Accident at Mx

[Aktun]

Two cave diver died at Kalimba cenote, Kalimba is part of Sak Aktun(grand cenote), the divers were Ken Hirsch, and Mike Nast. What happened,I do not know, the news said "they got lost".
http://www.poresto.net/index.php?ID=18626
(spanish)
Let's wait info flow.
David

[crazyduck]

Babel fish Translation of the newspaper

Two divers in a natural well die
They were lost in the tunnels of the Kolimba natural well, in the Tulum-Cobá highway

ALCALDIA OF TULUM, SOLIDARITY, 9 of December. - Tragic death of a pair of divers, when apparently they were lost in the tunnels of the Kolimba natural well, located on the state highway, in the kilometer 4+300 Tulum-Cobá, apparently its death went by asphyxia, presumably when the finishing the compressed air (oxygen) of its tanks.

The morning of this Thursday in the natural well before mentioned two foreigners were killed, when they were diving, first of them, guide of tourists, Kent Hirsch, original of Pensilvania and Mike Nast, original tourist of Florida, that arrived at this tourist pole of 4 December accompanied by its wife, same that they were stayed in Villas of the Aquatech Rose, located in the Mayan Riviera, also suffered a same fate.

The police sources informed that at nine in the morning it arrived a group of 4 tourists coming from the place before mentioned, who introduced themselves to the natural wells to dive, where passed away both mentioned, also were William Downney and Jane Downey both of fifty and eight years of age, original of Vadem, Pensilvania.

Who when noticing itself that the things did not walk nothing well, retired of the group in order to leave the natural well, obtaining to leave by its own means, later Gary Lorey dips, that came in another group managed to rescue corpses to 11:15 hours, being transferred towards the borders of the natural well.

At the place of the facts they arrived Luis Ceme Couoh, expert in criminology that gave faith in the rise of corpses, the agent of the Public Ministry, Pedro Martinez Quijano, the Judicial Police, the assistant director of Civil defense, Bright Salvador Arguea and the assistant director of Public Security, Manuel Lopez Kantún.

The expert in criminology Ceme Couoh, explained that in agreement to the characteristics that presented/displayed the victims of a murder, the frothy fungus in the mouth, is deduced that they died by asphyxia, without embargo, later of which the law autopsy practices will determine the cause del decease, also the quality del oxygen which they contained the tanks, by which was opened previous inquiry 564/2004 by the crime of facts, the corpses were transferred by the undertakers to Beach del Carmen for the law autopsy, the tanks that they loaded were without oxygen.

Transfer of corpses
Like always, before the agreements that it has made the Public Ministry with the undertakers, the corpses are transferred by that the turn touches to him, although sometimes the relatives decide that they are taken to a single undertaker, as the present case, in where the tourists who accompanied the deceased tried that outside an undertaker who transferred corpses.

Nevertheless, one of them was taken by the undertaker of Quintana Roo and the other by the Undertaker of the Caribbean, bringing displeased between relatives and friends.

It is possible to indicate that the tourist Mike Nast, solely went to dive he, being left his wife in Villas of the Rose.

(Roman Moor)

My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the two deceased divers.

[jrgordonsenior]

Forwarded by me from Nic Toussaint, Akumal DIR Center:

"It was a sad day for cave diving in Mexico !

Two cave divers failed to comeback to exit, It was 9 diver group split in two groups of 4, one with guide,
te dive plan was a double jump traverse calimba - boschen, in sac actun cave system,
both teams sharing reels, jumps was 2 minutes form each other
one team turn the wrong way at the jump even they pickup their "team cookie marker" at jump reel,
4 divers miss it ! as they follow the arrows instead of their exit direction and travel 1500ft of passage not travel on the way in !
2 divers where taking pictures as they swam the 20-25 minutes to the end of the line following the arrows until they realize the line is over and they were lost,
they try to jump again but could not find Gran cenote - Hotul main line and swam back.........

In the meanwhile the other team pick up the second reel but left the first one for next day dive,
(actually this is a "snap and gap", but I never use) and head out thru the boa restrictions,
coming out uneventful however the other team was not out ! So they decide to drive to Gran Cenote and look for them

Back inside at the "snap gap" the team split in pairs and 1st pair make it out after sharing gas with less than 500 psi left on the tanks,
prior team re-arrenge gas a went looking for divers left behind,
the other pair did not make it out, running out of gas 200-300 ft from entrance,
the 1st search team brougth one out, 2nd search brought next one out

Too sad this is the 6th cave diver death in Mexico this year and they all link to the usual people involved, poor training and logistics wise !

Be smart guys !"

[Aktun]

Link removed.

We will have no more of that.

Jay Wells

[JohnTodd]

Anyone have any insight regarding the accident? What happened? Where did they get lost or turned around?

JT

[Jay]

Translated
TULUM, SOLIDARITY, 9 OF DECEMBER. - Two divers died by decompression to the edge of noon of yesterday Thursday, minutes after to have entered to swim in a natural well that is located in the side of the Tulum-Cobá highway, the tragic facts come to add one long list of deaths of divers under the same conditions. Although the representatives of the Subdivision of Civil defense, made formal appearance in the natural well "Calinda Kin-Ha", to save the life of the divers, or nothing could do since the divers or had happened to better life floating in the entrance of the cavern after to have swum by long short while in the underground rivers. A report of the corresponding authority, indicates that when arriving at the place of the facts they had at sight to two people without life, which responded to the names of Mike Nast, original of Pensilvania and until the hour of his death it counted on 42 years of age, the other occioso responded to the name of Kent original Hirsch of the same place and counted on 46 years age. The corresponding authorities indicate that the tourists passed away by broncoaspiración by immersion and they were provided with accomodations in the hotel Villas of Pink the Akumal Adventures. Previous to the arrival of the authorities, the divers either had been rescued by the guide of name Gary Lorey, nevertheless or were dead, in the place of the facts the ministerial authorities appeared and gave faith of the facts being transferred the bodies without life to well-known Beach undertaker of the Carmen.

Jay

[MikeH]

Jay, I'm assuming that translation was directly from some website that translated it...right? If so, why don't you cut and paste the original Spanish and somebody here can probably do a better job of translating it. Those websites translate things TOO literally...often losing much in the translation.

Mike

[Jay]

NOTE: This topic will stay open only if we have constructive discussion of the incident. Please respect the families and friends involved.

I removed some earlier posts.

Jay

[DeWayne]

NOTE: This topic will stay open only if we have constructive discussion of the incident. Please respect the families and friends involved.

I removed some earlier posts.

Jay

Quite understand Jay, thanks.

Again, my heart felt condolences to family and friends.

[D]

Enough time has passed now for people to be able to discuss the deaths of two divers staying at Villas De Rosa, in a way that puts accident analysis as the only way to improve the situation down here in Mexico.

From first hand, from all the poeple I have talked with down here, the instructors and the explorers, and full time cave guides and full on divers, they are a little annoyed, but feel restricted to voice anything just yet in respect to the divers who died.

The local divers are annoyed, because the thought of 9 people in Kalimba, is, to be fair, an accident waiting to happen. It is a gorgeous cave, and incredibly decorated, but also small (there are many restrictions). Just on the issue of cave conservation, 9 would be considered too much. About 6 too much, and 5 too much if they are to split up into two teams.

Regardless of experience and skill level, it was too much, and to be honest, it would be experience that would tell you that, and a passion for conservation that would prevent you carrying out that dive plan.

The divers dived a considerable way on their return in cave that they didn't dive in on the way in. One persons definition of experience is different to anothers.

I don't want to critisise anyone, and we all have bad days, but it has come time to discuss who should be the guides in this area. I have never understood how people who do not live here, work here, dive in Mexico's cave structures everyday (yes, everyday), manage to be cave guides.

I have dived alot in other cave systems in other countries, but because I do not live there, I would never consider guiding a dive I had organised there, I would get a local, who lives it, and knows the pitfalls to take me. Someone I trust, and know will be safety and conservation driven. And, yes, I'd pay him, and what their worth too. This is surely a part of accident annalysis. Lack of familiarity with the cave surroundings, lack of familiarity to plan the dive well. Too many on a "trust me" dive. Even if the guide wishes to claim that they were experienced in that cave system, then that is worse. Either way you look at it, it is bad. Two guys got lost. Two "experienced divers" got lost

A local guide, who lives in caves, would not have taken so many in and would have probably chosen a more suitable dive for the team. More knowledge of where to go would have helped. Also, as an outsider who lives not in Mexico, the guide would not be familiar with the local administrative situation. Diving in these caves is legal, but only just, and taking larger groups (for whatever reason) is jeapardising access to these caves for the people who live here, and future generations of tourists. This is important for cave guiding, and so people should not choose delicate dive sites for large groups.

I have recently seen 8 people in Minatauro. Come on guys, wake up. This is dumb.

I urge everyone who goes diving here from the USA to make sure a local guide is with you, who knows the caves, and has been in them everyday for at least year. Familiarity is essential. I really don't understand that people work in one country and guide in another. Sure, some can, but they are very much the few, and those who claim to be that person should be looked at with caution.

I know people will disagree with me on this, but the facts are that 9 went in to Kalimba to dive, and two died. Nobody was, to my knowledge, living in mexico, with an FM3. I have heard the words "greed", and "totally incompetant" mentioned from people who are normally calm, but that is a little harsh. I think thoughtless and selfish is better. Please don't ruin things for others, and let common sense run your business.

[Gary]

What purpose are the guides? Whatever the purpose they are obviously being wrongly used on this dive.

Guides IMO would make sense to protect a delicate cave system from misuse - not as a tool of exploration.

Paying a guide to take divers into a system on a complex dive they could not plan or execute on their own experience is little more then a "trust me" dive - shortcutting experience in the system for loss of safety and money.

When most people travel to Mexico to see the caves there this trade off is exactly what they have in mind - they have a limited amount of time to see as much cave as they can.

Are the guides protecting the systems or just collecting a fee for access? Are they promoting safe dive plans and providing an extra level of safety or just the opposite?

I'm actually considering diving in Mexico as soon as next month and spending a considerable time there. So this is more then just a vent but actually a question into what is going on and why.

[Dave]

Who was the guide?

[Aktun]

The newspaper saids Kent Hirsch was the guide.

David

[resolute]

The way I see a guide in cavediving is someone who can handle the setup and logistics and familiarize one with a system, but not someone who you follow blindly anywhere that you can't get yourself out of on your own.

They can give you a pre-dive briefing take you see the prettiest caves, etc., but you cannot count on them and them alone to insure your safety, just like you can't count on any one buddy to do for you... All members in a team share responsibility for their own safety as well as that of their teammates on any given dive. Using a guide does not give you the luxury of not being aware of your surroundings or following the same cave diving rules that you would follow on your own. If you are not comfortable doing something without a guide, you shouldn't be doing it with a guide..

Most reputable guides provide a good service in Mexico and definetly add value to a trip down there, but I see most of what you should count on them for as being out of the water - getting you to and from, helping plan the day, procuring needed tanks or equipment, and making the dive run more "efficiently" (ie - finding the main line tie ins, etc.). But, In the water they are just another (hopefully good) dive buddy that has been there before, but you better always understand where they are taking you and what they are doing - if not verify or call the dive if necessary - dosen't matter if you ARE in a place where you have a limited amount of time to see stuff - you can always go back later - next trip, next year whatever - the cave will still be there

JB

[JoeyP]

Lets look at the training. The fatal dive is less complex then doing the Hill 400 to the bats and jumping to the Roller Coaster in Ginnie and yet 4 Full Cave Certified divers were unable to execute it safely. Why did this happen?

Joe Citelli

[JohnTodd]

Lets look at the training. The fatal dive is less complex then doing the Hill 400 to the bats and jumping to the Roller Coaster in Ginnie and yet 4 Full Cave Certified divers were unable to execute it safely. Why did this happen?

Joe Citelli

Can you explain the dive plan? I've read the explanations on this list and others, have dove there, and can't clearly follow it. Agree with looking at training, but I think another factor was a convoluted dive plan, with too many teams in a small system.

John Todd

[JoeyP]

Can you explain the dive plan? I've read the explanations on this list and others, have dove there, and can't clearly follow it. Agree with looking at training, but I think another factor was a convoluted dive plan, with too many teams in a small system.


My impression is that there was no plan beyond follow the leader and therefore beyond any lucid explanation. I have many dives there and can't clearly follow what they report either but knowing the system I suspect they turned left towards Grand Cenote upon exiting the Bos Chen line instead of going right and back to the jump to the Calimba line. This line ends after about 1500 feet at a huge jump before the line which leads to the exit which is only 2-300 feet away.

[Genesis]

Sounds like the root problem was finding yourself on the wrong line to start with, and not recognizing that had occurred before your option to turn around and go back whence you came has expired.

"Follow the leader" may be all nice and well, but you still have to look at your SPG and if you see that you've reached thirds, you need to know you can exit on what you have left - and which way to go.

I've read the description of the dive plan and what happened several times, and I'm still not sure I follow it. That's probably a bad sign too..... :roll:

[resolute]

I have many dives there and can't clearly follow what they report either but knowing the system I suspect they turned left towards Grand Cenote upon exiting the Bos Chen line instead of going right and back to the jump to the Calimba line. This line ends after about 1500 feet at a huge jump before the line which leads to the exit which is only 2-300 feet away.

I dove this system recently on 2 different trips (one in Sept of this year and one last month) - and the lines had been rearranged in between the two trips right around the point where the Bos Chen jump is off the Grand Cenote line.. (one trip I came in through Calimba, the other through Grand Cenote) IIRC, at the Bos Chen jump there were (as of last month at least) marker arrows pointing both ways and the line almost makes a 90 degree turn.. It took our team a few extra mins. to figure out what was going on here (and ultimately find the Bos Chen jump), because of this rearrangement. But I am having trouble remember what you are referring to as the "huge jump" - I was thinking that the line was continuous from the Bos Chen jump all the way out Grand Centote.. Can anyone else add knowledge/perspective?

JB

[D]

Good point, and well made. Indeed, what are the point of guides? Well, for one, a proper guide with experience of the area would not have lost two people as what happened the other day. Remember, they didn't have bad air(?), or a heart attack. They got lost. Two experienced guys get lost. This is the very thing we train not to do. We train to not get lost, to always find our way out. These two experienced divers got lost (this was a truely bad day for cave diving, and everyone who participates). This should explain something to you about the caves in Mexico. They are very different to those in Florida, and to those unfamiliar, a guide is essential. Guides can also provide a huge array of local knowledge if they are enthusiastic about their job, knowledge you won't get from someone who does not live here. The guide can make an assessment of peoples abilities, and plan their dives better on the surface. For example, did this guide explain the snap and gap jump that exists there? Would have encouraged them to use it, or to spool the jump instead? Were they familiar with snap and gap jumps? But as you say, in many cases a guide replaces one problem with another.

The thing is, whenever I go somewhere to dive, I seek local knowledge. Do I read the magazines, do I listen to what the local media promtes. Absolutely not. To many, if not most, cave diving is money, and I don't trust articles that promote self promoters (Harsh, but it comes from observation). Instead, I have a small network of people I have dived with personally, and trust their opinion. Unfortunately, this takes time. We help each other on these issues, and it always seems that the individuals most likely to look after us and dive with myself as a team are the ones not advertising themselves as local GURUS of diving. They are the ones diving everyday, quietly getting on with their explorations and surveys, and committing their time to more knowledge, not more business.

I can only recommend that you avoid the large outfits, and seek a guide that actually LIVES and DIVES in Mexico not just for a living, but for a life. Local experience is everything. Whilst I understand that people can be experienced in diving, the definition is not clear in many areas. Working for a law company or a Fortune 500 company is an amazing achievement, but it surely must take up all of your time. Cave diving under such responsibilities makes the sport a hobby. Many will call themselves experienced, and nobody challenges it. But have they dived everyday (rest permitting) for a couple of years or more non stop, and approached diving projects as a task to be perfected, or just a cave to be dived. Have they dived 75%+ days in the last two months. If someone had a weekend interest in dentistry, I would not use them. I may certainly think that they know alot, but I wouldn't let them touch my teeth. My issue here is how different cultures have different meanings for "experienced", and some use it all too readily.

Cave diving teams always operate better in small units, and the same goes for their business dealings. If they are too big, then they will not care for your well being as much as a smaller outfit with tighter control of their operation. If the person you are paying money to is not the guide, then in my opinion, someone is being a middle man for the cash, and therefore should not be part of the equation. It is the person you pay the money to who will really give you the best there is. That is my opinion.

And egos. If you smell an ego, avoid it. There are people who have come down here to "explore", and talk about their experiences as an explorer in the Yucatan. When you actually dig deeper, you find that they were here for three weeks only. How experienced is that? Really, to some it may be, but to me, it raises all sorts of questions. And why would people want to explore when they possess neither the skills, or experience? Because people who want their money let them. Commercial exploration, to me, is both dangerous and environmentally unsound (even though this was not a commercial exploration, it was a small but well dived cave system. But it does answer your question). I would much rather dive with someone who knows their local caves really well (we have hundreds), than someone who knows little and just wants to talk about exploring. It is an ego thing, and should be avoided in guides. Down here, there are only a handful of genuine explorers (its a huge committment thing, and non paying) who collect data for the scientific community. But you wouldn't really know it, because they don't really talk about it. They are professional, and know that modesty is the key.

So, are the guides protecting the systems or just collecting a fee for access? Are they promoting safe dive plans and providing an extra level of safety or just the opposite?, as you asked.

Yes, and quite a few. And they execise excellent decision making in choosing where to dive. They know the areas really well so they can do this. But they just might not be the local divers that are often talked about. You need to be here to make your decision, and ask around. Hidden amoung the Yucatan are some genuine high quality world class divers. They dive alot for their own pleasure, and work just enough to keep that alive. What they can offer as a result of this committment to caves in this area is a quality and rewarding experience, and their approach is based on professionalism and enthusiasm. Canadian, European as well as a few Mexican and American. They build teams, and safety is everything. Egos don't work with them. If anyone in your team hasn't seen the line before, then it is as good as exploration, and should be treated as such. There is so much cave here, that you can experience it all without putting yourself at any un-necessary risk over and above the one already assumed, or threatening the fragile cave environment. They are busy divers, who keep 50% of the diary free for diving for themselves. It is a pleasure diving with someone who you know dives the caves here all the time just for their own enjoyment, many days of the month, without paying customers. They have given up another, possibly good paying life, full of security just to to live and dive the cenotes. Just listening to what they have to say about diving here is worth paying for in itself.

Do they expect to look after you like a nanny on the dive? Get real. Do they want clients to do trust me dives? Forget it. Will they show you the best of professional cave diving in the worlds most beautiful underwater caving area? Absolutely. Don’t knock the guides here. The ones who live here and dive here that is. They know what they can’t do, but also know perfectly what they can do, and what they can do is prevent tragic dive plans like this from happening in the first place, as well as giving a first class service to their customers. They are not the people who drive the truck, and pay the fees. They are the ones who not only inform you about getting yourself in and out of an unfamiliar cave safely. but make that cave come alive for you. They are the ones who aren't after your money to get rich, but to enable themselves to continue diving here for just for the pleasure, and to pass that pleasure on to other generstions in the same state in which they found it. Please, think on that, and think on it long and hard.

Apart from that, I can't help you choose. In these things, it is usually local knowledge, and experienced caution.

Hasta Luego, D

[Kelly Jessop]

The thing is, whenever I go somewhere to dive, I seek local knowledge. , D

Good advice that I utilize at any cave system I am unfamiliar with or tunnel I've never seen before.

The guides of Mexico have provided me a good service,but with all things caveat emptor. I have had a guide ask me to do things that as a trained cave diver I am unwilling to do,even if it means missing the best section of the cave because we had to go back to get a reel. They want to give you a good experience,but you want to make sure this good experience is not at the expense of basic rules that insure survival.

[JohnTodd]

The newspaper saids Kent Hirsch was the guide.

David

No, I believe he was one of the deceased. The question still remains, who was the guide?

JT

[JoeyP]

Frogman wrote:
The newspaper saids Kent Hirsch was the guide.

JohnTodd wrote:

The question still remains, who was the guide





He was probably the one with 125 dives so by default they named him the guide.

Joe

[Aktun]

No, I believe he was one of the deceased. The question still remains, who was the guide?
So he was a deceased guide

[JohnTodd]

He was probably the one with 125 dives so by default they named him the guide.

Joe[/quote]

Right, but they were staying at DeRosa's. DeRosa's doesn't send their groups diving without a 'guide'. So who was the guide? The fact that it hasn't yet been addressed is interesting.

JT

[Al]

Right, but they were staying at DeRosa's. DeRosa's doesn't send their groups diving without a 'guide'. So who was the guide? The fact that it hasn't yet been addressed is interesting.

JT

Someone did at one point post the guide's name either here or at TDS, but I can't find it anywhere now.

[Al]

Someone did at one point post the guide's name either here or at TDS, but I can't find it anywhere now.

Sorry all, just found it - someone on TDS said it was Gary Lorey from DeRosas

[JoeyP]

JohnTodd wrote:
Right, but they were staying at DeRosa's. DeRosa's doesn't send their groups diving without a 'guide'. So who was the guide? The fact that it hasn't yet been addressed is interesting.



Agreed. But who would want to own up to being the "guide" on that dive?

[Dave]

There are several readers/posters from this site who obviously know something, yet still choose to sit back and say nothing......interesting, it speaks volumes.

[Dave Bell]

There are indeed people here that know what happened. I have seen the chat in the aftermath of accidents before, and there are times when I have known something, but I ask myself, why contribute? Does it really lead to any increased understanding or safety, or does it just contribute to the chaos of the internet? It has seemed to me that everyone uses the barest details of what is known to push his or her own agenda. If no details are involved, why not make some up?

If I have a detail, why would I throw it out for everyone to embellish?

So, if my agenda is that "my training is better than your training", I could launch into "Oh yeah some guys died, it's because their training was inadequate--mine is better and this could never happen to me" and go on to describe the "obvious" mistakes that the victims must have made in order to die, even though they don't have the slightist clue about what really happened.

I sure hope I never die in a cave and my widow has to be subject to reading all the critisism, finger pointing, speculation, and self serving crap that is put out. It is truly sickening to contemplate.

If people dont know what happened (and they dont) they should just not speculate until the facts are in, if they ever are.

I'm not really talking about this board. The moderators here shut things down before they get out of hand, and they should. I think it's because the moderators here have been involved with cave diving enough to know that all the finger pointing and wild speculation is totally inappropriate and leads down the wrong path--not the one that leads to understanding and knowledge.

Please don't contribute to the chaos by speculating. Maybe everyone will know what actually happened in this incident and maybe they won't. The fact remains that there are a couple of widows and some sad friends that need your support if you are able to give it.

I'm not really talking about this board. The moderators here shut things down before they get out of hand, and they should. I think it's because the moderators here have been involved with cave diving enough to know that all the finger pointing and wild speculation is totally inappropriate and leads down the wrong path--not the one that leads to understanding and knowledge.


I've stated this before on other boards, and I'll state it here:

"Ok.. if someone is taking notes...

For the record for me... speculate. Second Guess. Question. Accuse me of doing things I didn't do. Soil my good name. What do I care, I'm dead. Use my mistake to provoke thought and learn from what I did, or what you think I did, or what I might have done.... I'd rather be remembered and immortalized with learned lessons then to be forgotten as the lame-ass I was :)"

[resolute]

<snip>
Please don't contribute to the chaos by speculating. Maybe everyone will know what actually happened in this incident and maybe they won't. The fact remains that there are a couple of widows and some sad friends that need your support if you are able to give it.

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying here and while I personally have had (more than..) my share of writings on this matter, I hope that those tragically involved understand that it is only because we, like them, are looking for answers when answers are not that easy to find - so we all share that frustration to some extent.

We had two apparently very capable, well-trained and proficient cave divers not make it back. They each had made it back from numerous other cave dives without incident - but this one they didn't for whatever reason..

Like the family, friends and others directly impacted, we just hope to understand (if at all possible) what may have impacted these tragic results either directly or indirectly.

And believe me, I share the view that anyone who exploits a tragedy such as this to "push" any agenda is nothing more than cave slime.. There is an appropriate time and place to further one's agenda(s), but after a tragedy involving "one of our own" is certainly not that time.. Fact is, this type of event could happen to any one of us (no matter how foolproof you think your training and preparation is..), just like any one of us could be killed in a car wreck today.. and, although I would want anyone and everyone still left behind to learn anything they could from what I experienced, there are two ways to accomplish that objective - one involves class, dignity and respect for the deceased and their survivors, and one does not...

JB

[DeWayne]

You said what needed to be said quite well JB. 8)

As for folks learning from my own bad experiences, I wish that they would. Yet I continue to see the blue oval of death everywhere. Okay, not really pushing my own agenda with this as it is true. BTW, who was the spectre fellow?

[JohnTodd]

There are indeed people here that know what happened. I have seen the chat in the aftermath of accidents before, and there are times when I have known something, but I ask myself, why contribute? Does it really lead to any increased understanding or safety, or does it just contribute to the chaos of the internet? It has seemed to me that everyone uses the barest details of what is known to push his or her own agenda. If no details are involved, why not make some up?

If I have a detail, why would I throw it out for everyone to embellish?

So, if my agenda is that "my training is better than your training", I could launch into "Oh yeah some guys died, it's because their training was inadequate--mine is better and this could never happen to me" and go on to describe the "obvious" mistakes that the victims must have made in order to die, even though they don't have the slightist clue about what really happened.

I sure hope I never die in a cave and my widow has to be subject to reading all the critisism, finger pointing, speculation, and self serving crap that is put out. It is truly sickening to contemplate.

If people dont know what happened (and they dont) they should just not speculate until the facts are in, if they ever are.

I'm not really talking about this board. The moderators here shut things down before they get out of hand, and they should. I think it's because the moderators here have been involved with cave diving enough to know that all the finger pointing and wild speculation is totally inappropriate and leads down the wrong path--not the one that leads to understanding and knowledge.

Please don't contribute to the chaos by speculating. Maybe everyone will know what actually happened in this incident and maybe they won't. The fact remains that there are a couple of widows and some sad friends that need your support if you are able to give it.


Fair points, but some basic questions remain. Who really really was the guide, and why did they take 8 or 9 divers to a small, fragile system and plan a dive that appears to be a blind traverse.

JT

[MikeH]

For the record for me... speculate. Second Guess. Question. Accuse me of doing things I didn't do. Soil my good name. What do I care, I'm dead. Use my mistake to provoke thought and learn from what I did, or what you think I did, or what I might have done.... I'd rather be remembered and immortalized with learned lessons then to be forgotten as the lame-ass I was :)"

Same here. If I die in a cave, I ###### up. Plain and simple. Learn from it. You owe me nothing other than that.

Don't worry about giving me a bad reputation...I can do that all by myself! :-D

Mike

[BobK]

Please don't contribute to the chaos by speculating. Maybe everyone will know what actually happened in this incident and maybe they won't. The fact remains that there are a couple of widows and some sad friends that need your support if you are able to give it.

That's true, and it is a tragic incident for both the victims and the survivors. But, as a cave diver, I really really want to know what went wrong on that dive. The discussion I have read so far seems to be fair and raises some issues to think about. I don't think that's a bad thing. Speculation, by itself, is not an evil concept. Wild speculation, or speculation with an agenda, are what I think you dislike, and I agree with you. This forum seems to keep those to a minimum. But as you know, oftentimes the only way to try and figure out what happened on a bad dive is public speculation. The more data that is available, the less the speculation. But most divers want to end up with a cause and effect concept on dives like this. Diver A did something, Diver B did something, Diver A was OOG due to that something, or whatever. If we can't discuss it here, we are all going to do a small version of that on our own, without sharing our ideas, and end up with varying conclusions. At least if we speculate in public, there are others with lots of experience who can support or refute those ideas. That kind of discussion, even though speculative, will eventually lead to some supportable idea of the sequence of events for a given incident. Will it be the correct sequence ? We may never know. But it is likely to be closer than anything many of us would come up with on our own.

[JoeyP]

BobKwrote

....Speculation, by itself, is not an evil concept. Wild speculation, or speculation with an agenda, are what I think you dislike.....

I agree. Discussion is a tool by which we learn. People read these forums and share information and ideas. Even if the speculative thought is totally incorrect with respect to what happened it will still define potentially deadly scenarios which may serve to save someone from making that particular mistake. For example, in this instance, lets say that the size of the group, nine divers, had no impact on the accident. It is still not a good idea to put nine people in a cave and hopefully some who perhaps were not aware of that will think twice before joining a large group.

When the discussion is about something that really happened it takes on a much greater significance than the same discussion about a hypothetical situation and is IMO a more valuable learning tool.

[Mart]

I just came across the dis cussion about the Calimba accident.
I don't want to cotribute to the discussion about who was to blame, and who was the guide. I know who the guide was, and no one will ever know exactly what went wrong and why.
But I can understand why cave divers want to know as much as possible about any accident: this is a form of self preservation, call it personal accident analysis.
I did dive in this system quite often, last time around christmas, and have followed the same dive plan as this group several times. So for the ones who don't know the system or only have a vague recollection of it ("I don't remember any big jump on the way to Grand Cenote, but they changed all the lines last time"), here goes.
The system was explored from Cenote Ho Tul, and the original main line went from Ho Tul into al passage called Paso De Lagarto. Later this was changed, Grand Cenote became the main entrance and the main line now is from GC to Ho Tul, the Paso De Lagarto is now a jump. At this jump the arrows change, two pointing to Ho Tul, one back to Grand Cenote. The jump is a big one, I don't know why, but it is not difficult to find.
The Paso De Lagarto leads to Muchs Maze, a figure 8, but the main line passes through this without Ts, only jumps. You then enter the Paso De Los Dos Pozos.
Later Cenote Calimba and Cenote Bosh Chen were explored. It is important to understand the group of nine entered the system from this side, and because it was not originally explored from here the lines make less sense than they do from GC.
From what I heard the group entered the system from Cenote Calimba, in two groups (4 and 5). The main line ends with a snap n gap to the Paso de Los Dos Pozos (or you can take a jump to the right and also loop onto the Paso). They took a left there, and after a minute came to the (left again) jump to the Bosh Chen line. This line leads to the cenote and then loops back onto itself with a small jump. So if you put in the jump line on the way to the cenote you can do a small circuit, take out the line and go back to the Paso. This is what they probably did, as it is the nicest way to do this dive.
From Calimba to Bosh Chen takes less than thirds, so this not a "trust me" dive, maybe the little loop in the bosh Chen line, but this is done after the cenote, where you can recalculate, and once completed you are back on familiar ground.
Back at the jump to the Paso is where things went wrong, the group of four took a left instead of right, following the arrow pointing towards Grand Cenote and Ho Tul instead of the personal marker they probably put in on the way in. Now they followed this line through Muchs Maze, into the Paso De Lagarto. Somewhere during this swim they must have realized this was not the right tunnel: clear water (but there is not much percolation or silt here anyway), no ceiling bubbles, wrong markers (but all of them pointing in their direction) and different cave, the Paso De Lagarta is very different from the Calimba and Bosh Chen lines.
Maybe they decided with all arrows pointing out even if they were lost this was probably the best bet. Whatever they thought, after some time they came to the jump at the end of the Paso De Lagarto. The line ends with an arrow, so they must have known there is a jump there. From there the big jump (remember!) would have taken them to either Ho Tul, or Grand Cenote. Bosh Chen-Grand Cenote is possible on thirds, but only if you are good on air. But it is possible for any cave diver on the two thirds they must have had left at Bosh Chen. However, they did not find the Grand Cenote-Ho Tul line, which is a long jump, in a very large passage, so it is possible to swim in a wrong direction and miss this line.
After this they tuned around, retracing their steps into Muchs Maze and the Paso De Los Dos Pozos. I am not sure what happened, but they must have found the snap n gap to Calimba, as two of the four made it out, sharing air for the last part. The other two also shared air until the supply ran out. Thet were found a few 100 feet in from Calimba.
I hope this description will help some cave divers, not by speculating about who did what wrong, but by reconsidering their own diving habits. I know I did, thinking hard about how to manage such a dive safely, where to put in markers and how many, would I share lines with two groups etc.
And before anyone starts again about nine divers in Calimba, yes I totally agree you should not do this. I did it once with a team of three and for me this is the absolute maximum in this part of the cave. Recently we did the traverse from Grand Cenote to Cenote Pabilanny, this dive reminds you of how beuatiful Calimba was before.

safe diving, Mart

[JE]

nuno

[Mart]

************************************************** ***********
************************************************** ***********
~Translation~
Dec. 09, 2004
"Ken Hirsch & Mike Nast died from a lack of air in their tanks. Both bodies were found by recovery divers & handed over to the local police. Both divers were considered in-experienced open water divers-!"
"Investestigator Luis Ceme confiirmed that both bodies were found asphyzied from a lack of air-!"
This is a translation from a Latin American who speaks & understands Spanish-![/quote]

Please stop posting rumors like this: bad translations from unreliable news reports.
These divers have friends and relatives, you know

[DeWayne]

Just goes to prove, no matter what the language the media will usually report it wrong :roll: I agree with Mart, no need for such as this with all that has already come out regarding this tragic accident. :(

[Aktun]

Official report of the accident in the iucrr web site (http://iucrr.org/reports.htm)

[Bobby]

Ok three things to say & it is personal opinion.

One: the team size did not contribute to the incident as far as facts go. Look at the report there was not confusion because of too many team members.

Two: Line protocol contributed to assumptions but not the incident. Two teams depended on one line marker (non-directional) to mark that the other team was out. With this incident the other 5 man team took the mark correctly due to the fact that the 4 man team had made the jump back to the secondary line as was the dive plan.

Third: Line protocol did contribute to the incident but the line protocols are not specific and there is a lot of dissagreement with in the international community.

How was line protocal an issue with #3? When placing a non-directional maker to make a jump with directional arrows pointing to an alternate exit from which the team came from there is not a specific protocal to set exit direction for the team.

Personal agenda: Yes there is work on going to review and possibly change the international protocals. Yes I believe that some things should be changed but I do not make the decisions or want to. I do think that a major part of this incident was due to procedures that need to be reviewed and changed. From a training stand point what happened with today's standards and how protocals are defined it is something that could happen with out going outside of training or standards.

Bobby

[JE]

************************************************** ***********
************************************************** ***********
~Translation~
Dec. 09, 2004
Both bodies were found by recovery divers & handed over to the local police. Both divers were considered in-experienced open water divers-!"
"Investestigator Luis Ceme confiirmed that both bodies were found asphyzied from a lack of air-!"
This is a translation from a Latin American who speaks & understands Spanish-!


Hey Mart,

You're right, this was a poor translation on my part...I tried to re-tract it, but couldn't erase what you quoted. I did read the IUCRR report, & have a understanding now, of what really happened. I humbly apologize for my above post. I was merely trying to provide a translated version for everyone; No harm was intentionally made. My sincere sympathy to the familys concerned with these losses.

Jack

[Widiver_Paul]

I can see why the teams became disoriented; Reading the reports and IUCRR is very confusing, this can only be a dive that should be attempted by persons with incremental familiarity with the system, not something that can be effectively imparted with a "stick drawing in the sand". I still don't have a grasp of the orientation after spending probably an hour total of reading 3-4 descriptions of the layout. It makes sense jumping the snap 'n gap to the paso del legarta line, after that it makes no sense.

[Gary]

I edited a picture of the cave map that may add some perspective to this dive accident.

http://cavediver.net/photopost/data/521/24Calimba_Dive-med.jpg

[Gary]

It makes sense jumping the snap 'n gap to the paso del legarta line, after that it makes no sense.

The last dive we did in Mexico (Thursday) we did at Grand Cenote. It takes a couple jumps to get to the main line because the cavern is set up for cavern tours (as are most sites in Mexico) and the original exploration spread in different directions then is probably now common use for touring.

It was relitively easy to get onto the main line and swim up past the Calimba jump. We brought stages and dropped them at the long gap so we'd have plenty of time to look around (I think the team that died did the same dive and distance without the stage 2 days before their accident).

The lines aren't that hard to figure out - but thier decisions leading up to the accident are. If they were going the wrong way on purpose they should have probably turned around at thrids (rather then waiting until past halves and the end of the line). If they were making a traverse back to Grande Cenote they should have kept going. If they didn't intend to go that way how could they have made the mistake of going the wrong way when it was pretty obvious line, marked by them and pretty clearly different passage then the one they came in on.

The lines I drew are probably not exactly correct. We checked out the jumps (especially the Bosh Chen jump which was pretty obvious) and didn't go into the Calimba Section because it is much more highly decorated and supposedly harder to navigate. The snap and gap has been removed since the accident as well.

It would seem hard not to realize they weren't on that line since ithe passage they were in was bigger, straiter and didn't have the snap and gap jump they came in on - plus they'd just dove the system 2 days before.

[Dan Thoms]

One "heck" of a cave,. What depths do you see? very decroative? looks amazing. What were you looking at for bottom time? Is this one of the "Main" caves in Mex that is frequently used? apears that it goes on forever, branching and twisting. In comparision to Peacock, something that i can relate too, for distance.And jumps. Kinda makes my hair on the back of my neck stand.. :D great picture, by the way.

[Gary]

The portion I edited was a subset of a much larger map. The large map I have claims 56,000' of surveyed passage (comprising the dashed area) but is itself is a subset of the larger area map below.

Grand Cenote is just a little dot on the area map but the lines representing the passageways can still be made out.

We spent 124 minutes swimming from Grand Cenote to our turn and back with 41 feet max, 35 average - plus a saftey stop (no deco). At 77F with no warm halocline to play in it was one of the "colder" dives - but still pretty warm and comfortable.

We have a lot of dive lgging to catch up on from the trip but we'll try to get a trip report put together once we do.

http://www.caves.org/project/qrss/sacactun1.gif

[Al]

The last dive we did in Mexico (Thursday) we did at Grand Cenote. It takes a couple jumps to get to the main line because the cavern is set up for cavern tours (as are most sites in Mexico) and the original exploration spread in different directions then is probably now common use for touring.

Gary, did you jump off the cavern lines, or run a line from daylight to the main lines?

[Dan Thoms]

Very understandable, thank you. Thats increadable

thanks

[Moonfuzzy]

Gary, did you jump off the cavern lines, or run a line from daylight to the main lines?

We did not run the reel from the (gold) cavern line, as there were several cavern divers around that could have tried to follow it. We ran a reel from the daylight zone to the 'mainline', which is white cave line and not gold line. I found it interesting that several of the entrances in Mexico were actually caverns partially filled with water, so you could be in a cavern (with no direct sunlight) and open water at the same time.

[Mart]

Naval is now connected to Abejas as well, the connection was made by Robbie Schmittner.

[Gary]

Naval is now connected to Abejas as well, the connection was made by Robbie Schmittner.

That's got to bring the passage total for the system significantly more then 100,000 I'm sure.