Cheryl/Emerald Sinks- Site Access

[johnnyrichards]

The time has come to make a concerted effort to obtain site access to Cheryl and Emerald Sinks located in Wakulla Springs State Park just south of Tallahassee. For the past several years these sites have been closed for access to all but divers involved with the WKPP.

Cheryl and Emerald were both privately owned for many years, but have now been incorporated within Wakulla Springs State Park. These state-owned sites were purchased through the use of public funds and are supported by your tax dollars.

A cooperative effort was made by GUE (Jarrod Jablonski), IANTD (Tom Mount), NACD (Johnny Richards), NSS-CDS (Ken Hill) and TDI (Larry Green) to obtain access to Cheryl and Emerald Sinks. Despite the best efforts of the agency representatives, Park Management has refused to respond to this request for access. Not only did the Site Access Proposal provide for diver qualification, it also proposed a system by which access fees would be paid to Wakulla Park to assist in financially supporting this Park.

Whether you are a resident of Florida or not, your tax dollars assist in supporting this State Park. Sales, gasoline, use and property taxes are paid by each of us- we should receive the benefit of our payment of taxes. The exclusion of all but a relatively small group of divers from a state-owned site is unconscionable. Can you imagine the reaction if Peacock State Park were closed to all divers except those involved in a claimed "scientific research project"?

If you are a Florida resident, please write your State Representative and State Senator with copies to Governor Bush's office and Florida Department of Environmental Protection, Ms. Colleen Castille, Secretary, 3900 Commonwealth Boulevard, M.S. 49, Tallahassee, Florida 32399. You may locate the name and address of your elected officials at www.myflorida.com.

If you are not a Florida resident, please send a letter to Governor Jeb Bush, PL 05, The Capitol, 400 South Monroe Street, Tallahassee, Florida 32399-0001 with a copy to Ms. Castille.

Sample letters may be found at the NACD website- www.safecavediving.com.

There is nothing that will benefit us as a group any more than access to more caves sites. The recent re-opening of Hart Springs is proof that this can be done.

The time for exclusive access to a select group under the guise of scientific research should now come to an end.

Let's get these caves open and go diving!!!!!!!

Johnny Richards

[Ken Hill]

For nearly two years there has been a concerted effort to get these sites open. Johnny Richards has taken the lead and has my trust and the backing of the sources I can muster to help him.

Please do your part. Do it politely and do it professionally. Have a happy and a safe New Year. /Ken

[Herbie]

any and all involved in opening Cheryl/Emerald sinks or any other caves for that matter. We should rally on this issue , its one of the few the majority of us can agree on. John has sounded the battle cry , CAVE DIVERS of the WORLD UNITE and take over. :smt068

[Caver95]

I am in tallahassee, someone give me a call, I would love to help.
Nick

[Moonfuzzy]

After reading the NACD website and one of the letters it seems like the groups have really decided to play hardball with the park manager.

Can someone explain why? What other alternatives have been looked at? What did the submitted proposal look like?

This seems like a good way for us to get on somebody's bad side, and stay there (especially if she is around for a while after the dust settles). I'd like to know more before sending off letters.

[bigbaldberg]

while having congenial dialogue with the managment sounds nice, it's not the only way to obtain one's goals. the state keeps grabing private lands and supossedly for public use. ask any of the homeowners in stiltsville. without a little bite behind our gentle barking , our desires will not be met by the 400 lb gorrila we call the government. eagles nest, for all intensive purposes, was easy to gain access to. the state has taken over almost ever whole in the ground near wakkula for public use. do we not have a right as american/taxpayers/citizen to use public recreational land for recreation? so much of the discussion on this forum seems to shy away from exercising one's rights under the law and simply excepting whatever the allmighty government allows us to do. in summary, IT'S OUR RIGHT TO USE PUBLIC LAND FOR RECREATION. DEMAND YOUR RIGHTS. DON'T BE A MALODOROUS VAGINAL DRIPPING

[Genesis]

How about some FOIAs asking for the meeting minutes and documentation that the "Florida Sunshine" law was complied with up to this point?

FOIAs are a simple matter of a few stamps and letters drafted in a specific format, and they compel a state agency to respond (truthfully as well.)

[bigbaldberg]

yes, the "freedom of information act" would probably apply, if minutes were kept. that would require people to exercise rights as citizens. go for it

[resolute]

After reading the NACD website and one of the letters it seems like the groups have really decided to play hardball with the park manager.

Can someone explain why? What other alternatives have been looked at? What did the submitted proposal look like?

This seems like a good way for us to get on somebody's bad side, and stay there (especially if she is around for a while after the dust settles). I'd like to know more before sending off letters.

Sounds to me like the park manager NEEDS to have hardball played with them (in a professional/above board manner), if other methods have been unfruitful. As long as I have been around, this has not been done (that I have seen or heard) - if enough heat is applied in the right places and in an effective manner, hopefully this person who is effectively a "logjam" can be minimized within the equation. After all they are in a position of accountablity to the patrons of the State Parks (not just one group) and responsiveness is part of their job and should be DEMANDED (in a professional manner). Everyone needs to take this seriously and be very persistant. How can things be or get any worse than they are now for THE MAJORITY OF QUALIFIED CAVE DIVERS in that area? Think about it that way! There is nothing to lose for the general cave diving public and everything to gain. It is only the ones who are currently in the system that have anything to lose and that is why they have contantly used the same overblown fear tactics in their dialogue for years with the appropriate parties who have only heard what they have wanted them to hear.

Remember to also urge any other friends and relatives of yours who are Florida residents to also make their voices heard (educate them..) - grass roots actions get results with issues like this.. and numbers will only help the movement to gain access.

JB

[johnnyrichards]

Casey McKinlay's response on another forum takes the position that there is nothing exclusive about the WKPP. Among other qualifications, referral by a current WKPP member is required of which "there are almost 100".

ALMOST ONE HUNDRED????!!!!!! So, out of the approximately 10,000 cave divers worldwide, "almost 100" have exclsuive access to these sites?

Yes, it is time to do something other than talk.

Johnny Richards

[Genesis]

As soon as I get back from the social I'll start drafting the FOIAs, and will also consider putting up a faxed petiton - I have the software already, as I use it for other political lobbying purposes.

Thank you Johnny for coordinating this and bringing it to the forefront! Now its our turn, collectively as divers and citizens, to take the ball and make our voices heard.

[Rich]

Yes, it is time to do something other than talk.

Johnny Richards

I couldn't agree more......as others mentioned, we have nothing to lose and plenty to gain :-D

Safe diving and happy holidays,

Rich

[Moonfuzzy]

As soon as I get back from the social I'll start drafting the FOIAs, and will also consider putting up a faxed petiton - I have the software already, as I use it for other political lobbying purposes.

This sounds like a good place to start, and could provide useful information for later. Thank you for taking it on.

[Joaquin]

Viva Johnny!

Keep up the good work!

Hope that also we foreigners can benefit one day from your good initiatives!

Look forward diving Wakulla one day with you!

Regards,

Joaquin
Madrid, Spain, Europe

[Genesis]

Ok, before I send off this FOIA, anyone have comments?

I am also putting together the petition and should have that online this evening or tomorrow. I will set up a new thread for that one.

Feel free to copy this URL; while the content may change the URL will not.

http://www.denninger.net/WakullaFOIARequest.htm

Comments please.....

[Rich]

http://www.denninger.net/WakullaFOIARequest.htm

Comments please.....

Looks great Karl, thanks for taking the time to do this :D

Safe diving,

Rich

[resolute]

You ARE sending it (the hard copy) certified mail (return receipt) RIGHT??? (so IT won't "get lost" or go unanswered as other things seem to have thus far..) Thanks for your efforts..

JB

[mcmacken]

Ok, before I send off this FOIA, anyone have comments?

I am also putting together the petition and should have that online this evening or tomorrow. I will set up a new thread for that one.

Feel free to copy this URL; while the content may change the URL will not.

http://www.denninger.net/WakullaFOIARequest.htm

Comments please.....

IMHO I don't think any reference to the WKPP belongs here. The great strength of the original petition was the broad support it received from the training agencies. If this action is perceived to contain ill-will towards the WKPP, I don't think GUE will be too interested in participating.
I think the main point is that a reasonable proposal was made to the Park, but no feedback is available. I don't think that questioning the relationship between the park and the group currently holding a permit is useful. Sorry if I have misinterpreted your meaning.

[Genesis]

You ARE sending it (the hard copy) certified mail (return receipt) RIGHT??? (so IT won't "get lost" or go unanswered as other things seem to have thus far..) Thanks for your efforts..

JB

You bet.

And I'm also putting the petition up for FAX on my "politics fax" server. Its on there now, at http://www.politics-fax.org/petitions/petition-wakulla-1-online.htm but as of right now the sign button doesn't work (the database is turned off right now behind it) until I get the wording as the various authors want.

Frankly, I think we need to invoke the "discrimination" word in the petitions...

That ssytem, by the way, FAXES all the people I configure in. Sandra, Jeb, and probably the DEP's office manager will get these. There are hard records kept and the database is HERE, so they can't go "missing' on the other end.

The politics-fax system is specifically designed for political lobbying efforts - its part of what I do with my life these days, albiet normally in other areas of concern.... :)

[Genesis]

Ok, before I send off this FOIA, anyone have comments?

I am also putting together the petition and should have that online this evening or tomorrow. I will set up a new thread for that one.

Feel free to copy this URL; while the content may change the URL will not.

http://www.denninger.net/WakullaFOIARequest.htm

Comments please.....

IMHO I don't think any reference to the WKPP belongs here. The great strength of the original petition was the broad support it received from the training agencies. If this action is perceived to contain ill-will towards the WKPP, I don't think GUE will be too interested in participating.
I think the main point is that a reasonable proposal was made to the Park, but no feedback is available. I don't think that questioning the relationship between the park and the group currently holding a permit is useful. Sorry if I have misinterpreted your meaning.

The FOIA request is completely disjoint from the petition effort.

The FOIA is coming from me, personally, as an individual.

The petitions are coming from divers, and the text the petition system is going to use is exactly that which Johnny Richards drafted (subject to any revisions that he and I work on; I've put in a request for his commentary on the petition.)

There are two issues here, but both are connected:

1. How to get the Wakulla Park Management to be responsive to the taxpayers - that'd be all the people who cavedive, since we spend tax money one way or another doing so, and this is public land managed under the public's trust by the state. The petition effort that Johnny initiated is working towards this effort. BTW, don't be too surprised if not "all" of the agencies that signed on to this are as solidly behind it today as they were when they signed......

2. Discovering if there have been any "back room deals" made in violation of the Florida State Sunshine law in the past that have impacted taxpayer access to these sites, if any of that constitutes discriminatory conduct which is improper under the charter of the Park Service, and if so, putting a stop to it for the future.

The petition effort is aimed at (1).

My FOIA request is aimed at (2).

They are in no way connected except that I support both.
The latter, in fact, is something I've been looking for a "good time" to do for quite a while. This just happens to be a "good time."

Someone signing the petition is in no way lending support to my personal FOIA aimed at the State Government organs that are involved in this situation.

If someone else wants to "borrow" language from my FOIA and file their own, that is their right, of course..... but deciding to sign the petition in no way endorses my private FOIA expedition.

I see nothing to lose by it, however, unless you're one of the "100" who currently can dive Cheryl and Emerald. The access situation can't get more closed for the rest of the cavediving community than it is now.

And before someone screams 'personal interest!' I am not currently qualified under the proposed access rules to dive those sites.

[Al]

Ok, before I send off this FOIA, anyone have comments?



The politics of access have been so far best handled by coordinated agency or "known name" contacts without "help" from the masses. I would hope that you are coordinating this with the agency people who are on point of contact, so it does not interfere with their efforts. It seems to me you are just trying to cause problems for others. Under the current proposal, you would not be permitted to dive in these places. You have nothing to gain or lose; leave this to those that do and have the experience in dealing with this.

al wells

[Genesis]

How is acting as a concerned citizen to discover if public land is being properly managed in the public trust, within the confines of the law, "interference"?

I pay taxes in this state, including those that support the Wakulla Park.

I have a right as a citizen, under the Florida Constitution, to these records, and to display what I get back from the FOIA request on a public web page.

I fail to see where an objection could possibly come from, unless of course someone has been doing things they shouldn't be!

As for not having anything to lose, there you are incorrect. We all lose as citizens when land in the public trust is abused for the personal peccadillos of special interest groups and others are excluded. By definition when such decisions are made without open, public debate, we have all been robbed. This is the very reason for the Florida Public Records Law (the "Florida Sunshine" Law) and the ensconcement of this right in the Florida Constitution.

[resolute]

Ok, before I send off this FOIA, anyone have comments?



The politics of access have been so far best handled by coordinated agency or "known name" contacts without "help" from the masses. I would hope that you are coordinating this with the agency people who are on point of contact, so it does not interfere with their efforts. It seems to me you are just trying to cause problems for others. Under the current proposal, you would not be permitted to dive in these places. You have nothing to gain or lose; leave this to those that do and have the experience in dealing with this.

al wells

With all due respect Al..

It seems to me that this is the way things have been done and handled over the years, time and time again by the cave diving community with little to show in the area (in fact things have just gotten worse in that area..). I would agree with Genesis on his point that each and every citizen has the right to know what is going on within THEIR state government. Government should be the most transparent area of our life (with the possible exception of national security matters, which I hardly think Wakulla State Park falls under..).

Additionally, just because you are not qualified RIGHT NOW to dive the systems does not mean you don't have a stake in this matter. Don't you want it available if and when you are qualified to dive it in the future. Don't you care if your friends and buddies who might be qualified to dive it have the opportunity? And most of all, don't you care because what is going on WRT this public land is JUST PLAIN WRONG !?!

As he said, he' s doing the FOIA as an individual, we may each not agree with it (that's cool..), but the petition IS one thing we should all agree on...

What's the definition of insanity?

Doing things the same way over and over and hoping for different results - think about it...

JB

[normblitch]

...topic thread drift...

http://tinyurl.com/5a7ha

Norm

[DeWayne]

I think you worded the request beautifully Karl. Everything there seems to be in order with the FOIA. There is a need to mention WKPP as they have control there now. Be sure to drop me a line once you have the petition ready for signing.

[Genesis]

I think you worded the request beautifully Karl. Everything there seems to be in order with the FOIA. There is a need to mention WKPP as they have control there now. Be sure to drop me a line once you have the petition ready for signing.

Will.

Checking the back end stuff now, and making sure the format works properly when the faxes go out (faxing yourself is so much fun!)

Should have it operational this afternoon or tomorrow.

[DeWayne]

I think you worded the request beautifully Karl. Everything there seems to be in order with the FOIA. There is a need to mention WKPP as they have control there now. Be sure to drop me a line once you have the petition ready for signing.

Will.

Checking the back end stuff now, and making sure the format works properly when the faxes go out (faxing yourself is so much fun!)

Should have it operational this afternoon or tomorrow.

Just linked to it through your site and it worked great. Got the confirmation email and sent the reply on that so I guess that makes me official now. I can only hope that the non-divers on my email list will think about me favorably and sign it as well.

[Rich]

For those living and/or diving around cave country who haven't had a chance to sign the petition to Governor Jeb Bush about Emerald/Cheryl access, Larry and Debra Green just dropped it off and it'll be at Cave Excursions East for a while....

We have over 100 signatures so far, so please come on out and let's see what we can do about getting these beautiful systems reopened to qualified individuals!!

If you live up in the Tallahassee area or down south of here there are also 2 more petitions being circled. When I find out where these are at, I'll be sure to post the locations.....

What a great start to the New Year, and thanks to all those involved who are donating their valuable time to this effort.... :D

Safe diving,

Rich

[Widiver_Paul]

Ok, before I send off this FOIA, anyone have comments?

I am also putting together the petition and should have that online this evening or tomorrow. I will set up a new thread for that one.

Feel free to copy this URL; while the content may change the URL will not.

http://www.denninger.net/WakullaFOIARequest.htm

Comments please.....


Good job!

Your FOIA doc was well-written and should crawl right up the ass of the people that are standing in the way.

Mark my words, we'll be diving Wakulla County this time next year.

[Genesis]

The access petition (which is NOT connected to the FOIA) is available on the other thread on this matter, or, for those who want a direct link here...

http://www.politics-fax.org/petitions/petition-wakulla-1-online.htm

[resolute]

Mark my words, we'll be diving Wakulla this time next year.

Typo correction noted..

This proposal is NOT about diving Wakulla! It IS about opening Cheryl and Emerald Sinks for diving to QUALIFIED divers. Please keep the facts straight, in order to present them in a accurate manner to all those affected. Thanks for your support though and please PERSONALLY encourage everyone you know to respond.

JB

[Dave]

Mark my words, we'll be diving Wakulla this time next year.

This proposal is NOT about diving Wakulla! It IS about opening Cheryl and Emerald Sinks for diving to QUALIFIED divers. Please keep the facts straight, in order to present them in a accurate manner to all those affected. Thanks for your support though and please PERSONALLY encourage everyone you know to respond.

JB
Just proof that some of the people getting all emotional about it, have no idea......
If your going to sign a petition, at least know what your signing first.

[Widiver_Paul]

Aww come on you're banging me on the head for saying Wakulla as an abbreviation for Wakulla Springs State Park and/or Wakulla County??? I realise the petition is primarily for Cheryl and Emerald. We all know the implications of this campaign would be much farther-reaching than these two systems.

[Al]

As he said, he' s doing the FOIA as an individual, we may each not agree with it (that's cool..), but the petition IS one thing we should all agree on...

What's the definition of insanity?

Doing things the same way over and over and hoping for different results - think about it...

JB

John, the recent track record of the agency folks and some other respected divers has resulted in the reopening of dive sites like Eagle's Nest, Hart and Madison (although that one was a CF, but was finally fixed). Cheryl and Emerald have been until recently under private control, so these places are a relatively new issue. I don't know Johnny or Karl, so I am checking the wording of Karl's petition with an involved agency official I do know and respect before making a decision on signing.

The FOIA demand is a different issue. I think it reeks of an accusation of wrongdoing, and should be a last resort when there are no bridges left to burn. This may be appropriate at some time, but I would like to see a sign off by the current points of contact before it is filed. Political efforts like this must be coordinated, and fragmented efforts can sometimes do more harm than good. Of course, it is being filed by an individual on his own behalf, but let's not pretend it can't have an effect on negotiations or outcome, especially if a significant number of signatures comes from his website.

al wells

[Genesis]

First things first.

It is my position that someone who has nothing to hide should not fear an FOIA. Indeed, a FOIA should be a null operation, because an agency or person operating "above board" should have published all the records already!

In other words, such a thing should simply not ever need to be sent, because one should be able to discover the facts without it. It should be nothing more than the waste of a perfectly good 37 cent stamp.

That has clearly not been the case in this instance.

The agency proposal that is the subject of the petition was, according to Johnny's letter at www.safecavediving.com, penned back in February of 2004, signed by the participants, and submitted.

According to that page, there has been nothing but stony silence in reply despite multiple attempts to elicit a response - any response.

That proposal didn't come from one person or agency - it came from all of the agencies.

We're talking ten months without so much as a return phone call, letter, or email.

Exactly how does one "negotiate" with a brick wall?

The level of cooperation exhibited in this proposal - presenting a unified front from ALL the major agencies - is, to my knowledge, unpredented. It is rare from what I've seen that even two agencies can agree on matters such as this. To get all of them on the same page is a really big deal.

As a consequence of this silence Johnny Richards asked, right here, for people to send letters, and provided a sample. He also provided a petition, which largely is the letter. I took the latter, reformatted it and set up the database backend to handle the electronic side of it, ran it by Johnny, and turned it on.

The petitions are not just coming from an electronic system which I own - I also understand that paper copies are at several places where cave divers "congregate" and that large numbers of ink-style signatures are being obtained. The electronic petition is nearly identical in substance with only minor changes and one obvious typo corrected. Johnny Richards has seen and approves of the electronic version; as the coordinator of the original effort, he's "the source".

The FOIA, on the other hand, is not an electronic effort. It can't be an electronic effort. By definition such a request has to come in paper form and isn't a petition - its effectively a demand for complience with the law of this state.

I have long considered sending the FOIA, dating back to roughly when discussion of this issue began in public back in early '04. I decided to hold off on doing so for a number of reasons, not the least of which was the possibility of forward motion, even though my discussion of same led me to being declared "persona-non-grata" on another diving forum.

10 months later, it is clear that a few more nudges to the wall will be required to obtain movement. The petitions are certainly a part of it, but to solve this one problem without solving the underlying issues that caused this to occur in the first place will leave us with the prospect of having to do this all over again - complete with the stonewalling - the next time a similar issue arises. It will also lead us to never really knowing if whatever we achieve with Cheryl and Emerald is a real solution, or something that will "disappear" at some random time in the future - without appeal, notice, or hearing.

At this point I have concluded that there is nothing to lose for 99% of cave divers who currently do not have access to these sites by making an effort to bring it all out in the open. I have also concluded that despite the outcome of the petition effort with Cheryl and Emerald, there is but one way to prevent similar issues in the future and protect what the petitions achieve, and that is to force out into the open - where it should have been (under the law and Florida Constitution) in the first place - the details of what has transpired there to date.

I understand that some will not agree with the FOIA being sent, but sent it will be. I also understand (and have spoken with many) who do agree with it going forward, including some who are very influential and well-respected in the "community", and some who have even pledged monetary and tactical support in its enforcement, should that become necessary.

Judge the two efforts as the separate efforts that they are. If you do not wish to associate yourself with the FOIA, then don't. I've not asked for assistance there, nor for 'signatories' - that effort is mine alone, although I have pledged to publish everything I get back on the web so that there are no "secrets" or "debates" about what was or was not returned - or what happened in the meantime.

Irrespective of your feelings on the FOIA, the petition effort is one that really is a matter of whether you believe in open, objective standards for access to public lands.

If you believe that as a taxpayer you have a right to have public land managed in the public trust, with open, objective, written standards for access, then you must sign the petition. Whether you do it on paper or electronically - you simply must sign it, because to refuse to do so is to agree that discriminatory, closed, non-public and arbitrary access rules are "ok" with you. To argue that this sort of thing is "ok" is to doom your access to cave dive down the road. Consider this - exactly what, other than an open, public process in the sunshine - prevents the same thing that is happening with Cheryl from happening to Manatee, Madison, Jackson Blue or even Peacock? NOTHING.

Site access is one of the issues in this activity. While I've advocated solutions in the legislature for the private landowner problems we all have encountered (specifically, the passage of a "Sportsman Act" for diving) this is an entirely different matter. The land in question here is public, owned by you and I - it is not and should not be allowed to be handled as a private resource for the exclusive use of less than 1% of the cavediving population.

In that it appears all the major agencies, along with myself, agree.

[Big Easy]

Al, your concerns are well founded. Karl has a clear agenda, and site access is not it.

Johnny on the other hand is a stand up guy, and had he asked me to sign a petition, I would. However, he did not. He asked me to send a letter.

I will not be associated with any effort organized by Karl.

[Genesis]

On the contrary; site access is all that this is about.

Site access is not limited to Cheryl and Emerald, neither of which I am qualified to dive (today). I have no immediate desire to dive either, as I am quite aware that both are well beyond my comfort level (ignoring any 'formal' requirements)

However, I am qualified to dive, and do dive, JB and Peacock, both of which are on state land. There is also Madison, which I want to dive, and a few other sites, also on state land, which I want to dive.

All publically-owned sites are threatened by less-than-open management policies and procedures, and without these sites, in the aggregate, we would be left with Ginnie and Wayne's World as pretty much the only caves diveable from land in Florida!

There are generally-speaking only two "real" solutions to access problems:

1. Buy the land on which the sink rests. That works for things like Wayne's World, but it doesn't work for a lot of sites, mostly because they either (1) are stupid expensive if privately held, or (2) are owned by the state already. There are exceptions, but they are few, generally speaking. While the state can use eminent domain to "grab" land it wants, private parties do not have that means of acquisition available.

2. Insure that the state manages public land in the public interest via an open, "in the sunshine", objective set of criteria. The eternal vigilance required of all of us to insure this is something that appears to have been recognized by the various agencies, in that the result of this recognition was and is the proposal submitted in February. This recognition deserves our applause and support, and my part of that is footing the bill to make sending these petitions simple, free and painless for those who would prefer an electronic option to ink and stamps.

Now it is up to us to speak as a group in order to insist that open management actually take place, as the actual owners of the resource in question.

That is all that is behind my decision to put up the petition online and foot the bill for those who choose this method of expressing their opinion.

For those who prefer ink or simply don't like me, you can always stop in at CE and sign the paper copy. It'll have the same effect - and that's what's important.

[bigdave]

We're talking ten months without so much as a return phone call, letter, or email.
It is hard to excuse 10 months without a reply of any sort. The Park should have at least acknowledged receipt of the request.

BD

[resolute]

John, the recent track record of the agency folks and some other respected divers has resulted in the reopening of dive sites like Eagle's Nest, Hart and Madison (although that one was a CF, but was finally fixed). Cheryl and Emerald have been until recently under private control, so these places are a relatively new issue. I don't know Johnny or Karl, so I am checking the wording of Karl's petition with an involved agency official I do know and respect before making a decision on signing.


All I can say Al, is that the proposal IS signed by the top agency folks, who ARE our leadership. Nothing is being asked for via the petition and letter writing campaign that they did not put their signatures to already..

If you don't approve of the FOIA, you don't have to... it's the effort of one individual who has the right under the law to do as he sees fit - as has been said before - it is a totally seperate matter from the petition.

JB

[resolute]

Al, your concerns are well founded. Karl has a clear agenda, and site access is not it.

Johnny on the other hand is a stand up guy, and had he asked me to sign a petition, I would. However, he did not. He asked me to send a letter.

I will not be associated with any effort organized by Karl.

I beg to differ with you on this - I spoke to Johnny personally and he EMAILED ME the petition and asked for my help in getting AS MANY SIGNATURES AS POSSIBLE on it..

Whether you personally like someone or not, or agree or see eye to eye with them on every issue is NOT the point here. I cetainly do not see eye-to-eye with Karl on everythng dive related, just like I probably wouldn't with you or anyone else. But this unified issue is FAR TOO IMPORTANT to let silly personality issues between ourselves come into play. Karl deserves our support on his petition efforts in this matter, just as our agency leaders deserve our support, and follow-though on the same issue.

JB

[Widiver_Paul]

Someone on our local discussion board posted this statement from WKPP in response to my pleading to add our names to the petition to protect diving not only in Cherly and Emerald, but in our own backyard:

http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10840



I suppose I could spend the better part of the evening crafting a lengthy response and outlining in detail all the issues but a brief statement will have to do. For the record, I do not speak on behalf of the State of Florida nor do I influence resource management policy on behalf of the WKPP. The State determines the priorities and my take on the current situation is they are more concerned at the moment with increasing nitrate levels at Wakulla Springs and increased dark water days due to poor stormwater management north of the park. Both are having a measurable economic and environmental impact. Species are disappearing from the park and glass bottom boats are not running. While I can appreciate the opinion of the cave diving Florida tax payer I have not seen many at the recent Tallahassee and Wakulla townhall meetings (addressing threats to the springs) nor did I see a big turnout from the cave diving community at the recent Walk for Wakulla Springs. I also believe that given the current research (meters, dye tracing, modeling) and the budgets allocated to this research the State is going to take a long, hard look at anything that could potentially place this research and the long term outlook of the resource at risk. A double fatality in Emerald Sink similar to the Eagle's Nest event this past summer could effectively shut things down and that is a real concern to the State, FSU, DEP, FGS, NWFWMD, etc. Not too long ago the WKPP had to recover an open water diver from Emerald Sink after his buddy decided it was a good idea to trespass on private property and drop 160ft to the bottom in 10ft visibility. This type of accident could have severe consequences today.

For the record, the WKPP is basically neutral on the recreational proposal given the State's current priorities and the fact that the WKPP is non-recreational in nature. The WKPP has specific protocols for operating in these environments and most significantly exceed current agency training not to mention the WKPP maintains STRICT access controls within the project unlike other recreational or guided sites. The WKPP is also focused on facilitating the current research with the hope that actions taken based on the data will clear these systems up and allow the project to continue more than 15 years of work. At some point down the road I suspect they will develop a recreational access policy and allocate the necessary budgets to hire rangers, build parking areas, steps and monitor activity but unless they can get a handle on the current issues impacting the springs I don't believe there will be anything clear enough to dive.

Regards,
Casey McKinlay
Project Director
Woodville Karst Plain Project

and my reply:

Wow is all I can say to that.

These are the words of someone trying to protect the status quo and the interests of a few.

The studies and the darkwater conditions being cited as reasons to make the site off-limits have no merit. Systems such as Cathedral Springs have similar conditions and are open to qualified, experienced divers (Abe Davis 100 safe cave dive recipients) that are well aware of the conditions. Dark Water conditions are experienced seasonally in many systems. Bad viz is a fact of life in Lake Michigan. Should we make it off-limits to divers?

His implication of the danger of deep diving as a reason to make it off limits to divers other than their private interest also holds no merit considering it's his own agency that has overseen and worked hard to modify enhanced and more stringent standards for deep and technical diving. Is he saying that training by GUE is a sham and that it qualifies you for nothing? Lobbying by Jarrod Jablonski to open this system shows that he has confidence in the ability of qualified and experienced divers to safely dive this system. This invocation of possible accidents is meant to produce fear among the ignorant. There have been over 3 fatalities on the Willy. Should we outlaw diving on it??

The research he talks of on the project are studies that can happily coexist with recreational diving (flow meters, dye tracing and modeling) and DO coexist in many systems in Florida and around the world.

The concern about protecting the budgets of State agencies funding the research is a clear attempt to hide behind the apron strings to benefit this small, exclusive private group. He cites Florida State University but I can tell you after speaking to a professor this week at length on this topic that they are just as concerned about opening these sites and prying access away from those who so greedily keep them for their own selfish pride.

The tone of the statement runs along the lines of "trust us and we'll help change things", but this has not been shown the case over the last ten months.

This site has far reaching implications to diving in our own state including Wazee, Lake Michigan and Lake Superior. See this issue for what it is, don't let it negatively affect diving in our own back yard.



Thought i'd share...

[johnnyrichards]

While I can't speak for the other agencies, as a Board member of the NACD I can assure you these efforts have the full support of the NACD. I appreciate the positive response to my initial request and the initiative of others- including Karl and John- in moving this issue forward.

Access to these sites will require substantial effort on many fronts. The status quo has been allowed to exist for so long that it almost seems "the way things should be". It's time for change and change is often a long, sometimes unpleasant process.

With the exception of a few interested parties, this issue has served to help restore some of the sense of "community" cave divers have been lacking for some time.

Thank you all for your assistance and support.

Johnny Richards

[Dwain]

I have received many personal emails from those who don't even use the forum regarding this issue. If we (the cave community), along with individuals that don't hold membership to any particular cave organization do not set a precedence with Emerald and Cheryl. The state will undoubtedly close of other springs in the future. It will come under the heading of Water Source Preservation.

I currently have no reason to have any personal interest in wanting to dive there since I am not qualified.

At some point the state may even decide to allow a company to come in and siphon the water off. This will allow the state to make money off of land. And may even open up sink holes in surrounding areas. As seen with other area of the state. This has happened, whether it is private or state land, the water table does not differentiate.

If the state closes off access to these public lands, I foresee more bottled water. But I could be wrong, but that’s the business/entrepreneur in me. The state has problems collecting enough taxes from other sources to meet the revenue demands of the future. The State of Florida will need additional sources of income to pay for inflationary cost.

So if you haven’t gotten on board to get Emerald and Cheryl open, do it today. Please, don’t wait too see what will happen.

[resolute]

Just proof that some of the people getting all emotional about it, have no idea......


Emotional or stone cold serious, dosen't matter - just sign it! What DOES matter is the issue of access.

JB

[resolute]

Someone on our local discussion board posted this ...{snip}.....and my reply:

Wow is all I can say to that.

These are the words of someone trying to protect the status quo and the interests of a few.
...............................
This site has far reaching implications to diving in our own state including Wazee, Lake Michigan and Lake Superior. See this issue for what it is, don't let it negatively affect diving in our own back yard.



Thought i'd share...

Very well written - thanks- please consider crafting it also into an appropriate letter to Coleen Castille at the Florida DEP, as well as Governor Jeb Bush's office. They need to hear these facts, not just your message board. Also remember to remind the other message board divers to respond to the petitions and write letters. The next site closed for their use to the benefit of one particular private group could be in THEIR backyard next time! Thanks for your efforts.

JB

[Randy]

I have been lurking quietly but have to clear one false item up that Casey and the like are intent on perpetuating. I live in the Tallahassee area and stop by Cheryl/Emerald quite often to check the vis. While Wakulla may be dark(I've not visited in a long while) Cheryl and Emerald are clear enough to dive several times a year. I've seen 50 foot vis there several times in the last year - it only goes dark after heavy local rain. I guess it's their attempt to reduce interest. I could say more...but why be censored.

[Widiver_Paul]

You're right, if you look into the history (http://www.aquanaut.com/bin/mlist/aquanaut/techdiver/subject?wakulla)of the Wakulla project, you'll see discussion of various parts of the aquifer as having seasonal vis. Katherine Irvine bragged about them being their favorite divespot during the winter over the course of several years. You'll also get some insight into the aggregate defensiveness due to "intrusion" by competing projects such as the USDCT. The watchdogs have been sleeping, but they still have teeth.

WKPP has done some great things, I hope they don't look at this as another competing interest. On the contrary, these are supporters, peers, and the taxpayers that elect and pay for the salaries and funding of the managers of the park, the universities that fund their research, and the customers of their corporate partners. This could be win-win or it could be an ugly chapter in the history of cave diving. I urge Casey and WKPP to assist in whatever way possible to make a cooperative effort a reality and perhaps bring more positive relations with the public to WSSP and their project.

[Enzo]

If you lived in Tallahassee and have been to Wakulla and Emerald and Cheryl often, you'll notice that fact that Emerald/Cheryl can be clear while Wakulla is dark. It all depends on where the tanic water is entering the aquifer.

I haven't been cave diving for 8 years and coming back to read this forum out of curiousity of what's going on these days and it's sad to read that Emerald/Cheryl is off limit to people now. That used to be one of FSU ADP's training sites and I wonder if they still have access or is access limited only to WKPP.

Jim, a former WKPP member

[SeaPlusPlus]

I haven't been cave diving for 8 years and coming back to read this forum out of curiousity of what's going on these days and it's sad to read that Emerald/Cheryl is off limit to people now. That used to be one of FSU ADP's training sites and I wonder if they still have access or is access limited only to WKPP.



I'm afraid it's WKPP only. ADP now uses Cherokee sink and Morrison springs.


Wil