Is this an accident waiting to happen?

[stairman]

In my opinion,cavediving has an achilles heel in that many choose to dive wet with a single bladder wing.The dry suiters have their redundant inflation.Some wet suiters dive double bladders and even stacked wings Ive heard of but havent seen.Ive dove with many wet suiters with single wings.Has anyone practiced riding a lift bag out of a cave?Has anyone tried riding a deflated diver out of a cave successfully?I would probably try if I had to but I doubt it would be successful.Leaving a stranded diver in the mud would be hard to do and what if no one were topside with a spare b.c?I dive wet but spent the extra 100 dollars for the dual rec wing.I keep the backup clipped off and will switch l.p hose to it if needed.I dont see the need to have them both hooked up.All wet suiters should take note of this lack of redundance. My two cents,Randy...

[jimdiverman]

I dive wet with the DR Classic redundant wing setup. But I also dive with the backup connected. When/if I need it, I don't want to waste time with that tight inflator connection already powered and struggle to get it to snap in while sinking somewhere or finning the bottom. I have yet to have a problem with the backup wing collecting water or trapping air, so it is there strictly as a backup. It was one of my concerns when I recently bought the Nomad rig for sidemounting. I would feel more comfortable diving it with a dry suit so I have the redundancy, and in the future, that is what I will do.

[stairman]

I just orally inflate to get off the bottom and then disconnect and hookup the backup.I just dont want two l.p hoses hooked up.It may cost me 5-10 seconds and I may touch the bottom momentarily,but imagine a single wing in this scenario,scary! Randy...

[Line Squirrel]

I had a wing failure once while diving cave/wet suit. The corrugated hose came completely off of the elbow. I didn't know what had happened (other than complete loss of buoyancy) until I got back out to o/w and was doing a safety stop.

Interesting exit, I'm glad I was only 600-700 feet back.

Trying to weigh my options while still in the cave:
A) Leap frog from rock to rock kicking like crazy in between until I got out.
B) Ditch one tank (I was in sm) to make it easier to swim out.
C) Combo of A & B
D) I happen to have two buddies with me. Write on wet notes to "carry me out"

Option A worked pretty good, my buddies said considering what I was dealing with it didn't look too bad. I'm glad I had lots of exposed rocks. I was able to spot one while holding myself up out of the mud/silt before I swam/jumped to the next one.

If I had been in a cave with more silt and no rocks on the floor it would have gotten really ugly really fast.

Had I known exactly the cause of the failure, I may have been able to push the corrugated hose back on the elbow hold it in place well enough to at least get a little lift. I was in the early stages of my dive with near full tanks so I was pretty negative with no wing.

Geesh...I should put this in the IRAP :)

[cavediver27]

I just orally inflate to get off the bottom and then disconnect and hookup the backup.I just dont want two l.p hoses hooked up.It may cost me 5-10 seconds and I may touch the bottom momentarily,but imagine a single wing in this scenario,scary! Randy...

Why does having two low pressure hoses connected concern you?

Dry suit and single wing = 2 low pressure inflater's and 2 hoses connected
Wet suit and dual bladder wing = 2 low pressure inflater's and 2 hoses connected
Wet suit and doubled up Classic wings = 2 low pressure inflater's and 2 hoses connected

FWIW, when I dive wet I use either doubled up DR Classic wings (deep and / or stages and 108's) or a dual bladder DR Rec wing (no stages and 85's)

[phreaticus]

DR also makes a dual bladder Nomad (sidemount) and is working on a dual bladder Classic 360 (donut) wing, the single bladder Classic 360 is already available. same price as the standard Classic wing, just 5 lbs or so more lift (65).....fyi...

[Tegg]

I had a wing failure in a cave where the elbow decided to crack because it didn't like the pressure against the rock while going through a small passage.

The option I feel I had was to use my wetsuit as secondary bouancy.

Anyone that has spent time in a drysuit knows how to control the air in a suit. You can feel it and you know the movements required to move the air where you want it. So I did. I kept the air in my back and surprisingly, it worked pretty good. There were only a couple of times that I "lost" the air and dropped to a rock.

Ever since then, I have felt that using my wetsuit is a viable alternative to a bulky second wing for "most" caves <120ft depth.

Obviously in deep cave, or long penetrations it's not as viable and those dives should be done dry.

Just an opinion. It's worth what you paid for it.

[trogloxene]

Coincidentally, I was at the local dive shop this weekend and was talking wings and they brought up this same issue. I was told that some instructors may require a dual bladder wing after the cavern level

Sean

[jimdiverman]

DR also makes a dual bladder Nomad (sidemount) and is working on a dual bladder Classic 360 (donut) wing, the single bladder Classic 360 is already available. same price as the standard Classic wing, just 5 lbs or so more lift (65).....fyi...

Thanks. If I continue to dive the Nomad wet, I will want to get the dual bladder for it.

[Line Squirrel]

Joe - Good post. I'm going to have to try this under controlled conditions.

[akcaver]

Ive always dove dual bladder with a wetsuit. When backmount I have the OMS 60# plus the DR Trek, will barely float me in 104's. Now diving sidemount I use the dual rec wing. I had my backup wing inflator fail once, it was stuck on. One has to remember a failure doesnt always mean loss of buoyancy, but could also mean an uncontrolled addition of air to the wing before you can fix it. Luckily I was on deco in a cavern and was at the ceiling anyways.

[Gary]

Why does having two low pressure hoses connected concern you?

There was a good write up on a run-away inflation of a BC incident over on the deco stop - leading to a serious bend. With the spare 2nd stage tuned to minimize freeflow the LP inflator reacted to a leaky seat / high IP by venting into the wing and sending the diver uncontrolably to the surface.

It would be hard enought to find, identify and disconnect a single LP inflator supply (even if you were aware that such a problem might be possiable) a second wing and supply could make it nearly impossiable.

I'm not very worried about a BC getting totally ripped from top to bottom in an instant. A hole or a rip would be a limited problem - with care controlable even with a single BC in a variety of ways with a small downside. Uncontroled BC inflation is very hard to respond to and can lead to serious DCS, embolism, and death.

When I dive dual BC I only have one LP supply hose to one of the BCs. If I need the second BC I can switch the hose or orally inflate.

It's also good to know if you have a LP inflator that can vent into the BC on high IP.

[akcaver]

When I dive dual BC I only have one LP supply hose to one of the BCs. If I need the second BC I can switch the hose or orally inflate.



Exactly what I do.

[Line Squirrel]

Exactly what I do.

ditto

I've had a run away inflator (power inflator) once and a few on my drysuit. Everytime in a cave and everytime I was headed for the ceiling before I even know what's happening. By the time you start deflating with one hand and try to dissconnect with the other your headed for the ceiling. Everytime I was in an area where I was fairly close to the ceiling already (Lips @ Ginnie is where the power inflator stuck) each time I remember saying to myself...EXHALE and DUCK.

This may sound a little over the top, maybe some of you guys do this too, but what I do now is hold my breath when I power inflate either my wing or my drysuit, that way I can hear if it's stuck. It's just a habit I've gotten into doing now, everytime, it's second nature.

[MORGAN]

ditto

This may sound a little over the top, maybe some of you guys do this too, but what I do now is hold my breath when I power inflate either my wing or my drysuit, that way I can hear if it's stuck. It's just a habit I've gotten into doing now, everytime, it's second nature.

I do the same - When diving wet in doubles I use a dual DR Classic with one LPI hose, and I listen for a stuck inflator whenever I add air to my wing or dry suit. I learned this years ago from my original OW instructor. Mike, you're the only other person I've ever heard mention it.

Mike

[aainslie]

TUncontroled BC inflation is very hard to respond to and can lead to serious DCS, embolism, and death.


Not in a cave, most of the time. I had an inflator stick on by the park bench. I was desperately trying to disconnect the hose... when I hit the ceiling, and realized thre wasn't much to panic about. I actually continued the dive oraly inflating, it really was no big deal.

And best of all, I was on my own so it wasn't even that embarrassing.

[RN]

When I dove backmount I dove a dual bladder wing. When I bought my Nomad, either they didn't have the dual bladder version out yet, or I just didn't know it existed, so I ended up with a single bladder wing. Most of my diving is dry anyway, so it's not a big deal. When I dive wet, I do carry a 50lb lift bag in my thigh pocket. I haven't had to use it and, even though I should, haven't practiced with it, but it's there should I need it. Once day I'll pull it out and play around with it to see how things go. Typically, though, if I'm wet, I'm diving AL80s so I don't think it would be a big deal to have to lift bag it out.

[DogDiver]

The Nomad duel bladder is my next purchace. I'm close to neutral with little air in my bladder when my sidemount tanks hit 1900 psi and use a steel 45 for deco just for that reason. Had a punctured Classic wing in Hart earlier this year. Was an annoyance, thats all. Puncture was in the forward portion of the wing, so I kept a more head down position while continually adding air to the wing. We were already on our way out by the way. Exiting up the chimney was entertaining though as the puncture was now at the top of the wing...damn....Ken

[Slüdge]

Years ago my buddy and I were exiting the Devil's Ear, and right before we hit the exit hole her inflator hit the wall, the button came off, and it went into rapid inflate. It pinned her to the ceiling (of that little room we call the Phone Booth). In a minor panic, she motioned for me to turn her post off. I instead calmly disconnected her inflator hose. She paused, and then gave me the "Hi, I'm an idiot" look.

My point is, a very skilled and experienced diver had a sudden emergency happen out of the blue, and she wasn't able to perform the correct (and simple) response.

Plus, if it had happened ten seconds later, she would have rocketed to the surface and missed all of her deco.

(Again, maybe this should be an IRAP.)

[ARY]

Doubled walmart grocery bags might work as a liftbag.

[aainslie]

This is one of the hassles diving with steels in a wetsuit. One completely different option is to dive Al 80's instead mexico style, and if necessary take a tiny bit of ditchable weight. Then you should be fine with no bladder, and breathing deeply. In SM if you can (i.e. if you have tons of gas/stages and are near the exit), start emptying steels first and drop them. Whatever you do don't drop an AL80 - that's a source of lift when empty. Rather just blow all the gas out of it.

I'd rather dive in a drysuit than take a double bladder.

[cavediver27]

I'd rather dive in a drysuit than take a double bladder.

Why is that? Either way you have two low pressure inflater's and two low pressure hoses. The dry suit inflater could fail just as easily as a wing inflater. They both are mechanically and operationally the same. If you want "push button" redundant buoyancy it will take two low pressure inflaters.

Now, have you actually tried to manage your trim with a dry suit only and no wing? How about with multiple stages and deco obligation? Give it a try sometime, it's not too easy.

[Line Squirrel]

Why is that? Either way you have two low pressure inflater's and two low pressure hoses.

Except in cold water, now you would have three LP inflator hoses.

[cavediver27]

Except in cold water, now you would have three LP inflator hoses.

Actually for me my usual configuration is single DR Classic wing and dry suit whether it's cold Great Lakes diving or warm FL caves. I only use a dual DR Rec wing during summer when I'm diving wet in warm water and with 85's. What I was trying to express about using the dry suit for buoyancy when your wing craps out is that is not as easy as it sounds.

[RN]

Except in cold water, now you would have three LP inflator hoses.

You don't need to connect the LP inflator for the 2nd bladder if you're diving dry. I never did when I was diving doubles.

I agree in sidemount it's kind of pointless. That extra LP inflator is just one more thing that I have to squeeze through that restriction, and one more thing I have to worry about not functioning after it's been broken going through that restriction.

[akcaver]

I'd rather dive in a drysuit than take a double bladder.

Less stuff around your chest and the obvious answer... its warmer than a wetsuit!

[aainslie]

Why is that? .

'Cause it's warm... edit, oops, just saw the other post!

I disagree on how hard buoyancy is with a drysuit. The drysuit is often my primary buoyancy in the caves, I pretty much run the wing empty. The wing is a PITA on the SM system, the emptier it is the better. It does however help substantially with full stages.

[Line Squirrel]

What I was trying to express about using the dry suit for buoyancy when your wing craps out is that is not as easy as it sounds.

I don't why you're making it out to sound that difficult, it isn't. We used to practice holding stops from around 120ffw up to 10ffw stopping every 10ft with just the drysuit and multiple bottles quite often...what else do you do in a cold deep quarry after you've seen the school bus and the Cessna for the 100th time :-D.

The key is, like anything, you need to practice and stay on top of the skill otherwise, yea, I suppose it could be a little dicey if the first time you tried it it was for real. I had no issues the first time I tried it.



You don't need to connect the LP inflater for the 2nd bladder if you're diving dry. I never did when I was diving doubles.


Agree - and that's the way I dive/dove a dual bladder wing whether I'm wet or dry, only one inflater connected, never both...in fact I never even dove a double bladder wing dry. Actually, I don't even own a dual bladder anymore, I sold it after only a couple months of owning it.

The "three" came from me responding to a comment, several posts ago now, caverdiver27 made about why would you not have both LP inflaters connected to the wing. With that line of thinking you would have three LP hoses when wearing a dry suit but I could have misinterpreted what he was getting at.

It's all good guys, I'm not claiming one method is better than the other. I'm just putting out there what I'm comfortable with, it's safe and it works...for me anyway and apparently for a few other as well.

Getting back to the OP question though. Yea, I think everybody needs to think about having some sort of redundant buoyancy and practice it whichever method you use. Dual bladder, drysuit, doubled up Wal*Mart shopping bags, whatever. I ignored it until it happened to me. Even though I knew it was something I shouldn't and it almost bit me in the a$$, luckily it only nipped me <G>.

I'm for sure going to try Joe's idea of forcing air into my wet suit and seeing how that works.

[MORGAN]

The doubled Wal-Mart bags idea has a very North Florida feel about it...:)

Mike

[Me]

ditto

I've had a run away inflator (power inflator) once and a few on my drysuit. Everytime in a cave and everytime I was headed for the ceiling before I even know what's happening. By the time you start deflating with one hand and try to dissconnect with the other your headed for the ceiling. Everytime I was in an area where I was fairly close to the ceiling already (Lips @ Ginnie is where the power inflator stuck) each time I remember saying to myself...EXHALE and DUCK.

This may sound a little over the top, maybe some of you guys do this too, but what I do now is hold my breath when I power inflate either my wing or my drysuit, that way I can hear if it's stuck. It's just a habit I've gotten into doing now, everytime, it's second nature.


Mike, thanks for the tip on holding your breath when inflating. I had this happen my first trip to Akumal. Fortunately we were not in a decorated passage at the time since I was stuck to the ceiling like a bug. I had popped my inflator hose, but in a wetsuit and al80's it did not take much inflating to put me on the ceiling. There's a humorous story that goes along with the event.....I'll have to share it with you sometime over an adult beverage!