Deco training before Apprentice?

[DeepBound]

I took a Cave Apprentice class, and at the discretion of my instructor, was allowed to do some light deco dives even though I haven't taken an 'advanced nitrox/deco' course yet.

I'm just wondering if this is typical in cave country? I know people up here in Ontario have been hassling me a bit about having a deco bottle with Oxygen in it without the advanced nitrox certification. I'm working on that cert now, as recommended by my instructor and the CDS manual, but I was kind of taken by surprise when people expressed concern that I had done something wrong taking Apprentice before deco procedures.

Can anyone comment on whether this is standard or typical in north florida?

Thanks

[chimie007]

Deco in the ocean is much more difficult than in a cave. More risks of exceeding your MOD in the ocean with no hard bottom and lack of visual references. Often involves deeper stops and more complex deco profiles.

IMHO Anyone that learned to deco in the ocean can deco in a cave right away but the opposite is not true unless you have a lot of experience at it.

I have the same reticense as these people about you carrying an O2 bottle. Are you breathing it or just carrying to practice with stage ? If it's just to practice with a stage then I'm fine with it. Why not fill it with EAN32 and label it 120. Then you can practice gas switches.

If you are breathing it, it's very easy to exceed your MOD when on O2. Also, most people decoying in the ocean will start with EAN50. In most cases, it is a better deco gas to start with. If you need faster deco then you add the O2 on top of the EAN50. Using only O2 for deco is better suited for shallow (130-120' less) cave dives on EAN32.

Take the class as you said.

[DeepBound]

I have the same reticense as these people about you carrying an O2 bottle. Are you breathing it or just carrying to practice with stage ? If it's just to practice with a stage then I'm fine with it. Why not fill it with EAN32 and label it 120. Then you can practice gas switches.
[...]
Take the class as you said.
I actually just brought it in for its annual Viz, with oxygen in it and a OXYGEN 20 sticker on it. I didn't use it at all since I got back. I did ask one dive shop if my apprentice cave cert. would allow me to buy oxygen. I haven't used it since I got back from cave country.
Anyway, I'm taking a full advanced nitrox/deco class now so soon I can fill it with O2 again :)
Thanks for the advice.

[GDI]

Deepbound I recommend that all my students take a Adv Nitrox Deco class before getting into Apprentice. In some cases I suggest doing it before cavern even if the student plans on going straight through to full cave, but that is rare.

Having the number of wreck dives as I do in addition to the caves I tailor the classes to a more general application of the skill set, I agree with Chimie007 to some degree of the differences between cave and blue water diving techniques.

[Jim Wyatt]

I think taking advanced nitrox & decompression procedures before apprentice is a good idea too. However, many take apprentice without these 2 classes & do just fine.

[BobK]

I think taking advanced nitrox & decompression procedures before apprentice is a good idea too. However, many take apprentice without these 2 classes & do just fine.

I took advanced nitrox and decompresson procedures sometime after full cave. From the divers I've talked to, I think this isn't too unusual. Math is math. Doing 100% O2 in 20 ft or less is not rocket science, air breaks are well known, and if you can't hold you're stop depths you shouldn't be doing deco dives anyway.

My 0.02

[sarge89]

I think it's a matter of choice, I have talked to those who took cave training first and did fine and I am one of the ones who took technical classes prior to doing cave, I like that way. I think no matter which way you go as long as you are learning during each phase and you go at your pace you will do fine. Many times the latter class whether it be deco class or cave class is easier because you have more experience before doing it. Just my thoughts on the matter.:arrowgreen

[rjack]

I think it's a matter of choice, I have talked to those who took cave training first and did fine and I am one of the ones who took technical classes prior to doing cave, I like that way. I think no matter which way you go as long as you are learning during each phase and you go at your pace you will do fine. Many times the latter class whether it be deco class or cave class is easier because you have more experience before doing it. Just my thoughts on the matter.:arrowgreen

I found this to be the case as well. Class 2 was quite a bit easier than class 1. I don't <think> it matters much whether its deco then cave or cave then deco. Obviously with only one lifetime to work with I only got to try deco then cave. :)

[OneBrightGator]

Can anyone comment on whether this is standard or typical in north florida?
It was, but it's my opinion that it is changing. Back in the day, it was "these are the dives, plan accordingly" even further back, a friend of mine sub-ed out Adv. Nitrox and Deco Prod. for Full Cave and went straight to Trimix. I'm pretty sure there was discussion and it may be required by standards to have Adv. Nitrox and Deco Prod. before Full Cave.

The difference between a "no deco" cave dive and a deco cave dive is really just how long you stay at 20'. By the time you're a full cave diver, it shouldn't present a problem.

[runawaylobster]

While the practical aspects appear simpler in the cave environment as mentioned by Raphael, and as Jim says, some people do fine I think the understanding of decompression and it's effects on your body is lacking without proper training. Note both of these folks also reccommended getting the training. Bubbles? Ok we all know what those are but there is much to learn on the more subtle aspects. There is a tremendous amount of really confusing and conflicting information posted on the internet which I believe is why some of the older methods and all those myths and legends get perpetuated.

The training should give you the ability to make informed decisions about what you are doing when you choose a decompression schedule as opposed to simply following what the computer or table tells you to do. Definitely a plus in my humble opinion.

LL

[Slüdge]

the understanding of decompression and its effects on your body is lacking without proper training.

I'm conflicted with this. In my day, this was thoroughly covered in Open Water. Of course, this was a six-week NASDS course. I am fully aware that nobody teaches a comparable course these days. I think that's a shame.


I've read textbooks for "Advanced Deco" and could find no new information that I didn't already know from Open Water and Full Cave.

[runawaylobster]

I'm conflicted with this. In my day, this was thoroughly covered in Open Water. Of course, this was a six-week NASDS course. I am fully aware that nobody teaches a comparable course these days. I think that's a shame.


I've read textbooks for "Advanced Deco" and could find no new information that I didn't already know from Open Water and Full Cave.

no need to be conflicted.. your education is an anomaly. I too trained for several months vis BSAC to get certified originally but it's just not the same today.

LL

[Slüdge]

The conflict lies mainly in the fact that I work in two dive shops, both of which you can walk into and have a C-card in your hand in under a week. But apparently, if they didn't allow that, they wouldn't be in business long. It's the "I want it NOW" mentality.

In addition to everything taught now, we learned deco theory, regulator design theory (such as the differences between balanced and unbalanced, piston vs. diaphragm), how the moon affects tides, reading waves for beach entry... We also learned to read the actual Navy Tables.:garfield

[chimie007]

. It's the "I want it NOW" mentality.

That problem is also coming from the "lowest bidder" way of doing things. People take training like a commodity and will go for the lowest price. In the end a PADI card is a PADI card no matter what you have paid. I don't think it's that way in tech too much but it definitely is like that for OW.

Most people look at the total price instead of looking at cost benefit. It's the Walmart way. Cheapest as possible regardless of quality.

[rjack]

It's the Walmart way. Cheapest as possible regardless of quality.

Throw away toasters, throw away body??
:))

[MORGAN]

...have a C-card in your hand in under a week.

A week? It takes that long? There's at least one place that advertises a two day OW course - OW certification in a weekend.

I really lucked out when I started diving - not long ago - in 2001. My instructor was a commercial and cave diver, and when Tracy and I signed up he talked with us to find out what we wanted and what sort of diving we intended to do. When he found out that we were serious about it, and already (as old dry cavers) thinking of cave diving, he came up with a plan for us and one other student that included OW, AOW, rescue, nitrox, and dry suit as all one package. We did 32 open water dives in training, and quite a few strenuous pool sessions. He was happy to have students that wanted to learn everything they could, and put a lot of extra material, drills, etc. into the course. He charged us less for the package than for the individual courses, even though he put a lot more time into it. At the same time he was teaching the standard minimalistic OW courses for people who wanted those and weren't interested in more. He said more than once that all basic SCUBA training should be done this way, but that too many people wanted, and too many agencies were willing to offer, the shortest, cheapest and easiest courses possible. I've benefitted from the great basic training I got ever since.

Mike

PS: Re the OP - I took advanced nitrox before intro cave, and deco procedures after full cave. I didn't plan it that way; that's just the way it worked out. Seems to have worked out OK.

[aainslie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo&eurl=http://www.wikio.co.uk/video/113591

[runawaylobster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo&eurl=http://www.wikio.co.uk/video/113591

ROFL!!! I love that.

LL

[Slüdge]

That has always been one of my favorites. An old girlfriend and I had a standing joke. Whenever someone around us would say something that was an obvious exaggeration, one of us would look at the other and say, "Or tea." :smt081

[MORGAN]

Aye, has always been a favourite of oors as well. O' course, when I were a lad, we 'adn't a telly to watch t' Flying Circus on - we lived in an 'ole in the road, and 'ad to watch an owd cigar box and pretend it were a telly...

Mike

[guru caver]

I took a Cave Apprentice class, and at the discretion of my instructor, was allowed to do some light deco dives even though I haven't taken an 'advanced nitrox/deco' course yet.

I'm just wondering if this is typical in cave country? I know people up here in Ontario have been hassling me a bit about having a deco bottle with Oxygen in it without the advanced nitrox certification. I'm working on that cert now, as recommended by my instructor and the CDS manual, but I was kind of taken by surprise when people expressed concern that I had done something wrong taking Apprentice before deco procedures.

Can anyone comment on whether this is standard or typical in north florida?

Thanks

The first thing you should know is that nothing is standard or typical here in North Florida. (NOTHING)
The second thing...no matter what you do there will always be a mob to criticize you. Just remember, there is no such thing as too much training!