View Full Version : Cave Diving Stretcher Rescue....
Yopie
06-06-2008, 04:33 PM
An exercise of rescue on cave diving was held on April 13, 2008 in France.
1400 m travelled in a sump with a stretcher cave diving.
Teams are relayed to advance the stretcher.
Two divers remained throughout the course with the stretcher was in rebreather.
This stretcher will be soon equipped with rebreather.
Here are two film, the first is the television news shows divers with rebreather.
The second, shown in greater detail the stretcher.
http://www.youtube.com/v/qM4Uth_7W6Q&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/v/tTRYn1w8nnM&hl=en
Spéléo Secours Français : Accueil (http://www.speleo-secours-francais.fr)
http://nsm01.casimages.com/img/2008/06/04/080604110712313952151426.jpg
http://nsm01.casimages.com/img/2008/06/04/080604110725313952151427.jpg
Sorry for my english.....
Scubastud16
06-06-2008, 05:32 PM
I'll check the vids out later, but those pictures are pretty awesome!
Thank you Yopie, that was an excelent exercise. I have been concerned that someone may need that type of rescue in a US sump.
I just watched the videos. I wonder how this exercise would have gone in a cave with silt on the floor?
Cindy
06-06-2008, 06:44 PM
I have a full face mask now. We should play with it. I think a orange ems stretcher would work. Cindy
I have a full face mask now. We should play with it. I think a orange ems stretcher would work. Cindy
I couldn't help but notice his hands were not tied down, and there was a backup reg handy :-)
**This.........is serious business-!! & a welcomed intuition to the cave diving community-! Finally some reality cks on the possibility of this actually happening. I like it-!
je
Webmaster
06-07-2008, 01:38 AM
Wow, great visibility there. Looks like a specially rigged up backboard he's on? It's definitely balanced well. That's a brave guy in the litter, it's a pretty helpless feeling volunteering to be the patient above water much less under water. Is that a gas switching block laying across his knees?
Yeah I've thought for a while we should plan some exercises. How well does your mask fit different size faces Cindy? I had wondered if a FFM would work best or if a helmet would be in order.
You'll have the possible concerns of fitting someone you don't know, keeping it on and unflooded on a potentially unconcious patient during transport, and still provide medical access to the airway.
Then there's also the possible concern of having to provide exposure protection. You might have to extract someone that got flooded in vs a diver. I had envisioned something like a large sleeping bag constructed like a drysuit with generic arms and attached mittens and only a zip-seal neck seal. That way with a few different size neck seals you could fit the same device to a number of different size folks.
It would probably be worthwhile to try both with non-rigid stretcher like a Sked and OSS setup, and a Ferno or something. You would want to have your weighting placement and dive related rigging for everything figured out before hand. You'd want to be able to put it on and take it off fairly quickly as you move in or out of the water I think.
Marbry
We used to run accident drills in the Navy for injured/passed out persons in a smoke fill compartment on the submarine. It was always a big mess with dozens of people with masks covered so they can't see running everywhere plugging into air hose connections and daisy chaining connections from one person to the next.
The poor victims playing injured someone had to find them in the dark and put a mask on them.
In addition to putting out the simulated fire and generally taking care of general emergency proceedures. All too often someone would have to move and a several people were plugged into them and no one can hear/see much of anything so they'd unplug and suddenly there are a number of people with no air scrambling to find the nearest empty plug connection (which are few and far between located in the memorized locations).
And of course when a "victim" gets unplugged they aren't supposed to be able to do anything and no one can really see what is going on. It always looked bad in drill review when someone unplugs an injured victim and they "die" suffocating in thier air mask.
Bad vis evacuating a injured diver on a stretcher would probably be a lot like that. :? Good thing to be thinking about and practising but bad vis etc is probably a whole other level. Something to do once they've got the basics down solid under ideal conditions. It is underwater so they could actually kill someone just practising.
metaldector
06-07-2008, 09:14 AM
What is the rectangular box between the divers doubles? Anyone know?
argyris
06-07-2008, 11:31 AM
What is the rectangular box between the divers doubles? Anyone know?
Rebreather SCR
Webmaster
06-07-2008, 01:35 PM
We used to run accident drills in the Navy for injured/passed out persons in a smoke fill compartment on the submarine. It was always a big mess with dozens of people with masks covered so they can't see running everywhere plugging into air hose connections and daisy chaining connections from one person to the next.
The poor victims playing injured someone had to find them in the dark and put a mask on them.
In addition to putting out the simulated fire and generally taking care of general emergency proceedures. All too often someone would have to move and a several people were plugged into them and no one can hear/see much of anything so they'd unplug and suddenly there are a number of people with no air scrambling to find the nearest empty plug connection (which are few and far between located in the memorized locations).
And of course when a "victim" gets unplugged they aren't supposed to be able to do anything and no one can really see what is going on. It always looked bad in drill review when someone unplugs an injured victim and they "die" suffocating in thier air mask.
Bad vis evacuating a injured diver on a stretcher would probably be a lot like that. :? Good thing to be thinking about and practising but bad vis etc is probably a whole other level. Something to do once they've got the basics down solid under ideal conditions. It is underwater so they could actually kill someone just practising.
Except that you don't actually have an incapacitated patient in that case. I think you would still want them to have their own backup, be able to access it themselves etc... Also the progression would probably be to go though the whole process on the surface first. And then you would progress to just a loaded litter underwater with no patient to practice handling and rigging before putting anyone in it in the water. And like you said, you probably wouldn't want to start out with the worst spot you could find.
Also there is always at least one person assigned to a patient that is constantly monitoring them. Harder to do in low vis, but you would want to do things like keep touch contact, keep your hand over their face to prevent scraping it on the ceiling, feeling bubbles to make sure they're still breathing.
Marbry
Cindy
06-07-2008, 01:48 PM
While I agree with reduncancy I know how injured people act or react. And you will have most of these people c-spined. Injuries to both limbs etc. Most of the cave rescues that actually worked the person was sedated. They can't be expected to act in a rational manor. It is the responsibility of the person watching the patient to monitor them and prevent them from pulling off their oxygen supply or further injury to themselves by thrashing around etc. . Full face mask, sedation, C spine. The patient tender would give gas as needed. This is why we should do this under actual conditions to trial some of this stuff in a reality based situation. Please see the PM I just sent you and Forrest. Cindy
cliffhanger
06-07-2008, 05:16 PM
I must agree with Cindy on this. Unless the people being rescued are already avid divers, then there will be big issues with pts being anxious, uncooperative. Seeing as one of the bigger uses could be in the realm of rescuing pts trapped in flooded caves, and even then it would be pts that cannot wait for the water to recede due to some life threatening situation, sedation would be a must. Also, unless you did have the good fortune to have a diver that was able to maintain their composure and not flail around on you, you cannot leave their hands free. To do that, even with sedation, would just be adding many more risks. One thing that I could see looking at adding to a sked stretcher, or whatever device you decide to use would be a wire/mesh cage covering the pt face. This is something that doesn't have to be tight down on the face, in fact it needs to give enough room so the rescuer can get to the pt face/throat if need be, but that will help when in a close in space to keep from raking their facemask against the ceiling and possibly dislodging it. Also, one needs to look at what you are going to use for spinal immobilization. You cannot use a standard backboard to secure a pt to before putting them in the sked stretcher, since it is extremely positively buoyant. I don't know if they make a long spine board that is neutral buoyant or not, but it would be idea for this type of scenario.
Just some of my thoughts on the matter, but I think that this is definitely something realistic and needed.
Webmaster
06-07-2008, 05:25 PM
There is also the possibility of extraction for non-medical reasons. But yes I agree that you need to account for at least the possibility of an unconcious patient. That's why I had wondered if a band mask type helmet would be more secure than a FFM.
A Sked is usually used in conjunction with an OSS and a collar for spinal immobilization. It's actually very uncomfortable to be dragged through a cave in a Sked without the OSS.
To protect the face a halved helmet with a flip down face guard is a popular choice. But even that sticks up quite a bit in tight areas and is no substitute for knowing you're not scraping their face off.
Marbry
Cindy
06-07-2008, 08:48 PM
A full face mask doesn't stick up any more than a regular mask. Your getting confused with those gas masks you see on TV. :)
Cindy
Before it is ever done with a live person, even if it is for practice, a Rescue Randy should be used and one person is dedicated to watching RR to observe him.
I think that if you were to do a mock rescue with a person, it would be asking for trouble. Now if you are testing a small distace to figure out a way is differant. Then you have to think about what is the training of all envolved. Are they just CD or do they have a rescue background and knowledge. I know that NFPA does ont cover any of this but what does NSS cover? I know that it would be a new way to look at performing a rescue.
We might need to just network and all sit down in person and throw out some ideas and look at the pro's and con's.
SLIM
Cindy
06-07-2008, 09:13 PM
Slim, not to put a damper on things but Nothing will get done throwing a few things around and talking. Forrest has been talking this up for four years now that I know of. As the man on TV said "just getter done"! You get the NSS rescue people involved then you will really find out what politics are. We are talking a marraige between dry cave rescue and spring cave rescue. Neither group in my opinion is ready to do this. Sometimes you need to just gather up the gear, find a good place and put a plan into action. Bring a dummy, different gear and go practice. See what works.
No matter what you practice in reality we are looking at a critically injured person. Someone with a broken arm, even a leg can be splinted and taken out through a sump. We are talking broken backs, severe head injury, multipal trauma. You have to have some trauma training or mindset. The diver who is having these type of rescues will die if you don't get them out. It's going to happen soon the way sump diving keeps getting promoted as an alternative diving choice. Either the people involved in the issue figure out NOW how to handle it or you Will lose someone. You need to figure out what works then join with the local dry caving rescue people with the back ground to help and include the equipment and divers with the right gear for the problem and have it available where it will be most needed. I saw a quote that is right for this situation. Wisdom is knowing the right path to take, integrity is taking it. Cindy
I agree with you Cindy. Let me put it differant. We need to sit dwon one morning and tlak about it and then go and do it that afternoon. Yes when in a Multi System Trauma, the impovisaion is best most of the time. At that point, anything can be done. For if it is not tried then there is a greater chance of it being a recovery.
I know that getting all of us togather and comming up with all the gear is a hurdle that first has to be crossed. I think that once we have had time to try a few ideas then when the rescue is needed and a local rescue team arives they dhould have most of what we would need s for as SKED, Full SMR equipment, and any med gear to take in. We would just have to provide the transportaion to the victum and the removal of the victum.
SLIM
Webmaster
06-07-2008, 10:23 PM
A full face mask doesn't stick up any more than a regular mask. Your getting confused with those gas masks you see on TV. :)
Cindy
You'll see I was referring to a face shield something like this http://www.abbeypro.co.uk/eyewear-safety/full-face-protection/showitem-LFN0066.aspx often used to protect the patient while in the litter. A FFM or even any other type of mask would still stick up and provide a good target to be dislodged.
I like to keep my hand between their face and the rock when moving through very tight spots. It may not have been that tight going in, but you add the litter, packaging, and being locked into one position and the same passage can be difficult to maneuver them through delicately.
Marbry
cliffhanger
06-08-2008, 06:35 AM
You can't rely on the local emergency response group to bring the gear you need. In some regards, yes, but if you are planning on going in medical then don't plan on the local emergency rescue to have the medical gear in any acceptable configuration for you to use in a cave rescue scenario, whether it be a dry cave or a sump. If you are planning on being a medical personnel going in, then you need to put together your own outbag configured to your needs and still be easily portable. You can use the local EMS to help if you need some resupplying or for adjuncts, but I wouldn't necessarily use them for a primary resource. If your local fire dept has a decent rescue team, then you should have access to rope, skeds, and some of your larger equipment needs.
And Cindy, I don't necessarily think that the dry cave rescuers are not ready to do some joint ventures, but I think the problem is the many that I've been around and talked to have not seemed to have much of an understanding of the diving side of it and thus think of the divers as the crazy ones that come in when they cannot do anything but wait. I think that several would be open to some combining and joint training if approached correctly.
Any undertaking of this kind will have to include people versed in both the diving aspect and the dry caving aspect of rescue work for this to work. It will definitely take some work, but I think it will be not only highly rewarding, but definitely necessary.
Yopie
06-09-2008, 06:49 AM
I just watched the videos. I wonder how this exercise would have gone in a cave with silt on the floor?
If we are some silt on the floor the last diver on the stretcher take the line guide....
Yopie
06-09-2008, 06:50 AM
I have a full face mask now. We should play with it. I think a orange ems stretcher would work. Cindy
We use facial masque because If the victim is gone, it can still breathe....
Yopie
06-09-2008, 07:07 AM
Why this approach?
We had a few accidents in the bottom of the hole. (Broken legs or arms behind one or several).
It was released the victim, the siphon was at -100 or 200 m underground.
Our oldest stretcher, was more suited to this kind of operation.
Today we can pick up a diver anywhere.
Conscious or not!
We médicalisons first vicitme, with doctors and nurses.
The victim is placed in a garment watertight.
Then put on the stretcher.
It is a stretcher PETZL, which is modified and adapted for diving ....
http://www.expe.eu.com/EXPE_WEB/HR/1332.JPG
I try to answer your questions and I am sorry for my English.
Yopie
06-09-2008, 07:15 AM
A new video at the french national tvnews :
http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x2jj6r&related=1 (http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x2jj6r&related=1)
http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x2jjb6&related=1
You can read an article about the french rescue team, here :
http://www.plongeesout.com/plongeeso...mag/Mag_n6.pdf
SuPrBuGmAn
06-09-2008, 07:24 AM
Yopie, great job in trying to prepare for an emergency. Your english is better than alot of American's english, no need to apologize! :D
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