Altering caves for access

[DeWayne]

Reading Gary's description of the cave at Sweetwater spring got me wondering when, if ever, is it okay to alter the cave in order to have access to it. (okay, I'm procrastinating going back to working on a major paper that is due soon, but still find this topic interesting.)


The 6 inch by 12inch hole was the largest hole leading farther and was at max depth (17') penetration probably 30-40' at that point. No chance of getting even a stage bottle through there without digging the hole bigger (which I am against - and probably wouldn't get you very much farther). .

I've heard that this is done quite often in sumps, but what about springs? I'm curious what everyone else thinks about this.

[Dwain]

I say no... Let nature take its course.

[DeWayne]

I say no... Let nature take its course.

I feel the same way, but yet I can't help but think what if another Wakulla lies just beyond that restriction? Or how about a case along the lines of Morrison where the cave was altered to deny access, would diggin that out be seen as okay?

[DeWayne]

BTW, if the Mods feel that this is better suited under conservation feel free to move it there.

[Dwain]

I think that in the Case of Hart Springs that it should have never been covered. It diverts flow to other area that may not be able to handle the force.

[Tegg]

Why alter something that is being altered on it's own everyday?

If you can't get in the spring vent no-mount, then why 'alter' the cave to get in? I would seem to think that alteration of a spring vent would have more impact then any alteration of a dry cave hole. Altough that too is really an 'unknown'.

I say if it is smaller then no-mount, there are enough other places to dive... :)

[ARY]

Reading Gary's description of the cave at Sweetwater spring got me wondering when, if ever, is it okay to alter the cave in order to have access to it. (okay, I'm procrastinating going back to working on a major paper that is due soon, but still find this topic interesting.)

So many entrances were modifed, grated, even destroyed and those decision makers were listening themself only in a name of community of cause. I like it natural but i would vote yes for reasonable exploration digging: if there is just a debris, loose rock or something that will collapse anyway with a time... Also, if there is a system there should be other signs on a surface like depressions, sinks, right? May be it is better to look for alternative entries (i saw couple more holes going downstream by J creek).

[Genesis]

I agree in general but believe there are exceptions.

I'd have no issue with someone "altering" Morrison, since it was open and was "closed off" by the acts of man. Returning it to a closer state to what it was originally is not, IMHO, a "sin" against conservation - indeed, it can be argued that the blasting operation was the "bad move" and you're only fixing what someone else "broke."

Morrison in particular is a real bummer - and its tantalizing, with that flow blasting out of there. There's a second small hole (with a bowling ball in it that is just beyond my reach!) that might be able to be cleared (there's a lot of pea-sized and smaller pieces of rock swirling around on the bottom there; whether clearing that would expose a large enough vent to get into I don't know....)

Then there are sites like Ginnie where they gated off the "old" cave. That hole looks enticing too..... (of course that's WHY they gated it off - it enticed a few too many people!)

[Dwain]

I think someone was trying to using the bowling ball as a battering ram.

When I was there last weekend I noticed that the hole to the left was very clean very little gravel and the rocks around the second hole seemed to be broken. I would have to say that a No Mount Diver would be able to get through... But they would have to be skinny.

[DeWayne]

It would probably take a major dredging operation to open it up reliably. A lot of folks ahve spent much time attempting to dig out the restriction, only to have the flow negate their actions over night.

[Dwain]

Like I said a no mount diver can now get through... Came first hand from an individual that I trust.

[DeWayne]

Would be nice if it could be dug out enough to pass through. Now you have me wanting to drive over and take a look at it.

[Dwain]

If you do, you will see the see the bowling ball then diectly to the left is another area with an out flow... that's where you will see a no mount entrance.

[Genesis]

I dunno.... you'd have to be VERY skinny.

I doubt my HEAD would fit through that crack, say much less my body. Tanks or no tanks.

[DeWayne]

how skinny would skinny need to be?

[Genesis]

My kid would fit in a wetsuit.

Stacy MIGHT fit. MAYBE.

[Dwain]

But Stacy has a long way to go for training and experience for that kind of dive.

[DeWayne]

Guess that means that I would definitely not fit then.

[JDR]

For the record, if anyone finds a hole that needs a little "modification" to the entrance before it can be dove, call me. I'll be more than happy to exert some North Pacific Wreck Diving Implements and get 'er open enough to lay some line.

:wink:

In Peacock, I often wondered how much cave would open up if one were willing to blow sediments out of what appears to be going passage. When I first started cave diving (not very long ago), I took all of the bm jumps that I could. Almost all of those passages ended up being blocked, not by rock, but by silty ****. I'm all for conservation and have never attempted to damage any UW cave in any way, but it was tempting to bring along a couple of full stage bottles, attach a whip with an air blower(thingy), and blow some of the stuff out of the way to see where it went. LR has a few places that look like filled in cave. Actually, almost every cave that I've been in has what appears to be going passage that's blocked by sediment. Obviously, the flow in these areas is limited, but it would be nice to see some new stuff.

New question: Has anyone ever used high pressure air to blow sediment out of an opening or to clear the entrance of going passage?
In theory, the idea sounds feasible. It would definately make for a touch contact dive :D

[DeWayne]

It would be a lot easier to guage at places such as Morrison if there was some way of knowing just how much damage was done further down when they blasted it closed. The first restriction there has some major flow coming out, so every effort I have ever seen to dig it out has resulted in the flow filling it back in. I'm not sure if anyone has ever tried using air to blow some out, but many have hauled rocks and other sediment up and out of the cavern with little luck. It's actually closer than JB so I would not mind going out there one day and seeing what might could be done. I talked about it a lot with the guy who used to run it and his opinion was it would take something along the lines of dredging it and hoping that the blast had not caused more restrictions further down.

[Genesis]

The way to do this is not with blowing, but with sucking.

Specifically, what you want is called a "air lift". They are very easy to make, and deceptively easy to use. They can also be quite dangerous.

Basically you take a 2" (larger gets even MORE dangerous!) PVC pipe of 10-20' long, and put a hole near the bottom (1' from the bottom is about right) into which can fit an air injection device (e.g. "blow gun" style connector off a BC line). You then position the open end over what you want to suck up and turn on the air.

Air rises, sucks up the water along with it, and as it goes up the tube it expands. The result is an unbelieveably strong lift through the tube. The longer the tube the more suction - and the harder it is to control.

Hazards include immediately zeroing the vis and whatever gets sucked up being ejected at the top (angle it!) and falling back down, along with the possibility of parts of your kit (or you!) getting into the intake. The latter MUST be avoided for obvious reasons.

http://www.maintenanceresources.com/ReferenceLibrary/Pumps/air_lift.htm

No way to know what's beyond that first restriction until you get past it, of course... :D

[fun2dive]

Hmmm, I might fit... Need more training first; not ready to die...

[DeWayne]

Hmmm, I might fit... Need more training first; not ready to die...

Karl and I will hold the rope we tie around you. We have to pull you back out to find out what is back there.

[normblitch]

So many entrances were modifed, grated, even destroyed and those decision makers were listening themself only in a name of community of cause. I like it natural but i would vote yes for reasonable exploration digging: if there is just a debris, loose rock or something that will collapse anyway with a time... Also, if there is a system there should be other signs on a surface like depressions, sinks, right? May be it is better to look for alternative entries (i saw couple more holes going downstream by J creek).

I'll bet that there are some NSS dry cavers here...

What is the position accepted among the DRY caving Community re "digging" and such??

Norm

[crazyduck]

I am shocked not to hear the war cry of “Get her Done!”

With all of the experience of this group I figure it is a matter of time.

Just some ideas-
1. Smart Diver’s out of Texas Airlifted tons of Debris from Jacobs Well, when they tried to stabilize the floor.
2. Pneumatic tools are readily available; scuba tank with hosing and pressure reducer is easy to pipe.
3. When they clean out the grating that covered the spring flow from the Blue Hole in New Mexico they put in a vertical tube to allow sediment to collect around the edges without falling back into the spring vent. Now you just need to sneak in a 5ft Diameter piece of pipe.

Andrew

I was not here, I never said this – Dune.

[ghekhuis]

I'll bet that there are some NSS dry cavers here...

What is the position accepted among the DRY caving Community re "digging" and such??

Norm

As far as I know, just about anything is fair to get in, although some folks get really upset about stuff once you're in. 'Course people disagree on how many feet constitutes "in." I think digging or whatever is required is generally considered OK to gain access, but lots of folks frown on modification of passage once inside the cave.

[Moonfuzzy]

New question: Has anyone ever used high pressure air to blow sediment out of an opening or to clear the entrance of going passage?
In theory, the idea sounds feasible. It would definately make for a touch contact dive :D

I have heard of people using the suction think mentioned above to clear out some sand choking a cave entrance. Where water usage / agriculture / damming has cause the flow to drop I don't think it is as much of a sin to open up a restricted entrance.

[Genesis]

In this case the original cave WAS open, but one fine sheriff thought that dynamite was a "good idea" to keep people out. As such I don't think there's a "conservation" argument that can be made - what's there now CERTAINLY isn't what was originally.

BTW, the blasting wire is still there and very visible on even cursory inspection. Sure hope all the sticks went off.... 8)

[sdenney]

IMHO, I thinks the caves should be left to mature naturally. However, there are exceptions, especially if it involves peoples lives. Supposedly, in the not too distant future, the lips in the Devil's system will close shut. I could see using jacks to keep the lips open, or excavating a passage beforehand to allow divers to exit should the lips close. Or in the case of Morrison, I could see reopening an entrance that was originally open.

[Webmaster]

I've dug on a lot of dry caves, and folks positions on that vary. But there is a great deal of cave, including some major multi mile systems that we owe to digging, Lechugilla comes to mind, and Blue Springs here in TN (which happens to be the longest in the state).

It's often a lot of work, but it can be the best way to find more cave. Most of the big easy walk-in stuff seems to have already been found. ;-) I'm of the opinion that we have gained FAR more from digging than we ever lost.

About Hart, I believe it filled in when the retaining wall around the basin collapsed, not filled intentionally. That reduced the flow enough to allow imported sand to accumulate further blocking it. There's still a lot of debris in there as well.