DIY Sidemount Plans

[Dwain]

Ok... I'm looking at going sidemount. I would like to know if any of you have any plans so I can make my own.

EDIT:

This thread came from the sumpdiver forum, and is mostly for sumpdiving. The information is useful for Florida style sidemount, which is why it was copied here.

This thread was started before the Nomad was available, so if you are looking for a sidemount rig, look at the Nomad as well.

[Tegg]

Forest PM sent

You can post it in this "forum"... it's a limited viewership...

pics of my rig: (2 revisions ago - basic idea is still the same)

http://www.deepintentions.com/sidemount

I'd be intrested since everyone else I dive eith on a regular basis uses a particular "off the shelf" one...

:)

[FW]

Here are pictures of mine. I have higher resolution ones available, if anyone is interested.

FWIW, the inflator hose is in the front during a dive :-)

My wings are modified with loops sewn on, to attach the chest straps, so the wings won't "fly" upward during a dive.

http://www.sumpdiver.com/fw/SMTfront.jpg

http://www.sumpdiver.com/fw/SMTrear.jpg

[FW]

I got an e-mail back from Paul Smith. He is going to get some pictures if his harness. He hasn't gone digital yet, so it may be awhile.

Here is his e-mail, if you want to contact him directly.

"Paul Snith" <afn20573@afn.org>

[Oister]

http://www.sumpdiver.com/fw/SMTrear.jpg)

Looks good but what about those Suicide clips on the back. :cry:

[Arnold Mesiser]

http://www.sumpdiver.com/fw/SMTrear.jpg)

Looks good but what about those Suicide clips on the back. :cry:

Most sump divers I know use carabiners.


On a side note.

Has anyone seen the new Warmbac sidemount harness??

The CDG people were mentioning it but the site has no photos.

[Oister]

Most sump divers I know use carabiners.
Not to be smart or start a flame war I just want to know. This could be bad but........
is that from lack of training? I thought everyone knew better. What is the reasoning behind it? When I took my basic cave class anyone who had carabiners had to change over to clips.

[DeWayne]

Most sump divers I know use carabiners.
Not to be smart or start a flame war I just want to know. This could be bad but........
is that from lack of training? I thought everyone knew better. What is the reasoning behind it? When I took my basic cave class anyone who had carabiners had to change over to clips.

It all comes down to personal preferences, and keep in mind that sumps and the spring caves are two entirely different environments. Biners are easier to manipulate to get cylinders on and off, and sumps usually will only have the line that you are laying in them, so the entanglement issue is not the same.

[Arnold Mesiser]

Most sump divers I know use carabiners.
Not to be smart or start a flame war I just want to know. This could be bad but........
is that from lack of training? I thought everyone knew better. What is the reasoning behind it? When I took my basic cave class anyone who had carabiners had to change over to clips.

They use them because they work and they are cavers so they already have a lot on hand.Perhaps it is becuase they are sump diving not spring diving.I just checked the CDG manual I have and carabiners are abundant.

I was taught in my basic Spring/cave diving course to not use the latch type clip that has a swinging clasp "like" a carabiner.I don't remember carabiners being brought up,then again it was long ago and i am anything but current.

I cannot count how many Brits and Europeans I have seen using carabiners.Obviously from Forrests photo,some US sump divers are using carabiners as well.

I should qualify my previous statement though,local to ME sump divers I know use carabiners (even j rods still) I have seen some West Coast Canadian divers using them in Canadian Caver reports but I can't speak for them.

I am the only one that seems to like locking biners though.

I would also like to add that if Forrest Wilson has used a technique or gear and still uses it,I would pretty well guarantee that it is safe and prudent to do so.I am most certain that I would put my life in Forrest's hands regarding kit and techniques (and I am about as far as you can get from being a blind sheep follower)

[Arnold Mesiser]

It all comes down to personal preferences, and keep in mind that sumps and the spring caves are two entirely different environments. Biners are easier to manipulate to get cylinders on and off, and sumps usually will only have the line that you are laying in them, so the entanglement issue is not the same.

Sure!!!say it in a much simpler and clearer way than I did :P

[FW]

Looks good but what about those Suicide clips on the back. :cry:
Non locking clips do have problems, if not used properly. They can come off the line, and they can become a line trap.

If you look at the picture again, you will see that I keep the gates on the inside, so the chances of them becoming a line trap are remote.

Double enders are much harder to get on and off, especially in cold water, wearing gloves. In spite of what your Florida based instrutor might have told you, a lot of cave divers do wear gloves. There are caves inside the Arctic circle, and you wouldn't last long bare handed. We wear helmets too, because we often dive in low visibility. The risk of being knocked un-concious out weights Florida vanity.

Come to TN and dive with us, and you will learn that a lot of stuff FL instructors believe is pure BS.

[Cindy]

[quote=eramosakarst]Most sump divers I know use carabiners.
I would also like to add that if Forrest Wilson has used a technique or gear and still uses it,I would pretty well guarantee that it is safe and prudent to do so.I am most certain that I would put my life in Forrest's hands regarding kit and techniques (and I am about as far as you can get from being a blind sheep follower)

ROTFLMAO! Boy honey have we got some stories for you! We are all still growing, even Forrest. :D

I use carabiners just because they fit my hand better and I can pull a tank off and guide it better. I'll send you my favorite Forrest photo. Cindy :D

[Oister]

You're just messing with me, right? Nobody's ever told anybody which hand to hold a light with, have they? Or am I just super-gullible?

Nice umlaut.

They taught us to hold primary in left hand with canster on right. This might not have been in class. It could have been from an instructor I dive with. We all configure the same way. He taught me like a tech diver from get go. I know sumps are different I'm just trying to keep as much the same as I can.

[Cindy]

I hate to tell you this but most of the time we solo dive in the sump. I butt mount my light and or use helmet mounted one. No one is going to see which hand you are using. :)

Go caving, just hang out for a bit. See if you like it. It's a lot more work than spring diving. See if it's what you want before you worry about gear, or what hand holds the light. If you hate it you can always move to Florida. Cindy :D

[Webmaster]

Looks good but what about those Suicide clips on the back. :cry:
Non locking clips do have problems, if not used properly. They can come off the line, and they can become a line trap.

If you look at the picture again, you will see that I keep the gates on the inside, so the chances of them becoming a line trap are remote.

Double enders are much harder to get on and off, especially in cold water, wearing gloves. In spite of what your Florida based instrutor might have told you, a lot of cave divers do wear gloves. There are caves inside the Arctic circle, and you wouldn't last long bare handed. We wear helmets too, because we often dive in low visibility. The risk of being knocked un-concious out weights Florida vanity.

Come to TN and dive with us, and you will learn that a lot of stuff FL instructors believe is pure BS.

Yeah Cindy! Everybody has their moments huh? ;-) If you look at how it's oriented and where it's located, like Forrest said you would have to get the line past the tank and your body to be able to get it hooked. But, I wouldn't put a non-locking biner or similar clip somewhere it was much more likely to contact the line.

Even if you did manage to get snagged, taking a tank off if need be and just unhooking yourself is much more reasonable in sidemount. And something you should be able to do anyway. I've snagged the line on lots of different pieces and parts, but I've never had a problem with a similar configuration. BTW - the spring loaded buckle on the Suunto compasses is a great trap for very thin line.

I've had several of the sliding gate style clips jam as well. This was in very 'dirty' conditions with a lot of sand, gravel, and mud.

[FW]

FWIW,

I have had more trouble having the gate come open on bolt snaps than caribiners. I have lost 4 spools that were on bolt snaps. Also my dogs manage to get off leash with bolt snaps more often than on "suicide" clips.

I lost two spools in Snail Shell alone, if you happen to find them :-)

[Cindy]

Yeah Cindy! Everybody has their moments huh? ;-) If you look at how it's oriented and where it's located, like Forrest said you would have to get the line past the tank and your body to be able to get it hooked. But, I wouldn't put a non-locking biner or similar clip somewhere it was much more likely to contact the line.

Even if you did manage to get snagged, taking a tank off if need be and just unhooking yourself is much more reasonable in sidemount. And something you should be able to do anyway. I've snagged the line on lots of different pieces and parts, but I've never had a problem with a similar configuration. BTW - the spring loaded buckle on the Suunto compasses is a great trap for very thin line.

I've had several of the sliding gate style clips jam as well. This was in very 'dirty' conditions with a lot of sand, gravel, and mud.
My biners lock! lol...
I never did figure out how to work those slidy things..
I did a dive with Duncan one time and was so jammed into a cave by my suicide clip that he had to unblock the cave by getting me unstuck. I wasn't just line trapped but also when that happened my body got wedged. He noted his disapproval of my gear by cutting every single snap off my gear (while I was still in the cave) and handing them to me with a little pixie smile...or was that a frown? Cindy :D

[mirrocraft]

i was reading though and see sumpers where helmets i have been wanting to get one but dont know what kind of helmet you can use during a dive. i am very very very very new to this and want to do it right im not in to half ----ing things as for sump diving is there a training class for it or is it one of them thing thats as a cave diver you learn to dry cave and put 2 and 2 togeither.

[FW]

i was reading though and see sumpers where helmets i have been wanting to get one but dont know what kind of helmet you can use during a dive. i am very very very very new to this and want to do it right im not in to half ----ing things as for sump diving is there a training class for it or is it one of them thing thats as a cave diver you learn to dry cave and put 2 and 2 togeither.

Most of us use either regular caving helmets, or the older style canoe, or kayak helmets. The new canoe and kayak helmets are foam, and I suspect they won't work as well.

As for classes, just go through Full Cave, then come on a few sump trips with us. You will get to see sumps, and sump divers up close :-)

Some more "dry" caving experience would help too.

[Cindy]

I agree with Forrest. Finish your training and then jump into that going lead. Almost everyone on this forum has a going lead someplace. Forrest has a whole list of them. He waited 20 years to explore some of them. I have about eight of them now.

My cave diving instructor told me his sole purpose in my life was to catch my knowledge up to my natural abilities. His job was to slow me down! Like you, I was ate up with wanting to cave dive. I am still learning and still ate up with it but am learning some patience. If you want to enjoy the sport, survive and be around sump diving in twenty years then you need to listen to Forrest. Stop being worried about helmets and stuff you read on the web. Finish your full cave and go on some sump dives to gain some knowledge. We can guide you on some of this including who the good instructors are. I'm not trying to sound like a know it all but I know where you are and no one wants you dead or hurt.

That said I am exploring a new area in Florida. If you get down this way you can tag along and see what it is we do. Cindy :D

[mirrocraft]

i thank you guys fr the info im not rushing things i am asking to learn as i go i have been cert. intro since 2000 i just havent had the money that and i joined the military so i havent had much time neither lol to get in to my full cave class i lived in fl my entire life and dove many caves down there and hate to say learned real fast to solo because no one wanted to dive with an 18 year old cave diver so i didnt have the experiance to go full cave now im married have 2 kids and really have no money for classes and am a recruiter in ky so time is still an issue im not willing to push my ability. and the reason im wanting a helmet is because my wife has seen them and herd people talking about them and asked me why i dont wear one. im also going to side mount because i got hert in iraq and hert my back so for me to carry my doubles any more is hard so i found my self asking around and have found my self looking to go side mount. i hate to because i have been diving the same gear for the last 6 years i know it in side and out 0 vis with my mask off but with my back i have to learn something new. as for wanting to do sumps ive always liked the idea of dry caves have gone in one but not really far just past the entrince a bit dont remember what one it was but it was when i was in fl. this is also why i came on this forum to learn and lissen to experiances cave and sump divers. and to find someone in my area to dive open water and springs and get in to some sumps. ive already got one reply from a guy telling me good luck on finding someone because most sump divers are solo divers and even if i dove with one they are still looking out for number one i dont dive with people liek that and this is another reason im looking to see what poeple have to say this probley doent belong in this post but it goes with the top 2 replys i under stand where everyone is getting with there replys but dont htink im rushing ive been working on this for a little while and just got on this forum to ask some of the questions i have had so it looks like im rushing

[FW]

It is true that there divers like that, but most of us on this forum like to have someone else around. We usually go through a sump solo, but we wait on the other side for the rest of the group. The buddy system is great, if you can see your buddy. Sumps are usually low visibility, and that makes it hard to help someone.

For the most part, we dive with buddies if the visibility is more than a few feet.

[Cindy]

i thank you guys fr the info im not rushing things i am asking to learn as i go i have been cert. intro since 2000 i just havent had the money that and i joined the military so i havent had much time neither lol to get in to my full cave class i lived in fl my entire life and dove many caves down there and hate to say learned real fast to solo because no one wanted to dive with an 18 year old cave diver so i didnt have the experiance to go full cave now im married have 2 kids and really have no money for classes and am a recruiter in ky so time is still an issue im not willing to push my ability. and the reason im wanting a helmet is because my wife has seen them and herd people talking about them and asked me why i dont wear one. im also going to side mount because i got hert in iraq and hert my back so for me to carry my doubles any more is hard so i found my self asking around and have found my self looking to go side mount. i hate to because i have been diving the same gear for the last 6 years i know it in side and out 0 vis with my mask off but with my back i have to learn something new. as for wanting to do sumps ive always liked the idea of dry caves have gone in one but not really far just past the entrince a bit dont remember what one it was but it was when i was in fl. this is also why i came on this forum to learn and lissen to experiances cave and sump divers. and to find someone in my area to dive open water and springs and get in to some sumps. ive already got one reply from a guy telling me good luck on finding someone because most sump divers are solo divers and even if i dove with one they are still looking out for number one i dont dive with people liek that and this is another reason im looking to see what poeple have to say this probley doent belong in this post but it goes with the top 2 replys i under stand where everyone is getting with there replys but dont htink im rushing ive been working on this for a little while and just got on this forum to ask some of the questions i have had so it looks like im rushing

I understand you are feeling picked on and upset. No one wants that, I am the one who refered you here. But, and it's a big butt! LOL You have to understand that we know how dangerous, task loading, equipment eating, and how co-dependant we are on each other. Real sump diving requires a lot of prep work, thought and training. That you don't have the money to wait, or the money to train, and your gear is old is not a really a good reason to continue down this path. Most sump divers quit while their kids are young, not use them as an excuse to not get training. You may stick with this and become the greatist sump diver in the world and think I'm just a busy body old ***** but I have the personal belief that with the kids, the lack of money and time it would not be a good idea for you to continue. At least go on some trips with the guys before you waste your time and money buying stuff you may not use. Forums like this are places we go and ask for advice. The advice may or may not be usable to you and sometimes it's not what you want to hear. Best of luck to you, Cindy Butler

[Oister]

This would be used with a drysuit. I might add a BC later.

http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=6335&cat=500&page=1

http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=6334&cat=500&page=1

http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=6333&cat=500&page=1

http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=6332&cat=500&page=1

http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=6331&cat=500&page=1

[FW]

Did you make that? It looks pretty good. Try wearing it in the house with tanks. First check to see if you can walk upright ok. Then get on your hands and knees, and see if the tanks hang level.

If all that works, try it it in open water. Take along someone with a camera to get pictures from the sides. You can tell from the pics if you have any trim issues.

Don't get discouraged if you have to remake part of it. I think I tried about 4 times before I came up with something I liked :-)

[Oister]

I cut all the webbing and did the layout then had the sewing done. I have dove this in OW worked pretty good. I riped it apart, added bungies and moved D-rings. looks like the pic I saw of sidemount when I stand up. I'm going to use clips for walking then just bungies in the water. I will try the hands and knees thing. I am useing clips not caribiners.

I also weighted my self neutral with just drysuit then I weighted the AL 80s so they will be neutral when almost empty.

Going to OW this weekend BRRRRRRRrrrrrrr it's 23*F here. Thewater will be 37-39 did I say BBBBBBRRRRrrrrrrr We will have Camera I'll post pics

[Jay]

I might have a Paul Smith harness laying around, if anybody is interested.
I don't know what changes he has made, mine is from 01 I think.

[RescueTechDiver]

I have finished my rig im going to test it tomorrow i take some more pics

http://www.tennesseediveservices.com/pictures/sm1.JPG
http://www.tennesseediveservices.com/pictures/sm2.JPG

[FW]

I have finished my rig im going to test it tomorrow i take some more pics

http://www.tennesseediveservices.com/pictures/sm1.JPG
http://www.tennesseediveservices.com/pictures/sm2.JPG
It looks like it will work. Try crawling around on the floor, and see it the tanks hang level.

Check the Dry Creek thread.

[RescueTechDiver]

I have finished my rig im going to test it tomorrow i take some more pics

http://www.tennesseediveservices.com/pictures/sm1.JPG
http://www.tennesseediveservices.com/pictures/sm2.JPG

it works! http://www.tennesseediveservices.com/pictures/PICT0028.JPG

[rchrds]

Since this got bumped- which caused me to see it (I dont check page 2) Chrissy and I both use carabiners as main tank attachment points (Okay, she learned it from me) but they are not loose- they are solidly fixed to the tank and do not slide, only rotate a few degrees. When attached, the gate is between the tank and body- no way to become a line trap, and in 10 years of doing it this way (crap!) it never has.

I use carabiners because they are super easy for me to clip and unclip on the move in preparation for entering a one or both bottle off restriction when I am in a hurry to get somewhere. Every other type of connection that I have seen on skinny folk requires an attachment point that is very difficult to reach unless you are quite girthy around the middle.

Of course, this is a point for debate, as only a few other folks i know do it that way, but it you want, I'll race you to the back of silver glen and we can see who's tanks come off and on easier. You supply the boat.

The only better system I've seen was Woody's, which consist of two steel rods bent in the middle. No positive retention at all. He can get his tanks off faster than I can. Its like holstering a set of six shooters. Unfortunately, when he gets head down, the tanks slide out some of the time. :)

haha. That is what is so much fun about side mount- so many different ways.

Cindy B- what are you up to lately?

Hey knoxville guy- how long is that underwater cave you got over there? You know we cant count it as the longest underwater cave in TN as it really is a vadose cave that got flooded... :twisted:

[rchrds]

during the test run of my rig i was using cheapo biners and they bent open when i walked with my tanks on.....

o the cave it just over 5000 again i have not been there yet but i have seen video id say at least 100'+ vis with very nice formations.

I have to disagree with Forrest on this one aspect. The odds that you will have to traverse anything with your tanks on are very small. It just isn't a very good idea. The odds of twisting an ankle with all that extra weight or just falling over while traversing some deep mud or rocky inbetween is just too good. Take the tanks off and ferry them. Its a lot easier on you for the long haul- this is part of the reason we sidemount in the first place for sump diving. Where is the wisdom of trying to walk around with both tanks on, when your rig is designed to carry them separately?

Getting out of the water on the far side is scary stuff. If you hurt yourself in dry cave back there things can go rapidly downhill- particularly if you are by yourself. Do things smart, and minimize the possibility of injuring yourself and not being able to swim out.

J

P.S> I suppose I'll have to come out to Kville and see this thing- that's the second or third time i've heard about it. Still debating if it is in the same class as GJ and Blue Springs or not.
hmmm..

[rchrds]

I have finished my rig im going to test it tomorrow i take some more pics

http://www.tennesseediveservices.com/pictures/sm1.JPG
http://www.tennesseediveservices.com/pictures/sm2.JPG

Sorry- just looked at it- lose the cable clamps you are using for the bungee- they will hang the line in a position you will not be able to clear- use one continuous loop of bungee tied with a barrel knot- this will roll and keep from wearing on the ceiling. Route it through the same rings you are using now, with the part crossing your back under your backplate.
To link your new loop of bungee to your front d-ring (which will pull it down and make it VERY difficult to add stage bottles and such) use small maillons instead of boltsnaps. As I said above, the ability to carry the tanks out of the water is not a requirement I believe to be legitimate, but if you think that is necessary, a 2" seatbelt strap can be carried in your drysuit pocket and clipped on to the necks for such an eventuality. That function should not sacrifice in water performance. By using small bolt snaps to connect to your d-rings you are loading up your only chest connection points with items that will feel remarkably similar to everything else that you will want to add and remove from that point- you could possibly detach the wrong thing in a moment of stress. By using the same d-ring to stabilise your tanks, you are causing it to be pulled into your chest, making it difficult to use- I would suggest that you add a smaller d-ring (Dive-Rite makes a nice low-profile stainless ring) that you could stick either in the same d-ring clamp, or another just below it, to free up your chest attachment d-ring for stage bottles. You will also find that the location your have your chest d-ring, while ok for securing your primary tanks is too low for attaching stage bottles, and will cause the neck of the stage bottle to drag in the dirt- it must be on the collar bone or slightly above to hold a "slung-below" stage bottle in the proper space. I cannot speak for carrying bottles above- I do not carry them that way.

You need to invest in a manifold (minus the crossover)- valves pointing the same direction are an accident waiting to happen. Either your handles point the right way, which puts one reg right side up and one down, or your valves are askew, as they are in your picture, which leads to bad muscle memory habits. This is one of those few emergency procedure/muscle memory things that should be learned correctly as soon as possible- keep the regs tucked into the body, and KNOW (without thinking about it) which way the valves go to close them.

Also- I think you're going to find that with your wing mounted so high on your back you will have to continously keep air in the feet of your drysuit to keep your ass out of the dirt. This leads to suit bouyancy problems which seem to be prevalent with a lot of new sidemount students. This is not such an easy fix, and involves "rotating" the rig vertically around the body, so that the shoulder straps are longer, the crotch strap is shorter, and, as a result, your aft tank connections will be shorter as well, moving your tank longitudinal CG closer to your wing long. CG. Then, it wont matter if you have a wetsuit, drysuit or nosuit (the real CG test of any sidemount rig.)
J

[rchrds]

Click on Pictures in the top menu, the upload something. Get the URL of the picture, and paste it into a post. For avatars, click on profile, and pick one, or do a link to your own.

FWIW, I don't advocate walking around beyond sumps with tanks on, I just said his harness should be capable of holding them up :roll:

Ok- I wasn't clear on that, it seemed strange, but I've seen folks thinking that that their harness should be able to comfortable carry tanks over some distance- I never really understood that- perhaps it is a british thing.
Sorry to mis-quote ya!

J

[FW]

Ok- I wasn't clear on that, it seemed strange, but I've seen folks thinking that that their harness should be able to comfortable carry tanks over some distance- I never really understood that- perhaps it is a british thing.
Sorry to mis-quote ya!

J
The Brits have a lot of multi-sump caves, I guess they regularly wear tanks from one sump to the other.

Are y'all grounded today :twisted:

[rchrds]

Okay- back to the real subject of this whole thing (is dwain still watching?) I finally figured out how to post some pics, so I uploaded a couple from the CDS workshop sidmount class I taught a couple of years ago.

http://cavediver.net/photopost/data/515/medium/jason_rig_front.jpg

Okay- in this photo, you can see how high my d rings are, and how low my crotch strap is. This ensures that the bouyancy is centered nearer to my waist than my shoulders (where most of the tank weight will be.) This also keeps everything off my middle and chest area, where it might hang on something. The two d-rings visible on the waist belt are actually the stage bottle attachment rings- in exactly the same place they would be located backmount, meaning I use the same stage rig as backmount. The white strap is a bungee- it keeps the tails of the wing from lifting up and preventing me from getting hung when backing out of something particularly grim. You can see my blocky backup lights, which would really rather be something slim like a scout lights, instead of SL4s. The neck loop is someone else's, and is much too large. This is also critical for my second stage retention. Notice under my left armpit, you can see my bungee wrapping around and attaching with a small maillon (hidden by the worthless plastic buckle.) to the lower d ring. All my "stay on the harness" items like the bungee and the backup lights attach to this lower d-ring, which is integral on the Transpac, but could be added as a spare on any other harness. THe upper d-ring is clear of any junk that will prevent swimming stage bottle transitions. The inflator hose is just long enough to reach my mouth, no longer.

http://cavediver.net/photopost/data/515/medium/jason_rig_side.jpg

Okay- in this photo from the rear, you can see the tank attachment plate- this one from diverite. Again, notice how low the wing is. This is critical for proper longitudinal CG. You can see how the belt holding the majority of the tank weight is generally over the center of the wing. Also visible is the white belt that keeps the tails under control. The bungee is barely visible here, as it is all the same color, but you can see it running under my arm, and through the top two loops of the transpac. Notice how close the stage bottle ring is to the primary tank attachment point. This is critical to keeping the stage bottle from hanging in the breeze. You can loop it up in the handle all you want, but you still have to get rid of the length of the clip- that is done by keeping the attachment point above the centerline of the body. The inflator takes some damage, but only at the plastic elbow- you should not have anything other than a straight elbow- all of the rest fall apart. (no pull dumps.) Same goes for the aft dump on the wing. Block it off. If you have to dump from there, it's a sign of poor technique.

What is not really visible is the light, which I ass mount. This also brings a lot of argument, but mine has proven to be once I have to really take the light off to get into something, two small clips near the ass are much easier to unclip than trying to slide something off the belt, and all the drama that entails. Easy when backmount, not easy when sidemount. (not to mention you might not have the vertical room to reach underneath and unclip your belt.) The one and only downside to assmounted cannisters is that I have, on occasion, manage to unlatch my cannister, while removing gear at the surface. Partially that is a fault of my manufacturing the cannisters so that the clips are not that tight- but that is easily remedied with a bit of bicycle innertube.

[chimie007]

This thread is as good as a thread can ever get :)

I just got access to the forum. Just got myself an older style DR SM rig from a Texan. After looking at all the pics here, I'm likely to change a few things. But first things first, gonna head to Lake Lanier this weekend to give it a try the way it is.

[FW]

I just got access to the forum. Just got myself an older style DR SM rig from a Texan. After looking at all the pics here, I'm likely to change a few things. But first things first, gonna head to Lake Lanier this weekend to give it a try the way it is.
Is it a Transpac 1 or 2? Either can be made to work, but the 2 is less bulky.

[chimie007]

I just got access to the forum. Just got myself an older style DR SM rig from a Texan. After looking at all the pics here, I'm likely to change a few things. But first things first, gonna head to Lake Lanier this weekend to give it a try the way it is.
Is it a Transpac 1 or 2? Either can be made to work, but the 2 is less bulky.

It's Transpac II with a rec wing. The wing is threaded under part of the harness at the shoulders. The wing is outside the waist strap but it's got bungee to clip the lower part of the wing forward over the belly. Doesn't look like it would flap much.

As for the tanks attachment points. Top ones are big bungee loops that are sewed onto a webbing that is threaded to the the back of the harness. It's on piece that makes up both sides and they are linked to the shoulder D-rings. Bottom attachment are shoulder straps based plates with "tea cups hoops" on them. Metal thing that sticks down 2in or so from the plates and then curves out and looks like a cup holder. The cam bands have carabiners set up exactly as in rchrds pics.

They guy that had it was smaller than me so I think I will have to lengthen the shoulder straps to bring the whole rig (wing/plates) down. Thinking of replacing them with webbing. A guy did that on TDS. Waiting for some pics to see how it looks.

Welcome any comments bad or good about the rig. I got it for dirt dirt cheap. I don't mind buying a few things to improve it if needed.

[FW]

If you can, get someone to look at you in the water, or better yet, shoot a picture. One of the problems with the early sidemount rigs was the wings flapping around like a Manta Ray. It is pretty easy to fix. Just get some loops sewn onto the wing, so you can run straps across your chest and stomach to hold the wing around you like a jacket.

[chimie007]

If you can, get someone to look at you in the water, or better yet, shoot a picture. One of the problems with the early sidemount rigs was the wings flapping around like a Manta Ray. It is pretty easy to fix. Just get some loops sewn onto the wing, so you can run straps across your chest and stomach to hold the wing around you like a jacket.

Thanks for the tip. I will once I get it down to cave country.

I'm quite sure the bottom part won't. Each side has got a bungee loop in the sewed tab (Rec wing so it has the factory tab on the side). The tab is quite long (2-3in or so) and has a plastic tube in it where the loop goes through. Both bungee loop clip together over my belly/waist. It really holds the bottom part of the wing like a jacket. I need the check the chest area. Right now the bungees that hold the tank necks are going under the wing but I'm considering doing like the Nomad and go over the wing. Perhaps as a long continuous bungee as mentionned earlier in this thread.

Maybe I'll take some pic of the gear tonight and post. Might be easier than trying to explain all that.

[chimie007]

Here are some pics above water. Comments welcome. I think I need longer shoulder straps to bring the whole thing down. This is to the max with just a shirt on.

Bungee that keep wings forward and lower attachment

http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7036&cat=500&page=1

Wing bungee again
http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7040&cat=500&page=1

Upper tank attachment
http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7039&cat=500&page=1

AL80 attached

http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7037&cat=500&page=1
http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7038&cat=500&page=1

[FW]

Here are some pics above water. Comments welcome. I think I need longer shoulder straps to bring the whole thing down. This is to the max with just a shirt on.

That is the model just before the Nomad, it can be made to work well. You got a good deal there.

Depending on your wet/dry suit, you may need to add some weight to the 80s. That is what I use when diving in resort areas, like Mexico. I usually put 2 or 4 lb weights on each camband (depending on how deep the dive is).

[mwenner]

Okay- back to the real subject of this whole thing (is dwain still watching?) I finally figured out how to post some pics, so I uploaded a couple from the CDS workshop sidmount class I taught a couple of years ago.]

JR

Thanks for this post, as it's better than most, and well explained. I've been trying various mods to my Dragon harness for a couple years now, implementing a 60lb single wing, and a few Transpac components, and running my 2" webbing over the wing as you have in your attached pictures. Your wing position is lower, which makes ton's of sense, but.... I'm have problems with staying afloat with the stage dives that are 5 tank dives. 2 side mount 72's, 2 - 80's for travel, and a 40 for deco. (obviously deep dive) Maybe I've asked too much from my wing, or had it too high on my back, which would keep the upper part of the wing from inflating? I went nose down with TJ in PIII, and wouldn't use that harness for that again, without changing something. Ended up attaching my travel gas upper tank clips to my lower D rings and dragging them in to get my CG right. Compare your tank size, and comments?

[chimie007]

That is the model just before the Nomad, it can be made to work well. You got a good deal there.


I went out last weekend. DS and AL80s. Made myself neutral without tanks and added 4# on each tanks.

Got it to work but the shoulder straps were too short. I'm replacing that with webbing. Still trim was surprisingly good but I had to add quite a bit of air to my DS feet for it to work. Not practical.

The attachments (tea cup) I have are very badly located and hard to work with since the carabiners are fixed (non movable) on the cam straps. At first, the tanks hanged low but when I moved the tea cup more to my back (so the tanks would hang on my side) I couldn't get the tank to clip on. I decided to order a DR butt plate and install some big big bolt snaps on the cam band. It seems like that setup (newer style DR butt plate + bolt snaps) is working well for a lot of guys. I got the rig for cheap, might as well put some $$$ in it to make it work well instead of fighting it.

I have also moved the upper bungee outside the wing. It should help control the top part of the wing. As for the bottom I will attach it to the waist strap. A few changes worth doing I think. In the end, it will pretty close to a Nomad.

[FW]

Made myself neutral without tanks and added 4# on each tanks.
Did you put on a weight belt? If so, that may have caused you to be tail heavy. Once you make yourself neutral with no tanks. put that amount of weight on the tanks, not yourself. You can move the weights on the tanks to adjust your trim.

[chimie007]

Made myself neutral without tanks and added 4# on each tanks.
Did you put on a weight belt? If so, that may have caused you to be tail heavy. Once you make yourself neutral with no tanks. put that amount of weight on the tanks, not yourself. You can move the weights on the tanks to adjust your trim.

Kind of. In two small pocket but they were on my waist. Good idea to put all the weights on the tanks. I did move the 4# forward on the tanks after the first try and that's when I trimmed better. I will try to go back to Lanier next weekend once I have butt plate and new webbing. I also need to spend more time on hose configuration.

I'm heading to the NACD conf later this month. I'm supposed to be diving backmount with some buddies but I'll see if I can skip a dive and rent some single steels to play in OW at Ginnie. (all my steels are doubled for now that's why I'm using my stages).

[rchrds]

I'm have problems with staying afloat with the stage dives that are 5 tank dives. 2 side mount 72's, 2 - 80's for travel, and a 40 for deco. (obviously deep dive) Maybe I've asked too much from my wing, or had it too high on my back, which would keep the upper part of the wing from inflating? I went nose down with TJ in PIII, and wouldn't use that harness for that again, without changing something. Ended up attaching my travel gas upper tank clips to my lower D rings and dragging them in to get my CG right. Compare your tank size, and comments?

This is an extremely common problem, both C and I have experienced the same thing (she still fights with it on occasion.) Part of the problem is that you are trying to make all this work with 72s. The whole issue with stability is similar to that of a jumbo jet. The heavier you are, the more stable you are. The more weight that you have in tanks, the less small changes in bouyancy will make- particularly if you dive wet, where the compression of the suit can make a huge difference in the fore/aft bouyancy, becuase of loss of lift in the legs, which are so far from the center of gravity. A better question might be why are you trying to sidemount a double stage dive with 72's as your primaries? Or are your stages 72s (much, much worse.) If you want to do real dives sidemount, quit risking at all with a poor choice of primary tanks (particularly in P3 where you dont neet tiny tanks for any particular reason) when a good set of 104s or 120s would have offset the need for at least one, and possibly both of your stages. (figure in easier swimming due to less drag!) I know the argument- oh, but my 104s are doubled up! Time to make the committment. Pick and choose. It becomes very difficult to remain highly proficient in both systems unless you are diving almost daily, and switching every day.

Anyway, rant off, the problem is your tiny tankage. because the tanks are so light, and you are so close to neutral bouyancy, the true bouyancy of the 80s (nose heavy) is making itself known. If you insist on staying with the 72s, add a 5 pounder to each one, and load your wing a bit more- this may start to offset the nose weight of the 80s. The better answer is to switch to larger tanks, and the nose weight of two 80s will disappear, the heavier the tanks (i.e. PST 104s, or 120s) the less the effects will be noticed.

Of course, with the increase (significant) in weight, you will realize that if you are diving wet, you will not be able to continue to do so. I know very few people who can dive wet sidemount and still have enough lift to carry a heavy set of doubles and stages. The drysuit becomes an integral part of your lift equation. The downside to pulling the wingtips in and reducing the overall volume of the wing in an attempt to be vertically small, is that there is an inherent loss of lift, regardless of the size of the wing. In addition, adding air to the drysuit has a double benefit- it is much more streamlined, due to the size of the space the air is distribute in, and is much easier to swim than a huge inflated wing. This is mostly noticeable in a significant increase in speed while scootering, but can be noticed while swimming as well.

As a side note, I on occasion, have problems with two stages and an oxygen bottle when the primary bottles have a high percentage of helium. My 120s become very tail light at the end of the dive, and I experience the same nose heavy condition that you are suffering from. I have been experimenting with strips of sheet lead wrapped around the tanks under a piece of innertube. This has worked semi-successfully, it is very difficult to find the balance between excessive weight early in the dive and enough weight at the end of the dive with high helium mixes.

Jason

[mwenner]

As a side note, I on occasion, have problems with two stages and an oxygen bottle when the primary bottles have a high percentage of helium.
Jason

Thanks Jason, as I do understand your reply. My 95's that day were full of nitrox, as TJ wanted me to make one of my trimix dives, and the 72's were empty and available for the bank of helium. I was diving dry, not wet, but didn't want to go there for the lift I needed at the start of the dive. You're very right about having not used that configuration before, and then dealing with having not. There's certainly a learning curve. I was more surprised by the 65 lb wing not being able to handle what I was carrying, and wondered if your lower wing position would allow the wing to expand more than mine didn't, with my upper wing held down by my shoulder straps, similar to Forrest's SM harness. All in all, it may take a few more dives with stages, SM to get a feel for the limit's of a particular rig. Good advice, either way!

[chimie007]

I made some changes since last time I posted pics. Looks close to a Nomad.... well at least it feels better to me. Going out this weekend to try the changes. Comments/suggestions always welcome.

Shows the whole rig from up front. Shoulder straps removed and replaced with webbing.
http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7083&cat=500&page=1

Shows the wing attached to the waist strap with a belt slide and bungee. This keeps the wing forward and along my body without using a bungee belly clip. This belt slide is where a waist D-ring would be. Currently, the left side belt slide as a D-ring. I might also put one on the right one since there is no issue with deploying long hose/etc.
http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7086&cat=500&page=1

Shows the shoulder strap coming down and connecting to the waist strap with a belt slide. It's one continuous piece doing both straps. I did that to get rid of the shoulder straps that were too short. Plus this gives me more freedom to adjust the rings.
http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7084&cat=500&page=1

Shows the DR butt plate bolted to the harness. Wing comes over part of the handles.
http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7082&cat=500&page=1

Shows the upper attachment that came with the rig looking from the back. It's comes over the wing so it keeps the forward part of the wing down since there is weight on these from the tanks.
http://cavediver.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=7085&cat=500&page=1

[rchrds]

Looks OK on the surface, will have to see it all in the water.

J

[FW]

Chimie,

One thing you can try on dry land, crawl around on the floor, and be sure your tanks are level, and don't hang below your body too much. Rchrds is right, the best way to tell is in the water, but that could save you a trip.

One suggestion, attach the loop on the wing to the tank hanger "handles" on the butt plate. It will help lift the tanks, and keep the bottom of the wing from flapping around. You can try cable ties, and if they aren't strong enough, I have a link somewhere to stainless steel cable ties. Not cheap, but you only need two.

[chimie007]

Chimie,

One thing you can try on dry land, crawl around on the floor, and be sure your tanks are level, and don't hang below your body too much. Rchrds is right, the best way to tell is in the water, but that could save you a trip.

One suggestion, attach the loop on the wing to the tank hanger "handles" on the butt plate. It will help lift the tanks, and keep the bottom of the wing from flapping around. You can try cable ties, and if they aren't strong enough, I have a link somewhere to stainless steel cable ties. Not cheap, but you only need two.

I will try the crawl trick. From the look of it, they might be butt high/beck low. The attachment point on the tank is short. But that's all talk since things will change in the water.

I was thinking about attaching the bottom of the wing down to the butt plate. I really need someone to look at it while I'm in the water to see how it looks but I think the bottom part will tend to go up. Might as well tie it down. There are already tabs on the wing and holes/handles on the butt plate so that's pretty straight forward.

thanks for the tips. I'll let you know how it goes this weekend.

[chimie007]

Little update.

I was supposed to work this weekend but things slowed down at work on Friday so I hit the road early on Sat to make an afternoon dive at Ginnie. Corey (from Salvo) was nice enough to bring his SM gear, volunteer to give me some advice and dive with me. This is what makes this community a great one.

I SM two 104s. (I decided to go for 104s because that's what I have doubled currently and I wanted to see if they could work in the future). I was feet down at first but I moved the bands down and trim was pretty good. Corey said that the wing looked good. We did about one hour dive at Ginnie. Some big passage and the lip bypass on our exit. Nothing to tight for my first SM cave dive.

I changed a few things after the first dive including tightening the front bungee so the tanks would sit by my rib cage. They were too low at first. Otherwise, tank position and trim feels awesome. I dove Cow and Ginnie again before I headed home on Sunday. I can't believe how fast I could this rig to feel as, if not, more comfortable than my doubles. Just amazing. A bit more difficult to clip an O2 bottle and access pockets but not that bad.

Still have a few issues with the hoses config. That's the only thing that I feel needs work at this point. I don't think there is anything to change on the harness itself. :)

[rchrds]

Little update.

I was supposed to work this weekend but things slowed down at work on Friday so I hit the road early on Sat to make an afternoon dive at Ginnie. Corey (from Salvo) was nice enough to bring his SM gear, volunteer to give me some advice and dive with me. This is what makes this community a great one.

I SM two 104s. (I decided to go for 104s because that's what I have doubled currently and I wanted to see if they could work in the future). I was feet down at first but I moved the bands down and trim was pretty good. Corey said that the wing looked good. We did about one hour dive at Ginnie. Some big passage and the lip bypass on our exit. Nothing to tight for my first SM cave dive.

I changed a few things after the first dive including tightening the front bungee so the tanks would sit by my rib cage. They were too low at first. Otherwise, tank position and trim feels awesome. I dove Cow and Ginnie again before I headed home on Sunday. I can't believe how fast I could this rig to feel as, if not, more comfortable than my doubles. Just amazing. A bit more difficult to clip an O2 bottle and access pockets but not that bad.

Still have a few issues with the hoses config. That's the only thing that I feel needs work at this point. I don't think there is anything to change on the harness itself. :)

Yea! thats how it works.

[skip]

Jason wrote that the rear dump should be blocked off. the quote: "Same goes for the aft dump on the wing. Block it off. If you have to dump from there, it's a sign of poor technique."

I'm curious as to what is the proper technique for dumping air from the bc using only the shoulder dump - I don't see how to do it without going head up feet down. I can see with the short hose and high position (in your picture) of the inflator, that you don't really have to raise it up over your head (it's high enough already), but surely you must at least have to raise the upper body above horizontal...and thus feet down?

I've been working on a paul smith type harness and wing assembly and just can't seem to dump air without using the rear dump (or getting vertical) so the question is quite practical.

It's probably something obvious, as these things usually are in hindsight; please enlighten me!

thanks,

-skip

[FW]

Jason wrote that the rear dump should be blocked off. the quote: "Same goes for the aft dump on the wing. Block it off. If you have to dump from there, it's a sign of poor technique."

I'm curious as to what is the proper technique for dumping air from the bc using only the shoulder dump - I don't see how to do it without going head up feet down. I can see with the short hose and high position (in your picture) of the inflator, that you don't really have to raise it up over your head (it's high enough already), but surely you must at least have to raise the upper body above horizontal...and thus feet down?

I've been working on a paul smith type harness and wing assembly and just can't seem to dump air without using the rear dump (or getting vertical) so the question is quite practical.

It's probably something obvious, as these things usually are in hindsight; please enlighten me!

thanks,

-skip
I still have a rear dump valve, but I have never used it. It is much easier to dump from the (shoulder) hose in sidemount, than backmount. The only reason I never blocked mine is in case I am head down in a deep hole, and have to back out, but it has never happened.

[Line Squirrel]

The only reason I never blocked mine is in case I am head down in a deep hole, and have to back out, but it has never happened.

Agreed! And I've had to use it for this exact scenario. I don't see a good reason to block it off. 99% of the time I use the dump in the shoulder.

[skip]

I've completed the homemade sidemount harness and bc and have been diving with it. Works pretty good. I also have experienced the usefulness of the shoulder dump, and the "technique" that I think jason was referring to. I do have to raise my left shoulder a bit, but mostly it involves turning the left side up (right side down) and the gas goes out. This was a real problem for me with other sidemount bc's, especially the armadillo. they all seem to release some air, but never enough without some real contortions. I am a small guy and the others were too big so maybe that was it. this homemade harness/bc is a bit of jason's pictures/description, a bit of FW, and a bit of Paul Smith. And it's custom fit!

-skip

[skdvr]

I am thinking about building myself a sidemount rig, but for OW stuff and not for cave (not cave trained yet). This thread has been an interesting read, but it is faily old and most of the links for the pics do not work. I have a few SS BP's and was thinking about building off of this, again NO cave so NO tight restrictions, so I really do not need to hear about getting wedged into anything. OR if you have a DIY for softpac that is cool to. It is just something that I would like to use off my boat in the summer time. The ladder that I have is not the best for heaving my double HP120's up, so side mount would be a great alternative. A freind of mine has just started sidemount and it has really intrigued me...

Thanks
Phil

[skip]

Oxycheq makes a soft plate that looks interesting. Allows running a single continuous 2" webbing harness, like a hard plate, and has a place for a crotch strap. About $50.00 if I remember right. The nice thing is that it means no sewing up your own harness, and from the literature, you can easily add a cam band if you decide to use a single tank. Not sure how to add the bungee's, but I'm sure you could figure that out.

http://www.oxycheq.com/Oxycheq/Wings-BackPlates.html

-skip

[Howard]

Cindy B- what are you up to lately?

Hey knoxville guy- how long is that underwater cave you got over there? You know we cant count it as the longest underwater cave in TN as it really is a vadose cave that got flooded... :twisted:


I just now saw your question from a few years ago, the cave you are talking about has over 5600' of lined and mostly surveyed passage. All of it underwater except for the end "bittersweet room" which is a 40' high room shaped like a silo. Oh it is definitely vadaose, as it was dry until TVA put a lake in over it.

[skdvr]

Oxycheq makes a soft plate that looks interesting. Allows running a single continuous 2" webbing harness, like a hard plate, and has a place for a crotch strap. About $50.00 if I remember right. The nice thing is that it means no sewing up your own harness, and from the literature, you can easily add a cam band if you decide to use a single tank. Not sure how to add the bungee's, but I'm sure you could figure that out.

http://www.oxycheq.com/Oxycheq/Wings-BackPlates.html

-skip

Would you need to add a buttplate to that? If you do not use a buttplate what do you attach the rear clip of the tank to? I was thinking about buying the Golem Gear buttplate and bungee straps and just adding that to my current BP/W.

Thanks
Phil

[FW]

Since you already have backplates, and will be in open water, that may be a good solution for you. At the least, it would be a cheap thing to try.


I am thinking about building myself a sidemount rig, but for OW stuff and not for cave (not cave trained yet). This thread has been an interesting read, but it is faily old and most of the links for the pics do not work. I have a few SS BP's and was thinking about building off of this, again NO cave so NO tight restrictions, so I really do not need to hear about getting wedged into anything. OR if you have a DIY for softpac that is cool to. It is just something that I would like to use off my boat in the summer time. The ladder that I have is not the best for heaving my double HP120's up, so side mount would be a great alternative. A freind of mine has just started sidemount and it has really intrigued me...

Thanks
Phil

[skdvr]

would there be any reason that a DR buttplate would not work? IowaCaveDiver is selling one right now, but he was not sure if it would sit low enough off a SS BP. I know that Golem Gear markets theirs for being able to mount to a BP for CCR, so I did not know if there was a size difference between the two or not. This particular buttplate that is for sale is an older model (I guess) because it has two d-rings on each side, instead of the bar that is on the newer ones...

Any Thoughts...

Phil

[FW]

It should work. I saw a setup like that this weekend.

would there be any reason that a DR buttplate would not work? IowaCaveDiver is selling one right now, but he was not sure if it would sit low enough off a SS BP. I know that Golem Gear markets theirs for being able to mount to a BP for CCR, so I did not know if there was a size difference between the two or not. This particular buttplate that is for sale is an older model (I guess) because it has two d-rings on each side, instead of the bar that is on the newer ones...

Any Thoughts...

Phil

[skdvr]

It should work. I saw a setup like that this weekend.

Thanks, I just bought it...

Hopefully I will be able to get something to work out of it...

Phil

[Aktun]

Ok... I'm looking at going sidemount. I would like to know if any of you have any plans so I can make my own.
.
I have not done a single SM dive, however I am configuring my TP, the main feature is I am not using a wings, instead I am using the bladder of an aqualung kids size BC attached on the inside of TP, for Aluminum tanks hope the lift is enough.I can take pics....The davidian conf.:D