P-Valve IRAP

[Widiver_Paul]

After reading this report in the IRAP (http://www.cavediver.net/irap/irap_disp.asp?IRAPID=136) about a severe bladder infection, I was struck wondering if this was a balanced, or unbalanced valve and whether either one would have made a difference. Has anyone else had this type of problem? I need to know before I install one in my suit, now that my dives are getting to the 70+ minute average point.

[Genesis]

I don't think it would matter, since it appears that the tubing was kinked between the cath and the exit point.

I always make a point of attempting to "use" mine before beginning the dive, and to begin s.l.o.w.l.y., just to detect such an occurrance. It had not occurred to me that I'd get the 'backup' situation with a kink though - my fear was one of blowing off the cath and the resultant huge mess in the suit.

No problems with mine yet, but I'll be even more vigilant with it after reading this - that does NOT sound like fun!

[resolute]

That has to be the scariest IRAP I have read in recent memory!

I had the thing "balloon up" before (before it finally cleared) - now I'll really be extra vigilant - Thanks for warning us all!

JB

[FW]

Re-circulating urine in sterile tubing shouldn't cause an infection, but if the tube had been used in the past and not washed out... :oops:

Moral, rinse the tube out after every use, with *clean* water. It wouldn't hurt to disinfect it occasionly. Maybe Lee, or a paramedic could suggest some disinfectant that wouldn't cause another problem. In any case that should be rinsed out as well.

[Neptuno]

Re-circulating urine in sterile tubing shouldn't cause an infection, but if the tube had been used in the past and not washed out... :oops:

Moral, rinse the tube out after every use, with *clean* water. It wouldn't hurt to disinfect it occasionly. Maybe Lee, or a paramedic could suggest some disinfectant that wouldn't cause another problem. In any case that should be rinsed out as well.

I think that is the solution..

same with your thingy, if you dont wash it, soon or late will fall off.. :?

[Angie Reim]

Poor guy. Bladder infections aren't common for you all (men) so I understand how horrible it was. Thank God he came out of it okay. I admire his willingness to report the incident for the edification to all. Cleanliness is important but don't forget that all it takes is just a little of the normal bacterial load from skin to cause an infection. I think he was screwed the moment it all backed up no matter how clean the plastic tubing might of been. Gives me the 'willies' just thinking about how that must of felt. Perhaps my latest penis envy is misplaced and I should embrace those Depends as not such a bad alternative. 8)

[normblitch]

Perhaps my latest penis envy is misplaced and I should embrace those Depends as not such a bad alternative

One of my Dive Buddies just got a dry (fabric) suit recently, and was beginning to consider a p-valve or cath...I'm trying to tell him that Depends are not that bad an option for short (90' or less) exposures, and besides, most of the places we dive HAVE bath houses for "gearing up" around the midsection...<g>

Have I steered him wrong? (I'm NOT a drysuit user)

Norm

[Genesis]

I vastly prefer using the cath now that I've put one in.

I resisted for quite a while. You know - new suit, you're going to intentionally hole it, etc etc etc.

Staring at $1500 about to intentionally put a hole in it, well, that takes a few stones to do.

Having done it and lived with it for a while, I wish I had done it sooner.

Being able to hydrate freely and frequently, without concern about whether or how often I will have to get rid of the rented hydration supply, is a huge plus. It leads to better behavior in terms of keeping your hydration level adequate.

If I intend to be in the water for more than 30-40 minutes, or where I cannot easily doff the suit for any reason between dives, I hook it up. The latter on cooler days is a huge bonus, because I can walk around in the suit with the zip partially open for heat level control, yet keep it on to avoid getting cold.

Of course in the summer its the other way around - I want out of that beast. But right now, with temps being cooler, the wetsuit folks really get hammered on surface intervals, while I'm comfortable staying zipped.

I wouldn't do the "depends" deal.... just not for me.

BTW, one other thnig to keep in mind. I got one cath that had "improper" adhesive put in at the factory. Basically, it was all on one part of the condom, with none on the other side. This was immediately apparent after putting it on - about half of it was not "stuck" and thus not sealed at all - of course then you have to take it off, and put on another one, because it's gonna leak bigtime if you try to use it that way.

Removing the "defective" one wasn't fun, with the extra adhesive. What was worse was removing the second one that evening - it simply did not want to come off. There were many howls to be heard.

Unfortnuately I don't think there is any way to guard against this, since there's no way to know if you've got a manufacturing problem like this until you've already "applied" the device - at which point you're "stuck" - literally.

[Angie Reim]

One of my Dive Buddies just got a dry (fabric) suit recently, and was beginning to consider a p-valve or cath...I'm trying to tell him that Depends are not that bad an option for short (90' or less) exposures, and besides, most of the places we dive HAVE bath houses for "gearing up" around the midsection...<g>

Have I steered him wrong? (I'm NOT a drysuit user)

Norm

Ummm.......I don't have the equipment needed to speak with authority regarding the use of p-valves. What I can tell you is that I've never had an infection caused by the use of Depends. I'm not terribly shy and have been known to 'gear up or down' behind the cover of an open truck door. Between that a small pack of baby wipes all things stay nice and baby fresh. To avoid soiling the suit make sure to release s.l.o.w.l.y..... but from this thread it sounds like a non-gender specific requirement.

Too much information, Angie!

Seriously, my dives are always under two hours, so I've resisted getting a p-valve. I NEVER drink anything with caffeine in it until the last dive of the day is over. Just water or non-caffeinated soft drinks. So far it hasn't been an issue.

If and when my dives start going over two hours, I guess I'll have to consider the dreaded valve.

Russell

[Angie Reim]

Too much information, Angie!

Oh.....I see. So like it's okay though for the rest of us to hear about how sticky a condom is and how it feels like to peel one off! Oh and just imagine if a hair gets hung up too.....:lol:

Just poking fun. No hard feelings. To quote a friend of mine "Cave diving is a surprisingly intimate sport". Given that I was silly enough to try deco with another friend in the tube at Friedman's, I'd have to agree. (If you've never been there - somebody has to have somebody elses head up their butt. :lol: )

I guess I left most of my modesty behind me in the delivery room 14 years ago. I got no gender. I'm just a middle-aged, cavediving mom. Folks can just run around naked for all I care. Sorry guys but I just couldn't resist. On to the next subject.....

Angie :twisted:

[mcmacken]

Perhaps my latest penis envy is misplaced and I should embrace those Depends as not such a bad alternative

One of my Dive Buddies just got a dry (fabric) suit recently, and was beginning to consider a p-valve or cath...I'm trying to tell him that Depends are not that bad an option for short (90' or less) exposures, and besides, most of the places we dive HAVE bath houses for "gearing up" around the midsection...<g>

Have I steered him wrong? (I'm NOT a drysuit user)

Norm
I use Depends instead of a pee valve. My dives are in the 60-120 min. range and I haven't had any "issues" :) It is much easier than messing with plumbing and you get real interesting looks at the drug store when you load up with a package, plus a big tube of K-Y (for latex seals!)

[Widiver_Paul]

Cleanliness is important but don't forget that all it takes is just a little of the normal bacterial load from skin to cause an infection. I think he was screwed the moment it all backed up no matter how clean the plastic tubing might of been.

Makes you wonder if use of an iodine or alcohol "prep pad" would be a wise choice before attaching the latex. Alcohol might be the best since it will give the adhesive something clean to attach to. I think iodine eats latex too if I remember correctly.

I know first hand how many of us guys wash our hands before and after visiting the urinal (not many), just think of all the bacteria that make it's way to the area inside the condom cath.

Something to think about.

[crazyduck]

I know first hand how many of us guys wash our hands before and after visiting the urinal (not many), just think of all the bacteria that make it's way to the area inside the condom cath.
Something to think about.

Try rebreathers- Counter lungs, scrubber, and hoses all become part of the divers breathing tract and cleaning the unit is of utmost importance. Imagine not washing your hands and then putting your rebreather together…. Uck

For me it not the urinal, it’s the door handle that everyone else is using after NOT washing their hands- same effect.

Andrew

[Genesis]

If you want to go after cleanliness in that sort of sense, screw the alcohol - go straight to the local Wally World or drugstore and get some Betadine.

That's basically surgical scrub and WILL kill the beasties. Its also intended for use on hands and other parts of the body.

The problem is that you have to sanitize the entire system (hoses, etc) or you have wasted your time. The caths themselves should be sterile until opened.

[lonestarfl]

Diluted Pinesol is typically the "loop disinfectant" followed with a Listerine solution wash to keep things "fresh" while breathing. I would think that Pinesol solution would be the best cold disinfectant solution to use without doing harm to the materials.
Lee

[mavjax]

Makes you wonder if use of an iodine or alcohol "prep pad" would be a wise choice before attaching the latex. Alcohol might be the best since it will give the adhesive something clean to attach to. I think iodine eats latex too if I remember correctly.

I know first hand how many of us guys wash our hands before and after visiting the urinal (not many), just think of all the bacteria that make it's way to the area inside the condom cath.

Something to think about.

The prep pads seem to work well. Not only do they clean but they leave a "film" that helps adhesive stick but in a way that also makes it easier to remove. If you use remover pads and liquid together removal is not an issue as long as you go slowly.

[mfascuba]

OK, here's the unedited version. I'm the "P-Valve Victim", if there is such a thing. I tried to post this at the same time I posted the IRAP, but ran into some problems with the internet type stuff.

I'd like to thank the following people for helping me and my family while I was in the clutches of my "problem".

1. Lee Gibson - Thanks for coming out and seeing if you could help.
2. The unknown guy named Mark, who stopped and helped my wife by the side of CR340 - I hope I run into you another time and can thank you for stopping.
3. Rose Meadows - Thanks for coming to see if you could help a person lying by the side of the road.
4. Rich Courtney and Stephanie - Thank you for taking care of my Wife while she was in the area. Also thanks for helping to get my vehicle and dive gear secured while I was incapacitated.
5. Larry and Debra Green - Thank you for your help - Again, you helped my wife by making sure "stuff was taken care of".

There were also calls from Ralph ( I can't spell your last name, but I'll still dive with you), and Johnny Richards asking how I was doing. Thanks for the support, and the encouragement when I was pretty far down.

So, without further delay, here's "the rest of the story".

Thanks again to everyone who helped me and my family.

Mark Ashley
Fort Myers, Florida
Soon to be diving Dry


So I geared up on New Year’s Eve to do my final dive of the year, with a fairly mundane plan. I’d scooter back to the Big Room, drop my Tekna and check out the small passage on the east side of the large rock in the middle of the room. Everything went to plan, until I got back to my scooter and felt the urge to relieve myself. I was diving dry, and had experienced good success using the Rochester Wideband catheters as a connection between me and my pee valve. Well, as soon as I tried to go I realized that something was kinked, as there was no flow. At all. I could feel the catheter trying to blow off, but the extra adhesive really held it in place. Too well. To the point where everything that had just come out went back in. And then out. And then back in again. Really disgusting. (sorry for the details, but it’s important, trust me.) As I made my hasty exit with just around an hour bottom time and minimal deco on EAN32, my emphasis was on getting out of the water and getting the hose unkinked. On leaving the water and inflating my drysuit as I walked up the stairs I could finally feel relief. It was around 8:00pm. There was a bit of discomfort in my system as I broke down my gear and prepared for the New Year’s celebration. I had a glass of champagne, a beer, and a couple glasses of water, and went to bed shortly after midnight.

The next morning I woke up around 7:00 with a burning in my lower pelvis, much more than a mild discomfort. I went to the bathroom and urinated in a foam cup to check for blood, but didn’t see any. The color of my urine indicated that I was dehydrated, so I started drinking water to bring my system back in line. As the morning progressed, I began to get chills to the point that my Wife realized I had a fever. I told her the rest of my symptoms and she called my doctor, who recommended I go to the hospital. Well, we all got in the car and headed over to Cave Excursions East, figuring we’d say Happy New Year to some folks and head over to Gainesville after that. I saw a few of my friends and told them what had happened, but I didn’t think it was too serious. After 10 minutes or so of socializing (from the car window – I was too uncomfortable to get out), we headed down CR340, towards High Springs. Well, I could just about see the towers for the Dannon Water Plant when I felt like I was going to vomit from the bottom of my feet. Now I hadn’t eaten anything that day, so when the car stopped, I rolled out onto the ground, dry heaved once and curled up in a ball, shaking from the fever and feeling like a block of ice. My wife was fairly freaked out at this point, and a man named Mark with a white F-150 and a blonde haired son about 8 pulled up and offered help. At this point my 13 year old daughter told my wife to stop thinking about it and call for an ambulance ( I heard about this later). My wife was on the phone with the 911 operator trying to describe where she was, and ended up handing the phone to Mark the good Samaritan to give detailed directions. He apparently lives in Spring Ridge, and deserves a medal for his help. I thank him from the bottom of my heart. Anyway, in the mean time several other cars pull over, including one man who offered to take me to the hospital in the back of his pickup. I guess I really looked bad While this was going on, my wife had called back to Cave Excursions and asked for Lee Gibson to come out, who is a physician at Shands. Lee arrived and began asking me some detailed questions about my pain, the circumstances that lead up to it, etc. I heard an EMT vehicle pull up, apparently from the Spring Ridge Rescue Station, and a paramedic began taking information. I think it was at this point that someone asked me to urinate in a cup to see if any blood was visible, which I agreed to until my wife brought out my NSS-CDS coffee mug that I had got at the social the day before. I refused to urinate in my CDS mug! She found another cup that I agreed to desecrate, and the medical folks took a look and saw no visible blood. So far so good. Rose Meadows showed up as well at this point, and was very concerned. She had apparently heard that a diver had been injured, and was by the side of the road with an ambulance on the way, and had left work to see if she could offer any assistance.

A decision was made on my behalf to transport me in the ambulance to the hospital of my choice, and my Wife looked at Lee, and he suggested Shands in case there were any directly related issues to diving, as that is the place to go if there is a need for hypobaric treatment. She was grateful for the advice, and agreed.

The ambulance ride is mostly a haze, and all that I remember was the paramedic asking permission to start an IV in my arm, which I was hesitant about, but agreed to. I also remember them saying when they got off I-75 in Gainesville that they were putting on the lights & sirens and running for it. I was shaking like a leaf for the entire ride, with the entire region below my belt feeling like it was on fire. A very hot fire.

My entry into the Emergency room was also a blur, with a rolloff transfer from the ambulance gurney to a hospital bed. I have no concept of what time it was, but from the time the whole sequence of events started I figure it was probably around 3:00. Well, the doctor decided to give me a dose of morphine to kill the pain in my groin and then signed me up for an MRI. My Wife helped me drink some of the nastiest Gatorade I’ve ever had (the hospital version with the dye in it), and it was up to the MRI room. The toughest part of the MRI was staying still with the fever still working it’s magic, as the tube passed over me. I could feel the contrast dye moving thru my system as I was put on the table, pretty gross. Afterward, I was brought back downstairs to the Emergency Room where I experienced an extended round of dry heaves from the dyes in my system. The pain was not abating at all, so they gave me something stronger than the original dose of Morphine. It was decided I would be admitted. I remember signing the admission forms, and my signature was worse than the Doctor’s!

On admission I was sent to the Trauma Floor, where the care was excellent. A staff member came in every time I was just about to go to sleep to check my blood pressure and temperature, and make sure I was OK. I learned later that I ran a temperature between 104º and 105º for most of the night. The staff finally got my temperature under control by administering the same antibiotic used to combat Anthrax, and by suppository doses of Tylenol. Over the course of the next day my temperature was gradually brought back under control, and by the second morning the pain was gone. I was released on Monday afternoon with a prescription for antibiotics, a warning to not drive as I had been on narcotics, and a note to stay out of work for a week.

All in all, I would prefer to never dive dry again, as the burning pain that I experienced in my infected urinary tract, and the risk I ran of bursting my bladder when the catheter forced waste back into my body is simply not worth it.

[DogDiver]

My DUI dry suit has a relief zipper in it. Special order Signature Series. I've only used wet suits to dive the springs, but I'm told that after a few months of living in Florida, I'll be using my dry suit. Oh, back to that relief zipper...It seams every time I use it underwater in the Great Lakes, the suit floods.....I called DUI and asked if it was a relief zipper, why couldn't I use it underwater too. I guess Dick Long wet his pants when my question got to his office.....lol....lol..... Anyway, it works just fine if used on the surface prior and post dive....Sea Ya in a couple of days...Ken

[mfascuba]

After reading this report in the IRAP (http://www.cavediver.net/irap/irap_disp.asp?IRAPID=136) about a severe bladder infection, I was struck wondering if this was a balanced, or unbalanced valve and whether either one would have made a difference. Has anyone else had this type of problem? I need to know before I install one in my suit, now that my dives are getting to the 70+ minute average point.

Paul,

It was my IRAP, so I'll answer. My pee valve is (was) a pee-thru bolt connected directly to the catheter, no balance valve, etc. As was noted, the "kink" occurred where the catheter meets the tubing, so it's really not a factor. I'll be diving wet for a while..

Mark Ashley

[mwenner]

:roll:
Pee valve's the only way, my opinion, and like Forrest says, just carry a squirt bottle and wash it out!

Excuse me......ah......

[resolute]

All I know now is I, for darn sure, will be keeping a bottle of betadyne in my dive van and will be using it and thoroughly rinsing the tube before and after any future dives - I would not want to go through a similar experience to Mark!

Yet another pre-dive delay for my buddies to deal with... :-D - sorry guys, the possibilities aren't too appealing, needless to say!

JB

[Moonfuzzy]

I heard you were in the hospital and wanted to stop by. I am glad to hear you came through it all in one piece!

I am amazed that the infection got so bad so quickly. Hope you get to enjoy yourself next time you are down.

[Widiver_Paul]

Diluted Pinesol is typically the "loop disinfectant" followed with a Listerine solution wash to keep things "fresh" while breathing. I would think that Pinesol solution would be the best cold disinfectant solution to use without doing harm to the materials.
Lee


hmmm..... Pinesol in my Pee Pee....

don't know if that sounds pleasurable...

[Neptuno]

something I do that might help, is I open the bolt and never pee unless I feel the fresh water sensation..:D
I have always been scared of something like that happening and blowing the catheter off, but never thought that something like that bad of an infection could happen...

so, next time in the water just be happy and pee slowly..:)
if you lose your reel I can bring it back, but if you lose your thingy in the cave, not bringing it back, sorry.. :smt018