checking in. It was by one particular lady deputy. I showered her with kindness over the years and that whole persona disappeared, and was replaced with a smile and pleasant experience. We have 24 / 7 / 365 access now. I can deal with the SO until we work to accomplish a better system with the county.
Hope all is well buddy. On the Zombie Squad and heading down for nap.
Bless,
Kenny P.

[FW]

I have to agree with Kenny here. Johnny Mac has been nothing but nice to me. He is also mostly responsible for getting JB open for diving. It was closed for years after an accident in the late 60, and Sheck Exley worked with Johnny Mac to get JB opened for diving.

Kenny, I had a pretty bad day at JB once, I wonder if it was for the same sort of reason, PM on the way.

[RN]

DeWayne,
Johnny Mac has done a hell of a job as Sheriff for the people of Jackson County for many years. He has experienced great personal loss over his lifetime, with the murder of his father and over the last year, his wife. Is he perfect? No! Has he grown a little power hungry over his many years in office? Probably! On a personal note he and his late wife Ms. Millie sure were a Blessing to me many years back, when I had one of the worst days of my life at JB. Sheriff McDaniels will be retiring after this term. The new sheriff has probably already been voted in, in Jackson County? Edd or Rob or one of the other locals will have to fill in the facts on that.
Any way they never had to take care of our diving business. I remember being treated harshly several times while checking in. It was by one particular lady deputy. I showered her with kindness over the years and that whole persona disappeared, and was replaced with a smile and pleasant experience. We have 24 / 7 / 365 access now. I can deal with the SO until we work to accomplish a better system with the county.
Hope all is well buddy. On the Zombie Squad and heading down for nap.
Bless,
Kenny P.

I agree, Johnny Mac isn't the problem. He's got bigger things on his plate right now and doesn't need to focus attention on a few missing sets of keys.

BTW, the election hasn't happened yet. We just had the primaries last week. We have a couple more months until we found out who the new sheriff in town will be.

[Kenny P.]

I agree, Johnny Mac isn't the problem. He's got bigger things on his plate right now and doesn't need to focus attention on a few missing sets of keys.

BTW, the election hasn't happened yet. We just had the primaries last week. We have a couple more months until we found out who the new sheriff in town will be.

I just remember seeing all the vote for me for sheriff posters the past few times in Marianna. Thanks for the update. Things are getting better all along. I'm sure we can find a solution to the key problem at JB. I remember Chuck Hatcher mentioning an electronic combination lock of some sort, being considered?
Thanks,
Kenny P.

[RN]

I've heard of the electronic gate. I heard it was already purchased and ready to install. I've also heard it hasn't been purchased yet. Until I see it in place...

And if it's a card swipe then we'll just have to deal with cards not being returned!

[Kenny P.]

I've heard of the electronic gate. I heard it was already purchased and ready to install. I've also heard it hasn't been purchased yet. Until I see it in place...

And if it's a card swipe then we'll just have to deal with cards not being returned!
Rob,
Some rumors may be good, I hope! I think I remember Chuck mentioning a touch keypad electronic gate? I'll stick with you on the when I see it...
You know the whole missing key thing reminds me of a saying that came from the government trying to idiot proof the world with laws. You can't fix STUPID!
Thanks,
Kenny P.

[Captain Bil]

The system used at Tyndall Air Force Base Marina works very well. There is an electronically controlled gate to the members only area. Paid up members get a personalized 4 digit combination upon payment of dues. Everyone's is unique, and only paid up members get in (Usually the last 4 of your SSN). It is a simple programming trick from there to rig up a sign in from the key pad. When you mash in your combo, you are automatically registered in for that date/time stamp. As the French say - "Voy-Lay"

[RN]

I was hoping for a system like that with the new gate. It just hasn't happened yet. And I'm not sure when it will happen...or if it will...

[Line Squirrel]

We talked about a key pad for our gun club, decided not to after talking with others who had tried it.

The problem is vandalism. Some moron will poor soda or super glue into the thing or beat the crap out of it with a baseball bat. :mad:

[wb416]

No, the money (idea) is to make sure you get the key back. The $50 is a DEPOSIT, you get it back when you bring the key back.

C-Card or cash, either way you need some.....incentive ;) It's too easy not to drive back across town I guess. We put a keyed lock on Cow a couple years back because the combo wasn't working with the increase in the cave diving population. THEN, we had to start holding a C-card to get the keys back. This has seemed to work out pretty good, it's not a cure all. They usually call back and make arrangements.

One problem with the $50 deposit is that it discourages passing the key to other cave divers when you leave. With no deposit, I'm more likely to go up to others that I don't know well and offer to pass the key to them (like I did a few times this past week). The SO made a note about who I passed the key to.

IF the SO will give out the names, peer pressure and personal accountability might be easy and effective steps to take.

[jimdiverman]

One problem with the $50 deposit is that it discourages passing the key to other cave divers when you leave. With no deposit, I'm more likely to go up to others that I don't know well and offer to pass the key to them (like I did a few times this past week). The SO made a note about who I passed the key to.

IF the SO will give out the names, peer pressure and personal accountability might be easy and effective steps to take.

I wonder how much a single IP camera (PTZ) and remote gate operation with 2-way voice communication back to the S.O. would cost to install there. You would have positive visual verification of identity (picture and profile on file at S.O.) and manual control of the gate by the S.O. coming and going. It would be no different than walking up to the counter at the S.O. now except that you don't need to go out of the way to do it coming or going. You just setup your initial profile with the S.O. the way you do now (Everyone that dives there has already done this). Instead of giving you a key, they let you in the gate over an IP connection. They will also need to let you in and out of the gate when you need to go to Edd's for fills or to lunch, and that is a drawback because it takes a little more time for sheriff's personnel, but it allows authorized persons to have access any time. Perhaps a license plate camera like they use on highway systems and airport parking lots would serve as entry/exit verification as well. Hmmm....

Who can I talk to about this if I may know of a way to get a system like this setup at JB? Is there someone at the S.O. handling this? Do you think they would be willing to maintain an internet connection for this at the park? Do you think there would be interest in a system like this?

Thoughts?

[RAL]

I wonder how much a single IP camera (PTZ) and remote gate operation with 2-way voice communication back to the S.O. would cost to install there. You would have positive visual verification of identity (picture and profile on file at S.O.) and manual control of the gate by the S.O. coming and going. It would be no different than walking up to the counter at the S.O. now except that you don't need to go out of the way to do it coming or going. You just setup your initial profile with the S.O. the way you do now (Everyone that dives there has already done this). Instead of giving you a key, they let you in the gate over an IP connection. They will also need to let you in and out of the gate when you need to go to Edd's for fills or to lunch, and that is a drawback because it takes a little more time for sheriff's personnel, but it allows authorized persons to have access any time. Perhaps a license plate camera like they use on highway systems and airport parking lots would serve as entry/exit verification as well. Hmmm....

Who can I talk to about this if I may know of a way to get a system like this setup at JB? Is there someone at the S.O. handling this? Do you think they would be willing to maintain an internet connection for this at the park? Do you think there would be interest in a system like this?

Thoughts?

Hey Jim
we do not need to over do this. We all would do well to remember a few things. This system was setup with J Macs approval, he will no longer be Sheriff soon.
Some of the dispatchers would rather not have to deal with this so if you add more to it & change the boss it may not turn out well for the cavers. Let Edd work with Chuck Hatcher & the JCSD. He has done a great job. Adding twenty squeaking wheels will not help sort this out.

Roger

[Line Squirrel]

One problem with the $50 deposit is that it discourages passing the key to other cave divers when you leave. With no deposit, I'm more likely to go up to others that I don't know well and offer to pass the key to them (like I did a few times this past week). The SO made a note about who I passed the key to.

IF the SO will give out the names, peer pressure and personal accountability might be easy and effective steps to take.

The original deposit can be assigned to a key with a number rather than a person.

If I give a $50 deposit at the SO for key #3 and pass the key off to someone at the park I don't know, I'm going to want $50 from you for the key. The second team can get their $50 back from the SO when they turn in the key??

[jimdiverman]

we do not need to over do this. Adding twenty squeaking wheels will not help sort this out.

Roger

This is a public forum for discussion. I haven't "squeaked" to anyone, but to throw my last post up here for comment.

My concern is that without positive verification at the park, the system we have now is going to end up being the only one that will be acceptable to the sheriff's office. All the key codes and card swipe systems have drawbacks unless there is positive identification. Having individuals show their faces at the sheriff's office and sign in provides that positive verification. Short of posting an officer 24 hours a day at the park just for divers (NOT!), a remote system or sign in at the SO are the only ways to get that consistently with a reasonable measure of certainty.

[Line Squirrel]

I like to hear all ideas.

I was an automated machine tool designer (draftsman) in the Detroit area for 20+ years. I came up with some pretty wacky ideas and was criticized from time to time but over the years we got some good ideas from some of those nutty concepts. Before long we had a solution to a seemingly impossible task.

I'm not saying anybodies ideas here have been nutty, but I think you get my point.

[jeandiver]

I like to hear all ideas.

I was an automated machine tool designer (draftsman) in the Detroit area for 20+ years. I came up with some pretty wacky ideas and was criticized from time to time but over the years we got some good ideas from some of those nutty concepts. Before long we had a solution to a seemingly impossible task.

I'm not saying anybodies ideas here have been nutty, but I think you get my point.

NOW I know why I let the wiser of us work with the hardware side of things (like Mike). Glad I stick with the softer (Software) parts. (SMILE).

What do they say , "90 percent inspiration , 10 percent persperation"

Jelly Bean

[RAL]

This is a public forum for discussion. I haven't "squeaked" to anyone, but to throw my last post up here for comment.

My concern is that without positive verification at the park, the system we have now is going to end up being the only one that will be acceptable to the sheriff's office. All the key codes and card swipe systems have drawbacks unless there is positive identification. Having individuals show their faces at the sheriff's office and sign in provides that positive verification. Short of posting an officer 24 hours a day at the park just for divers (NOT!), a remote system or sign in at the SO are the only ways to get that consistently with a reasonable measure of certainty.

Jim I did not mean to say you had. Bounce all the ideas you want off the wall but sometimes well intended people can & do undo the work of others.
My point is twenty people do not need to start squeaking to the Sheriff, Chuck Hatcher ect it will not help. Edd is considered a local now. He has a good working relationship with partys involved. He has already changed many minds about cave diving in the county. Like it or not input from "outsiders" carrys little weight in Jackson county. This is a spot that is dear to many local people, most could not care less if you do like like the way things are set up. One out of towner "squeaking" at one of the meetings a few years back almost got the whole show shut down *****ing about the fees.
Tread lightly you do not understand local politics.

Roger

[FW]

Hey Jim
we do not need to over do this. We all would do well to remember a few things. This system was setup with J Macs approval, he will no longer be Sheriff soon.
Some of the dispatchers would rather not have to deal with this so if you add more to it & change the boss it may not turn out well for the cavers. Let Edd work with Chuck Hatcher & the JCSD. He has done a great job. Adding twenty squeaking wheels will not help sort this out.

Roger
With any luck the new sheriff will turn the whole thing over to the park dept :-)

[jimdiverman]

Jim I did not mean to say you had. Bounce all the ideas you want off the wall but sometimes well intended people can & do undo the work of others.

Roger

Your point is noted. It sounds like there has been no decision made, so the work of others is a work in progress. Again, no one disrupted anything by posting in this open forum. This is a prime reason for this forum to exist.

[jimdiverman]

Tread lightly you do not understand local politics.

Roger

I would let this drop, but it sure seems like you keep telling me to shut up, and that does not sit well with me. My original post in this thread had nothing to do with politics. It was a discussion of a possible solution that I know a lot about at a location where I dive frequently. In fact, my last two dives at the Mill Pond were Hole in the Wall and Twin, and my dive buddy was Edd Sorenson. That was 2 weeks ago.

This is an open forum and as far as I can tell, the only person with ruffled feathers by my posting is you, Roger. It was meant to be a constructive post in an open forum, not a statement of what must be done. I ended the post with about 4 questions. All I have gotten from you is stifling criticism telling me to "tread lightly". LOL

[RAL]

I would let this drop, but it sure seems like you keep telling me to shut up, and that does not sit well with me. My original post in this thread had nothing to do with politics. It was a discussion of a possible solution that I know a lot about at a location where I dive frequently. In fact, my last two dives at the Mill Pond were Hole in the Wall and Twin, and my dive buddy was Edd Sorenson. That was 2 weeks ago.

This is an open forum and as far as I can tell, the only person with ruffled feathers by my posting is you, Roger. It was meant to be a constructive post in an open forum, not a statement of what must be done. I ended the post with about 4 questions. All I have gotten from you is stifling criticism telling me to "tread lightly". LOL

I am aware that you dive with Edd. I am not attacking you or any one else. I am just adding my 2 cents here. I have a pretty good understanding of the history & the players involved. Talk all you want but IMHO it would be a mistake if the JCSD started getting an ear full every time they turned around from some diver unhappy with this that or the other. There is already someone in the community that has a good relationship with the powers that be, who has made great progress in the county. I for one would hate to see it undone. "Tread lightly" is not a threat it just means to think before acting, nothing more.
If my opinion offends you I am sorry it was not my intent.:smt102

Roger

[OFG-1]

You guys are too complicated. Just install a coin operated gate. Just pull up, insert your $15.00 worth of quarters per person, and you are in. And think about it, no one in the world except cave divers would be crazy enough to shove 60 quarters into a slot to get into the park.

Its kinda like this, only different:

http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/saddles/images/toll.jpg

[RN]

I've talked to Edd about this and he will be talking to Chuck. Edd thinks 8 sets of keys total will be about all they will be willing to deal with. Edd is willing to bring the key to the locksmith himself and handle the key cutting. We just need to hear from Chuck. As soon as I hear something more, I'll update here.

[Dave]

I like to hear all ideas.

I was an automated machine tool designer (draftsman) in the Detroit area for 20+ years. I came up with some pretty wacky ideas and was criticized from time to time but over the years we got some good ideas from some of those nutty concepts. Before long we had a solution to a seemingly impossible task.

I'm not saying anybodies ideas here have been nutty, but I think you get my point.

Mate, you nailed it.

[Kenny P.]

You guys are too complicated. Just install a coin operated gate. Just pull up, insert your $15.00 worth of quarters per person, and you are in. And think about it, no one in the world except cave divers would be crazy enough to shove 60 quarters into a slot to get into the park.

Its kinda like this, only different:

http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/saddles/images/toll.jpg
" Damn somebody's got to go back to town and get a **** load of dimes"
Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles