Ted Nugent

[Me]

YEAH! I love Ted, he tells it like it is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_QjEL0uUgo

[Gibby]

YEEEEAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He is awesome!

Evil is as evil does, and laws disarming guaranteed victims make evil people very, very happy. ~ted

~G

[zlyrack]

Haha... Go Ted! :twisted:

I'm stunned. I've heard Mr. Nugent on the EIB Network years ago, but I'd forgotten how eloquent and succinct he can be. To call Ms. Clinton, Ms. Boxer and Ms. Feinstein "a gaggle of numbnuts" - priceless.

I recommend viewing this, regardless of your views on gun control.

[cavediver256]

You can always count on the wild man telling like it is..... :twisted: The Motor City Madman ladies and gentlemen !!!!

[aainslie]

Seriously? Nugent, the poster boy for eloquent rhetoric?

Let's look at two websites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

It doesn't take much to see the outlier. The US is the only wealthy country where you stand a good chance of being shot - and the only wealthy country where weapons are easily available.

I've lived in South Africa and Zimbabwe. They're not pretty places to live in terms of personal safety.This "defence" idea is the stupidest piece of crap that I've ever heard. It made sense back in the 18th and 19th century, but seriously... going to Telford on a Sunday before the ban and realizing that you were giving both yourself and those morons the "right to bear arms" - that's a good thing how?

Look around you next time you're in a redneck bar - and realize the rather obvious problem with the reciprocity of this little "defence" arrangement.

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.

Sorry about the vent. But seriously, that's the dumbest amendment we have. The only reason I feel it has any place in law is because there are so many others that it would be sad to contest - and opening up this one would bring others into dispute.

Like, say, the right to free speech.

[Gibby]

I like those links. You can click around and make the US and other countries look better or worse dependent on your own personal view.

If you look at firearm murders we rank 9th and just plain old murder nets the US 24th.

As I look further into this site it seems a little twisted.
This page (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/cri-crime) say the following

"The United States puts 0.7 % of its population in Prison - a vastly higher percentage than any other nation."

But on this page
Convicted (per capita) (Latest available) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_con_percap-crime-convicted-per-capita)

The US isn't even listed.


:roll:

[stairman]

As an avid hunter and gun owner I agree in the right to own them.I dont think an armed public will save as many lives as would be taken.Yes it would be nice to have a gun to drop someone who was doing you harm ,but with our justice system you have to be sure you can prove self defense or youll be the one locked up.Carrying sidearms to me is not a good idea in a society who impairs their judgement with alcohol and drugs.Im damn sure not that paronoid.Ted Nugent uses a bow for hunting mainly but Ive noticed he has pulled out alot of assault rifles here lately on his show to really irritate the gun control lobyists.He is a smart man,a little corny at times,but is probably the best spokesman for gun control yet.Good guitar player too.FWIW.all my guns are for killing animals.I have no plans on shooting people and have no use for guns designed for that purpose.They should however remain legal for those who collect them and I think thats why Nugent is showcasing them more and more.If they are outlawed then supposedly hunting rifles and shotguns will be next.No way will I ever give up my guns without a fight.

[defunct]

Seriously? Nugent, the poster boy for eloquent rhetoric?

Let's look at two websites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

It doesn't take much to see the outlier. The US is the only wealthy country where you stand a good chance of being shot - and the only wealthy country where weapons are easily available.

I've lived in South Africa and Zimbabwe. They're not pretty places to live in terms of personal safety.This "defence" idea is the stupidest piece of crap that I've ever heard. It made sense back in the 18th and 19th century, but seriously... going to Telford on a Sunday before the ban and realizing that you were giving both yourself and those morons the "right to bear arms" - that's a good thing how?

Look around you next time you're in a redneck bar - and realize the rather obvious problem with the reciprocity of this little "defence" arrangement.

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.

Sorry about the vent. But seriously, that's the dumbest amendment we have. The only reason I feel it has any place in law is because there are so many others that it would be sad to contest - and opening up this one would bring others into dispute.

Like, say, the right to free speech.

I hope you're not serious... but in case you are, I'm glad you weren't robbed at the gas station by a knife, you might want us to cut meat with spoons...

If possible, can you provide me a simple proven statistic.

Show me a country that has disarmed it's citizens that had a dramatic reduction in violent crime (rapes, muggings, etc).

Let me save you some time... there are none.

Criminals will be criminals. Having a law against a weapon NEVER removes the weapon from the criminals. It ONLY removes it from LAW ABIDING CITIZENS.

If you disagree with that, then maybe you should move to a "safer" country where there are not so many law abiding citizens with guns on them while you eat your tofu in the sushi bar. (I eat there and carry a gun at all times... Oh No!!)

Either way... I'm glad to have the right to own guns. I own many of them and shoot them regularly at the range as a sporting activity along with hunting. I also as I said above, carry my gun everywhere I can legally. I personally have never had to use my gun, but it's nice to know it's there when/if I need it. I have never shot anyone with the gun I carry, and I have been in positions where there was tension. Then again, law abiding citizens think before pulling a weapon...

[Corbett]

Thanks Me, I'm supposed to be working on a presentation
about "Charles' Law" but instead I've been watching old
Ted Nugent videos on Youtube for the last two hours.

[Mike Edmonston]

Thanks Me, I'm supposed to be working on a presentation
about "Charles' Law" but instead I've been watching old
Ted Nugent videos on Youtube for the last two hours.

The Waanngoooo de Tangoooo.... 1..2..3..4..

I remember seeing him in 1976

AWESOME!!!

[jeandiver]

I'm stunned. I've heard Mr. Nugent on the EIB Network years ago, but I'd forgotten how eloquent and succinct he can be. To call Ms. Clinton, Ms. Boxer and Ms. Feinstein "a gaggle of numbnuts" - priceless.

I recommend viewing this, regardless of your views on gun control.

Thanks !
I noticed the GAGGLE quote :D
You know , coming from Minnesota (a BLUE State) and now being down here , well , SOME views they are changing.
I don't use/own guns myself but as for others , It IS your right.
Hmmm... People kill People.

OK , off of soap-box now...Thanks

Jean

[Line Squirrel]

Sorry about the vent. But seriously, that's the dumbest amendment we have. The only reason I feel it has any place in law is because there are so many others that it would be sad to contest - and opening up this one would bring others into dispute.

Like, say, the right to free speech.

Okay - here it is:

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


I would like to know what is stupid about that.


Don't you get it? It's the most important one!! Without the second amendment we are in dire jeopardy of losing all the rest. Our founding fathers realized this, that's why they added it. The PRIMARY reason the second amendment was written is, not was, to allow the citizens of this United States to protect themselves against a tyrannical government, among other reasons, NOT to protect my right to hunt squirrels.

How do you think they led the Jews into boxcars? Do you really think they would have gone if they [the Jews] had the means to resist?
I know one thing, around 6 million of them lost their right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness didn't they?

[Angie Reim]

I've been in a home when it was broken into. All I can say is that thoughts of gun control for or against go out the door and all you want is something to defend yourself with. Best to run -- but without that option I'm glad I have the right to own a hand gun and keep a nasty dog.

That being said...however....descretion is key to staying off the 'criminal radar'. What you 'own' is not necessarily something to be proud of and FWIW bear mace will usually suffice. (In Dog We Trust :lol: ).

[curtschu]

I had the pleasure of providing security for Ted at an appearence in Winter Garden at a sporting goods store. He his a very nice guy and understands his audiance. No one is ever going to make an NE liberal or a Marin County Hot Tuber understand why it important to preserve our rights. Too many take them for granted because there is no belief that the Government is going to pull something. But imagine if you lived in Myannmar, Darfur, Sudan, Hell any west African Country. These are places that have disarmed the populas and the government then surpresses all opposition. You say how great South Africa is, I bet the Black men that couldn't have guns would not have agreed with you. How about the white farmers that were forced off their land Here's what happened when no one can fight for there rights


"Under the leadership of current president Robert Mugabe the economy of Zimbabwe declined from one of the strongest in Africa to one of the weakest and political tension has never been higher. In 1999 the Movement for Democratic Change was established and have campaigned for an end to "Mugabe's Reign of Terror". 80% of Zimbabweans are unemployed and inflation has soared to well over 15,000%." Yeah Zimbabwe a great example.

[BgDadddy]

Wow... I didn't know there were any bleeding heart liberal cave divers in the world... Kind of a contradiction of terms... Very odd indeed....






Seriously? Nugent, the poster boy for eloquent rhetoric?

Let's look at two websites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

It doesn't take much to see the outlier. The US is the only wealthy country where you stand a good chance of being shot - and the only wealthy country where weapons are easily available.

I've lived in South Africa and Zimbabwe. They're not pretty places to live in terms of personal safety.This "defence" idea is the stupidest piece of crap that I've ever heard. It made sense back in the 18th and 19th century, but seriously... going to Telford on a Sunday before the ban and realizing that you were giving both yourself and those morons the "right to bear arms" - that's a good thing how?

Look around you next time you're in a redneck bar - and realize the rather obvious problem with the reciprocity of this little "defence" arrangement.

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.

Sorry about the vent. But seriously, that's the dumbest amendment we have. The only reason I feel it has any place in law is because there are so many others that it would be sad to contest - and opening up this one would bring others into dispute.

Like, say, the right to free speech.

[Wizard]

Hitler's own generals told him if Germany did attack the USA, they wouldn't get a few miles off the beach.
They told Hitler there would be a 14 year old boy with a gun behind every tree.

[Line Squirrel]

Could be wrong but isn't it the Swiss that require all able bodied males of age to keep a fully auto weapon in ther home?

How's their crime rate? I've heard it is one of the, if not THE, lowest per capita in the world.

[defunct]

Could be wrong but isn't it the Swiss that require all able bodied males of age to keep a fully auto weapon in ther home?

How's their crime rate? I've heard it is one of the, if not THE, lowest per capita in the world.

Kinda...

If one is part of the militia, then yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1566715.stm

[Line Squirrel]

Http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1566715.stm

Here is the above article:

Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.

The country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols.

This is in a very large part due to Switzerland's unique system of national defence, developed over the centuries.

Instead of a standing, full-time army, the country requires every man to undergo some form of military training for a few days or weeks a year throughout most of their lives.

Between the ages of 21 and 32 men serve as frontline troops. They are given an M-57 assault rifle and 24 rounds of ammunition which they are required to keep at home.

Once discharged, men serve in the Swiss equivalent of the US National Guard, but still have to train occasionally and are given bolt rifles. Women do not have to own firearms, but are encouraged to.

Few restrictions

In addition to the government-provided arms, there are few restrictions on buying weapons. Some cantons restrict the carrying of firearms - others do not.

The government even sells off surplus weaponry to the general public when new equipment is introduced.

Guns and shooting are popular national pastimes. More than 200,000 Swiss attend national annual marksmanship competitions.

But despite the wide ownership and availability of guns, violent crime is extremely rare. There are only minimal controls at public buildings and politicians rarely have police protection.

Mark Eisenecker, a sociologist from the University of Zurich told BBC News Online that guns are "anchored" in Swiss society and that gun control is simply not an issue.

Some pro-gun groups argue that Switzerland proves their contention that there is not necessarily a link between the availability of guns and violent crime in society.

Low crime

But other commentators suggest that the reality is more complicated.

Switzerland is one of the world's richest countries, but has remained relatively isolated.

It has none of the social problems associated with gun crime seen in other industrialised countries like drugs or urban deprivation.
Despite the lack of rigid gun laws, firearms are strictly connected to a sense of collective responsibility.

From an early age Swiss men and women associate weaponry with being called to defend their country.

[MORGAN]

Vermont has the fewest gun laws of any state, and also the consistently lowest rates of violent crime and gun-related crime. This is a holdover from the constitution of the Republic of Vermont when Vermont was an independent country from 1777 to 1791. Our constitution is less vague than the US Second Amendment - it states unequivocally: "The people have the right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the state."

There are two Vermont laws regarding guns:

1) You can't carry a loaded long gun in a motor vehicle - loaded handguns are OK. This is a Fish & Wildlife law to make it harder for poachers.

2) You can't carry a concealed weapon (firearm or otherwise) for the purpose of committing a crime. If you don't intend to commit a crime, it's fine to carry concealed; no permit is necessary. There's no such thing in Vermont as a concealed carry permit.

I spent the 1980's crack epidemic working as a paramedic in the most
crime and drug ridden part of Massachusetts, which has very strict gun control laws. Shootings were a near-daily occurrence. Almost all of them were drug dealers and gang members shooting each other. None of the police officers, EMT's, paramedics, or ER staff I worked with ever said in my hearing that they thought gun control laws worked; there was plentiful evidence in front of us every day that they didn't.

I think of the .45 in my nightstand the same way I think of a fire extinguisher - a piece of safety equipment for an emergency that I hope will never come.

Mike

[Wizard]

Only one .45 ??? You're a cave diver for crying out loud. Think redundancy! :-D

[stairman]

I dont know any statistics but black on black crime dominates in the larger towns and cities.Just another reason to fight those pesky gun controlers

[aainslie]

Wow... I didn't know there were any bleeding heart liberal cave divers in the world... Kind of a contradiction of terms... Very odd indeed....



Well, I AM a Californian cavediver after all :)

I'm sort of a mix, and nothing like a bleeding heart liberal:

- I think religion is incredibly stupid. I'm as atheist as they come. Sort of like the writers of the constitution, I'd love it if one day we returned to a world where church and state were separated.
- I believe in minimal government. Again, nice if the Republicans believed in that one.
- I do NOT bellieve in state funded education or health. Pity about Bush and the recent elderly/prescription fiasco.
- Unlike a lot of the people who happily vote to send our troops to Iraq, I've done time in the military, been on both sides of active ambushes, been one vehicle behind a vehicle hit by a landmine, shot at people, been shot at, watched my own troops and people from the other side die, and in general have a pretty good idea what it's like to be actively involved in an unwinnable terrorist war. Oh - and unlike most anti-gun types, I love shooting (albeit skeet, trap and trench) and am pretty nifty with a 12 bore, an FN, a MAG and a Browning 9 mm. Oh - and I've fired 25 pound and 105 mm artillery guns, as well as 60 mm and 81mm mortar. The 25 pounder was againt an enemy force, while we were under fire. How many of you have done that?

I think of myself as essentially a conservative. Just not the sort of conservative that most Floridians think of themselves as. The last time the US had a conservative president IMHO, it was Clinton. Back when budgets were balanced, religion was kept the hell away from government business, and we didn't keep starting wars to keep our buddies' companies rich. Oh - and sex was something that was your business, not the whole freaking country's.

( This is fun! It's like being on the far side of a fence, taunting the lions... I suppose I'll have to lock my car next time I'm in Florida :) Mike, promise you'll still talk to me. I've seen the grouping on your armsmanship, and don't want to get the wrong side of you and a handgun!!!)

[MORGAN]

Only one .45 ??? You're a cave diver for crying out loud. Think redundancy! :-D

My redundancy is Tracy's Sig .40 in her duty belt hanging on the chair on her side of the bed. :D

Mike

[aainslie]

Whassup Mike?

I am a BIG believer in a professional army and police force. As well as a well written constitution. The US, IMHO, has an extraordinarily good consitiution. That alone is sufficient to stop the government abuses that early Americans had to put up with from the British. The Second Amendment whas a belts-and-braces approach that has backfired big time into an unregulated, violent mess.

I am NOT a believer in arming any turkey with $100. What the hell is "well regulated" about the average handgun owner? Most of them couldn't assemble and disassemble the thing in under 1/2 hour, and mainly use it after tehy've gotten roundly drunk. And back to my example of your average Telford gathering - is that your "well-regulated militia"?

Oh - and do you really want to do what the Swiss do, and return to national service? The Swiss maintain order by having national service, being the most xenophobic nation on earth, and massive socialism. Not the poster child for the average conservative.. well, at least the last one isn't :)

Oh - and Curt, the ANC took over South Africa largely through peaceful means, and the help of the outside world through sanctions. In my mind, it's one of the things that made them great. Mandela is a big supporter of Ghandi's concept of passive resistance. Unfortunately, there are a lot of weapons floating around South Africa because the Apartheid government beleived in weapons... and as defunct points out, once you let the cat out the bag it's hard to get it back in. Disarming the populace is a disaster, I would agree. The wrong people end up with weapons. So... I'd be the first to say that this early constitutional disaster is very hard - maybe impossible - to turn around.

Zimbabwe - god, don't go there. It's where I was born. It's a disaster. And arms were - and are - widely held by anyone who wants one.



Okay - here it is:

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


I would like to know what is stupid about that.


Don't you get it? It's the most important one!! Without the second amendment we are in dire jeopardy of losing all the rest. Our founding fathers realized this, that's why they added it. The PRIMARY reason the second amendment was written is, not was, to allow the citizens of this United States to protect themselves against a tyrannical government, among other reasons, NOT to protect my right to hunt squirrels.

How do you think they led the Jews into boxcars? Do you really think they would have gone if they [the Jews] had the means to resist?
I know one thing, around 6 million of them lost their right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness didn't they?

[cavediver256]

Only one .45 ??? You're a cave diver for crying out loud. Think redundancy! :-D

Cave diver yes, but before that USMC....One shot one kill !!!! Blood makes the grass grow. :-D If I need backup I have a second magazine.

[mfascuba]

Andrew,

We've got some common ground on the "smaller more responsible gubberment" wish. I'll have to pleasantly disagree with your gun control views, though.

Robert A. Heinlen - An armed society is a polite society.....


Mark

[Me]

This all reminds me.....my CCW permit renews next year. Must find out how to do so.....since I was a charter, so-to-speak, when it became law in Ohio.

Now that I am debt free, it's time to look at adding to my arsenal. Thoughts on an automatic, small, handgun for a female? I'm looking at the Sig Sauer 9mm....any other suggestions? I don't like the feel of a Glock...so don't suggest that one. I currently have a Taurus .38 snub revolver, but would like something new. One for the car/purse, one for the bedroom.

[Line Squirrel]

Mike, promise you'll still talk to me. I've seen the grouping on your armsmanship, and don't want to get the wrong side of you and a handgun!!!)

Andrew - There is no question we are at opposite ends of this but it's very difficult to debate anything over the internet.

There are so many things I agree with you 100% on [religion, publicly funded/government education, etc] but gun control isn't one of them.

Look forward to your next visit my friend, for now we will have to agree to dissagree. Save this discussion for when you are in town, over a good micro brew but you'll have to check your gun at the door :-D

PS: You've inspired me to change my signature :twisted:

[aquanut...]

This all reminds me.....my CCW permit renews next year. Must find out how to do so.....since I was a charter, so-to-speak, when it became law in Ohio.

Now that I am debt free, it's time to look at adding to my arsenal. Thoughts on an automatic, small, handgun for a female? I'm looking at the Sig Sauer 9mm....any other suggestions? I don't like the feel of a Glock...so don't suggest that one. I currently have a Taurus .38 snub revolver, but would like something new. One for the car/purse, one for the bedroom.

Look at a Colt defender. When I bought mine, it came in .40 and .45acp. I went .45acp and love it. It is compact, light weight, stainless/aluminum, easy to carry and plenty of firepower too. http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/Defender.asp

If criminals knew there was a strong possibility of being killed for their stupid crimes, they'd think twice before committing them. An armed public is good for crime control.

[defunct]

Most of them couldn't assemble and disassemble the thing in under 1/2 hour, and mainly use it after tehy've gotten roundly drunk.

Stats on the statement above would be good... since it is an opinion of your views... and not really a fact with any basis...



And back to my example of your average Telford gathering - is that your "well-regulated militia"?

Do me a favor... count how many times a gun was reported in use at Telford...

Thanks... :roll:

[aainslie]

Very funny signature, Mike!!

See you in November. Perhaps we can go shoot up some signs by the manhole! :)

(P.S. I still think Nugent should stick with playing music...)




Andrew - There is no question we are at opposite ends of this but it's very difficult to debate anything over the internet.

There are so many things I agree with you 100% on [religion, publicly funded/government education, etc] but gun control isn't one of them.

Look forward to your next visit my friend, for now we will have to agree to dissagree. Save this discussion for when you are in town, over a good micro brew but you'll have to check your gun at the door :-D

PS: You've inspired me to change my signature :twisted:

[FW]

Do me a favor... count how many times a gun was reported in use at Telford...

Thanks... :roll:
At least once too many. That is why Telford is closed now.

[Line Squirrel]

Do me a favor... count how many times a gun was reported in use at Telford...

Thanks... :roll:
At least once too many. That is why Telford is closed now.

The Telford closing, as I understand it, was more a result of the drunk 17 year old kid that could not swim, going swimming (or falling in) and drowning two years ago. Next of kin sued and won. That was the straw that broke the camels back.

The shooting did not happen at Telford however the partying at the spring WAS the bait to lure the two unfortunate victims to their death. I'm sure this didn't help. It could have only added the the decision to close Telford.

[Jordan]

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.



It is illegal to carry in Chicago. I wonder if it would've happened if it weren't.

[aainslie]

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.



It is illegal to carry in Chicago. I wonder if it would've happened if it weren't.

Hey Jordan. How's tne new job?

Here are two examples of where carrying didn't help stop criminals from carrying, AND didn't help the professionals carrying:

http://www.policestress.org/think.htm

[defunct]

Here are two examples of where carrying didn't help stop criminals from carrying, AND didn't help the professionals carrying:

http://www.policestress.org/think.htm

Actually, identifying themselves as officers (badge,vocal) is what did them in.

My actions in those situations as a citizen and not a sworn officer would have been different. I don't have to follow the same protocols or have the responsibility to tell them who or what I am.

Do you think those criminals who shot those officers would have carried those guns if there were laws against it? Of course they would have... laws obviously don't matter to them...

Poor examples. In the first, he wasn't shot because he had a gun, he was shot because he had a badge. He was probably strategizing that after the holdup was over, he would use the gun to attampt to apprehend them. Too bad the lowlifes showed what they were made of. I hope during their next escapade they ended up dying a horrible death.

In the second case, the officer thought he was dealing with one criminal, when in fact there were three. Whether he had a gun was probably irrevelant - when he happened upon the scene, the heartless thugs would have just shot him. Heck, they shot an unarmed cashier, why not an unarmed customer?

The above speculation is moot, however, when it comes to me. If you rob me at gunpoint, or knifepoint, the moment you turn your head I will place a bullet in it.

[aainslie]

In violent crimes you rarely get a chance to use a gun. If I'd had a gun in Chicago it would have been of little use to me. The cop on the floor got little utility from his weapon. Same with the guy who didn't think of the possibility of the criminal's partners. It wasn't protocol that hurt that cop - it was a scenario that he didn't think through sufficiently well. And he's a lot better trained than most of us.

This stuff always looks good in Hollywood movies as they do triple flips and grab their gun from its holster in 1/100 of a second. In real life few of us have the training or reflexes to pull anything off.

In South Africa, statistics show that more innocent people are injured by their own weapons, taken off them in robberies, than are criminals by victims who were armed. Bottom line - most criminals are handier with a weapon than are the innocent. They have an incentive to be - it's their livelihood. For us at best it's a hobby, at worst something that sits in a glove compartment doing bugger all.

Do yourself a favour. Take two unloaded weapons (for god's sake make sure they're unloaded!). And play a game. One of you be the robber, the other be the victim. Enact a fake robbery. The robber is only allowed to fire once the victim goes for his/her gun. See how often the robber's weapon drops the firing pin first, and how often the victim's does. Then change sides and play again. Ten times each way.

I played something like this when training for close quarters combat. The results aren't pretty. Unless you have the weapon in hand at all times, unholstering it is generally too difficult to pull off successfully. The person with the weapon in hand has an incredible advantage. Our key learning point was that a holstered weapon is bloody useless, and to make sure it's in hand at all times - but you'd look like an idiot if you tried that in real life, rather than where we did - a combat situation.

Finally, all these people HAVE guns. Why? because they too are part of the "well-regulated militia" who can go buy a weapon at Walmart.

Back to reciprocity. of course you ro I want a weapon. But do we want everyone else with equal access to a weapon? I'm cynical on that one.

Anyway enough already! My main point was and is that Nugent is an idiot. I'm not going to cinvince any of you, and vice versa, so it makes sense to leave things there.

Do take care of those things though. My grandfather shot himself cleaning his - he just got careless one day. It cost him the use of one hand.


Poor examples. In the first, he wasn't shot because he had a gun, he was shot because he had a badge. He was probably strategizing that after the holdup was over, he would use the gun to attampt to apprehend them. Too bad the lowlifes showed what they were made of. I hope during their next escapade they ended up dying a horrible death.

In the second case, the officer thought he was dealing with one criminal, when in fact there were three. Whether he had a gun was probably irrevelant - when he happened upon the scene, the heartless thugs would have just shot him. Heck, they shot an unarmed cashier, why not an unarmed customer?

The above speculation is moot, however, when it comes to me. If you rob me at gunpoint, or knifepoint, the moment you turn your head I will place a bullet in it.

[contender]

And he's a lot better trained than most of us.

I would not bet on this. As a shooting range owner, I see that most cops have to be made to come out and shoot, or they only come right before quals. This is not the case for all officers, but most.

If anyone wants to shoot we are about 30 minutes from Ginnie.

[rjack]

In South Africa, statistics show that more innocent people are injured by their own weapons, taken off them in robberies, than are criminals by victims who were armed.

And in America gun owners are far more likely to use them against family members or other persons known to them than random criminals. All good points Andrew, but there's no rational arguing with fear.

[defunct]

Finally, all these people HAVE guns. Why? because they too are part of the "well-regulated militia" who can go buy a weapon at Walmart.



Have you bothered to read the statistics on guns used in violent crimes and where they came from? They almost NEVER were gained in a legal manner.

If you think having a law against gun ownership and melting guns from the citizens down will disarm criminals, let's look at England for how well that has worked...

[defunct]

And in America gun owners are far more likely to use them against family members or other persons known to them than random criminals. All good points Andrew, but there's no rational arguing with fear.

Kind of a "twisted" statistic since gang on gang violence would be grouped in with a 7 year old finding a loaded gun and shooting a friend... :roll:

[Line Squirrel]

In South Africa, statistics show that more innocent people are injured by their own weapons, taken off them in robberies, than are criminals by victims who were armed.

And in America gun owners are far more likely to use them against family members or other persons known to them than random criminals. All good points Andrew, but there's no rational arguing with fear.



Why do you want to argue, your own words, and not debate. There is a difference.

Too many people get shot by someone they know. I don't deny this, they are the dumbasses that shouldn't own a gun in the first place but how many of those [the shooter] has already had a felony charge levied against them and own a gun illegally? I have no idea but there is something there that is short circuiting in their head and if they didn't have a gun they would use a knife, a baseball bat, fists or in the case of Marvin Gay a few years back during Thanksgiving dinner...a friggin' carving fork. Let's outlaw cutlery, then ropes...God knows there were enough slaves that got strung-up.
How about drunk drivers, I bet there are a hell of a lot more kids killed buy drunk driving parents than guns.

I don't see the connection between Andrews quote which has to do with innocent people being disarmed and their own weapon being used against them and your point being that the owner of said firearm was not disarmed but used it to shoot someone they were familiar with.

Let me reply to Andrews quote. The reason why so many people are shot and or killed by their own firearm is that they aren't committed. They keep a firearm for "protection" but it's a false sense of security because when the **** hits the fan most will just freeze up and piss their pajamas while the intruder disarms them.

**** EDITED I realized that if I did need to defend myself someday using deadly force that the text that was here could be twisted around and used in a court of law in an attempt to show intent. Too bad, it was a good bit of reading. ****

My goal, should my home be invaded was first, that I live through the situation with minimal damage to myself. You want to take this right of self preservation away from me. Second, that there*** EDITED****

If more gun owners were proficient in the use of their firearm and were as committed as they thought they were when they bought the thing ...well I think Andrews’ point would moot.

I think there are an awful lot of gunowners that purchase a firearm with home protection in mind but they are afraid of the thing. They buy it, bring it home and put it in a shoebox on the top shelf of their bedroom closet and never even look at it again untill a home intruder demands they surrender it...sorta sounds like what the libs are trying to do :roll:

BTW one thing that is getting lost in this whole disscussion is that going to the range is actually fun!

[rjack]

So...
You keep your weapons "at the ready" which is basically drawn? Ok maybe not, but even discounting that, you clearly need to keep them loaded if you're using them for protection right?

How many 8yo boys have shot their best friend with that "protection"? Wayyy too many. Yeah yeah those parents are morons, shouldn't own a guy etc. etc. Those morons are always the "other guy", just like the other drivers on the road are always the crazy ones.

If you unload it and store it locked, as even the NRA recommends, your "protection" is useless. Guns are no more a crime deterent than the death penalty. They both sound so effective, appeal to our emotions and "liberties", but neither really accomplishes their intended objectives.

[BgDadddy]

1. Guns are great. I don't care whether you like them or not, but don't bust on mine just because you are scared of them.

2. The only problem with the death penalty is that we don't use it enough and it takes wayyyyy too long to be carried out once the sentence is handed down.

This is my anti-home invasion system...

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h281/rick68fl/DSCF1549.jpg

[Line Squirrel]

So...
You keep your weapons "at the ready" which is basically drawn? Ok maybe not, but even discounting that, you clearly need to keep them loaded if you're using them for protection right?


I firmly believe that everyone first and foremost needs to be aware of their surroundings, which would go a long way in diffusing a huge majority of all crimes from petty theft to murder and everything in between. My first line of defense is my brain and it is always "at the ready" most people walk around with it up there rear. To answer the question directly, I do not walk around with my weapon drawn, that would be "brandishing" and that would be illegal. But yes, my firearms are loaded except when I'm cleaning them. Pretty damn useless otherwise.




How many 8yo boys have shot their best friend with that "protection"? Wayyy too many. Yeah yeah those parents are morons, shouldn't own a guy etc. etc. Those morons are always the "other guy", just like the other drivers on the road are always the crazy ones.

What???




If you unload it and store it locked, as even the NRA recommends, your "protection" is useless.

I agree, IMHO, Pretty much a CYA policy in a failed attempt to keep the "Scared Mothers of America" blood pressure down. However, if you have kids and guns in the house you do need to either lock them up or get rid of them [the guns...maybe the kids I dunno]. Kids will find anything you try to hide.



Guns are no more a crime deterent than the death penalty. They both sound so effective, appeal to our emotions and "liberties", but neither really accomplishes their intended objectives.

Really...Bundy, Gacey will never kill again. The major flaw in the system with regard to those two is it took too long to catch up with them.

Okay, I need to think about putting something together for dinner and get to bed early, ironically enough, I have a 100 yard centerfire match tomorrow.

Good shooting everybody :wink:

[FW]

This is my anti-home invasion system...

It is not a good idea to advertise what you have to steal on the internet!

[BgDadddy]

I agree... fortunately none of y'all know where I live... :-D

Besides... all of them together don't add up to as much as one of y'alls scooters or rebreathers. That's the house I would go to (probably Andrews's or Rjacks actually... I'd feel much safer there. ;-)

Rick

[DeWayne]

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.



It is illegal to carry in Chicago. I wonder if it would've happened if it weren't.

Hey Jordan. How's tne new job?

Here are two examples of where carrying didn't help stop criminals from carrying, AND didn't help the professionals carrying:

http://www.policestress.org/think.htm

To me, that reads more like two examples of off-duty officers being killed because they acted without fully evaluating the situation first.

[FW]

I agree... fortunately none of y'all know where I live... :-D

Besides... all of them together don't add up to as much as one of y'alls scooters or rebreathers. That's the house I would go to (probably Andrews's or Rjacks actually... I'd feel much safer there. ;-)

Rick
Hmmm... Your name is Rick, and you live in Hudson, FL. It isn't that big ... :twisted:

As for the cost of my rebreather, and scooter, together they cost me less than $600 :-D

[defunct]

How many 8yo boys have shot their best friend with that "protection"?


Why don't you post that statistic and then also post the rest of the numbers for the cause of death in children. You will see fighting gun owners is a "small" battle on saving kids. If you spent as much time making alcohol illegal as you do guns, you might actually have a direct effect on MANY kids lives...



If you unload it and store it locked, as even the NRA recommends, your "protection" is useless. Guns are no more a crime deterent than the death penalty. They both sound so effective, appeal to our emotions and "liberties", but neither really accomplishes their intended objectives.

Actually, I personally do NOT store my home protection weapons unloaded and locked. I agree that it would make them a useless weapon for home protection. Obviously, the guns I do store locked and unloaded still make great sporting/hunting guns... An activity I enjoy and should be free to participate in.

BTW, do me a favor... go to Walmart and buy a 12ga pump shotgun. Any brand will do. DO NOT LOAD IT.

Then go stand by your front door. Have your wife cycle the action of the shotgun. Tell me that is not a deterrent...

You have a RIGHT to NOT own a gun. I would NEVER take that right from you.

Please show your support for removing my freedoms by posting this sticker on your front door.

http://www.alphadogweb.com/firearms/images/gunfree.gif

[contender]

As for the cost of my rebreather, and scooter, together they cost me less than $600 :-D

Got any more good deals like that?

[aainslie]

Well, this has been fun...

but we strayed off topic.

What happened to the "Nugent is a dumbass" debate? :)

[BgDadddy]

Moved out of Hudson to a surrounding city a year ago... one person on this board knows where I live... hehehe

I'll give you $1k for them, sight unseen... that's about an 80% profit. Wacha think?

R





I agree... fortunately none of y'all know where I live... :-D

Besides... all of them together don't add up to as much as one of y'alls scooters or rebreathers. That's the house I would go to (probably Andrews's or Rjacks actually... I'd feel much safer there. ;-)

Rick
Hmmm... Your name is Rick, and you live in Hudson, FL. It isn't that big ... :twisted:

As for the cost of my rebreather, and scooter, together they cost me less than $600 :-D

[Daedalus]

Well, this has been fun...

but we strayed off topic.

On the internet?!?!?! I don't believe it.

PS Guns don't kill people, rebreathers kill people.

that's about an 80% profit.

Actually, that would be a 66.7% profit. So I guess I'm now the Math Cop, too.

[aainslie]

that's about an 80% profit.

Actually, that would be a 66.7% profit. So I guess I'm now the Math Cop, too.

Well... he says less than $600, so I suppose strictly speaking the proft would be >66.7%...

Seriously, how the hell did you get a rebreather and scooter for $600?

Ah - I know. You joined the well-regulated militia at Walmart, took your new weapon over to an ex-fellow diver's house, regulated him and took the scooter and rebreather. All fur under $600! Entrepreneurship at its best!

:)

[Cave Ranger]

1. Guns are great. I don't care whether you like them or not, but don't bust on mine just because you are scared of them.

2. The only problem with the death penalty is that we don't use it enough and it takes wayyyyy too long to be carried out once the sentence is handed down.

This is my anti-home invasion system...

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h281/rick68fl/DSCF1549.jpg

Hey Rick.

Is that a Kel-Tec pistol on the far right? (No pun intended)
I have a Glock also but I'm a firm believer that the most effective firearm is the one you have on you.
I'm too skinny to conceal even a Glock 19 without wearing a heavy jacket all the time. Since it's Florida and HOT I've found that the Kel-Tec P-32 with a 10 round clip is perfect for concealed carry.
It may be under powered but it hits harder than my fists or a baseball bat.
As for you anti-gun people. Be my guest. Don't own one. I know that not doing so elevates your sense of humanity and ups your status on the self-rightious higher evolutionary scale. You are true scholars amongst we the unwashed neanderthals. Keep up the great work. Pray that you made the right choice. That's what it should be though, a choice.
As for me? I didn't create natural selection. I just refuse to ever be the prey animal. Welcome to the jungle baby!!

[BgDadddy]

Yeah, it's a Kel-Tec P3AT, .380

It's the perfect pocket pistol... I can carry it no matter what I'm wearing, and it's got almost the power of a 9mm (nasty little bugger to shoot though!)

[FW]

Since this is the Fill Station, hijacking is normal :twisted:

If anyone is interested in my $500 rebreather, PM me, and I will give you access to the DIY rebreather forum.

If anyone wants a scooter for under $100, I will sell it to them as-is, but it needs a "motorectomy", or I will trade even for a running SS :-)

[stairman]

If guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns .Law abiding citizens dont buy illeagal drugs but for a price (black market) they can be easilly obtained.Guns will be no different and thugs will be more brazen than ever to an unarmed public.

[mfascuba]

This all reminds me.....my CCW permit renews next year. Must find out how to do so.....since I was a charter, so-to-speak, when it became law in Ohio.

Now that I am debt free, it's time to look at adding to my arsenal. Thoughts on an automatic, small, handgun for a female? I'm looking at the Sig Sauer 9mm....any other suggestions? I don't like the feel of a Glock...so don't suggest that one. I currently have a Taurus .38 snub revolver, but would like something new. One for the car/purse, one for the bedroom.

Check out the Springfield Armory model 1911, in the Champion flavor. There are a couple that are lighter, and the .45ACP is a "bad guy stopper" without a doubt. The other caliber to look at is .40S&W, it's mainstream and has more energy than the 9mm. Make the biggest hole you can, and put the most energy on target as you can.

Mark

[mfascuba]

This is a great country - people have freedom of religion, and freedom of opinion on gun control. The most ironic thing about the folks that are aethiest and anti-gun is that when an intruder breaks into their house, the first thing they do is call someone with a gun to come help them, and then pray to God that they get there before the intruder does them harm.


Mark

[roakey]

Thoughts on an automatic, small, handgun for a female?
Most anything but a Glock you pay a weight penalty. One of the best fitting and pointing guns I've ever picked up is an EAA Witness steel compact, which is a CZ clone. You can carry it cocked and locked, or hammer down, first shot double action or hammer down and locked for that matter (why, I don't know :)). The Witness now comes in a polymer frame, but I don't have any direct experience with it.

You're not going to get a Kimber fit and finish with an EAA, but they always go bang when you pull the trigger.

I know a lot of people that like the Khar (speling?) too, but I don't have direct experience. If it's the trigger that you don't like about the Glock, don't bother looking at the Khar, it's the same design.

Roak

[aainslie]

This is a great country - people have freedom of religion, and freedom of opinion on gun control. The most ironic thing about the folks that are aethiest and anti-gun is that when an intruder breaks into their house, the first thing they do is call someone with a gun to come help them, and then pray to God that they get there before the intruder does them harm.


Mark

I think I covered the former point pretty thoroughly earlier. The latter... huh, I wouldn't even know how to form a prayer in my head. It's about as likely as you having one answered.

[Jordan]

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.



It is illegal to carry in Chicago. I wonder if it would've happened if it weren't.

Hey Jordan. How's tne new job?

Here are two examples of where carrying didn't help stop criminals from carrying, AND didn't help the professionals carrying:

http://www.policestress.org/think.htm

Andrew,

Your two stories do nothing to argue your percieved point. I'm not saying you have lied in any way here Andrew, but your beating around the bush just reminds me of a thread I recently read on The High Road. It was by "cnorman18" and reads:

The strongest pro-gun argument, and the hardest question for antis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand that anti-gunners sometimes lurk here in hopes of finding material to support their "cause". I rather suspect that this thread won't be getting copied for that reason.

If any anti-gunners are reading this--here's a simple, straightforward question: Why do you find it necessary and even praiseworthy to LIE so much?

Perhaps the most important key to judging the rightness of a cause is observing whether or not its adherents tell the truth. Simply put, if you have to lie to defend your cause, there must be something wrong with it. And THAT, to me, is by far the most effective and telling argument against you anti-gunners. If your cause is so righteous, why can't you promote it without a consistent pattern of deliberate distortions and outright lies?

Your anti-gun organizations, like Handgun Control, Inc., publish statistics on the enormous number of children killed by handguns. The public reacts with horror, as well they should--IF those numbers were accurate. If one examines them, though, one finds that you define a "child" as anyone under the age of 25; the numbers include, e.g., the deaths of two 20+ year-old drug dealers in a gang shootout; they include the death of a 24-year-old murder suspect shot by a police SHOTGUN (not a handgun); they include the suicide of a 19-year-old after he committed murder; they include the deaths of armed robbers who were shot by store owners defending themselves; and on and on. You know that these statistics are deceptive, yet you continue to present them as meaningful. Why?

You publish statistics on the number of "children" killed in handgun "accidents", claiming that this happens daily and that "hundreds of thousands" of children die from this cause every year; but, again, examine those numbers and one will find that they include "children" in their 20s and even "accidents" that are deliberate shootings and suicides. The actual number of children under 10 who are killed in genuine accidents in any given year is less than 15, and that has been true for decades--and those accidents almost invariably involve a loaded handgun left lying around by an irresponsible adult, often a criminal drug dealer or the like. You know all this, but deliberately withhold this information. Why?

You routinely ignore, ridicule, or "debunk"--without even an attempt to produce any actual evidence--statistics that show that guns in the hands of legally armed citizens prevent more crimes than are committed by armed criminals. You DO pay attention to reports of civilian self-defense, though; those reports are routinely included in your tallies of "handgun deaths". You know this is dishonest, but you continue to do it. Why?

You deliberately blur the distinctions between semi- and full-automatic weapons and between military and civilian weapons; you repeatedly imply that full-auto "machine guns" are available for casual, unregulated purchase. You are not ignorant or "confused" on this matter. If one goes to your websites, one will see you speak openly about exploiting the ignorance and confusion of the public about guns, and in so many words. You are conducting a well-planned and carefully conducted disinformation campaign worthy of the KGB. Why?

And the major media are in your pockets. I have personally seen stories (plural) about semi-automatic weapons on the major broadcast networks that were accompanied by video of NFA-regulated Class III weapons in full-auto fire--and seen those same stories REPEATED, without comment, correction or alteration, AFTER the network had been informed of the inaccurate and deceptive nature of the pieces. Why?

In the same way, falsified statistics from HCI and their ilk are slavishly parroted by the networks and big-city papers, while the countering facts and genuine, accurate statistics from the pro-gun side remain invisible. Why?

For instance: What about the fact that armed citizens frequently STOP or PREVENT crimes? The LOCAL media (depending on where one lives) will sometimes carry stories of civilians defending themselves and their families with legally-owned weapons; here in Dallas, such stories appear a couple of times every week. Nationwide, they must happen hundreds of times every day. But one will NEVER see such a story make the national news. That is a set policy that appears to be carved in stone. You know it happens--but you won't talk about it. Ever. Why?

(A note to pro-gunners on countering falsehoods and distortions in the media: By all means, write and email the major papers and networks with your objections and corrections--they need to know we're awake and watching out here--but don't expect it to do any good. You will inevitably be dismissed as a benighted redneck. Better to address your LOCAL media. They're much more likely to respond. When you see a biased story on TV, write the network--but write the local station, too. THEY are ultimately responsible for what goes out under their call letters. If the reporting is especially bad, it could be fun to write their competition, too. It might be hard for an editor to resist a story on how a rival station or paper aired or published an egregious falsehood...)

It seems to me that the strongest single argument we gunowners have in this fight is that simple question: If your cause is so righteous and morally correct, why do you have to lie so much? Why, in fact, is your "case" made up almost ENTIRELY of lies, deliberate distortions, and omissions of fact? Can you not defend your positions by simply telling the truth? We gunners do that all the time. Why can't you?

I'd like to see that question aired more publicly and much more often. I'd like to see someone--anyone--on the anti-gun side try to answer it.

And answer it without lying.

Well? Can you? And if not--

WHY?

[Gibby]

Larry the cable guy said it -
Gun don't kill people, husbands that come home early do.


Here is my 'a plinker for any occasion' collection.


http://www.zeagleexpress.com/coll.jpg

Remington 742 3006

Desert Eagle Mark VII
Smith and Wesson SW9GVE 9mm
Ruger P97DC .45 ACP

Ruger GP100 .357mag
Ruger SP101 3" .357mag


My favorite to pull at the range is the 45 but I would prefer the D.E. if the lead didn't cost so much. The SP101 is my carry and it's a stinger. My wife loves the GP100 357 at the range and it serves as the home invader devastator with 165 grain 357 +p+ rounds.


Dive Safe Shoot safe
~G

[OFG-1]

Well, this has been fun...

but we strayed off topic.

What happened to the "Nugent is a dumbass" debate? :)

Nugent hasn't been worth a crap since the AmboyDukes. And don't get me started on Boz Skaggs, he should have stuck with Steve Miller. And what the hell happened to Al Kooper? Do you think he has any guns?
I bet Robby Kreiger has several. And Springsteen. I bet the Boss has a bunch of guns. He cant sing worth a **** anymore, but I bet he can shoot.
And Les Brown. I bet he has guns to keep that band together. And Father Flannigan. A Luger would have kept those boys straight. And Mother Teresa could have used a gun to shoot those lepers before their faces fell off, I mean who wants to see that? And Dick Cheney, he even shoots his friends. But back on thread, shoot Nugent and get it over with.

[FW]

John, Thanks for getting the thread back on "topic" :-D

Gibby, Check my post about advertising to thieves.

[Gibby]

Good point FW

Notice for anybody planning on going after my stash. Please put a letter in your front shirt pocket enclosed in a zip-loc bag with a list of your next of kin. After finding a way to walk past the dog, defeating the alarm and entering the only feasible entrance you will notice a blue tarp. Do not be alarmed. This is only to protect my recently cleaned carpets. If anybody is home you don't need tor read any further. Those still here will need to run power to their plasma cutter from the garage.

:smt067

[FW]

Please put a letter in your front shirt pocket enclosed in a zip-loc bag with a list of your next of kin.
What good will the ziplock bag do, if it has a .45 hole in it?

[aainslie]

Hey Jordan,

Not much to say on that one. I don't really take a typical approach to being anti-gun. My view is that of the economist. One interesting area of study ineconomics is game theory. It's now widely used in miltary academies to plan strategies inter alia. And a key aspect is to think of the other side. That's why I keep talking about reciprocity in my posts.

I agree that anti gun lobbies lie. But if you think pro-gun lobbyists, fed money by the gun industry don't lie just as much, you're very naive.

I grew u0p around guns. A lot. We regularly carried them while walking through the bush (a very appropriate place for them btw, and one hwere I have no problem carrying one), from when I was 13 onwards. I know my way around a gun.

I just have a very different view to most of you. I beleive we'd be better off if no-one had guns. Because as much as I see the advantage of carrying one, I see a bigger disadvantage of the other person carrying.

I also understand that the cat's out the bag. You can't reasonably get those weapons off the street now they're out there.

But it's not a pretty situation.

Finally, I will admit that what I truly hate is the worship of guns. These are not pretty things. They are not toys. They have a very serious, very sad use. And should be treated with immense respect.

[Gibby]

Another good point.

Put the note in your shoe.

I was going to say back pants pocket . . .

The shoe would be better for the guy who has to dig it out.

~G

[JDostal]

Quite the interesting discussion.

I do love the fact that we can own and use them in this country with minimal troubles. Always interesting to hear other peoples opinions on the topic too.

I lean towards the guns as adult toys argument. I like shooting, it's a fun and relaxing. Always look forward to the end of Halloween when I can take all our pumpkins out to my land and mince them up :)

[mfascuba]

This is a great country - people have freedom of religion, and freedom of opinion on gun control. The most ironic thing about the folks that are aethiest and anti-gun is that when an intruder breaks into their house, the first thing they do is call someone with a gun to come help them, and then pray to God that they get there before the intruder does them harm.


Mark

I think I covered the former point pretty thoroughly earlier. The latter... huh, I wouldn't even know how to form a prayer in my head. It's about as likely as you having one answered.

Point taken - Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I hate you, or that I think you're stupid. I'm as easygoing a person as you'll run into, and I respect that our opinions differ. Reading your posts I have a good deal of respect for you, as it's obvious that you have reached your opinion yourself instead of having it baked into your head from birth by some left wing crazies. The fact that you lived in a place where you had to carry, served in the military and then decided (based on your observations of society) that you didn't want to have anything to do with firearms anymore speaks volumes.

Now if you use the wrong length hose on your primary, we'll have a real disagreement... Them's fightin words!!

Peace,

Mark

[jmaddox]

This one caught my eye. save up!
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24

[mfascuba]

This one caught my eye. save up!
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24

I had one of these http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=8 but my wife "commandeered" it for her purse. Now I've got one of these http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=20 , a little heavier but easy to conceal using one of these http://www.smartcarry.com/scinvi.htm

[aainslie]

Now if you use the wrong length hose on your primary, we'll have a real disagreement... Them's fightin words!!

Peace,

Mark

I'm with you there, Mark. It's good when we can still debate with civility.

But you're not going to like the answer to that one. Most of the time I dive with a 15" hose and a 40" hose. Sidemount solo will do that to you!

:)

OFG, Ive got to sit down and buy you a beer one night. Anarchy makes for such good drinking companions...

[BgDadddy]

I bought a Smart Carry a few years ago... After trying it a couple of times it has graduated to my junk drawer.

True, you can keep a pretty good size gun down there, but I'm not a big fan of having a loaded pistol (and none of mine have safetys) bouncing around down around my boys... A speedy draw is also dang near impossible.

Stick with the KelTec in your pocket if you're having trouble concealing.

Rick





This one caught my eye. save up!
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24

I had one of these http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=8 but my wife "commandeered" it for her purse. Now I've got one of these http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=20 , a little heavier but easy to conceal using one of these http://www.smartcarry.com/scinvi.htm

[Alan Garrett]

Seriously? Nugent, the poster boy for eloquent rhetoric?

Let's look at two websites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

It doesn't take much to see the outlier. The US is the only wealthy country where you stand a good chance of being shot - and the only wealthy country where weapons are easily available.

I've lived in South Africa and Zimbabwe. They're not pretty places to live in terms of personal safety.This "defence" idea is the stupidest piece of crap that I've ever heard. It made sense back in the 18th and 19th century, but seriously... going to Telford on a Sunday before the ban and realizing that you were giving both yourself and those morons the "right to bear arms" - that's a good thing how?

Look around you next time you're in a redneck bar - and realize the rather obvious problem with the reciprocity of this little "defence" arrangement.

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.

Sorry about the vent. But seriously, that's the dumbest amendment we have. The only reason I feel it has any place in law is because there are so many others that it would be sad to contest - and opening up this one would bring others into dispute.

Like, say, the right to free speech.
Got robbed in Chicago, huh? Well, several years ago someone tried to rob me in Chicago too. The operative word here is "tried". You see, the would-be robber made a critical error in the victim selection process by trying to rob someone who was ARMED! I prevented the robbery (or worse) of myself and my wife by drawing my PISTOL, pointing it in his FACE, and commanding him to LEAVE! Chicago has some of the most restrictive gun laws of all America's cities and it's also one of the most dangerous. Same goes for D.C., LA, NYC, and several more outstanding examples. Funny how they have so many more problems with violent crime than we do here in places where it is legal to protect ones' self. And BTW, you're right about one thing, it would be a mistake to go about meddling with the second ammendment. It's what puts the TEETH in the remainder of them! If you seriously believe that the root cause of social violence is the existence of weapons, you have either been mislead or have refused to examine the issue in any depth. Weapons are no more the cause of violent crime than matches are the cause of arson. The bottom line is that there really are some BAD people out there, and they will continue to do BAD things until our society stops tolerating them, making excuses for them, or until someone personally intervenes and stops them. You do what you want, but a growing number of us are deciding NOT to be victims and instead make our safety and that of our loved one's our own PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Try it, you might actually prefer not being at some scumbag's mercy. Sorry, you don't get your money back from the first time you got robbed though. It's already been spent on crack and malt liquor.

[Cave Ranger]

I bought one too but once I put it on (as suggested by the manufacturer) around my front groinal area I realized that it did in fact as advertised offer a great amount of support and protection to the old frank and beans. Unfortunately.........or fortunately :-D for me doing so left no room to conceal anything larger than .22 short zip gun.
Back to the old drawing board I suppose. :smt082


I bought a Smart Carry a few years ago... After trying it a couple of times it has graduated to my junk drawer.

True, you can keep a pretty good size gun down there, but I'm not a big fan of having a loaded pistol (and none of mine have safetys) bouncing around down around my boys... A speedy draw is also dang near impossible.

Stick with the KelTec in your pocket if you're having trouble concealing.

Rick





This one caught my eye. save up!
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=24

I had one of these http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=8 but my wife "commandeered" it for her purse. Now I've got one of these http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=20 , a little heavier but easy to conceal using one of these http://www.smartcarry.com/scinvi.htm

[aainslie]

Got robbed in Chicago, huh? Well, several years ago someone tried to rob me in Chicago too. The operative word here is "tried". You see, the would-be robber made a critical error in the victim selection process by trying to rob someone who was ARMED! I prevented the robbery (or worse) of myself and my wife by drawing my PISTOL, pointing it in his FACE, and commanding him to LEAVE!

Did he have a weapon drawn at the time? And what made you completely certain that he didn't have an armed accomplice nearby?

If he did, frankly I think you're an idiot. (sorry to be blunt!) I don't care if you get shot, but why would you risk your wife's life? You have no idea what that person's ability is with the weapon.

Sorry to be blunt, but pulling a weapon on someone who's holding a gun is VERY high risk. You'd better be practicing daily. You'd better be against a wall with line of sight to every possible place an accomplice could be standing. And you're nuts to risk your family in this way.

This is one of the problems I have. Everyone thinks they're a commando. Few of us actually have the skills.

[Alan Garrett]

I didn't CARE if he had a gun, or an armed accomplice. The SOB tried to rob us (or worse) while we were in our sleeper compartment and I wasn't going to allow him to do that without a fight. PERIOD. Besides, what kind of "man" refuses to protect his wife from an attacking criminal? I'm no "commando", but I am ex-law enforcement and I have encountered scumbags like that on many occasions, and I have seen the aftermath of what they can do to people when they encounter helpless victims. What do they do? THEY DO WHATEVER THE $%@& THEY WANT TO DO! If they just want money, they just take your money. If they want everything, they take EVERYTHING. Who's going to stop them? Not the cops. We almost ALWAYS arrived too late to do the victims any real good, and da#n sure not the emasculated coward lying on the floor watching his wife get raped! I wish I had a dollar for every robbery victim who said "I gave him all my money and he raped me anyway!" I'm NOT being dramatic. It happens. A lot. But guess what? It didn't happen to us because I stood my ground and prevented it, and I never even had to fire a shot. No, I'm not an "idiot". I'm a man who loves his family enough to fight for them, at whatever cost. What nerve to call a man an idiot because he placed himself in harm's way between a loved one and a criminal! If you honestly have to ask what would move a man to do that, I seriously doubt you'd understand the answer, but it has a lot to do with knowing there are other things in this life more important than yourself. I can't believe I allowed myself to get dragged into this pointless argument. You sir may have the last word. Our arguments will either stand or fall based on the truths that do or do not bear them out. The Mod's are probably very unhappy with me by now.

[defunct]

I find it amusing that a thread about guns gets more traffic/posts then threads about cavediving here... :-D

Ted Nugent is nothing compared to Chuck Norris...

Photo deleted :blackbar I personally didn't find it offensive but I'm certain many would have.

*EDIT*

SERIOUSLY? A photo of Chuck Norris is offensive??? OMG.... I give...

To those that can handle "offensive" images... here is the link to the image... Do NOT click on it if guns and an image of Chuck Norris would offend you!!!!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c219/talk2action/norris1.png

[Major Restriction]

Well said Alan. I see nothing improper, or idiotic with your behavior. Now, if you had done nothing to defend yourself, and allowed you and/or your wife to be killed by a thug, well, THAT would have been idiotic.

You are in good company, however. Dr. Ainslie also called the (sic) states of FL and TX idiots, as well as all those who frequent(ed) Telford. Oh well. I like FL and TX. Perhaps that makes me an idiot.

Calling someone an idiot over the Internet is much more fun (and easy) than calling the same to their face (it seems). :)


I didn't CARE if he had a gun, or an armed accomplice. The SOB tried to rob us (or worse) while we were in our sleeper compartment and I wasn't going to allow him to do that without a fight. PERIOD. Besides, what kind of "man" refuses to protect his wife from an attacking criminal? I'm no "commando", but I am ex-law enforcement and I have encountered scumbags like that on many occasions, and I have seen the aftermath of what they can do to people when they encounter helpless victims. What do they do? THEY DO WHATEVER THE $%@& THEY WANT TO DO! If they just want money, they just take your money. If they want everything, they take EVERYTHING. Who's going to stop them? Not the cops. We almost ALWAYS arrived too late to do the victims any real good, and da#n sure not the emasculated coward lying on the floor watching his wife get raped! I wish I had a dollar for every robbery victim who said "I gave him all my money and he raped me anyway!" I'm NOT being dramatic. It happens. A lot. But guess what? It didn't happen to us because I stood my ground and prevented it, and I never even had to fire a shot. No, I'm not an "idiot". I'm a man who loves his family enough to fight for them, at whatever cost. What nerve to call a man an idiot because he placed himself in harm's way between a loved one and a criminal! If you honestly have to ask what would move a man to do that, I seriously doubt you'd understand the answer, but it has a lot to do with knowing there are other things in this life more important than yourself. I can't believe I allowed myself to get dragged into this pointless argument. You sir may have the last word. Our arguments will either stand or fall based on the truths that do or do not bear them out. The Mod's are probably very unhappy with me by now.

[aainslie]

Anyone who knows me knows I'm willing to have this sort of debate face to face.

It seems you WEREN'T an idiot by my description, as you were in an enclosed space and the guy wasn't armed. Seems a reasonable place to do it (ignoring the fact that you were a bad boy for carryng in Illinois). You didn't seem to be risking your wife in that scenario.

[FW]

Alright guys, let's avoid calling one another names. You can discuss the *ISSUE*, but not someone else's reasons (or reasoning).

If this thread gets out of hand, it will be locked, or removed.

I have to agree with defunct, about this thread getting more attention than cave diving :-D

[Gibby]

I have to agree with defunct, about this thread getting more attention than cave diving :-D

Well it has been a bit slow lately. Its good to get the blood flowing every now and then. Even if it is to debate the religion or politics.

This thread will get me diving.
I think I'm going to plan a day to drop a nice deer in the A.M. Dress and put him on ice. Then strap on some tanks and dive. Chaz would be good but I'm no archer. Anybody know where a good place that is open to rifles right now. I'm a novice hunter.

With that said.
How would somebody go about explaining to a random rape victim or date rape victim for that matter, their view that violet crime would stop if we took guns away from the average guy? Also how does one explain the incredible murder rate in D.C. when until recently you could not own a hand gun?

[OFG-1]

SERIOUSLY? A photo of Chuck Norris is offensive??? OMG.... I give...


YES, I am offended by any image of Chuck Norris. Everyone knows that until Bill "Superfoot" Wallace retired (undefeated), Norris wasn't squat.

[Line Squirrel]

SERIOUSLY? A photo of Chuck Norris is offensive??? OMG.... I give...


PM sent

[Gibby]

I found it.

Penn and Teller sum all this up pretty well.

http://splodetv.com/bullshit-gun-laws-part-3

[oldguy]

Keep your bleeding heart, pusswhack liberal stupidity. It is for the masses, i.e. brainwashing, mind control, group think, dummying down so the bureaucracy can control, control, control.

I will keep my second amendment, my guns, my right to think for myself.

I have no premeditated intention of killing another human being. I have premeditated intent to do whatever required to protect myself and my family.

So don't f#@% up and come around with rape, theft, burglary, murder on your mind and test my fortitude.

[aainslie]

I love a well-reasoned argument. Thanks for reaffirming my belief in mankind. Nicely argued.

I'll go buy a gun this afternoon. I didn't know that it's needed for me to be able to think for myself, but now that you've straightened me out... well, I just have to have one!


Keep your bleeding heart, pusswhack liberal stupidity. It is for the masses, i.e. brainwashing, mind control, group think, dummying down so the bureaucracy can control, control, control.

I will keep my second amendment, my guns, my right to think for myself.

I have no premeditated intention of killing another human being. I have premeditated intent to do whatever required to protect myself and my family.

So don't f#@% up and come around with rape, theft, burglary, murder on your mind and test my fortitude.

[Cave Ranger]

I don't think Old Guy was refering to any particular person....well he didn't name any names at least.
I lost my belief in mankind after being a pollyanna liberal thinker up until the time I was maybe 30. That's when I realized that there are a lot of very bad people in this world and all the peace, love, and understanding you can muster will get you nowhere but bent over and grabbing your ankles like Ned Beatty in Deliverance.
I think all any of us "gun nuts" are asking is that the John Lennon/Ghandi types leave us alone and not deny us the right to carry if we want to but I suspect that once Hillary ends up as our next President there will be a push in that direction, and law abiding citizen gun owners will again be vilified and turned into criminals.
I also think it's quite telling that some of the same "Civil Libertarian" groups who claim to love freedom and who are so critical of the Dept of Homeland Security and consider them a threat to the constitution and individual freedom have no problem with the idea of the U.S. government going door to door and confiscating the private property of every day but "gun owning" Americans.
It's all about freedom Andrew. You and most everyone else are free to not own or carry a gun and I respect that choice and wouldn't do anything to force any of you to do either.
But can you honestly say that if you had the power to that you wouldn't deny me my freedom to make the opposite choice?

[aainslie]

OK. One more time.

a) I'm not really into anyone's politics. There's a lot about Hillary I don't like. For as long as Democrats think socialism is a good idea, and republicans confuse religion with politics, I'm going to have a problem voting for either.

b) It's not your having a gun that I have a problem with. It's the ease with which any moron can buy one that I have a problem with. Since the basis in the constitution is a "well-ordered militia", I'd be fine with the whole weapon idea if only the process was "well-ordered". It's a bloody shambles, with gun companies being the main beneficiaries.

I DO find it incredibly funny that you need to have a gun to think for yourself. Makes you wonder how the hell Socrates coped without one...

(4 pages and climbing... :) )

[oldguy]

Thank you Cave Ranger for explaining my post to Andrew. Guns are not the single issue here. The liberal movement is for taking away individual rights. The belief is that we cannot raise our families, operate successful businesses, make moral decisions without government intervention. We will be regulated until the adventurous, entreprenural, forward-thinking pioneers are non-existent. And to Andrew, I was able to think for myself long before I was old enough to buy a gun. You can fool yourself into believing that you are safe but unfortunately there are those out there who are intent on hurting others and/or relieving them of their possessions. As a Baptist minister who was quoted in a gun control article in our local newsapaper said, "If someone is mean enough to break into my home, knowing that there may be someone there, that individual is probably going to do me harm. I am not going to meet that individual with the Holy Bible in my hand." Enough said.

[Cave Ranger]

No personal offense to you pastor but I think a fair argument could be made that the religious right wing (which would include the Baptists) in this country is also pretty active in the effort to deny people "individual rights"
Having sat through hundreds of Baptist sermons throughout my life it would seem to me that many of the members of your sect would like nothing more than to see a religious theocratic government take power and implement Old Testament law here in the United States.
"True" old testament law has no place in a free democratic society any more than Islamic Sharia law does.
In a free society you cannot in good faith stand firm on all of the tenents of the 2nd amendment of the constitution while working to weaken the 1st ammendment. Groups like the ACLU do the opposite.
Too many religious activists are working to give the government more control over what people can say, write, paint, draw, sing, think, talk about, or do in the privacy of their own homes. Plenty of leftist do gooders are working to do the same exact thing on a different scale and for different reasons.
The same government that can make it a crime to look at a Hustler magazine, drink alcohol, smoke pot, have an abortion, or dictate what we can watch or read is the same government that can label your next sermon against homosexuality as hate speach, kick in your door and confiscate your guns and your bible and maybe take you to to jail. Think about that for a minute.
I'm with Andrew on the Republicans vs Democrats thing. They are all against the freedom of the people and the true tenants of the constitution of the United States. It's all about votes, taxation, and control. I'm very much looking forward to the 2nd American Revolution and for that to happen the "People" need to be armed. Better get your ammo now before the Chinese start buying up all the lead.



Thank you Cave Ranger for explaining my post to Andrew. Guns are not the single issue here. The liberal movement is for taking away individual rights. The belief is that we cannot raise our families, operate successful businesses, make moral decisions without government intervention. We will be regulated until the adventurous, entreprenural, forward-thinking pioneers are non-existent. And to Andrew, I was able to think for myself long before I was old enough to buy a gun. You can fool yourself into believing that you are safe but unfortunately there are those out there who are intent on hurting others and/or relieving them of their possessions. As a Baptist minister who was quoted in a gun control article in our local newsapaper said, "If someone is mean enough to break into my home, knowing that there may be someone there, that individual is probably going to do me harm. I am not going to meet that individual with the Holy Bible in my hand." Enough said.

[aquanut...]

Andrew,

The last time I checked the wait for a firearm was 30 days in SC unless you have a concealed weapons permit. With a CWP it's cash and carry. To get a CWP you have to take an eight hour class and they do a detailed background check on you. If everything comes up clean and you pass the class, you are issued the permit in 90 days. Is this not long enough? What would you like to see?

[oldguy]

Caveranger,
Man you are all over the place with this. You speak against Andrew's position in my defense and now you are down on my response to Andrew. Read my post again SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY. I am NEITHER a minister or Baptist. I was quoting the Baptist minister about his position on gun control. He clearly states that he would not hesitate to use a gun to protect his home and family. All that other crap you brought into this about the religious right wing and Old Testament law has absolutely nothing to do with me and my right to bear arms. Let's stick to the topic.
;-)

[aainslie]

A 30 day wait does not a well-ordered militia make.

Damn, these gun companies are smart! I need to buy some S&W stock. Their lobbyists make the tobacco crowd look like amateurs! "It's good for your throat/protection, I swear"...



Andrew,

The last time I checked the wait for a firearm was 30 days in SC unless you have a concealed weapons permit. With a CWP it's cash and carry. To get a CWP you have to take an eight hour class and they do a detailed background check on you. If everything comes up clean and you pass the class, you are issued the permit in 90 days. Is this not long enough? What would you like to see?

[Line Squirrel]

Let's stick to the topic.
;-)

The topic was Ted Nugent...sorry, I couldn't resist :roll:

[oldguy]

Yeah mac, you are right. It is all Ted's fault for starting this :-D

[Daedalus]

A 30 day wait does not a well-ordered militia make.

Well, the exact verbiage is "well regulated militia" with the phrase "regulated" as used in the time to mean "practiced" or "skilled". You can look to the Federalist Papers and other sources such as memoirs etc. to find that the intent of the founders of the country was for a decentralized profusion of arms among the populace to provide an effective basis for resistance to tyranny or invasion . Interestingly, that would mean that the firearms most protected under the Second Amendment would be military type weapons such as the ones heavily restricted today.

[Cave Ranger]

Caveranger,
Man you are all over the place with this. You speak against Andrew's position in my defense and now you are down on my response to Andrew. Read my post again SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY. I am NEITHER a minister or Baptist. I was quoting the Baptist minister about his position on gun control. He clearly states that he would not hesitate to use a gun to protect his home and family. All that other crap you brought into this about the religious right wing and Old Testament law has absolutely nothing to do with me and my right to bear arms. Let's stick to the topic.
;-)

My bad Old Guy!! I really shouldn't post while wearing my "beer goggles".
That being said I was just trying to point out the inconsistancies of all of the groups who nit pick the constitution to suit their own agenda.
I guess the Baptist minister you mentioned doesn't abide by the "turn the other cheek" verse. :smt017
Well any way. I'm sorry about that. I enjoy a good rant every now and again. Peace!!

[oldguy]

No prob, bro. I ocassionally (at least once a week) slip on a pair of goggles myself but at my age it's usually wine (higher alcohol content, ya know). You are right about the various interpretations of the constitution. Everybody's got an agenda and if you cannot support it as the strict constructionists who wrote the document, you bend it 40 directions to further your cause.

[aainslie]

A 30 day wait does not a well-ordered militia make.

Well, the exact verbiage is "well regulated militia" with the phrase "regulated" as used in the time to mean "practiced" or "skilled". You can look to the Federalist Papers and other sources such as memoirs etc. to find that the intent of the founders of the country was for a decentralized profusion of arms among the populace to provide an effective basis for resistance to tyranny or invasion . Interestingly, that would mean that the firearms most protected under the Second Amendment would be military type weapons such as the ones heavily restricted today.

My bad

A 30 day wait does not a well-regulated militia make

In a sense I think "ordered" today has a meaning nearer their original intent anyway...

...and since we keep straying, may I remind you that Nugent sucks!

[OFG-1]

OK, I haven't read thin in a few days. Has Ted Nugent started his own militia? Does his militia have a bunch of gun toting baptist ministers that have joined? Has the baptist church become libertarians? Does a "well regulated" militia have to do with flax seed and fiber? WTF are you guys talking about?

[JDR]

I'll give it to old Nugent, he can stir up a debate.



We all have the "Right" to bear arms. I don't believe that folks need 5 + handguns but that's their right. I have a couple, plus some other weapons for shooting birds, moose, and bear. I don't carry a concealed weapon anymore as I've been out of the military for long enough to relax. I am also surrounded by bleeding heart liberals with arsenals.

Damn, Alaska is an awesome place.

I enjoy playing with the Howitzer for avalanche mitigation, but I won't be bring one home.

Having 5+ handguns adds potential for guns to end up in the wrong hands (IMHO). Need a scooter, sell your Desert Eagle.

Peace through the use of a Peacemaker!

[skip]

Found this review:

May 17, 2002 8:45 a.m.
Tribal Fare
The Nugents are not only good cooks, they’re a spiritual phenomenon.

Kill It and Grill It, (Regnery, 203 pp., $21.95)

Two years ago, Ted Nugent — rock guitarist, writer, hunter, and family-man — penned God, Guns and Rock and Roll, a book of political thoughts and life anecdotes that sped onto the New York Times bestseller list.

So how does Nugent follow up such a success? He writes a cookbook, of course.


Kill It and Grill It, written by Nugent and his wife Shemane, is a compilation of more than 50 recipes for deer, elk, wild boar, rabbit, bear, wild turkey, duck, squirrel, and more. But the culinary formulas are only part of the menu offered by the Nugents. Ted and Shemane also suggest that you accept responsibility for being carnivores by going out and killing at least some of the meat you eat. They also have some meat-eating tips that will make for a more fulfilling experience. For example, when the kids are in bed, try and eat game in front of a roaring fire while seated nude on a bearskin rug. The Nugents let your imagination fill in the rest. Saucy stuff.

In God, Guns and Rock and Roll, much of America was introduced to Ted's lively prose. It's a writing style that continues in the cookbook (Shemane contributes two chapters of twenty-two, so the majority of the book's prose smacks of Ted). Why is game important to Ted Nugent's diet? Here's his answer, penned in a style that can only be attributed to one human: "Pure, real, honest-to-God freerange protein is the rocketfuel for my spiritual campfire."

The carnivorous Nugent family has not bought any meat from a grocery store since l969. Their theory, which is Ted's theory, always goes back to the diet-richness found only in wild game. Ted writes, "How better to give honor to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than to party hardy with delicious meat, lovingly carved from skeletons of protein-rich animals in the ultimate afterlife habitat of steel and charcoal?"

Ted may speak rock and roll, but this book is grounded in science. Wild-game meat is low in fat, low in cholesterol, and high in protein. The American Heart Association recommends wild game. Native people whose regular diets are similar to the Nugents' show little evidence of the heart disease, diabetes, stroke, and hardening of the arteries that plague modern civilized man.

So, if you buy into the formula so simply stated in the book's title, Ted and Shemane are ready to walk you through the process of transforming wild game on the hoof into meat on the table. The Nugent hierarchy for cooking game is this: "kill, clean, cool, cut, cure, freeze, cook and rejoice." At each step, their suggestions — and recipes — are pragmatic and clear.

The majority of the recipes in Kill It and Grill It are for deer and wild boar, which not only are Nugent-family favorites, but are out there in abundance.

There are at least 33 million whitetail deer in the U.S. today — more than at any time since the white man arrived. And the white man brought with him domestic pigs, some of which got loose and went wild. These feral hogs have since multiplied and bred with true wild boar that were introduced to the wild more recently. So, "wild pigs" are now found across the U.S. They multiply like rabbits and wreck havoc on the landscape as they dine. In most all states they are considered pests, and there is no hunting limit or closed season for this game. To be sure, if you follow in the footsteps of the Nugents, you're not going to threaten the ecology of North America. There's plenty of game to go around these days.

And now to the taste test. I had a wild-boar roast and some chukar partridge in the freezer, bagged during a trip to the Turk Station Lodge in the rolling hills around Coalinga, Calif. A recent trip to the Consumnes River Ranch near Sacramento had resulted in a fine wild turkey, and I added that to the test-game pile along with some wild geese and ducks left over from last fall. Friends chipped in some venison and antelope steaks, and we had most of the bases covered. I got out the cookbook, and we assembled for a beast feast.

From the start, we had some tough decisions. If you're a meat-eater, you would too, having to choose from Jamaican Jerk Venison, Stuffed and Rolled Venison Log, Italian Venison Casserole, Wild Boar Chops, Sweet and Sour Antelope, Goosebreast Rendezvous, Squirrel Casserole, Pheasant Chow Mein, Rabbit Belle Chasse, Wild Turkey with Morel Sauce, and on and on. But we narrowed it down, and went at it.

As an appetizer, we brewed up some Canada goose Biltong jerky. It is not always easy to render wild geese palatable, but this recipe produced dark, leathery, flavorful strips that were a quick favorite. Slow-roasting the antelope on the grill — the method the Nugents suggest for this type of game — made for a flavorable and tender Bar-B-Que Antelope Backstrap. Shemane's recipe for Coca-Cola Venison Stew was shocking on paper but it produced a delightful surprise — the beverage tenderizes and sweetens even the toughest old wild stag. And Ted's recipe for Quail Roast was not only tasty, but also addressed the toughness problem inherent in this bird.

As for the pièce de résistance, we used the Boar Roast recipe. It calls for about four pounds of wild boar, which is seasoned with basil, pepper, thyme, three cloves of garlic (Ted loves garlic), and paprika. The roast is then wrapped with four strips of bacon and put in a 350-degree oven with a meat thermometer. Cooking time is three to four hours, for as Ted points out, pork needs to be cooked to at least 160 degrees internally (170 for well done) to kill trichinosis.

"We don't just cook, we dance naked at the primordial campfire of life," the Nugents proclaim. I don't have a bearskin rug on my floor. I have a woodstove, not a fireplace. So, once our feast was over, we had to depart a bit from the complete Nugent game-eating experience. However, after savoring as many of the Nugent-family recipes as possible, that Marin County hot tub sure did feel good. And the coyotes and owls in the Golden Gate National Recreation Area did seem to sing an especially good concert for us that night under the spotlight of the full moon.

Kill It and Grill It is more than just a good cookbook, it's nourishment for the soul and inspiration for the heart.

— Mr. Swan is the “Media Watch” columnist for North American Hunter magazine.

No mention of alligator though....

But I did find this recipe for:

Alligator Balls

1 lb Chopped alligator meat
1 Egg
1 tb Finely chopped onions
1 tb Finely chopped celery
1 tb Finely chopped parsley
2 tb Finely chopped shallots
2 ts Lemon pepper
1/2 ts Salt
1/4 c Bread crumbs
1 c Cooking oil
Flour to dredge

Combine all ingredients, form 1 inch diameter balls, allow to set one hour. Dredge in flour and fry till brown. Serve hot.


-skip



-

Skip, if you try to serve me alligator balls, you will be punched in the mouth.

[MORGAN]

I didn't know that alligators had balls! Or will any part of the alligator do in this recipe? :-D


Mike

[Line Squirrel]

I didn't know that alligators had balls! Or will any part of the alligator do in this recipe? :-D


Mike

Maybe he ment you gotta have balls to eat an alligator...I dunno.

The two times I ate 'gator tail, the first time it was really good, the second time was like chewing on rubber bands.

[MORGAN]

The only way I've had gator is in small pieces, battered and deep fried. Almost any substance is good when cooked this way. I'd like to try some gator sauteed in butter and olive oil with garlic and shallots - I'd guess that would make even an old doormat or pieces of defunct wet suit delectable!

Mike

[aainslie]

Does a "well regulated" militia have to do with flax seed and fiber?

The image of a poorly regulated militia is just too good. Potty humour at its best.

[defunct]

Those Alligator balls sound tasty...

If anyone wants an awesome recipe for albino crayfish, let me know... They're pretty tasty when seasoned and fried lightly...

[skip]

Skip, if you try to serve me alligator balls, you will be punched in the mouth.

You don't know what you are missing! I couldn't find my copy of kill it and grill it, and not sure it had alligator anyway, but this recipe came from my "traditional cajun cooking" book of 100 "original" recipes. If anyone can make alligator balls taste good, they gotta be Cajun!

-skip

[Mike]

Skip Damn, I'm not eating at your house anymore.
There's no telling what I have ingested there.
All you tell me is it's chicken.
And I did not steal your kill it & grill it cook book!
By the way I'm grilling boar butt on Thursday.
Want to come over?
If you get nekkid in front of my grill again, I'll have to kill you.

Mike

[Wizard]

Mike, what doesn't kill you only serves to make you stronger. :-D

[skip]

Skip Damn, I'm not eating at your house anymore.
There's no telling what I have ingested there.
All you tell me is it's chicken.
And I did not steal your kill it & grill it cook book!
By the way I'm grilling boar butt on Thursday.
Want to come over?
If you get nekkid in front of my grill again, I'll have to kill you.

Mike

Now you are just teasing me. you know i can't keep my clothes on around hot boar butt!

-skip

[Jordan]

The two times I ate 'gator tail, the first time it was really good, the second time was like chewing on rubber bands.

Just like Morgan said in his post, the way to cook them is to cut them into small pcs and deep fry them.

Cooking gator tail is very time sensitive. If you cook them even slightly too long, it will come out as you describe (rubber bands). This is the most sensitive meat when it comes to overcooking. When you go ahead and cook them, do not walk away for any reason or you'll end up with rubber bands...

[Mike]

Skip Damn, I'm not eating at your house anymore.
There's no telling what I have ingested there.
All you tell me is it's chicken.
And I did not steal your kill it & grill it cook book!
By the way I'm grilling boar butt on Thursday.
Want to come over?
If you get nekkid in front of my grill again, I'll have to kill you.

Mike

Now you are just teasing me. you know i can't keep my clothes on around hot boar butt!

Your just a boar hopper. :-D
Mike

[Mike]

The two times I ate 'gator tail, the first time it was really good, the second time was like chewing on rubber bands.

Just like Morgan said in his post, the way to cook them is to cut them into small pcs and deep fry them.

Cooking gator tail is very time sensitive. If you cook them even slightly too long, it will come out as you describe (rubber bands). This is the most sensitive meat when it comes to overcooking. When you go ahead and cook them, do not walk away for any reason or you'll end up with rubber bands...

Sounds like calamari to me.
Its like eating rubber bands.
I've had good gater.
I guess just make sure the cook doesn't get distracted.

Mike

[johnnyrichards]

....in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states....


Then go back to Zimbabwe. I don't know about Florida, but Texas certainly doesn't require the help of outsiders to run its business.

400 down and counting..........

Johnny

[Line Squirrel]

Sounds like calamari to me.
Its like eating rubber bands.
I've had good gater.
I guess just make sure the cook doesn't get distracted.

Mike

Good analogy. I've had really REALLY good fried calamari and I've had the rubber band version. The latter is a big dissapointment when you're paying $$$ in a nice resturaunt.

[OFG-1]

WTF Guys. Ted is now:

Cutting the balls off of aligators and eating them?
Eating rubbery fried squid?
Moving back to Zimbabwe?
Jerking the livers out of Jamacian geese?
Eating the ass out of a wild boar?
Stuffing and rooling a deer around a log?

I thought this heavy metal thing had gone too far when Ozzy bit the head off the bat. Damn, compared to Nugent, he aint nothin....

[MORGAN]

WTF Guys. Ted is now:

Cutting the balls off of aligators and eating them?


Nah, he's probably biting them off.



Mike

[aainslie]

....in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states....


Then go back to Zimbabwe. I don't know about Florida, but Texas certainly doesn't require the help of outsiders to run its business.

400 down and counting..........

Johnny

Believe me, I agree that Zimbabwe is an idiot state! Was under Smith, and is under Mugabe. And they too had idiot gun laws. When I was growing up with a war going on, half of us (including me) had FN's in our cars at all times. For some stupid reason, Russian Roulette became "fun" - someone started a theory that a well-oiled barrel would never stop with the round near the top. I suspect that genius didn't do too well at physics in school - and definitely didn't understand how ratchets work. A couple of people died thanks to that one...

Zimbabwe's cooking would definitely keep this thread going. They roast something called a "mopane worm" that is really a bloody great caterpillar. And fried flying ants are surprisingly good.

[Line Squirrel]

I suspect that genius didn't do too well at physics in school - and definitely didn't understand how ratchets work. A couple of people died thanks to that one...



Well, at least it got rid of the really stupid ones

[mfascuba]

I suspect that genius didn't do too well at physics in school - and definitely didn't understand how ratchets work. A couple of people died thanks to that one...



Well, at least it got rid of the really stupid ones

Sad to say, but Darwin is constantly at work - a kid in school with my son was stupid enough to play russian roulette with a semiautomatic pistol... Didn't do too well with that either.

Mark

[defunct]

Sad to say, but Darwin is constantly at work - a kid in school with my son was stupid enough to play russian roulette with a semiautomatic pistol... Didn't do too well with that either.

Mark

The only TRUE way to do it with a semi-auto, is to have a "real" friend load the magazine with all but one blanks and a live round. At least thats the way my dad taught me before he died... (gunshot wound)

[Cave Ranger]

I'm with you Johnny.
The only way for us so called "idiot states" to ever truly be free of the opression that is the modern federal government is to secede.
As a native Floridian it's never ceased to amaze me throughout my life time how many obnoxious know it all "outsiders" come to our home states and then tell all of us locals how we should be living and how we should think.
They are always very quick to remind us about how inferior we are and that thank God they got here to square us away just in the nick of time.
The "Independant Republic of Texas" or Florida is sounding like a pretty good option these days. Vermont has been considering it for years.
Of course since this really isn't a free country it would only be a matter of time before the feds send the tanks in to crush the rebellion.
I've never been able to figure out why the individual states were welcomed into the union but are forbidden to leave if a majority of it's citizens want to. Kind of like an abusive marriage based on fear and intimidation.

Congrats on 400. That pretty much covers me for my weekly rant. Well at least it lowers my blood pressure.




....in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states....


Then go back to Zimbabwe. I don't know about Florida, but Texas certainly doesn't require the help of outsiders to run its business.

400 down and counting..........

Johnny

[johnnyrichards]

I'm with you Johnny.
The only way for us so called "idiot states" to ever truly be free of the opression that is the modern federal government is to secede.
As a native Floridian it's never ceased to amaze me throughout my life time how many obnoxious know it all "outsiders" come to our home states and then tell all of us locals how we should be living and how we should think.
They are always very quick to remind us about how inferior we are and that thank God they got here to square us away just in the nick of time.
The "Independant Republic of Texas" or Florida is sounding like a pretty good option these days. Vermont has been considering it for years.
Of course since this really isn't a free country it would only be a matter of time before the feds send the tanks in to crush the rebellion.
I've never been able to figure out why the individual states were welcomed into the union but are forbidden to leave if a majority of it's citizens want to. Kind of like an abusive marriage based on fear and intimidation.

Congrats on 400. That pretty much covers me for my weekly rant. Well at least it lowers my blood pressure.




....in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states....


Then go back to Zimbabwe. I don't know about Florida, but Texas certainly doesn't require the help of outsiders to run its business.

400 down and counting..........

Johnny

Amen.

Johnny

[Cave Ranger]

I'm with you Johnny.
The only way for us so called "idiot states" to ever truly be free of the opression that is the modern federal government is to secede.
As a native Floridian it's never ceased to amaze me throughout my life time how many obnoxious know it all "outsiders" come to our home states and then tell all of us locals how we should be living and how we should think.
They are always very quick to remind us about how inferior we are and that thank God they got here to square us away just in the nick of time.
The "Independant Republic of Texas" or Florida is sounding like a pretty good option these days. Vermont has been considering it for years.
Of course since this really isn't a free country it would only be a matter of time before the feds send the tanks in to crush the rebellion.
I've never been able to figure out why the individual states were welcomed into the union but are forbidden to leave if a majority of it's citizens want to. Kind of like an abusive marriage based on fear and intimidation.

Congrats on 400. That pretty much covers me for my weekly rant. Well at least it lowers my blood pressure.




....in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states....


Then go back to Zimbabwe. I don't know about Florida, but Texas certainly doesn't require the help of outsiders to run its business.

400 down and counting..........

Johnny

Amen.

Johnny

Not bad for a "nihilist" Aye? :-D

[Kenny P.]

Seriously? Nugent, the poster boy for eloquent rhetoric?

Let's look at two websites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

It doesn't take much to see the outlier. The US is the only wealthy country where you stand a good chance of being shot - and the only wealthy country where weapons are easily available.

I've lived in South Africa and Zimbabwe. They're not pretty places to live in terms of personal safety.This "defence" idea is the stupidest piece of crap that I've ever heard. It made sense back in the 18th and 19th century, but seriously... going to Telford on a Sunday before the ban and realizing that you were giving both yourself and those morons the "right to bear arms" - that's a good thing how?

Look around you next time you're in a redneck bar - and realize the rather obvious problem with the reciprocity of this little "defence" arrangement.

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.

Sorry about the vent. But seriously, that's the dumbest amendment we have. The only reason I feel it has any place in law is because there are so many others that it would be sad to contest - and opening up this one would bring others into dispute.

Like, say, the right to free speech.

Andrew,
If the poopie ever hits the fan at your house, just call 911. I'm sure you'll be pleased with the results, WAFJ! Are you really from this planet? Rednecks are the least of your problems my man!
Merry CHRISTmas,
Kenny P.

[RAL]

Seriously? Nugent, the poster boy for eloquent rhetoric?

Let's look at two websites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

It doesn't take much to see the outlier. The US is the only wealthy country where you stand a good chance of being shot - and the only wealthy country where weapons are easily available.

I've lived in South Africa and Zimbabwe. They're not pretty places to live in terms of personal safety.This "defence" idea is the stupidest piece of crap that I've ever heard. It made sense back in the 18th and 19th century, but seriously... going to Telford on a Sunday before the ban and realizing that you were giving both yourself and those morons the "right to bear arms" - that's a good thing how?

Look around you next time you're in a redneck bar - and realize the rather obvious problem with the reciprocity of this little "defence" arrangement.

I crap myself every time I see an altercation in Florida, Texas and all the other idiot states that think that arming the populace is a good idea. I'm just waiting for the day I see this "right" exposed in a public place. Oh that's right - I have - when I got held up at a gas station in Chicago.

Sorry about the vent. But seriously, that's the dumbest amendment we have. The only reason I feel it has any place in law is because there are so many others that it would be sad to contest - and opening up this one would bring others into dispute.

Like, say, the right to free speech.

Sir you may want to do a little research. You might start with Gary Klecks book "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America".
Kleck is not a exactly your typical pro gunner. He was very anti gun. He is somewhat of a rarity in that he wanted actual hard data to back up his beliefs. He went from being a darling of the anti gunners to being shunned. His crime...... being honest. Unless you are one of those "Do not confuse me with the facts I have already made up my mind" types you will at the least have much food for thought.

RAL

[FW]

Ok, guys!

You can say anything you want about Ted Nugent, he is a public figure, plus he is NOT a cave diver.

You need to avoid saying things about each other, it only leads to flame wars, and we have had enough of them lately. You can disagree with a point of view and post your own point of view, but don't aim it at the CDF member that disagrees with you !!!

[Techno_Bob]

gun control means being able to hit your target

as a statistician you can prove anything you want by statistics, since even US stats are underreported (for instance the number of crimes foiled by gun abiding citizens is not even tracked), therefore to compare US stats to other national stats is always trying to compare apples to oranges

remember this a RIGHT, to try and water it down by claiming the national guard is the militia is disingenuous (an argument that often is used)

Bob

[aainslie]

gun control means being able to hit your target



Pretty funny! :) I like it.

I clearly offended a lot of people by calling Texas and Florida "idiot states". I didn't mean that I thought that everyone in them is an idiot. I mean that I think it's idiotic to have such lax gun laws.

There are at LEAST 4 or 5 bright people in Florida. Who knows - there may even be more! :)

[grim reefer]

Pretty funny! :) I like it.

I clearly offended a lot of people by calling Texas and Florida "idiot states". I didn't mean that I thought that everyone in them is an idiot. I mean that I think it's idiotic to have such lax gun laws.

There are at LEAST 4 or 5 bright people in Florida. Who knows - there may even be more! :)

That's OK, It all gets balanced out if you keep visiting a few times a year.

Think about this, Can you imagine how many more people would have been killed if they waited for the police to show up?
Read the last two paragraphs

Investigators prepare to remove two vehicles from the home at 10929 E. Berry...
By JUDITH KOHLER, AP
2 hours ago
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. —
Authorities searched a home in suburban Englewood early Monday, seeking any link between two deadly shooting sprees at Christian religious centers that left both communities baffled and stunned.

Five people, including a gunman, died in the attacks Sunday at a megachurch in Colorado Springs and at the Youth With a Mission missionary center in the Denver suburb of Arvada. Five others were wounded.

"Violent crimes of any sort are tragic enough, but when innocent people are killed in a religious facility or a place of worship, we must voice a collective sense of outrage and demonstrate a renewed commitment to keeping our communities safe," said Gov. Bill Ritter.

Police in Arvada said they believed the shootings _ which occurred 12 hours and about 65 miles apart _ were probably linked, though they had nothing conclusive to back up the theory.

"Given the circumstances, I think it is a good possibility that the two are linked," Arvada Deputy Police Chief Gary Creagor told The Associated Press early Monday. "But we have to prove that they are."

At a news conference Sunday, Police Chief Don Wick said that there was "reason to believe" the shootings were connected, though he declined to elaborate.

Early Monday, authorities were searching a home in suburban Englewood, about 15 miles south of Denver, that they said could be related to the Colorado Springs shooting case. Authorities could be seen coming and going from the home, and at one point searching the bushes in front.

The violence began about 12:30 a.m. Sunday, when a man opened fire at the Youth With a Mission office after he had been denied a request to spend the night there. Witnesses told police that the gunman was a 20-year-old white male, wearing a dark jacket and skull cap, who had a handgun.

More than 12 hours later, at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, a gunman with a high-powered rifle entered the church's main foyer and opened fire, Colorado Springs Police Chief Richard Myers said.

One church member was killed, and another who was badly wounded died later Sunday at Penrose Community Hospital in Colorado Springs, said hospital spokeswoman Amy Sufak. Their identities were not released.

The gunman was killed by a member of the church's armed security staff before police arrived, Myers said. Officers also found several smoke-generating devices on the church campus; their intended purpose wasn't clear.

About 7,000 people were on the church campus at the time of the shooting, said Senior Pastor Brady Boyd said. Security had been beefed up after the shootings hours earlier in Arvada, he said.

[FW]

It is a pretty sad state of affairs when churches need armed security guards :(

[aainslie]

I agree. Why woud anyone ever want to go to one?

if people simply did the logical hing and stayed away from churches there'd be no need to guard them. And Sunday would be far more fun.

[Slüdge]

What's a logical hing?

[aainslie]

What's a logical hing?

M kbod dsnt lwys wrk

[contender]

My bad Old Guy!! I really shouldn't post while wearing my "beer goggles".
That being said I was just trying to point out the inconsistancies of all of the groups who nit pick the constitution to suit their own agenda.
I guess the Baptist minister you mentioned doesn't abide by the "turn the other cheek" verse. :smt017
Well any way. I'm sorry about that. I enjoy a good rant every now and again. Peace!!

Nope, he goes by the eye for an eye verse!

[Mike Edmonston]

I agree. Why woud anyone ever want to go to one?

if people simply did the logical hing and stayed away from churches there'd be no need to guard them. And Sunday would be far more fun.

Well... I'm a Zen Buddhist, I don't go to church, and my Sundays ARE FUN!

Seems Logical... :-D

[Jay]

I feel comfortable in Florida because I came from a state with even less gun control laws. And it was one of the original 13. Before the Brady law you could walk into any gun store/k-mart/sears, buy a hand gun, ammo, a holster, load it and wear it around town, as long it was not concealed. And they are very slow in enforcing or following any federal guidelines since then. I forget the few places you could not wear them, but I think it was church, banks and liquor stores, or something like that.
My father never had guns in the house , but they were common everywhere else and people were pretty responsible. Nobody outside the state ever noticed the lack of gun control laws because it was just a way of life. You didn't make a big deal out of it. You talked about your guns like you talked about your fishing gear or your tools. Probably as many gun racks per capita as any of the southern states, there just wasn't as many capita. :)
I do notice in other states I have been in, Florida and Texas included, people do treat their guns differently. I guess it is a penis enlarger or something, cause they just have to whip it out and show everybody and brag about it. Now, I am not saying everybody in these states does this, because I know many people who don't. Unfortunately there is enough of these idiots waving them around to bring negative attention towards the rest.

[wingman]

as a statistician you can prove anything you want by statistics, since even US stats are underreported (for instance the number of crimes foiled by gun abiding citizens is not even tracked), therefore to compare US stats to other national stats is always trying to compare apples to oranges

Bob

As a statistician i should remind you that you are dealing with inductive reasoning. Conclusions based on statistical analysis are probabilistic, can't prove anything with statistics.

Actually i'm all for guns...it is the ammunition that i would like to see made illegal.

Bill

[jmaddox]

per Mr. Rock: "Gun control? We need bullet control! I think every bullet should cost 5,000 dollars. Because if a bullet cost five thousand dollar, we wouldn't have any innocent bystander .”

If a full clip of .40s cost me $75K, id take out a second mortgage! dont believe me? come see where I live.

--jm

[aainslie]

If a bullet cost $5000 there'd be a black market for them. And innocent people would be even worse off. Especially poor innocent people.

Sheesh. I'd rather have no gun control than bullet control!

Tell Mr Rock not to give up his day job.

[wingman]

If a bullet cost $5000 there'd be a black market for them. And innocent people would be even worse off. Especially poor innocent people.

Sheesh. I'd rather have no gun control than bullet control!

Tell Mr Rock not to give up his day job.

ah but think about all the possibilities if bullets were regulated and made expensive, much less shooting...bullets are complement goods and increasing their price would reduce the demand for guns driving gun prices down and making them more affordable for the poor innocents (if you've looked at gun prices, the poor innocents are not going to be buying a lot of them anyway). Besides revenue from the regulatory process could then be used for all sorts of productive purposes, like bullet stamps for the poor innocents. I think poor innocent people might well be better off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRpbvuU1D8&feature=related

[Angie Reim]

If a bullet cost $5000 there'd be a black market for them. And innocent people would be even worse off. Especially poor innocent people.

Sheesh. I'd rather have no gun control than bullet control!

Tell Mr Rock not to give up his day job.

I am curious as to what personal experience you have with being the target of senseless violence. It's a seemingly random act and should you ever look down the wrong end of a pistol I wonder if you might change your attitude because like it or not some people enjoy hurting others. You can't talk them out of it.

If you are not physically vulnerable now, you will be in your doderage. It would be nice if no one ever needed a firearm and you have a right to remain unarmed. I understand the sentiment. However, just as you stated earlier, you get to piss your pants everytime you witness an altercation. FWIW most people don't enjoy fights. As long as you participate in society you will never be able to completely insulate yourself from violent acts.

It's hopeless at this point to think that the American population can be disarmed and facile to believe that written laws will change the situation. It takes a cultural change that given the current social climate will not happen.

[aainslie]

I am curious as to what personal experience you have with being the target of senseless violence.

I've:

- participated in a guerilla war including a few occasions of exchanging fire with someone about 30 feet away. Fortunately all of us sucked and no one got killed;

- Been mugged in Chicago;

- And my family members in Johannesburg have been robbed at gun and knife point several times.

How about you, Angie?

My funniest event on the other side was when I ran up to a cash machine in Chicago,with a leather jacket and sporting a pony tail and a bit of a beard. There was a sweet couple who basically took off, leaving their card in the machine. I ran after them with their card, an they REALLY started running. it took me a while to realise that they thought I was going to mug them!!!

[Angie Reim]

I've:

-Suffered beatings from strangers requiring hospitalization.
-Witnessed stabbings/robberies
-Fought off more than one home intruder. I have no remorse for the damage I inflicted.
-Got mugged in Winter Park (got punched in the face but also managed to keep my purse and the bastard got bit by a K-9 corp dog for his trouble)
-Robbed at gunpoint
-Run from gunfire shot toward me.
-Listened to the rantings of the nuts who were mere acquaintances that were eager to hurt or unaffected by the pain of others.
-Spent several years picking up the bodies left by bad guys and dealing with the grieving families.

I now support and work within the gov't war machine. I don't agree with harming civilians and I worry deeply about them. Soldiers on either side, on the other hand, have to accept the consequences of their actions. Good weaponry limits casualties.

Sooo.....I'm more than slightly experienced with what weaponry does to others. I've never used violence except in self-defense. It made me cry to spank my own child. I can't stand folks that mouth off about their 'arsenal' yet have no idea what it's like to actually have to defend themselves. Crossing that line is a very serious decision with long-term consequences. It's not worthy of ego-building. It's not something to brag about.

It'd be nice if no one had guns, but they do and society has no working mechanism to handle it. It'd be nice if no one hurt other people but there will always be perverts that do so I'll be damned if I'll be helpless victim. It's a vile waste of humanity when that happens to people. BTW running is not a cowardly act. It's self-defense.

I believe most often poverty and no obvious means to escape it is the driving force. The need to control others kicks in. Cure that and everyone wins. After that it's drugs and then religion. Enforcing gun control is like pissing in the wind. So I'm pragmatic.

Having family in S. Africa I hope you do not support the aparthied system. You must know how debilitating that is to those who are disadvantaged by it. So it was prior to the civil rights movement here in the U.S.

That's why I have a juvenile sense of humor - in that it needs to be fairly clean or just silly. That's why I don't tolerate counter-productive foolishness and posturing. It squanders the positive results of hard work.

BTW, don't throw rocks unless you can take a few in return.


Now I'm done with it.

[OFG-1]

I've:

-Suffered beatings from strangers requiring hospitalization.
-Witnessed stabbings/robberies
-Fought off more than one home intruder. I have no remorse for the damage I inflicted.
-Got mugged in Winter Park (got punched in the face but also managed to keep my purse and the bastard got bit by a K-9 corp dog for his trouble)
-Robbed at gunpoint
-Run from gunfire shot toward me.
-Listened to the rantings of the nuts who were mere acquaintances that were eager to hurt or unaffected by the pain of others.
-Spent several years picking up the bodies left by bad guys and dealing with the grieving families.


Yes, but have you been to a Ted Nugent concert?
Have you ever spent time in a turkish prison?
Do you like movies about gladiators?

[Cave Ranger]

Yes, but have you been to a Ted Nugent concert?
Have you ever spent time in a turkish prison?
Do you like movies about gladiators?

Have you ever blindly jumped onto a bicycle with the seat missing?
Have you ever submitted to a prison grade body cavity search from a former East German female Olympic wrestler named Helga?
Have you ever gotten one or more private parts stuck in a Shopvac?
Have you ever done any of the above at a Ted Nugent concert?

What?!?!?!? You haven't?!?!?!..............Oh?..............Well me neither!! :-)

[Angie Reim]

Bunch of a ssoholes! LOL. I had that coming.

Go away now and so will I. :-)