I need info

[bgillespie82]

In my english class I have chosen to write a persuasive paper claiming that allowing cave divers access to sink holes and springs will be benificial to Florida. My main focus is the Wakulla/Leon counties but I speak of all systems. What i need is any information with credible refrences on Financial gain from local counties from cavers (im trying to use marianna as some evidence to this claim but need actual evidence rather than word of mouth). I also need any info on our help with providing information to the state or DEP. And last any information that is about our efforts to keep these springs clean and undamaged.
Any help will be greatly appreciated and If all goes well I will be sending this letter to our local government.

[FW]

You should focus on benefits, like an increase of knowledge about ground water. The state doesn't care much about making money from cave diving.

[bgillespie82]

I dissagree,
With all of the budget cuts going on I think that Florida will be looking for other sources.

[bgillespie82]

Look at what has happened to Marianna, most of that was done because it brought money in to the town. Florida also gets its money from tourism and cave divers make a part of that

[Bill Rotella]

This says it all to me, I am not a tourist, but a man that respects and enjoys the beauty of God's Creation that we are privilidged to see:

The National Speleological Society and the Cave Diving Section believes; that caves have unique scientific, recreational, and scenic values; that these values are endangered by both carelessness and intentional vandalism; that these values, once gone, cannot be recovered; and that the responsibility for protecting caves must be assumed by those who study and enjoy them.

Accordingly, the intention of the Society is to work for the preservation of caves with a realistic policy sup-ported by effective programs for: the encouragement of self-discipline among cavers; education and research concerning the causes and prevention of cave damage; and special projects, including cooperation with other groups similarly dedicated to the conservation of natural areas.

Specifically: All contents of a cave - formations, life and loose deposits - are significant for it's enjoyment and interpretation.

Therefore, caving parties should leave a cave as they find it. They should find means for the removal of waste; Limit marking to a few, small and removable signs as are needed for surveys; and, especially, exercise extreme care not to accidentally break or soil formations, disturb life forms or unnecessarily increase the number of disfiguring paths through an area. Scientific collection is professional, selective and minimal. The collecting of mineral or biological material for display purposes, including previously broken or dead specimens, is never justified, as it encourages others to collect and destroy the interests of the cave.

The Society encourages projects such as: establishing cave preserves; placing entrance gates where appropriate; opposing the sale of speleothems; supporting effective protective measures; cleaning and restoring over-used caves; cooperating with private cave owners by providing knowledge about their cave and assisting them in protecting their cave and property from damage during cave visits; and encourage commercial cave owners to make use of their opportunity to aid the public in understanding caves and the importance of their conservation.

Where there is reason to believe that publications of cave locations will lead to vandalism before adequate protection can be established, the Society will oppose such publication.

It is the duty of every Society member to take personal responsibility for spreading a consciousness of the cave conservation problem to each potential user of caves. Without this, the beauty and value of our caves will not long remain with us.

[bgillespie82]

thanks Bill

[FW]

From the FL State Parks webpage:

"The mission of the Florida Park Service is to provide resource-based recreation while preserving, interpreting and restoring natural and cultural resources."

It doesn't mention making money at all. The NSS-CDS, and NACD, have been working with the FL Parks Dept for over 30 years, and have gotten access to a few sites with a lot of hard work from countless volunteers. We have pointed out many times that they could increase revenue, but they continually point out that making money is NOT their mission.

Whatever you do with your letter, please don't insult the parks dept, or make them angry at cave divers. Access to Peacock, Madison, Manatee, etc could be lost as a result.

[OFG-1]

In my english class I have chosen to write a persuasive paper claiming that allowing cave divers access to sink holes and springs will be benificial to Florida. My main focus is the Wakulla/Leon counties but I speak of all systems. What i need is any information with credible refrences on Financial gain from local counties from cavers (im trying to use marianna as some evidence to this claim but need actual evidence rather than word of mouth). I also need any info on our help with providing information to the state or DEP. And last any information that is about our efforts to keep these springs clean and undamaged.
Any help will be greatly appreciated and If all goes well I will be sending this letter to our local government.

You have created a circular arguement. Local counties will not get ANY money from the sale (ie, renting or charging to use parks) of state owned lands, with the exception of some local taxes on additional tourists. And as much as I hate to tell you, cave divers are not a large group.

If you want to research this, try to see how much money has gone to Madison County from the divers at Madison blue since it became a state park. If you want actual evidence, get in your car, drive to the court house, ask their financial personel, don't try to get other people to do it for you. Ask the city of Mayo about how much peacock has generated for their local government.

The monetary arugement has been beaten to death for 30 years by groups of people with a lot more experience.

Try wrapping up a good arguement around this, although there is no monetary gain for the property owners:

http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/recreate/fl_rec.htm

[aw]

Governments are in place to serve the people. There shouldn't be a "what's in it for us" mentality in government. Rather, it should be "what resources do we have stewardship over and how can they best be utilized?" opening up lands owned with sinks, etc that could provide value addedness to the community and enrich the lives of others should be the focus.

If they are afraid of lawsuits, etc. then they should change administration heads in favor of those who are willing to accept some level of risk in the interest of maximizing resources for ALL citizens, and not just what makes the administration comfortable. If they don't want to be bothered with the hassle, then they shouldn't be in office. You need go-getters. Folks who don't operate primarily out of a spirit of fear. Unless they've got a valid reason a site should remain closed, then they are obligated to at least investigate the option.

I believe even if cave diving provided no benefit to the local community, the fact that there are God-given resources on that property, raises in them the responsibility to maximize its use. They are stewards. And God can take it from them just as quick as he gave it, or even remove any self-serving heads that be.

[FW]

Look at what has happened to Marianna, most of that was done because it brought money in to the town. Florida also gets its money from tourism and cave divers make a part of that
Marianna is a little different, because it is the county, not the state that owns the caves. The local area does get some benefit from cavediving there, lodging, food, the diveshop....

On the other hand, if someone did an analysis, they would see that it is a drop in the bucket, compared to other activities, like swimming for example.

[Bill Rotella]

Marianna is a little different, because it is the county, not the state that owns the caves. The local area does get some benefit from cavediving there, lodging, food, the diveshop..
On the other hand, if someone did an analysis, they would see that it is a drop in the bucket, compared to other activities, like swimming for example.

There is an impact study being done by Dr Bill Huth I believe in regards to Jackson County.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Blue Springs Park(Jackson Blue) is state owned, its just run by the county... Same as Morrison Springs, which is I guess in Holmes County?.

Blue Springs Park closes off to swimmers for half the year, diver presense is pretty consistant throughout the year with a heftier price tag.

[bgillespie82]

"If you want to research this, try to see how much money has gone to Madison County from the divers at Madison blue since it became a state park. If you want actual evidence, get in your car, drive to the court house, ask their financial personel, don't try to get other people to do it for you. Ask the city of Mayo about how much peacock has generated for their local government."

I am in the progress of doing this though i also know that there are fellow divers out there with information gathered that is not accessible by the public and I was trying to get as much evidence as i can to stand by my claim. We also know how fast Local counties work and that i must remind you that this is also a term paper that i have chosen to write and I will probably have been graduated from college before I get information from the counties. Im not seeking others to do research for me; I have lots of information gathered from searching myself though if i can get as much info that I can my claim might have a more convincing standpoint.

[bgillespie82]

stating that cave divers numbers are so small and dont make much of a difference can be argued against. I see what you are stating though look at marianna their budget has increased around 21,000 annually thats just in the park alone. Now look at the big picture of cavers in marianna, buying property that is taxed, renting hotels, eating at local businesses, and even providing volunteer cleanups that the state OR county dosent have to do. Many divers also bring in swimmers and faimly to enjoy the lands and they also provide aid to the budget. In my beliefs small numbers can make a big difference, its just how you plan your battle is what counts.

[bgillespie82]

I just want to tell everyone thank you for your ideas and valuable information wether it be an opinion of oppisition or support.

[Bill Rotella]

I just want to tell everyone thank you for your ideas and valuable information wether it be an opinion of oppisition or support.


Any time buddy!

[hhansard]

I am not a local to Cave Country, or an expert on eco-tourism. My comments may not be on-target. So for some free advice ---- as they say, take it for what it is worth:

1. Try the High Springs Chamber of Commerce (if such exists, if not try the County). They may collect data on cave diving (and eco-tourism in general) and its impact on local / regional economy.
2. The larger economic issue may not be cave diving, but the availability of clean water to support a viable local / regional economy. Ex. If you open a dump in one county, it may “flow down” and pollute the ground water 50 miles away…
3. The long-term impact of cave diving may be the knowledge that cave divers bring to the issues of water conservation and pollution. While difficult to quantify in terms of dollars and cents, there is value…
4. You may be able to draw parallels to other eco-tourist pursuits. The Sierra Club, Explorers Club, et all may be able to provide you with economic impact models

There are one or two economists who frequent this site (as well as the decostop). They can probably provide much better ideas.

Good Luck,

H

[hhansard]

The local and regional impact of snow skiing was studied for the Lower Catskill Region of New York several years ago.

Basically, snow skiing had a couple of bad years and some of the smaller mountains closed. This caused a ripple effect through the local economies (motels, restaurants, ski shops, rental places, etc). I remember reading about the study and how it was being used as the basis for a proposed economic stimulus package (I think the final outcome was low-interest loans for snowmaking equipment).

Anyway, you can probably use LexisNexis to find the study and get a copy. Much of the economic heavy-lifting for sports-based tourism may already be done and available. You can probably contact the Chamber of Commerce for the lower Catskill Region – they should be able to provide hard data.

H

[wingman]

well here's a paper i did with some others on the economics of the oriskany...this is the us epa ncee version...it will be published soon in Marine Resource Economics:

http://yosemite.epa.gov/ee/epa/eed.nsf/44a8be610f6c5f0885256e46007b104e/9a8190991af8b8bf852573b0006341fa!OpenDocument

we did a pilot survey at the nss/cds meeting in marianna and got enough data to build a similar travel cost demand model for jackson blue...we also got expenditure data to do an economic impact estimate...we will be using implan multipliers (from an economic input/output model) and also the remi model, a county level regional econometric model of the state of florida. We might be gearing up for a larger project using more data from the jcso records. That is in the proposal stage. Bill Huth

[bgillespie82]

Thanks for the info Guys!!! Sorry I didnt reply earlier, I recently heard that my father passed and I had to travel to Virginia to see my dad one last time and help my sister with anything that needed to be done.

[sskasser]

I'm very sorry to hear that.

[jimdiverman]

Thanks for the info Guys!!! Sorry I didnt reply earlier, I recently heard that my father passed and I had to travel to Virginia to see my dad one last time and help my sister with anything that needed to be done.

Ben,

My deepest condolences. I am sorry to hear of your loss. If you need another set of eyes to read your paper prior to submitting it, I would be happy to assist.

[bgillespie82]

Thank you for your concerns. He was a good guy though lead a hard life. He is in a better place now hanging out on some porch drinking a Beer watchin over me and his grandson.