Fatality at Peacock Springs

[John L.]

I just heard an hour ago there was a fatility at PSSP. Has anyone heard anything about what happened. My thoughts and prayers to the family.

[Jim Wyatt]

I am in High Springs today & heard it too....no details. :?:

[HomoErectus]

that cannot be good.
Did the buddy make it out or the whole team is gone?

[Momma]

I am sad to report that there was a fatality in Peacock 3 this afternoon. It was a single fatality. Please be patient a report will be posted once notification of next of kin is confirmed.

Shelley Orlowski

[Dwain]

Here is a copy of the news article from the Gainesville Sun printed in todays paper.

http://cavedivingcentral.com/news/20050105PSSPDeath.swf
http://cavedivingcentral.com/news.html

[Caver95]

an uncertified diver. thats too bad. Was he in a class or something

[DeepSea]

Larry green told me that that anyone can dive caves. The only difference is that certifed cave divers know how to get out. It is a tragedy to see that this happened.

What a tragedy!

[resolute]

This is nothing more than a death caused while trespassing...

The deceased clearly violated the rules and guidelines put in place FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY..

The survivors should be held accountible by the state for taking this non-trained person into a situation that is clearly DANGEROUS to them (as tragically proven) without the proper training.. (if the initial media report is accurate..) Time will tell.

JB

[Tegg]

I notice the article said "not cave certified". I wonder if the diver had cavern or any other "allowed" certification for diving there. :?:

[Gary]

PLEASE! There is always more to any story then what the newspaper says.

Everything remained quiet until the first piece of news was released and then immediately people start jumping to conclusions.

Now I just have to go jump over to The Deco Stop and see what mania they may have started. (It generally starts earlier there, gets worse and lasts longer.) :wink:

I think Shelley promised us the low down when the next of kin was notified. Lets hear the (real) story before getting too overboard.

[Tegg]

PLEASE! There is always more to any story then what the newspaper says.

I think Shelley promised us the low down when the next of kin was notified. Lets hear the (real) story before getting too overboard.

Agreed.

Let our board be the "professional" one. 8)

[Trailridgefire]

Its easy to quarterback this deal from your PC,but lets show a little respect and manners to the folks involved.The facts will be out in due time.I was there from start to finish in this thing and I dont recall any Gainesville Sun reporter there getting any scoop,so hold off on your public floggings and crucifixions.

[Wendy]

I dont recall any Gainesville Sun reporter there getting any scoop,

Generally aren't the articles in the 'Police Beat" section of the paper taken directly from police reports, and most often the preliminary police report, before any investigation has been performed? All the media really wants is to get the story out, and probably not that worried about the accuracy of the events.

[John L.]

No matter what the circumstances, someone lost their live tragically, and all the assumptions and the negative posts are not going to bring him back. I think we should put all this energy into consoling the wife, kids, parents, or whomever he had for family instead of finger pointing and mud slinging.

[Genesis]

Running a corporation that was "in the public eye" for more than 10 years, I can tell you that the media almost never gets it right, and they don't give a good damn if they do or don't. If they ever print a retraction its buried in tiny print somewhere you're unlikely to find it - never on the front page where the original, incorrect, sensationalistic story ran.

Also, if you ever talk to the press, make sure you never use a sentence with more than three words, lest they omit all but the three they want to print and what you see on the page means something entirely different than what you said!

My condolances to the family and friends of the deceased.

[Dave]

Now I just have to go jump over to The Deco Stop and see what mania they may have started. (It generally starts earlier there, gets worse and lasts longer.) :wink:



You just HAVE to huh?...............

Whats the problem? Speculation often leads us down side topics that turn into good discussions. Often there are promises of follow ups of information and it never happens, we just over on to the next big deal. If it turns into personal attacks, then we can cut it off, but simple disccusion of the possibilities should be encouraged, IMO.

[RH]

One of the people involved was a friend of mine and :blackbar2 :blackbar3 couldn't carry this mans tanks! So instead of causing more unneeded grief for the people express your condolences and keep your opinions to yourself. :evil:

[RH]

I mentioned no names only my opinon and you delete the post but you let the others post there opinons about this and all they are doing is making a bad situation worse. :blackbar2 :blackbar3

[Rich]

I mentioned no names only my opinon and you delete the post but you let the others post there opinons about this and all they are doing is making a bad situation worse. :evil:


Come on now Richard.....chill bro' :-) Nobody's really posted an opinion or anything out of line about it on here, and that's a good thing. You probably know as well as I do what happened, so let's not make it any worse for those involved! I would just like to offer my condolences to the family and friends....

Safe diving,

Rich

I mentioned no names only my opinon and you delete the post but you let the others post there opinons about this and all they are doing is making a bad situation worse.

I didn't think the "98% of you sorry a*s F%^ks" was appropriate.

Forum Rules:

6. No personal opinions or endorsements (negative or positive) about individuals, businesses, or cave diving organizations.

I also encourage other posters to keep this post on track and away from violating rule number 6. Please stick to the facts and show some compassion for the individuals involved in this accident.

[Dave]

:blackbar2 :blackbar3 So instead of causing more unneeded grief for the people express your condolences and keep your opinions to yourself. :evil:
Its a public forum, and it may be in your best interest to just not view these threads, if it upsets you that much.
Step back, calm down, and do what you have to do.
These forums are going to dig into the accident, and people will say stuff you dont like, if you cant take that, simply dont log on.
You cannot expect readers to refrain from offering an opinion on this type of subject, not in a public forum.

Dave

[johnm]

I AGREE with RH. Too many people on this page try to second guess or back seat drive every accident. If you were not involved THEN DONT POST INACCURATE ASSumptions. I have lost a good friend in a cave and this board trashed the ordeal. U quoted the news paper( which was wrong). Wait for the OFFICIAL report and RESPECT EVERYONE.

RH send my condolences to his famly and friends.

my email is johnm@jpacmedical.com

if u dont like my opinion email me so RULE #6 or 10 or whatever wont interfere with your thougths.

[Momma]

I am posting this report with great sadness and trepidation. I ask everyone to remember please that the family and friends of the victim have not yet had time to grieve nor have all of the facts become evident. As with any accident, there are conflicting reports of events. This accident is no exception. I will do my best to report the facts. If it seems that some things have been omitted it is because the eyewitness reports were conflicting or it is not known at this time.

Three people entered Peacock III to do a dive to Henley’s Castle. The victim’s certification level was that of Cavern diver. His gear configuration was consistent with an Intro to Cave level diver (single tank PST E8130 with H-valve); he was also carrying a stage bottle. The three divers were exiting the castle when the victim indicated that he was out of air. One of the buddy’s (Buddy #1) gave him a full stage bottle and they continued out. Buddy # 2 subsequently had a problem and Buddy #1 stopped to help. That was the last time either buddy saw the victim. The victim reportedly swam past his stage bottle and continued to exit the cave.
They continued out of the cave expecting to find him on deco. When he was not there, Buddy #2 went for help and reported a missing diver. Buddy #1 went back into the cave to look for him.
The two recovery divers got in the water as Buddy #1 surfaced and reported that he had found him and told the recovery divers where to look. The victim was found approx. 1300 feet from the entrance.
After exiting Henley’s Castle heading outbound the victim had taken the first jump to the left (no reel deployed). He was located about 300 feet down that tunnel facing outbound completely out of gas.

I understand that there are still several unanswered questions at this time and that this report may cause some new ones. I ask that we be patient and I am confident they will be answered in the near future.

My condolences to the family and friends of Mr. Jones.

Respectfully,

Shelley Orlowski

[resolute]

Thanks for posting these additional relevant details Shelley.

Heartfelt condolences to the family and friends of Mr. Jones and all involved in this sad event...

John

[Gary]

Three people entered Peacock III to do a dive to Henley’s Castle. The victim’s certification level was that of Cavern diver. His gear configuration was consistent with an Intro to Cave level diver (single tank PST E8130 with H-valve); he was also carrying a stage bottle. The three divers were exiting the castle when the victim indicated that he was out of air. One of the buddy’s (Buddy #1) gave him a full stage bottle and they continued out. Buddy # 2 subsequently had a problem and Buddy #1 stopped to help. That was the last time either buddy saw the victim. The victim reportedly swam past his stage bottle and continued to exit the cave.
They continued out of the cave expecting to find him on deco. When he was not there, Buddy #2 went for help and reported a missing diver. Buddy #1 went back into the cave to look for him.
The two recovery divers got in the water as Buddy #1 surfaced and reported that he had found him and told the recovery divers where to look. The victim was found approx. 1300 feet from the entrance.
After exiting Henley’s Castle heading outbound the victim had taken the first jump to the left (no reel deployed). He was located about 300 feet down that tunnel facing outbound completely out of gas.


Thanks Shelly,

Something is missing here that is a big question that has already been asked:

Being only cavern certified was the victim diving in the cave in violation of that park rules, as part of a course or with an instructor?

While still not outfitted properly to be diving full cave back to Henley's he looks to have equipped to be at least an H-valve. Was this in some fashion a cave course gone wrong - or a situation where he snuck in on his own?

What was thier max depth and breathing gas?


Thanks,
Gary

[CaveDivingCop]

This is a time of mourning and not speculation....that's why the title of the line is "Mourning" and marked by a black line arrow....Let's all take a moment to think about the victim who was still a person, and who has left behind a family............................................ ............................... :cry:

[bigdave]

What is the distance to Henley's Castle?

TIA,
BD

[L.Babcock]

around 1100 feet to the Jump to Henley's Castle, then roughly another 250 ft down to the depth of 180 to 190 feet , the line stops at a dead end. This cave is very silty and has a siphon.

[bigdave]

around 1100 feet to the Jump to Henley's Castle, then roughly another 250 ft down to the depth of 180 to 190 feet , the line stops at a dead end. This cave is very silty and has a siphon.
Thank you!

BD

[DogDiver]

My sorrow to all those involved. I only hope this does not have a negative impact on those of us that strive to dive correctly. Being personally involved in a "scuba" related tragady I seem more affected by this. Thanks again for all the support from the forum.

Oh, I'm moving down to Branford next weekend. Start work at Shands AGH on Tuesday the 18th. Sea ya all....

[Mike Ferrara]

This is a time of mourning and not speculation....that's why the title of the line is "Mourning" and marked by a black line arrow....Let's all take a moment to think about the victim who was still a person, and who has left behind a family............................................ ............................... :cry:

Of course and who could help but feel for the family. Given the nature of the report thus far some might like to see some accountability in such a seemingly senseless and avoidable tragedy.

[Genesis]

I disagree on the "accountability" thing - since that has already happened - tragically so.

Let's remember folks that whenever we get into the water, we all make a conscious, intentional decision to perform the dive we are about to make. We all have the ability to stick up a thumb at any point in time, and if that thumb is ignored, the universal signal we all possess the right to use is one finger further over. We also bear sole responsibility for our own gas management, for the gauge is on OUR hip, not our buddy's. Likewise, the determination of suitability of the conditions on any given day at any given site against our skill levels is our own - one day a given site may be perfectly fine, yet on another it may be radically beyond our ability to negotiate safely, either due to conditions at the site or even our own personal physical and psychological state.

As such an attempt to assign blame to those who dove with the deceased is, in my opinion, a misplaced attempt to exact (additional) retribution for a decision consciously made by someone who has already made that evaluation, found that it was inaccurate, and paid the ultimate price.

Such calls for someone else to "take a hit" for an incident like this are thus inherently unfair and unreasonable, and to the extent that we contribute to such a "piling on" we take a terrible and unnecessary risk.

In calling for others to be "responsible" for our decision to dive (or not) on any given day and in any given place we make ourselves and those around us less safe, for we delegate, in whole or part, the decision-making process to someone else.

I have long been of the belief that singles in any overhead are unwise, and as such have dove doubles in any overhead - no matter how small or great since. I had my "close call" on a single some time ago (albiet not in a cave) and have no desire for a repeat - it was that incident that formed my opinion and is the reason that you find lots of sets of doubles in my garage. Never do we see people expiring because they have too much gas - the critical problem, other than something medical, is nearly always the reverse. With gas one has time to solve problems - without it one does not. Once panic takes over as the clock ticks down, rational thought - and life - is lost.

Let us instead mourn the loss of a diver, learn what we can from the incident, but use this incident to reinforce that we are all individuals, we all make our own decisions on when and where to dive, and that the responsibility for our choice to stick our head underwater, after careful consideration of our own personal state, the location we are at, the gear we have and know how to use and the environmental conditions on that particular day are exclusively ours.

[Deep-Thief]

AMEN - Brother you are preaching to the choir. It couldn't have been said any better.

[Puttzer]

What about Peacock III makes it a "better" dive that Peacock I? Since I don't even know where III is: it it more secluded and perhaps easier to "sneak" into?

[resolute]

What about Peacock III makes it a "better" dive that Peacock I? Since I don't even know where III is: it it more secluded and perhaps easier to "sneak" into?

Nothing per se makes it "better" - a cave dive's appeal is strictly left to the individual's tastes. It is just a different cave with some distinct characteristics. As previously mentioned, it is a siphon system (usually very slight).. It has generally lower visibility than Peacock I system, and Hendley's Castle is a section that goes deeper (to 185-190 feet or so) than most areas found in Peacock I. It shares the same parking lot as Peacock I's entrance, but is just located off to the side or down the "slough" run, closer to the Suwanee river than Peacock I. It also tends to get far less diver traffic in it due to these characteristics.

JB

[WJH]

I disagree on the "accountability" thing - since that has already happened - tragically so. . . . we all make our own decisions on when and where to dive, and that the responsibility for our choice to stick our head underwater, after careful consideration of our own personal state, the location we are at, the gear we have and know how to use and the environmental conditions on that particular day are exclusively ours.

Best post I've yet to see in response to an accident. Thanks for writing it.

WJH

[BillGraham]

My condolences and prayers to all involved and their families.

[Gary]

http://www.suwanneedemocrat.com/content/1/4149/Diver+drowns+in+Peacock+Springs.htm

[Tegg]

http://www.suwanneedemocrat.com/content/1/4149/Diver+drowns+in+Peacock+Springs.htm

wow.

[John L.]

That whole scenerio was a recipe for disaster right from the get-go. Enough said.

[Momma]

It has come to my attention that I omitted the gas analysis of the tanks.

The back tank had air and the empty stage contained 22%.

Shelley

[Gary]

My buddy and I dove Peacock 3 yesterday. Better then average outflow (still minimal, tannic still in many corners and visibility in most of the passages about 40' - moderate for the system - with dark walls and a fair amount of organic growth) and visibility improving at Henley's and in one other deep room farther up the main line.

My general impression is that conditions 2 days ago were likely similar or worse and that it is amazing the victim/cavern diver didn't turn the dive in the first few hundred feet, much less negotiate the sand slide restriction some 900' or so back and follow his buddies all 1200'+ to Henley's. Dropping down into Henley's by comparison would be relatively easy - even the low, silty bedding plane at 135'.

[HomoErectus]

Does anyone know when the Funeral Services are ?

[MikeH]

While I hate to even comment on this before the official report comes out....I have to wonder one thing. This is, of course, assuming that the reports here are true.

Why in the world would an instructor take a student in a single tank to Hendley's? If this was training for Intro, then the simple fact that they planned to pass a restriction that is not allowed per Intro standards(the sand slide), make a jump, then proceed down Hendleys means that they violated just about all of the training limits.

If this was not a training dive....then they violated even more of the limits of a Cavern diver. I can see a couple guys taking their Cavern certified buddy for a cave dive...though I don't agree with it, and wouldn't do it myself....but to throw an instructor into the mix...??

Mike

[caver]

http://www.suwanneedemocrat.com/content/1/4149/Diver+drowns+in+Peacock+Springs.htm

wow.According to the article, the instructor was quoted as saying they were to do a "deep dive". If a student is cavern certified, and is working on Intro to cave, what training agency requires a deep cave dive to 185 feet on air? Is not the instructor required to do dives within the training agencies outline for that class? Is it normal for an instructor to have a student at his level carry a stage bottle? If an instructor does not teach what the training agency calls for could the instructor be held liable? I feel bad for the familes of the victims and anyone else involved.

[bullfrog]

Hi All, I've been cave certified lesss than a year. Ive been in Peacock I but not III. This has had me asking myself a lot of questions. Could I have made these same mistakes? I've had one of our trio take off in a cave, but we found him making the safety stop. I got lost on a wreck in open water and found myself heading for the stern instead of the bow. I've found myself in the water without all my gear. How about you? Ever mess up? This brings me to my next question, Are you ready to die? How about every time when you get in your car? Lot of things there you can't control. Do you believe in GOD? Do you have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ? Jesus told Nicodemus that to get into heaven "you must be born again". This means admitting you are a sinner, repenting of your sin, and asking Jesus into your life. John 3:16 says for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perrish but have everlasting life. Any other cavers out there not afraid to die because it opens a door to a better life?

[Dave]

around 1100 feet to the Jump to Henley's Castle, then roughly another 250 ft down to the depth of 180 to 190 feet , the line stops at a dead end. This cave is very silty and has a siphon.
No syphon at the time of the incident.

[DeWayne]

If what was reported is true then it was a deep training dive for Page. One thing I find confusing is Heck stating that the plan called for the 3 of them to descend to Henley's, then a couple of paragraphs down it says that he was surprised that Jones descended with them.

[resolute]

Any other cavers out there not afraid to die because it opens a door to a better life?

Interesting question. Personally, I'll say this....

Heaven may be my home, but I AINT homesick!!! nuf said!

JB

[sdenney]

The article in the Suwanee Democrat had most of the story, however there are a few things to clarify:

A. This was not a class. It was just three guys out for a dive. The purpose of the dive was to test out Gene's new Ikelite camera housing at depth.

B. David has been diving with Al for many years, and David had more experience than would be let on by merely his Cavern certification. Gene is Intro. to Cave certified and has also been diving with Al for many years.

C. Gene and Al were in doubles, David was in a single tank. Gene had a stage bottle and Al had two stages (one for David and one for himself). They dropped their stage bottles at the restriction leading to Hendley's Castle.

D. On the way out, as David was running low on gas, he spooked and took off once through the restriction where they had left their stages. By the time Gene had gotten past the restriction, David's light was just a faint glimmer and when Al was through the restriction David was long gone.

E. Once Gene and Al got to there Deco bottles, they didn't see David. Both Gene and Al had not used their stages, so Al took both stages and went searching for David as Gene completed his Deco to get help.

The lesson to be learned here is that training, the lack thereof, was the single thing that caused this tragedy to occur. Both Gene and Al feel very bad about what transpired as they keep running "what if..."s through their minds.

This tragedy hits home with many of us, and I hope we can all learn from it.

[Dave]

Hi All, I've been cave certified lesss than a year. Ive been in Peacock I but not III. This has had me asking myself a lot of questions. Could I have made these same mistakes? I've had one of our trio take off in a cave, but we found him making the safety stop. I got lost on a wreck in open water and found myself heading for the stern instead of the bow. I've found myself in the water without all my gear. How about you? Ever mess up? This brings me to my next question, Are you ready to die? How about every time when you get in your car? Lot of things there you can't control. Do you believe in GOD? Do you have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ? Jesus told Nicodemus that to get into heaven "you must be born again". This means admitting you are a sinner, repenting of your sin, and asking Jesus into your life. John 3:16 says for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perrish but have everlasting life. Any other cavers out there not afraid to die because it opens a door to a better life?

Tha answer to all of your questions is team work and proceedures, not god.


I've had one of our trio take off in a cave, but we found him making the safety stop.....poor teamwork/proceedures


I got lost on a wreck in open water and found myself heading for the stern instead of the bow........poor teamwork/proceedures


I've found myself in the water without all my gear......poor teamwork/proceedures

Yes we all mess up, but usually because we forget one of the golden rules, very very rarely is it an act of your God.

Dave.

[MikeH]

Hi All, I've been cave certified lesss than a year. Ive been in Peacock I but not III. This has had me asking myself a lot of questions. Could I have made these same mistakes? I've had one of our trio take off in a cave, but we found him making the safety stop. I got lost on a wreck in open water and found myself heading for the stern instead of the bow. I've found myself in the water without all my gear. How about you? Ever mess up? This brings me to my next question, Are you ready to die? How about every time when you get in your car? Lot of things there you can't control. Do you believe in GOD? Do you have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ? Jesus told Nicodemus that to get into heaven "you must be born again". This means admitting you are a sinner, repenting of your sin, and asking Jesus into your life. John 3:16 says for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perrish but have everlasting life. Any other cavers out there not afraid to die because it opens a door to a better life?

Hmm....some of MY posts are edited, but bullsh!t like THIS is allowed to stay? Are we now a religious cave diving cult forum? This loser obviously only threw some diving references in there to post all his(or her) religious fanatical bullsh!t. This should be deleted unless you want this to turn into a full blown religious/theological debate. Just my not so humble opinion.

Mike

[resolute]

[Hmm....some of MY posts are edited, but bullsh!t like THIS is allowed to stay? Mike

Ahhhh - come on Mike - I've never seen you post any BS at all worth any moderator's wrath...

But you are right - we certainly don't need any cave diving cults out there !! We have enough issues to deal with already!

Best Rgds.,
JB

[Deep-Thief]

I have only been on here for a couple of days but, If you believe in God or Jesus thats fine. Just don't push your crap on me. If you aren't ready to die then just quit living. There are risks with anything you do. If you aren't prepared to take those risks then do something else.

[DeWayne]

I find it hard to believe that anyone could take offense to Bullfrog's post. I know the man and respect him, as well as his diving ability. If you don't agree with his philosophy that is certainly your freedom to exercise. But there is really no call for attacking someone simply because they expressed their beliefs in public.

[DeWayne]

snip...If you aren't ready to die then just quit living...

At least what Bullfrog posted made some sense.

[Moonfuzzy]

Ive been in Peacock I but not III.

PIII has half the vis of less of Peacock, and they took a jump down through a restriction at 130' to a breakdown room that goes to 180'. I'd say that is at least two if not three levels of training from Inrto, let alone cavern.



This has had me asking myself a lot of questions. Could I have made these same mistakes? I've had one of our trio take off in a cave, but we found him making the safety stop. I got lost on a wreck in open water and found myself heading for the stern instead of the bow. I've found myself in the water without all my gear. How about you? Ever mess up?

The BIG difference here is that when something goes wrong and you have lots of reserve gas you hame TIME. These things end up being a small annoyance if you have the gas and esperiance to realize you have made a mistake and fix it.. keep your eyes open and KNOW the cave (or boat) without needing to follow the line out. If you find yourself somewhere in the cave you couldn't get out of without a line you need to know the cave better.


Any other cavers out there not afraid to die because it opens a door to a better life?
Bringing religion into it, huh? Not too common on this board. I guess I will get off the train I was just about to take and drop this here..

[MikeH]

I find it hard to believe that anyone could take offense to Bullfrog's post. I know the man and respect him, as well as his diving ability. If you don't agree with his philosophy that is certainly your freedom to exercise. But there is really no call for attacking someone simply because they expressed their beliefs in public.

Offense? No...but I don't try to push my beliefs on him, so he needs to back the hell off and give others the same courtesy. This is not the place for it. He can go peddle his religious beliefs on a board dedicated to religion.

I don't know him(not that I'm aware of, anyways), but I'd be willing to bet that he's one of those that tries to push his religion on you just a few minutes after you meet him. If I ask somebody about, or show interest in their religious beliefs when they mention something religious, preach on. Otherwise, STFU.

There are a few types of conversations I try not to get involved in, because they never go anywhere, can get heated very quickly, and never change anybodys mind. Religion is at the top of my list. I guess I'll have to look and see if there's an ignore feature on this board.

Mike

[Deep-Thief]

snip...If you aren't ready to die then just quit living...

At least what Bullfrog posted made some sense.

I guess I need to clarify myself. There are risks in anything you do. If you go for a walk across the street you are taking the chance you won't get hit by a bus. When you drive to work you are taking a chance you won't get into an accident. If you want to quit living your life and hide yourself in a house and take no extra risks, fine, but you WILL, still die. So lets live our lives a little and have some fun. If its your time to go then I guess we all have to say goodbye. Lets also try not to blame someone else for our risks and/or mistakes.

Hey MikeH, don't forget to put politics at the top of your list. Although under religion it is at the top of mine.

[Widiver_Paul]

After reading the dive report, I was left wondering, in addition to the choice to do the dive in the first place with that equipment and in that location with that level of training,


How is it that the other 2 in the team weren't wondering why diver #3 wasn't turning the dive far earlier knowing he had only approx. 43cf of back gas to penetrate???


This would just seem to be common sense to me. I would guess he was dry in backgas at the turnaround. But why did they allow this to happen?? Narcosis from deep air??

Awareness, planning, buddy choice, incremental familiarity, adherence to the cardinal rules of CD.....

this really makes me ill.


Big thanks to John, the recovery team, Shelly for the update and Park management and the rangers for having to endure this (again). My prayers are with everyone's families, this is something I wouldn't want mine to go through.

Would it be wise to make P3 Full Cave, no training and/or Abe Davis only?

Maybe we should have a poll on this one as to whether we should try to save people from themselves again with another sign....

[Dave]

I Must have missed that bit.

[Widiver_Paul]

I Must have missed that bit.

Geez, I thought the stuff about Chakras in my CD manual was weird, but this takes the cake.

[Genesis]

Would it be wise to make P3 Full Cave, no training and/or Abe Davis only?

Maybe we should have a poll on this one as to whether we should try to save people from themselves again with another sign....
Disagree strongly.

While this dive plan was definitely not cool (that perhaps being the understatement of the year), exhibiting a thumb when the victim hit thirds would have resulted in it being a non-event.

Any other cavers out there not afraid to die because it opens a door to a better life?

Well, that's not the reason I'm not afraid to die. I'm not afraid to die because I am immortal. I've not been proven wrong yet.

[DeWayne]

I find it hard to believe that anyone could take offense to Bullfrog's post. I know the man and respect him, as well as his diving ability. If you don't agree with his philosophy that is certainly your freedom to exercise. But there is really no call for attacking someone simply because they expressed their beliefs in public.

Offense? No...but I don't try to push my beliefs on him, so he needs to back the hell off and give others the same courtesy. This is not the place for it. He can go peddle his religious beliefs on a board dedicated to religion.

I don't know him(not that I'm aware of, anyways), but I'd be willing to bet that he's one of those that tries to push his religion on you just a few minutes after you meet him. If I ask somebody about, or show interest in their religious beliefs when they mention something religious, preach on. Otherwise, STFU.

There are a few types of conversations I try not to get involved in, because they never go anywhere, can get heated very quickly, and never change anybodys mind. Religion is at the top of my list. I guess I'll have to look and see if there's an ignore feature on this board.

Mike

Actually, he's nothing like the zealots you are making him out to be. He will openly tell you his beliefs and if interest is shown he will discuss it further. He is just as content discussing cave diving or some other subject of the day. I fail to see where his post has "pushed his beliefs" on anyone here. He stated his convictions and posed a question for anyone interested enough in reading it. As an American he has just as much right to state his opinion as you have to voice your opposition to it. Notice that you have carried it a lot farther than he has. Respect his beliefs and he will respect yours. Actually, knowing him as I do I feel that I can say that he is respecting your beliefs despite your lack of respect for his.

[DeWayne]

Well, that's not the reason I'm not afraid to die. I'm not afraid to die because I am immortal. I've not been proven wrong yet.

I think I have you beat hands down on that one 8)

[Kenny P.]

Well, that's not the reason I'm not afraid to die. I'm not afraid to die because I am immortal. I've not been proven wrong yet.

I think I have you beat hands down on that one 8)

Doc.,
I guess you have every privilege to feel this way. If you wasn't dead, you were too close to call, without instant replay. I should be dead but ain't but I'm afraid. Streets of gold sounds cool enough and you know what I beleive! I like the chrome on my brass regulators and manifold and hot dipped galvanize on my 104's too. Streets of gold, later O.K., much later! I feel for all involved in this. Much sounds wrong but everyone went in willingly for some fun. Been there done that! No T-shirt, just bad memories, real bad.
Bless Buddy,
Kenny P.

[DeWayne]

Well, that's not the reason I'm not afraid to die. I'm not afraid to die because I am immortal. I've not been proven wrong yet.

I think I have you beat hands down on that one 8)

Doc.,
I guess you have every privilege to feel this way. If you wasn't dead, you were too close to call, without instant replay. I should be dead but ain't but I'm afraid. Streets of gold sounds cool enough and you know what I beleive! I like the chrome on my brass regulators and manifold and hot dipped galvanize on my 104's too. Streets of gold, later O.K., much later! I feel for all involved in this. Much sounds wrong but everyone went in willingly for some fun. Been there done that! No T-shirt, just bad memories, real bad.
Bless Buddy,
Kenny P.

I hear what you're saying Kenny. Not in a hurry myself for a cloud diving cert, but when the day does come I will be ready for it.

[Widiver_Paul]

I'm not saying I don't understand John 3:16 and that every time I get to the water i'm not squared away mentally enough to be ready to "go somewhere else"; I am and I do.

It's just the last person that came right out and started preaching at me was at a Lake in Texas, a park, in 1990.

That was David Koresh.

[Kenny P.]

I'm not saying I don't understand John 3:16 and that every time I get to the water i'm not squared away mentally enough to be ready to "go somewhere else"; I am and I do.

It's just the last person that came right out and started preaching at me was at a Lake in Texas, a park, in 1990.

That was David Koresh.

Now I don't keep a diary but that might have made me start one. Your feelings are duly noted!
Thanks for your thoughts,
Kenny P.

[Moonfuzzy]

How is it that the other 2 in the team weren't wondering why diver #3 wasn't turning the dive far earlier knowing he had only approx. 43cf of back gas to penetrate???

**I am not trying to justify the choices they made, just discuss the gas situation and why they might have expected to get to their destination**

From the rumors I have heard he had a single 120 on his back and was carrying a stage (120 + 80 = 200). That is what my doubles hold and would give him 67 cuft to penetrate (200 / 3 = 67). I wouldn't go hang out in Henley's with only that much gas, but I certainly could get there and back without a problem.

In addition it sounds like one of his buddies was carrying a safety bottle that got handed off which MAY have been full (200 + 80 = 280 cuft total) or MAY have been partially empty (200 + 60 = 260 cuft total). We don't know how much gas he had remaining at that point, he might have had only what was in the stage. That said, he must have used MORE than his 67 cuft to get in, because he asked for more air..



Would it be wise to make P3 Full Cave, no training and/or Abe Davis only?

Maybe we should have a poll on this one as to whether we should try to save people from themselves again with another sign....

There is a LOT of cave in there that is pretty shallow, with vis ranging from 50'-60' on a good day to 5' on a bad day. A diver can choose NOT TO go down into Henley's castle.

I think the cave has a lot to offer a wide range of divers, and it would be really sad to me if it was closed off to people because it has one deep spot (that you have to go out of your way to get to). Following this logic Peacock would be closed to anyone not full cave/abe davis, because of the Crypt, and Little River would be closed to anyone not full cave/abe davis because of the deep section, among other caves. 'Protecting' people from themselves is a dangerous road, and reinforces the idea that they don't have to think for themselves since someone else is taking care of it for them.