Gear set up

[EGIB]

Hey all, I'm a sidemount newbie...not a sidemounter, just someone wearing tanks under their armpits at this point :D

I would like to hear some opinions on diving solo with sidemount tanks. This has probably been brought up before, but I would like to hear input from different people. I've had this conversation with many over the past few days (in real life, not on the internet). I've heard an H valve is the way to go. Also, when wearing a long hose, keeping that away under a band on the side of the tank.

[Mike Edmonston]

Hey all, I'm a sidemount newbie...not a sidemounter, just someone wearing tanks under their armpits at this point :D

I would like to hear some opinions on diving solo with sidemount tanks. This has probably been brought up before, but I would like to hear input from different people. I've had this conversation with many over the past few days (in real life, not on the internet). I've heard an H valve is the way to go. Also, when wearing a long hose, keeping that away under a band on the side of the tank.

Hi Elisha,

are you "solo diving" or are you the"solo" sidemounter in a BM team?

If you are solo diving, you do not need an H valve, nor do you need a 7' hose. That is only a convenience for BM buddies.

If you are diving in a team, then a 7' hose should be fine. You really don't need an h-valve, because you can always donate the long hose, and use your other reg.

There are a zillion different configurations, and you'll get just as many answers.

Good luck, and have fun.

[chimie007]

I'm also a newbie at this SM thing. Well it's only been a few months 20 sidemount dives or so. I talked to a lot of people and did quite a bit of research when I got my rig together.

As Brian K. said on a different thread, the beauty of SM is that there isn't anything standard out there. People have come out with different options tailored to their diving.

My 2 cents... I dive with a 7' hose on my right tank (bungied) because I still do most of my diving with backmount folks. Both regulators are clipped with bungied so they can be yanked away if needed (been tested unannounced with success). I tell backmount people to take any reg they need. If it's the short hose then we will swap for the 7' once things under control and exit that way.

I have done a few solo dives. I don't use an H-valve and don't see the need for it. If I have a reg that craps out, I turn off the valve and exit on other tank. That's my plan A and if I did things by the book (rule of 1/3) that's all I need to do.

If I think I need more gas, Plan B is to feather the valve (done it during deco when I had an SPG fail on my O2 bottle). It's not easy but very doable.

If I absolutely need a working reg on the other tank, I can swap reg. Plan C. I can hold my breath while doing it and using the air in my wing as backup if needed. A few breaths in/out of a wing won't be a problem and will give me enough time to swap reg.

[EGIB]

Thanks for the replies...

The reason I bring up the solo thing is because on my second solo dive ever I lost the use of my left tank. Boy I was in a bad state of mind the whole way out. It happened when I was 100 psi from thirds. I did not like the feeling of "what if something happens to the other reg/tank?" While people say that this sort of double failure is unlikely, the chances were just too high for me. I think diving solo without another option is unacceptable risk for me personally. Sure I had plenty of air in the available tank, but I had a real uneasy feeling the entire exit. The end result is I used half the air on the way out as I did on the way in (yay Ginnie flow) even with my heightened anxiety and busting of ass on the exit.

[Mike Edmonston]

Thanks for the replies...

The reason I bring up the solo thing is because on my second solo dive ever I lost the use of my left tank.

Did the tank O-ring extrude out? Would you have been able to feather your left valve? or did the valve actually fail?

Nice thing about sidemount is that you have alot of choices / options if something craps out. Having everything in front of you is truly a blessing if you have to Isolate in a hurry. No more guessing.

Safe Diving

[JimC]

Thanks for the replies...

The reason I bring up the solo thing is because on my second solo dive ever I lost the use of my left tank. Boy I was in a bad state of mind the whole way out. It happened when I was 100 psi from thirds. I did not like the feeling of "what if something happens to the other reg/tank?" While people say that this sort of double failure is unlikely, the chances were just too high for me. I think diving solo without another option is unacceptable risk for me personally. Sure I had plenty of air in the available tank, but I had a real uneasy feeling the entire exit. The end result is I used half the air on the way out as I did on the way in (yay Ginnie flow) even with my heightened anxiety and busting of ass on the exit.

I don't think that event is any worse than a backmount team of two or three having to share gas. Ether way, the next failure gets you and there isn't much you can do about it other than carry an impractical amount of gas or adding divers to the team. I dive solo with a pair of shore hoses and no h-valves my self. I feel on sidemount the actually cases where I loose a tank completely are almost nill - so many options.

[chimie007]

Thanks for the replies...

The reason I bring up the solo thing is because on my second solo dive ever I lost the use of my left tank.



2nd solo... wow. What happened ? Burst disk or just a reg failure ? Feathering an option ?



Boy I was in a bad state of mind the whole way out. ....... but I had a real uneasy feeling the entire exit.

That's an expected and normal reaction. No one would feel good about something like that.

[OFG-1]

Thanks for the replies...

The reason I bring up the solo thing is because on my second solo dive ever I lost the use of my left tank. Boy I was in a bad state of mind the whole way out. It happened when I was 100 psi from thirds. I did not like the feeling of "what if something happens to the other reg/tank?" While people say that this sort of double failure is unlikely, the chances were just too high for me. I think diving solo without another option is unacceptable risk for me personally. Sure I had plenty of air in the available tank, but I had a real uneasy feeling the entire exit. The end result is I used half the air on the way out as I did on the way in (yay Ginnie flow) even with my heightened anxiety and busting of ass on the exit.


OK, I guess my first question is how did you loose the use of your left tank? Did you pop a disk, or did the regulator totally stop functioning? (Which is really unusual)

Free Flowing is not the loss of use of a tank.

If you are really worried, carry a stage. You can breathe it dry , take the reg off and put it on the tank with the failed reg, and dump the stage if you have to.

[EGIB]

Oooh, I started a hot thread, lol.

Ok...I guess now I have to tell the (slightly embarrassing) reason why I had to shut off a tank. I had bubbles coming from my inflator. When I disconnected the LP hose, a good amount of bubbles turned into A LOT of bubbles. I immediately shut down the tank and started my exit. (I was at the spot where the Beetle tunnel meets the Hill 400 line, 100 psi from thirds). The main thing I would change if I could go back in time would be to carefully inspect my LP hose. I didn't do this because I got a little freaked out. I mainly was focused on keeping my breathing under control and calmly but quickly exiting the cave. What happened was the metal piece on the inflator that connects to the LP hose came out and was still stuck in the hose, thus the increased bubbles. I'm not sure why there were bubbles coming from the inflator in the first place because the O-ring was brand new.

If something had happened to my other tank/reg, I would have absolutely been able to feather the valve and exit. And like I said, if I had just stopped to look at the hose, I probably could have gotten the metal piece out and I would have had unrestricted access to the tank I shut off.

This incident was not life threatening, but it really got me thinking about the "What ifs?" The fact that any incident at all happened so early in my solo career just made me evaluate what I was really doing...it also concerned me that this problem happened just before my turning point in the dive...I was as far back in the cave as I planned on going! Geez.

At any rate, I am going to try out an H valve and see how I like it. I'm also going to try to write down all the bad little things that could happen on a solo sidemount dive and write down the solutions, just to try and get the correct actions I should take clear in my head.


I don't think that event is any worse than a backmount team of two or three having to share gas. Ether way, the next failure gets you and there isn't much you can do about it other than carry an impractical amount of gas or adding divers to the team. I dive solo with a pair of shore hoses and no h-valves my self. I feel on sidemount the actually cases where I loose a tank completely are almost nill - so many options.

The next failure gets you! Good quote...I have been thinking about these types of scenarios a lot lately...I'm glad I haven't been in a real out of air situation in a team yet, because knowing me I'd be bringing two AL 80s with me on every dive no matter what! :D

[SLIM]

From what you had said about yoru problem, I don't see how a H-Vavle would have helped out. Sounds easy but just pop the inlet outof the LP hose and the leaking would have stopped. Sounds like it was not screewd in all the way or the threads were stripped out from over tightening.

Remember SM is aleady a redundant system. The addition of a H-valve and another first and second stage on it is cluttering the system up and will be of greater problems then being able to fix a problem underwater and it be a nuseace then a problem.

SLIM

[chimie007]

Kudos for posting.

Sounds like the type of event that leads to constructive thinking like you (we) are doing right now. Once in a while it's good to have a few real problems as opposed to unreal drills.

Taking a few breaths to analyze the problem is often a good thing to do. Easier said than done.

[Serota]

Do those of you who dive Solo SM typically go to 1/3s on both tanks before turning or something more conservative. I know this varies by site and conditions, but in general is what I am asking.

[cavediver256]

Typically I use the thirds rule...but like you said, there are situations that may require a little more conservatism.

[Slüdge]

The next failure gets you! Good quote...

You know, in just under 900 dives I've never been involved in an air-sharing situation, and I've never witnessed one. Still, I get freaked out over the reality that, should you be in one in a cave, you're one failure away from death.

I am ALWAYS in solo-configuration (true redundancy) when diving with a buddy, and have double redundancy when solo.

[aainslie]

Solo is why I went sidemount in the first place. It's a highly redundant system. 90% of my cave dives are solo, and I would be very uncomfortable were I not sidemount.

Your example of a minor air loss from the QD is a good example of where calm thought can really help. That was NOT an emergency. This is also where sidemount is perfect as valves and first stages are easy to reach.

Your safest option IMHO would have been to continue exiting ON THAT TANK, breathing it to absolutely nothing if necessary and keeping the other tank as a reserve. Feathering the valve between breaths would have helped. Replugging the QD into the inflator might have helped also. You probably just had a bit of sand embedded in the valve.

I've now had a few occasions where one (and on one occasion, two) tanks crapped out on me while on my own. With sidemount it's a minor inconvenience, with extra stages a non-issue. Keep thinking, keep experimenting, keep trying to fix things while swimming out. A huge advantage of having a stage is that you can breathe one tank empty, then remove its regulator and redeploy that on the problematic tank while breathing off the other tank. In fresh water this works pretty well and doesn't seem to cause any harm to the reg. A huge advantage of sidemount is that everything is in front of you where you can see it. This makes feathering valves, redeploying first stages, or taking first stages off and/or reseating them easy to do. I've now several times managed to get a bubbling first stage under control while under water. The latest trick I've learned is that sometimes the DIN holder gets loose and bubbles come out from where the holder keeps a small O-ring in place - this is the bit that is usually torqued into place using an allen wrench. I found that rotating the WHOLE first stage a few times often tightens that irritating piece down enough to stop the bubbles for the rest of that dive. This has saved me once on a stage, and once on an O2 cylinder. It tends to happen after depressurizing and repressurizing. Another point - often an alarming amount of bubbling actually results in relatively minor gas loss, so while the first stage may bubble horribly, that tank may keep breathing for another 20 minutes, especially if you're feathering it. DON'T JUST SHUT IT DOWN AND IGNORE IT! If it has gas in it, you should be thinking how to breathe that gas. And if you can't stop it bubbling, breathe IT until it's empty.

I'm not a fan of H-valves and SM. As Slim says, it can just complicate things more with not much gain in reduncancy. I AM a fan of stages. An extra stage massively increases your options, even when you are using it during the dive.

[Mike Edmonston]

Solo is why I went sidemount in the first place. It's a highly redundant system. 90% of my cave dives are solo, and I would be very uncomfortable were I not sidemount.

Your example of a minor air loss from the QD is a good example of where calm thought can really help. That was NOT an emergency. This is also where sidemount is perfect as valves and first stages are easy to reach.

Your safest option IMHO would have been to continue exiting ON THAT TANK, breathing it to absolutely nothing if necessary and keeping the other tank as a reserve. Feathering the valve between breaths would have helped. Replugging the QD into the inflator might have helped also. You probably just had a bit of sand embedded in the valve.

I've now had a few occasions where one (and on one occasion, two) tanks crapped out on me while on my own. With sidemount it's a minor inconvenience, with extra stages a non-issue. Keep thinking, keep experimenting, keep trying to fix things while swimming out. A huge advantage of having a stage is that you can breathe one tank empty, then remove its regulator and redeploy that on the problematic tank while breathing off the other tank. In fresh water this works pretty well and doesn't seem to cause any harm to the reg. A huge advantage of sidemount is that everything is in front of you where you can see it. This makes feathering valves, redeploying first stages, or taking first stages off and/or reseating them easy to do. I've now several times managed to get a bubbling first stage under control while under water. The latest trick I've learned is that sometimes the DIN holder gets loose and bubbles come out from where the holder keeps a small O-ring in place - this is the bit that is usually torqued into place using an allen wrench. I found that rotating the WHOLE first stage a few times often tightens that irritating piece down enough to stop the bubbles for the rest of that dive. This has saved me once on a stage, and once on an O2 cylinder. It tends to happen after depressurizing and repressurizing. Another point - often an alarming amount of bubbling actually results in relatively minor gas loss, so while the first stage may bubble horribly, that tank may keep breathing for another 20 minutes, especially if you're feathering it. DON'T JUST SHUT IT DOWN AND IGNORE IT! If it has gas in it, you should be thinking how to breathe that gas. And if you can't stop it bubbling, breathe IT until it's empty.

I'm not a fan of H-valves and SM. As Slim says, it can just complicate things more with not much gain in reduncancy. I AM a fan of stages. An extra stage massively increases your options, even when you are using it during the dive.

Andrew,

Do you keep your stage(s) with you, or do you like to drop them at specific intervals (1/2 planned penetration, drop with scooter etc..)

Thanks bud

[DeWayne]

...I had bubbles coming from my inflator. When I disconnected the LP hose, a good amount of bubbles turned into A LOT of bubbles. ...What happened was the metal piece on the inflator that connects to the LP hose came out and was still stuck in the hose, thus the increased bubbles. ...

Was it by chance a fairly new DR inflator? The nipple on my Nomad began leaking last fall (easy quarry dive, so no real biggie) and when I looked at it after exiting I noticed that it was real loose, not even hand tight. I tightened it back down, but it sure did not feel good (threads had a loose feel about them and the torque just never was there which had me afraid I might strip those plastic threads.) I replaced it with a spare at home figuring I might have been that one diver in a million who got the defective inflator, but your story has me wondering if perhaps Lamar had a bad production run (DR has great customer service, so I am not holding bad OEM part runs against them) that he might want to look into.

[aainslie]

Hey Mike,

I drop them off. In a high flow cave i breathe them to 1/2 + 200, in no flow to 1/3 or less. But I don't usually go all the way to thirds on my back (or side :) ) gas. The stages give you lots of options as things start to fail because as soon as you reach that stage, you can start fixing stuff or opening up your options.

[EGIB]

Was it by chance a fairly new DR inflator? The nipple on my Nomad began leaking last fall (easy quarry dive, so no real biggie) and when I looked at it after exiting I noticed that it was real loose, not even hand tight. I tightened it back down, but it sure did not feel good (threads had a loose feel about them and the torque just never was there which had me afraid I might strip those plastic threads.) I replaced it with a spare at home figuring I might have been that one diver in a million who got the defective inflator, but your story has me wondering if perhaps Lamar had a bad production run (DR has great customer service, so I am not holding bad OEM part runs against them) that he might want to look into.

I had a problem with the inflator several days before my "incident" and I replaced the O-ring. The threads were probably damaged when all this happened...we did noticed that the plastic was just stripping off. I replaced the entire inflator... the one on the nomad did seem pretty dingy compared to the one on my classic wing.

[EGIB]

Your example of a minor air loss from the QD is a good example of where calm thought can really help. That was NOT an emergency. This is also where sidemount is perfect as valves and first stages are easy to reach.

Yes I know it wasn't an emergency. There is an underlying issue here, which is my personal comfort level...I pushed my limits and learned a big lesson. But it was incredibly easy to shut down my tank!


Your safest option IMHO would have been to continue exiting ON THAT TANK, breathing it to absolutely nothing if necessary and keeping the other tank as a reserve. Feathering the valve between breaths would have helped. Replugging the QD into the inflator might have helped also. You probably just had a bit of sand embedded in the valve.

Several people have voiced this opinion, I agree. Not sure if I could have gotten the inflator working again though, it was pretty busted.

Thanks for the other advice Andrew, I know I have a lot to learn. I am glad that I had a minor problem to get me thinking about these things rather than a more serious problem later on that I could not deal with.


I'm not a fan of H-valves and SM. As Slim says, it can just complicate things more with not much gain in reduncancy. I AM a fan of stages. An extra stage massively increases your options, even when you are using it during the dive.

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both, I guess to each his own... It will be a while before I have a set-up that I stick with.

[Mike Edmonston]

It will be a while before I have a set-up that I stick with.

The only constant, is that you will be tinkering with your rig perpetually. Well, maybe it's just me as I can never leave well enough alone :yawinkle:

Safe diving

[cavediver256]

The only constant, is that you will be tinkering with your rig perpetually. Well, maybe it's just me as I can never leave well enough alone :yawinkle:

Safe diving

Its not just you Mike.... I find myself tweaking all the time....you should see LP hose collection I have acquired.... :smt102

[DeWayne]

I had a problem with the inflator several days before my "incident" and I replaced the O-ring. The threads were probably damaged when all this happened...we did noticed that the plastic was just stripping off. I replaced the entire inflator... the one on the nomad did seem pretty dingy compared to the one on my classic wing.

Mine looked pretty much like the standard generic inflator, so I never gave it much thought until I saw your report. I bought my Nomad the beginning of last year, so I am guessing the inflator was probably run in late 2006? I was just curious about it, wondering if your's might have been from the same general time frame (would be very easy for a bad batch to run through the way they are produced.) After tightening mine back up it did not leak, but it still did not feel tight (I was afraid of stripping the plastic threads so I just swapped out an old one and kept that as a spare.) Thanks.

[aainslie]

hey, I should have pointed out that I'm a newbie myself with only 150 or so cave dives and about 200 sidemount. But I do try to take a learning approach, and I've come to the conclusion that what I suggested is useful after a lot of thought.

The first time I had a problem, I crapped myself and did all the wrong things. A really important thing is to "what if" this stuff endlessly. Thanks for starting this discussion, I've picked up quite a few good pointers from it.

Comfort levels really change. I remember the first time my primary went out when I was on my own - my heartbeat doubled and I turned immediately. I'm a lot more relaxed about it now! The same with air loss situations. They always require an immediate response, but are rarely immediately dangerous in sidemount. And you ALWAYS get to keep at least 1/2 your air, as long as you've been running down your tanks equally.

On the inflator - maybe somebody should chat to them. I too had a lot of trouble with my Nomad inflator and changed it after about 50 dives. It just wouldn't stop a very slow bubbling.


Yes I know it wasn't an emergency. There is an underlying issue here, which is my personal comfort level...I pushed my limits and learned a big lesson. But it was incredibly easy to shut down my tank!



Several people have voiced this opinion, I agree. Not sure if I could have gotten the inflator working again though, it was pretty busted.

Thanks for the other advice Andrew, I know I have a lot to learn. I am glad that I had a minor problem to get me thinking about these things rather than a more serious problem later on that I could not deal with.



I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both, I guess to each his own... It will be a while before I have a set-up that I stick with.

[chimie007]

Comfort levels really change. I remember the first time my primary went out when I was on my own - my heartbeat doubled and I turned immediately.

I have been considering carrying a small mask light always ON to avoid the ho sh$# factor. Now that I might start doing some solo scooter dives, I'm seriously considering a second light always on. Things happen fast with a scooter. Not the best moment to go dark. Not sure how I will go about it yet.

For some contingencies, I only planned my head (switching regs for example) but some other stuff I like to just do it to make sure I know I can do it. For example, I have swam back from the Henkle to see how much gas I needed in case of a dead scooter.

[cavediver256]

I have been considering carrying a small mask light always ON to avoid the ho sh$# factor. Now that I might start doing some solo scooter dives, I'm seriously considering a second light always on. Things happen fast with a scooter. Not the best moment to go dark. Not sure how I will go about it yet.

For some contingencies, I only planned my head (switching regs for example) but some other stuff I like to just do it to make sure I know I can do it. For example, I have swam back from the Henkle to see how much gas I needed in case of a dead scooter.

Raphael, not sure if it would be enough light, but on solo sidemount dives, I always run a small light attached to my mask. That way when the primary does go dark, I am not in it as well.

[DeWayne]

I have been considering carrying a small mask light always ON to avoid the ho sh$# factor. Now that I might start doing some solo scooter dives, I'm seriously considering a second light always on. Things happen fast with a scooter. Not the best moment to go dark. Not sure how I will go about it yet.

For some contingencies, I only planned my head (switching regs for example) but some other stuff I like to just do it to make sure I know I can do it. For example, I have swam back from the Henkle to see how much gas I needed in case of a dead scooter.

Lol, ask Russell to tell you about how dark (and how fast) the cave gets when your primary light fails while scootering. Been using one of those mini Q40 LED's on my mask strap for quite some time (when Russell asked me if I had ever experienced this phenomena, I asked him if he had ever noticed the mask light before) and would feel lost without it. It's the first thing I turn on as I get ready and the last thing I turn off as I exit. Small enough I don't even notice it, but still provides enough light to avoid hitting anything, and not bad on battery life.

I bought my SS through KennyP, and the best advice he gave me was to every so often clip the scooter off and swim out so I would know what to expect when (not if) it went dead.

[FW]

I always wear a helmet, with lights, when I am sumpdiving. After this weekend, I am going to start wearing it in Florida! The scooter "experts" can say what they want, but if you bang your head on the ceiling when your primary goes out, it could be fatal.

Rather than list them here, here two of my "pucker" dives:

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5516
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5518

I have also had tank O-rings blow, freeflows, manifold leaks, and buddies that "thought" they needed air. After awhile, you learn to deal with whatever happens.

[jpdiver]

Oooh, I started a hot thread, lol.

Ok...I guess now I have to tell the (slightly embarrassing) reason why I had to shut off a tank. I had bubbles coming from my inflator. When I disconnected the LP hose, a good amount of bubbles turned into A LOT of bubbles. I immediately shut down the tank and started my exit.


Another advantage to sidemounting is that it is easy to valve breath a tank with a problem as you describe. You could have gotten a lot of air from this tank if you needed it

[Slüdge]

Lol, ask Russell to tell you about how dark (and how fast) the cave gets when your primary light fails while scootering.

Reeeeaaal dark.

Reeeeaaal fast.

[aainslie]

Scary stuff, Forrest! I went off a line once and ended up silted out - I was only 10 ft from the line but it took me a while to find it, heart pumping all the time. It's incredible how quickly you can get disoriented. Your post about losing orientation on which way is out has happened to me also - I now drop an arrow every few hunderd feet in a passage I don't know, to help reassure me on the way out. Does wonders for keeping me calm!

I'm a big fan of helmets. I use a climbing helmet with extra holes drilled in the top to help air to excape - otherwise it's too floaty. One of those UK LED lights on each side. Very useful for scootering and when lights fail.

Russell, sounds like you had one of those sudden SAC increase moments there!

Nice thread. Thanks everyone for the tips and comments.

[JimC]

I managed to break a line in a tanic river cave near Ottawa, in a silty grungy tunnel that I was adding line to. I had just pushed/dug though a mount of rotting crap and added 30 feet of line before it pinched down. Turned, clawed my way out in zero vis and back to the previous stuff. Then the old line broke. Fun stuff. Took me about 10 minutes to get ~100 feet back onto the main trunk passage with 3/4inch poly rope. Sure puts minor annoyances like loosing your primary into perspective.