Who is the Cave/CCR class geared toward?

[Line Squirrel]

Please read the question carefully.

The intent here is NOT to debate the need but to define what the intent was when this class was created and the standards written.

I have talked to a number of individuals (instructors, BoD members & Joe Diver) and have gotten a different answer from each.

There is obviously a wide difference in opinion in just why such a cert/class was created.

I'm not even sure how to vote because I have heard at least two completely different answers from people who are supposed to know.

[Dsix36]

In my opinion, learning cave AND CCR at the same time is a bit too much task loading for most people.

If you are cave certifed and CCR certified seperately, then there is no reason to get a CCR Cave card unless you are just a card collector.

It for for a CCR diver who wants to learn cave diving.

I think the caves are not the right place to learn CCR either.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[Nick Mislak]

I took the CCR cave class together with the CCR trimix crossover class as a package deal. I took away good information from both of them. The ccr cave class was dedicated mostly to gas planning under a variety of different situations, i.e mixed teams and ccr teams. The importance of adequate bailout was the most important of course, but it was good practice to calculate team ccr bailout and practice passing stage bottles back and forth between ccr divers simulating an emergency situation and exiting the cave. CCR trimix to me was pretty much common sense if you already are oc full trimix, just flush the loop several times with your mix and add o2 to keep po2 up at the surface. Plan adequate bailout in event of a total loop failure and have a backup set of ccr/scr/oc tables.

Nick

[Slüdge]

Can I change my vote? Either I didn't notice the third response, or it has been modified since I voted.

I think it nails it.

[contender]

Please read the question carefully.

The intent here is NOT to debate the need but to define what the intent was when this class was created and the standards written.

I have talked to a number of individuals (instructors, BoD members & Joe Diver) and have gotten a different answer from each.

There is obviously a wide difference in opinion in just why such a cert/class was created.

I'm not even sure how to vote because I have heard at least two completely different answers from people who are supposed to know.

Mike,
My opinion is worth what people paid for it, but as a CCR Diver and Cave Diver, I had no problem taking my breather in a cave after about 30 hours on it. I personally think that if your CCR Instructor did his job, you will be competent enough to dive it in a cave(if your cave certified of course), and you dive the caves more than once a year. As always proper planning is the major part of the dive, so execute this part well and you will be prepared to handle the situation no matter how bad it is.

[MengTze]

CCR cave is for CCR divers who want to be cave certified. If you are cave certified and mix certified, adding a CCR cert to that should give you all the tools needed to do whatever dive. Of course you have to keep things up to date and actually do the dives rather than just have the cards.....

[Line Squirrel]

Can I change my vote? Either I didn't notice the third response, or it has been modified since I voted.

I think it nails it.

Yea, I reworded it and tried to reset the field to allow everyone to re-vote. If you PM me the way you originally voted I'll chage it. You can probably edit it yourself being a Mod.

[jimdiverman]

Every ccr dive I've done outside of class has been in caves.

But not at Ginnie??? I take it...

[caverkevin]

But not at Ginnie??? I take it...

Why would that be? I have done a bunch of CCR diving at Ginnie without issue.


Cheers!!

Kevin

[Line Squirrel]

But not at Ginnie??? I take it...

Not tried yet. I live 1-1/2 miles from Peacock = $43.00/year Vs $350.00/year + $4/gal gas (48 miles one way) :roll:

A single day at Ginnie, with gas, would cost me almost $50

I have no problem diving Devil's from Ginnie on any config. including ccr, it's a fantastic cave, just haven't made it over that way yet.

[amphipod06]

Mike,
The Cave/CCR course may be of value to those CCR divers that are NOT previously cave trained. However, if you have been cave diving and are Tmx certified and have been doing this for a while and you then get trained in a CRR I do not see what more a Cave?CCR class will do for you.
The gas planning issues should be 2nd nature to someone who already cave dives and does Tmx anyway, CCR should not change how you plan for gas in a cave anyway. You still plan for enough bailout from the farthest point you are going in the cave already. There are some buoyancy issues when you first make the switch but anyone with enough experience under their belt can sort those out in a short time (like during CCR class).
Anyway, there is a place for that class but it should not be REQUIRED of those who are already Full Cave and just happen to also be CCR trained, it's redundant and possibly just another step in the Padification of cave diving. What are we going for next? CCR/Cave DPV pilot, Cave/CCR Sidemount ??????PLEEEEZE!!!

Dive safe,

Celia
(now digging my Nomex out)

[Line Squirrel]

C,

This is what I was trying to avoid, a debate...you're preaching to the choir.

I wanted to see if there is not a clear understanding with either the general diving community or even the agencies own instructors about why this class even exits.

[jimdiverman]

Mike,
The Cave/CCR course may be of value to those CCR divers that are NOT previously cave trained. However, if you have been cave diving and are Tmx certified and have been doing this for a while and you then get trained in a CRR I do not see what more a Cave?CCR class will do for you.
The gas planning issues should be 2nd nature to someone who already cave dives and does Tmx anyway, CCR should not change how you plan for gas in a cave anyway. You still plan for enough bailout from the farthest point you are going in the cave already. There are some buoyancy issues when you first make the switch but anyone with enough experience under their belt can sort those out in a short time (like during CCR class).
Anyway, there is a place for that class but it should not be REQUIRED of those who are already Full Cave and just happen to also be CCR trained, it's redundant and possibly just another step in the Padification of cave diving. What are we going for next? CCR/Cave DPV pilot, Cave/CCR Sidemount ??????PLEEEEZE!!!

Dive safe,

Celia
(now digging my Nomex out)

Celia brings up some good points. I am holding off buying a CCR until I can buy a side mount one. I know for a fact there are side mount kits out there already. What if a full cave diver who was trained on a backmount CCR now wants to dive a side mount rig? Is that also another certification? You could carry this to the nth degree. How many instructors are there in the whole world who have all these instructor certs? Does this also imply that an instructor needs to get a sidemount CCR/Full cave instructor certification that is different than an independent sidemount CCR instructor certifcation and a independent full cave instructor certification?

[jimdiverman]

From the CDS website:

Rebreather Cave Diver: The purpose of the Rebreather Cave Diver specialty course is to provide divers with the basic knowledge and skills necessary to safely utilize rebreathers (either semi-closed or fully-closed) in overhead environments while under the supervision of a Rebreather Cave Diver Specialty Instructor. The diver will be exposed to the special hazards involved in using rebreathers in overhead environments, as well as the techniques and procedures used to mitigate the risks to a reasonable level. The program will also instruct candidates in how to plan overhead environment dives with open circuit dive partners.

Mike,

Does this mean the instructor went back and got a CCR/Cave instructor cert before they started teaching this course?

[amphipod06]

Fair enough, I'll take the nomex off.
I think you are stirring a hornets nest though.

Dive safe, see you soon.

Celia

PS For the record, all my CCR dives have been done in caves with the most recent exception of the dives (full wreck penetration) in Chuuk.....

[Line Squirrel]

I think you are stirring a hornets nest though.


Which is exactly why in my initial post I asked that this NOT be a debate, just a poll...too late :mrgreen:

I would have locked it to just a vote with no posts or comments if I could have :)



Mike,

Does this mean the instructor went back and got a CCR/Cave instructor cert before they started teaching this course?

How or why would I know? I'm trying to figure out why the class even exists in the first place LOL! Good question though!

[caverkevin]

I would say they exist so a student can receive legitimate instruction from a knowledgeable instructor that has liability coverage. While there is a bunch of us that have little need for another course in diving. I am sure there is another bunch of divers, both cave trained and not cave trained, that would not go into a cave with a CCR without formal training. For those people having ability to take a CCR cave course or upgrade is a valuable option. Giving them exposure and experience in a structured environment. Much better choice than bubba with a vacuum cleaner taking some noob's on a rebreather cave dive.

Cheers!!!

Kevin





How or why would I know? I'm trying to figure out why the class even exists in the first place LOL! Good question though!

[lamont]

I've talked with one instructor that had a hand in writing the standards and claims that you need the cave/ccr cert EVEN THOUGH you were already certified full cave and ccr but not at the same time.

Is there an agency out there that after you are full cave, trimix and (optionally) ccr will give you a "certified grownup" card -- so that you take additional courses as you determine they will be useful to you and not because the agency thinks it is in your best interest?

The cave-ccr course seems like a great idea for divers who are cave certified and ccr certified and have found a cave-ccr instructor that they think would be valuable. But after having gone through full cave, and having gone through ccr instruction shouldn't you be able to figure out -- for yourself -- if you need that course independently of an agency telling you that you need it?

[MengTze]

Mike,
.... What are we going for next? CCR/Cave DPV pilot, Cave/CCR Sidemount ??????PLEEEEZE!!!

Dive safe,

Celia
(now digging my Nomex out)

The pan-ultimum card would be the 'CCR-solo-sidemount-adv.trimix- DPV- stage-cave card'.

I want one.

PS Kevin, the eye is back to normal.... can't wait to do dives in the framework of the certification above.:yawinkle:

[Nick Mislak]

The pan-ultimum card would be the 'CCR-solo-sidemount-adv.trimix- DPV- stage-cave card'.

I want one.

PS Kevin, the eye is back to normal.... can't wait to do dives in the framework of the certification above.:yawinkle:

You better get an attorney involved for the copyright, PADI could be stealing that from you someday.

Nick

[jpdiver]

If you are both cave and CCR trained and competant in both, I see no need for cave CCR. I understand Bailout considerations are different for cave but I think that is common sense and experience to figure it out.

Hopefully, popular cave sites such as Ginnie won't start requiring it.

[Mike Edmonston]

Shouldn't the class really be called "CCR Cave Bailout procedures"?

I don't see how you would learn anything else if you're already cave and CCR trained. :smt102

Just my .02psi

[drtyjrzy]

I don't cave dive and i'm just learning CCR...however this seems like a way for the agencies to pull a few more dollars out you CCR/cavers pockets......if I got on a boat, and the capt. told me he needed to see my CCR/wreck diver card I'd laugh at him.

[jimdiverman]

I don't cave dive and i'm just learning CCR...however this seems like a way for the agencies to pull a few more dollars out you CCR/cavers pockets......if I got on a boat, and the capt. told me he needed to see my CCR/wreck diver card I'd laugh at him.

Good point! Why isn't there a CCR/Wreck card if there needs to be a CCR/Cave card?

[drtyjrzy]

Good point! Why isn't there a CCR/Wreck card if there needs to be a CCR/Cave card?


Bite your tounge man!!!!!! I was trying to help you guys out!!

[jimdiverman]

Bite your tounge man!!!!!! I was trying to help you guys out!!

I agree with you. I am sure they have already thought of this anyway. There are an almost infinite number of combinations that can be made with advanced certifications. Forcing all of us to get trained on every single one of them is the goal of those who think they make the rules (and collect our money).