Unconscious diver at depth

[caver]

This question does not pertain to an overhead enviorment. But I want to ask it anyway,

What do you do, what have you been taught. Here is the scenerio: You are out in open water, you find a diver unconscious at depth, how do you hold on to them while ascending?

1. You approach them from the back and put your right arm under their right arm pit. This
frees up your left arm to operate either of the inflator hoses.

2. You hold onto them in a Does-Se-Does position, interlocking your arms with his.

3. Any other method, such as holding onto the manifold.

Aso which agency advocates which method?

[jj1987]

Leave them unconscious so they don't fight you!

[caver]

Leave them unconscious so they don't fight you!

This coming from somebody who just joined here? In your other post about the death of Steve Berman, you said you do not want to come across as "tacky" . I am asking a serious question, I would hope for serious responces. I would hope that even you, new to diving, would recieve more help in a time of need than what you suggest as to "leave them unconscious". What would you think if someone had done what you suggested if they found your friend 7 years ago at depth in need?

HEY KID ---

THINK BEFORE YOU RUN YOUR MOUTH --- YOU WILL GET ALONG ALOT BETTER WITH PEOPLE.

[jj1987]

This coming from somebody who just joined here? In your other post about the death of Steve Berman, you said you do not want to come across as "tacky" . I am asking a serious question, I would hope for serious responces. I would hope that even you, new to diving, would recieve more help in a time of need than what you suggest as to "leave them unconscious". What would you think if someone had done what you suggested if they found your friend 7 years ago at depth in need?

HEY KID --- THINK BEFORE YOU RUN YOUR MOUTH --- YOU WILL GET ALONG ALOT BETTER WITH THE CAVE COMMUNITY IN THE YEARS TO COME
I guess my post wasn't as clear as I meant for it to be....you want to get them to the surface. It's much easier to force them to breathe underwater if they're unconscious, and much safer. Many people will try to force them to start breathing again on their own at depth. Bringing back a diver in this case can cause panic and serious risk to BOTH of you.

As for bringing them up, we were taught to do so with your arms around them and under their arms so you can ensure they're breathing out (or force them to exhale) as you ascend to make sure you don't create more of a problem than you already have by bringing back a diver in a panic state (this is taught in lifeguard classes as well I believe, and they're taught to bring people back to surface in a way that ensures if they do "wake up", they can't fight). Also this allows you to keep a hand nearby so that you can ensure their 2nd stage doesn't fall out. Remember an unconscious body still attempts to breathe, so you don't want to have them sucking in water and drowning during your recovery.

You dump your BC, and use theirs ONLY to ascend to the surface. This makes it where you only have one BC to manage, and when they hit the surface, you don't have to keep holding them, you can focus on keeping them upright and not drowning (preferably keeping a mouthpiece in their mouth). Also, if you're using your BC and lose control of the diver, you'll dart to the surface, and "bend" yourself. This various from textbook to textbook, I've seen different one say different things. My logic (and talking to others) supports this method. Ultimately a good argument can be made for using either vest I suppose.

Also make sure that their mask has no water in it, you don't want them sucking in a nose full of it and drowning that way when the air expands in their mask and can force it up their nose.

I'm not sure why you were so anxious to attack me here, but I assure you nothing was sarcastic about my post. Diving is seen as dangerous enough as it is, rest assured I won't be posting on a pubic forum being a smart ass about safety to make the sport we all love look more dangerous than it is already. I've been diving for 8 years, over 500 dives. Not sure that's still "new" to diving. However, I'm not as experienced as a lot on this forum, and I'm more than openly admitting that.

[caver]

I guess my post wasn't as clear as I meant for it to be....you want to get them to the surface. It's much easier to force them to breathe underwater if they're unconscious, and much safer. Many people will try to force them to start breathing again on their own at depth. Bringing back a diver in this case can cause panic and serious risk to BOTH of you.


"It's much easier to force them to breathe underwater" ???

I don't want this thread to get off the original line of thought, but are you suggesting rescue breathing or CPR or freeflowing the reg while it is in their mouth while at depth? What agency teaches what you suggest? Honestly, I have never heard any of such.

[jj1987]

"It's much easier to force them to breathe underwater" ???

I don't want this thread to get off the original line of thought, but are you suggesting rescue breathing or CPR or freeflowing the reg while it is in their mouth while at depth? What agency teaches what you suggest? Honestly, I have never heard any of such.

As in holding the 2nd stage in their mouth. If they panic, they can lose it, and now you've got to fear for your own safety with a basket-case diver who's terrified, and scared for their life (rightfully so!), where as if they're unconscious, you just hold it in their mouth. If they're having a seizure or something of that sort, you WAIT until they're done before the rescue, even if it means letting them go unconscious. Your job is to rescue them. In my opinion it's like if there's a car wreck and the roads are wet. The responding ambulance needs to maintain a safe speed it's self, so that it doesn't become a victim rather than a rescuer. Use that analogy when considering how to recover your victim.

Let me be up front that I've never been in this unfortunate situation, but I can't imagine it ever being a good idea to do CPR underwater......but that's my logical conclusion trying to play situations in my head.....hopefully a cert rescue diver can chip in.

[stairman]

weather the reg is still in their mouth or not makes the difference in your meathod of accent.Take a Rescue Diver course to learn and practice these senarios.

[BgDadddy]

+1 on the rescue diver class.

My PADI rescue diver class was one of the most helpful (and most fun) open water classes I've taken.


Rick

[LCF]

First off, you can't make somebody stay unconscious. It's not like sleeping, where if you're careful you can avoid waking someone up. If someone is truly unconscious, you can move them or even hurt them without getting any response. On the other hand, if someone has for example seized, they may be unresponsive to begin with, and then come out of it, and this is a VERY good prognostic sign, even if it makes them a bit more difficult to manage.

Second, doing CPR underwater is not indicated. It's inefficient and probably ineffective, and it's essentially impossible to ventilate someone using scuba equipment, and without ventilation, CPR is not worth much. One could argue the utility of a precordial thump, but it's rather difficult to get good force underwater, and at least where we dive, you'd be working against a couple of inches of padding on the diver.

An unresponsive diver should have the regulator maintained in their mouth if possible (on the theory that they might wake up and try to breathe) and be carried to the surface in an expeditious but safe manner. The surface is where ventilation and effective compressions can be carried out.

[skip]

Despite the odd nature of this question on a cave diving forum, I'll answer.

first: make sure they are unconscious and not engrossed in something by a gentle shake of the shoulder. then slide your right arm under their right arm pit and cradle the chin and regulator in your right hand, raising up the chin to open the airway. you are behind them with their tank between the two of you (doggy style)! Reach your left hand around their left side and grasp the inflator hose, ready to inflate or deflate as needed. Make sure your bc is deflated for personal negative bouyancy. Inflate their bc just enough to lift them and you, but only if you can not lift them without inflating (make them neutral) and start swimming up. Be prepared to deflate as needed to maintain control of the ascent, using only their bc.

If the reg is not in the mouth when you find them, don't worry about it, don't replace it, just hold the chin up to keep airway open so that any air in the lungs can escape as it expands (preventing lung overexpansion injury). '

on the surface, you inflate their bc, and then your own, and move into the doe-se-doe postion and provide two breaths. this means remove the mask and reg so you can do the emergency breaths. do this as you tow them to shore or boat. Count 4 secs (1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000, 4-1000) and provide two breaths, repeat. As you tow begin stripping BC so when you get to shore or boat they are ready to be hoisted out of gear.

NAUI, Beginning Scuba Diver class. This procedure is taught and practiced in the pool and then practiced at least twice in open water (where silt blacks out viz and is a real challenge for new divers). NAUI rescue goes a bit further, but the above is taught to and practiced by all first-time scuba students.

-skip (NAUI, #45201)