Inflammatory posts

[FW]

The new rule #6 says: Comments about individuals, agencies, organizations and businesses will be removed if found to be inflammatory or cause the discussion to be uncivil.

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.

[Puttzer]

And who is surprised?

Can we not create a separate forum where anything goes and everyone can be as arrogent, nasty and stupid as they want?

Then most of the forum users can stay in the main forum for useful, courteous information and only go this "other place" whenever they choose.

[FW]

The moderators discussed that, and I think we may discuss it again. I think I can give you a very short list of the users of that forum :-)

We could call it the "griping and bellyaching" forum :twisted:

[Angie Reim]

I vote to name it "The Whiners Circle". :smt091

[Gary]

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.
Gee all I did was suggest how we could bring Peacock into line with the policies of other state parks. :twisted:

The other post I made mentioned some online prices for Trimix courses I had found and wondered about what the price others had found for normoxic Trimix. I have no idea why that post was deleted.

[Angie Reim]

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.
Gee all I did was suggest how we could bring Peacock into line with the policies of other state parks. :twisted:

Yeah. I figured you were trying to be funny. Unfortunately not everyone (not implying FW or any other mod!) can take a joke.

You mentioned hyperoxic trimix. This was a typo, right?

Then again, I'm not surprised at anything anybody does any more.

[FW]

The other post I made mentioned some online prices for Trimix courses I had found and wondered about what the price others had found for normoxic Trimix. I have no idea why that post was deleted.
I suppose it was an accident that you picked an old, and volatile, thread to ask your question in?

[Gary]

You mentioned hyperoxic trimix. This was a typo, right?
No - I found a price online for hyperoxic Trimix course ("recreational trimix") $249 for depths of 80-130'
and inquired about what prices others had found for Normoxic Trimix.

The reason is was posted in a long dead thread was because it branched off a question about allowed certifications at a particular site (which I don't dare name here for fear of being "banned").

No mistake: this was a sincere and reasonable question completely ontopic to the thread (and deserved a fair answer from other posters).

[Wizard]

Just a suggestion for the new forum title, Crybaby Cavern? :)

[Ken Hill]

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.


PERSONALLY, I am a little disturbed that the thread regarding Emerald was closed. Despite the references to whining there were several people that had an honest interest in making the place more accessible.

The key in my mind is people with an interest that need to be cultivated to volunteer and learn from the mistakes and the success of others. To turn off that dialogue is a mistake. Kelley was right when he asked for people to PM him. Before they do that they have to feel that their voices will be heard.

My money rests with the next generation of cave divers and so what if they are aggressive ... that's good. Us old guys could and should keep a "choker collar" on them until they're ready to meet and greet the state reps and park managers. It's a mistake to stifle enthusiasm. We're supposed to be here to mentor not only diving but the public perception, governance and discipline of our sport. My .02

/Ken

[Kelly Jessop]

they are aggressive

Perhaps cautiously assertive

[Angie Reim]

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.


PERSONALLY, I am a little disturbed that the thread regarding Emerald was closed. Despite the references to whining there were several people that had an honest interest in making the place more accessible.

The key in my mind is people with an interest that need to be cultivated to volunteer and learn from the mistakes and the success of others. To turn off that dialogue is a mistake. Kelley was right when he asked for people to PM him. Before they do that they have to feel that their voices will be heard.

My money rests with the next generation of cave divers and so what if they are aggressive ... that's good. Us old guys could and should keep a "choker collar" on them until they're ready to meet and greet the state reps and park managers. It's a mistake to stifle enthusiasm. We're supposed to be here to mentor not only diving but the public perception, governance and discipline of our sport. My .02

/Ken

I believe the thread was not locked due to the subject matter but locked because it was heading toward a flame war or generalized state park bashing. Assertive is good. Choker collars are for the aggressive. The thread was no longer producing much else. Note that it was locked - not deleted. :-)

My whiners comment was just me being silly. Sorry if I offended.

PM Forrest for further info. That's all I know. :smt102

[Ken Hill]

I believe the thread was not locked due to the subject matter but locked because it was heading toward a flame war or generalized state park bashing. Assertive is good. Choker collars are for the aggressive. The thread was no longer producing much else. Note that it was locked - not deleted. :-)

My whiners comment was just me being silly. Sorry if I offended.




Curious about how a a thread gets locked. Does it take one moderator, a majority, or do you have to have a quorum. I guess I am being "assertive" here (your term) because the term "choker collar" came to mind when I saw the thread closed.

Some of posters made valid points and in the long run for any of us to succeed their volunteer help or organizational support is needed and should not be discouraged. My .02 /Ken

Curious about how a thread gets locked.

We each have "The Button." :twisted:

Actually, Ken, we have a private forum that only moderators can access. Whenever a problem seems to be arising, believe me, it gets discussed. Thread locking is usually the result of three or four moderators agreeing that it needs to be locked. But any moderator can act unilaterally.

It only takes one incident of unilateral action to humble a guy, though. Trust me.

[Mike]

Seems to me this is becoming the whiners forum. :-D
Let's change the subject & talk about road kill. :P

Mike M

[Mike]

Dang Sludge,

I don't have that button.
But than again I'm not a moderator on these forums.
I'm a sub moderator I guess.
But I know the subject you talk about, you did your best with the circumstances.

Mike M

[aainslie]

You mentioned hyperoxic trimix. This was a typo, right?

Then again, I'm not surprised at anything anybody does any more.

There are a couple of agencies that offer courses where you use a "thin" trimix - NAUI offers one where you use up to (if I recall) 20% He at up to 150 ft depth - something like a 26/17 mix might be in there. It's really just a warm-up to full trimix at the end of a deco/extended range class to whet the student's appetite. The "hyperoxic" I suppose comes from having more than 21% O2.

[FW]

PERSONALLY, I am a little disturbed that the thread regarding Emerald was closed. Despite the references to whining there were several people that had an honest interest in making the place more accessible.
/Ken

We let that thread stay open for that very reason. It wasn't untill it became a "anti state park" thread, and was getting personal, that it was locked.

There are still a couple of other threads along the same lines that are still open, like "strategies for opening dive sites", and a legitimate question about which trimix cards are accepted at Emerald.

[Ken Hill]

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.


We let that thread stay open for that very reason. It wasn't untill it became a "anti state park" thread, and was getting personal, that it was locked.

Forrest, Slüdge and Angie,

My concern is any unilateral decision to stop a thread. In previous posts (and in the midst of their complaints) Gary and OneBright Gator made some valid points about their concerns about diving access to previously closed sites. I share their concern that there is no universal criteria regarding access to the state parks. To quote Angie, assertive is good. There are ways to be assertive without alienating the park system or whining.

Perhaps the best way is membership in any or all of the different parks CSO programs. Peacock is a cave divers CSO, therefore it has a cave divers say as to what goes on there. What do you think would happen if 500 cave divers joined the Wakulla CSO ... would their be a balance of power shift? Would that CSO have cave diving items on their meeting agenda? Could there be more cave diving with more appropriate access rules allowed? There is a whole new generation of cave divers that need to become involved. Harm is caused when their voices are not heard! Gains are made when their ideas are channeled into thinking within a direction that works within the bureaucracy? My message is closed but the topic needs to continue.


/Ken

[FW]

Perhaps the best way is membership in any or all of the different parks CSO programs. Peacock is a cave divers CSO, therefore it has a cave divers say as to what goes on there. What do you think would happen if 500 cave divers joined the Wakulla CSO ... would their be a balance of power shift? Would that CSO have cave diving items on their meeting agenda? Could there be more cave diving with more appropriate access rules allowed? There is a whole new generation of cave divers that need to become involved. Harm is caused when their voices are not heard! Gains are made when their ideas are channeled into thinking within a direction that works within the bureaucracy? My message is closed but the topic needs to continue.


/Ken
That is a great suggestion, but they need to be aware that things don't happen overnight :-)

[Ken Hill]

That is a great suggestion, but they need to be aware that things don't happen overnight :-)

Very true Forrest, even years is almost an understatement! /K

[DeWayne]

And who is surprised?

Can we not create a separate forum where anything goes and everyone can be as arrogent, nasty and stupid as they want?

Then most of the forum users can stay in the main forum for useful, courteous information and only go this "other place" whenever they choose.

But such a place already exists (Karl's forum). It is interesting to note that despite the lack of moderation and cencorship that everyone continually complains about, there is very little traffic making use of that panacea of internet exchange. I guess when everyone else can be as arrogant, nasty, and as stupid as they want in return, the prospect of true freedom of speech looses it appeal.

[OneBrightGator]

We let that thread stay open for that very reason. It wasn't untill it became a "anti state park" thread, and was getting personal, that it was locked.
Could you please site which post(s) were anti state park?

My issues are with the regulations at this one particular park, which were set by information provided by cave divers, not state park employees (at least that's the impression I have). Just because I wish things could be "better" doesn't mean I am anti state park, much to the contrary, I am very pro-state park.

[Kelly Jessop]

My issues are with the regulations at this one particular park, which were set by information provided by cave divers, not state park employees .

Actually you'd be surprised how savvy people who are in recreational / resource management can be when it comes to understanding a particular activity. Even some of their own manuals are very specific with a clear enlightenment about diving activities,that didn't come from the cave diving community.

Good to see you Saturday.

[bletso]

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.

My money rests with the next generation of cave divers and so what if they are aggressive ... that's good. Us old guys could and should keep a "choker collar" on them until they're ready to meet and greet the state reps and park managers. It's a mistake to stifle enthusiasm. We're supposed to be here to mentor not only diving but the public perception, governance and discipline of our sport. My .02

/Ken


My whiners comment was just me being silly. Sorry if I offended.
:smt102

First, the last place I would put my money is with the next generation of cave divers, particularly if they take up diving with the same attitude as they do in the main realm of life period. But then, they probably wouldn't last long and Darwin would win and the we as group would loose.

Cave diving does take a certain amount of maturity to survive. Training isn't the only criteria to sucessful cave or technical diving.

Second, Angie, your whiners comment was appropriate. It actually relates to my first paragraph. The next generation is more prone to it.
They, (as a generalized group) like to whine and complain rather than do the hard work proper training takes to survive in the alien environment we so love.

The number of newbe's I see who run off to easy environments to take certain advance courses over taking them local far outnumber those who take their training is the more hostile local environments. It shows. The next generation does definately prefer the short cut method.


Dale

[Ken Hill]

First, the last place I would put my money is with the next generation of cave divers, particularly if they take up diving with the same attitude as they do in the main realm of life period. But then, they probably wouldn't last long and Darwin would win and the we as group would loose.

Cave diving does take a certain amount of maturity to survive. Training isn't the only criteria to sucessful cave or technical diving.



Dale, I see your point but disagree with what you said. I believe that the mentoring of new divers is not only helping with their progression in the water but also to ensure the future management of the sport.

OneBrtGator wrote, "My issues are with the regulations at this one particular park, which were set by information provided by cave divers, not state park employees ." His concern hits the nail on the head as seen in the 229 page "Florida's Statewide Comprehensive Outdoor Plan 2000." In that whole document Cave Diving can be found in one paragraph.


FLORIDA’S OUTDOOR RECREATION VISION

Florida’s ideal outdoor recreation system will be a diverse, balanced system of outdoor recreation resources and suppliers that provides the citizens of the state and visitors--regardless of their location in the state, economic status, age, gender, ethnic background, or physical or mental disability--with a full range of outdoor recreation opportunities. The system will be coordinated at the state level with all agencies working in harmony, and with ample opportunity for public participation in decision making. It will have an educational component to promote understanding and appreciation of the state’s outdoor recreation resources.

Non-Trail Recreation

The following recommendations were drafted in response to perceived needs expressed by the public for specific types of recreation or support facilities. All parts of the state may not have needs in these specific areas. Recreation providers should review the recommendations and evaluate local needs prior to taking any action.

4. Cave diving is an activity engaged in by a relatively small number of Floridians and tourists. Because of the dangers involved, and the concern that divers might damage sensitive underwater resources, there are a number of potentially suitable areas where this activity is prohibited. Cave diving advocates have expressed a desire to expand the number of areas where cave diving is allowed and have suggested that guided tours and restricting use to those who meet certain proficiency standards may be a way to meet this need. Recreation providers should work with cave diving groups to see if there are ways to safely increase opportunities for this activity in ways that do not degrade the resource.


Florida's Statewide Comprehensive Outdoor Plan 2000 is the sole reference for actions by the DEP regarding cave diving activities. The limited attention given to cave diving and the latitude it gives to the individual park managers should be a clue on how hard we have to work. The last paragraph tells the park manager it is all right to have cave divers become a part of their process. The best way I know how to do that is for cave divers to become an important part of the Park's CSO's. Therefore Gator, join that parks CSO and recruit other like minded people to do the same so are in a position to suggest a rewrite of the policies. To not do that makes any complaint you make about access a waste of time. You have to get involved so get involved!

/Ken

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/Parks/planning/parkplans/SCORP-2000.pdf

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/Parks/OIRS/forms/Chap6SCORP.doc

[Angie Reim]

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.

My money rests with the next generation of cave divers and so what if they are aggressive ... that's good. Us old guys could and should keep a "choker collar" on them until they're ready to meet and greet the state reps and park managers. It's a mistake to stifle enthusiasm. We're supposed to be here to mentor not only diving but the public perception, governance and discipline of our sport. My .02

/Ken


My whiners comment was just me being silly. Sorry if I offended.
:smt102

..............Second, Angie, your whiners comment was appropriate. It actually relates to my first paragraph. The next generation is more prone to it.
They, (as a generalized group) like to whine and complain rather than do the hard work proper training takes to survive in the alien environment we so love.

The number of newbe's I see who run off to easy environments to take certain advance courses over taking them local far outnumber those who take their training is the more hostile local environments. It shows. The next generation does definately prefer the short cut method.......


Dale

Dale I appreciated the support, however; I truly was just trying to be funny/silly with making a play on words.

If you wish to make blanket statements that all younger people are whiners, that is YOUR statement and NOT MINE. Some people are whiners and it has nothing to do with chronological age. I personally have no interest in a flame war as such. Yes younger people are different than those of my generation. I had a different upbringing. It's the same for every generation and so and so on. But each has their own trials by fire too.

So I take each person as they come.

That being said - I have noticed in my own children, who are teenagers, that there is a set tendency toward avoiding hard work. Then it hit me!!! Are not many time-saving ideas and inventions based upon that very fundamental human drive? Maybe it's a stage we all must go through! Sooner or later maturity comes and we recognize there is no getting around it for certain goals, but imagine if the internet, et al were around when I was young. Awesome time saving tools. Thank God I'm old enough to shift through the fact from fiction (mostly). 8)

Angie

[Angie Reim]

FWIW, I think that Kelly Jessop has it right. Getting involved with state park CSO's has got to be a seriously positive and helpful step toward getting dive sites open and rules/regulations palatable for cavedivers.

The local authorities for each park have a surprisingly liberal range of choices that can be made for their own sites. Possibly because no site in nature is exactly the same as another. Each needs feedback to help make decisions regarding the management of a site.

Ya'll think about that. :-)

[Gary]

That being said - I have noticed in my own children, who are teenagers, that there is a set tendency toward avoiding hard work. Then it hit me!!! Are not many time-saving ideas and inventions based upon that very fundamental human drive? Maybe it's a stage we all must go through! Sooner or later maturity comes and we recognize there is no getting around it for certain goals.
It's not limited to children and we adults are not immune to it either. I mean: how many people of our generation still walked to school in the snow, with no shoes on - up-hill - both ways. We could have done so but who would walk when we could ride the bus. Who would wait for the bus rather then ride in the car.

Why would you work hard to get access if you can simply whine your way around restrictions. Why work with the park if you think you can change the rules that govern them. Why take a hard course when you can take and easy one. Why learn to swim before buying a scooter. Why dive anywhere but Ginnie and Peacock if it takes time and effort to get in anwhere else.

There were even complaints about Ginnie when they started requiring DPV trainning. And again when Intro cave divers weren't being allowed in on doubles. Everyone was all set to quit the agency they were with and move to the one that didn't have the same restriction (never mind the same rule had been around for over 20 years) or anything rather then actually get qualified to dive on doubles.

One agency did mention they had a "Discressionary Apprentice" work around and another agency invented one to keep their divers happy.

See whinning works.

They certainly weren't going to find some other place to dive - going somewhere else would have taken too much effort.

[Ken Hill]

Angie,
You make a valid point about the dive sites being different. However that's not all there is to it. In DEP studies the state took four parks and did comparisons of the economic impact they had on the local area. I believe they were Blue Springs Orange City, Ichetucknee Springs State Park , Wakulla and Homosassa. SCUBA was a prominent attraction of BSOC and ISSP. Why not Wakulla? Literally millions of dollars go in to the local economy in the form of lodging, restaurants, services and other business.

It is good for a park to draw visitors and they can do that by offering MORE to the public. The CSO programs are intended to do exactly that. I belong to the Wakulla and Peacock CSO and have my park pass thru Manatee. Again, participation gives you a voice where it counts. /K

[Angie Reim]

See whinning works.



:lol: :lol:

Sometimes I suppose......

Occasionally I'll buy something for the kids if they'll just SHUTUP!!
Of course they never get anything really important that way.

Angie

[OneBrightGator]

Why would you work hard to get access if you can simply whine your way around restrictions. Why work with the park if you think you can change the rules that govern them...

There were even complaints about Ginnie when they started requiring DPV trainning. And again when Intro cave divers weren't being allowed in on doubles.
What is so noble about constantly beating your head against the wall? All the hard work that was put into opening Wakulla didn't get anywhere until one person "took the easy way" and submitted an FOIA request and followed it up.

Why waste time and money on a class that teaches you something you can learn from one dive with a mentor, esp. when your hand is forced to take it? Why do cert. agencies and sites have to babysit cave divers? If intro is not providing the level of training people desire, then expand your training, ala NAUI Cave 1.

The "easy way" is not "inventive" if you're simply satisfied with the status quo and don't want to see any progress.

[Jerry]

Why waste time and money on a class that teaches you something you can learn from one dive with a mentor, esp. when your hand is forced to take it? Why do cert. agencies and sites have to babysit cave divers? If intro is not providing the level of training people desire, then expand your training, ala NAUI Cave 1.


Reading this I would say 1) You have no idea about Trimix if you think you can really learn it in one dive. 2) You need to learn to read; if the park wants it that way that is the way it will be. Emerald is not Peacock, a diver can very quickly get to 180' and there are too many idiots out there that insist on screwing it up for the majority by "Diving beyond their level of Training"

Jerry

[Ken Hill]

What is so noble about constantly beating your head against the wall? All the hard work that was put into opening Wakulla didn't get anywhere until one person "took the easy way" and submitted an FOIA request and followed it up.



Yeah, right send the FOIA request thing to Mythbusters. Enuf said by me. Jerry said it perfectly. /K

[Kelly Jessop]

What is so noble about constantly beating your head against the wall? All the hard work that was put into opening Wakulla didn't get anywhere until one person "took the easy way" and submitted an FOIA request and followed it up.

Ben
No disrespect,but this isn't how it happened. I probably wouldn't reply to this but there was quite a few people who worked very hard in the back ground,that out of respect for their hard work,made this happen. If this strategy worked by itself then I'd say lets use it all the time,but it was one skirmish for the whole war.

[OneBrightGator]

Yo, guys, read the quoted post in mine, the part where it talks about DPV training... not trimix. :roll:

Lots of people did work very hard, but when someone new with a new approach entered the foray, things happened very quickly. New people and new ideas may not be a direct effect, but it at least serves to shift things.

[Kelly Jessop]

but when someone new with a new approach entered the foray, things happened very quickly.

While he pulled there were some other people pushing very hard at the same time. Unfortunately sometimes when you pulling you are turned facing forward and don't realize that people are pushing,and that may be the primary reason why the object moved. So did VP Gore really invent the internet.

[curtschu]

Reading this I would say 1) You have no idea about Trimix if you think you can really learn it in one dive. 2) You need to learn to read; if the park wants it that way that is the way it will be. Emerald is not Peacock, a diver can very quickly get to 180' and there are too many idiots out there that insist on screwing it up for the majority by "Diving beyond their level of Training"

Jerry

Did you not see this?

Cave diving advocates have expressed a desire to expand the number of areas where cave diving is allowed and have suggested that guided tours and restricting use to those who meet certain proficiency standards may be a way to meet this need. Recreation providers should work with cave diving groups to see if there are ways to safely increase opportunities for this activity in ways that do not degrade the resource.

We are the ones that thought up the idea of restricted access. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. This is what I call the "Hat in Hand" method of access. We agree to anything, without giving thought to how it effects the major part of the membership. I have to agree with Gator that it cheapens the Full Cave certification. BTW the only problem I have with E and I is the GUIDE requirement. I do think there should be a "first go with a guide" requirement. Special requirements that pertain directly to the cave environment and Experience level of the Full Cave Diver do make sense because this shows a commitment to the activity and should show an ability to participate safely. After 100 safe cave dives a one week wonder and the guy who took a year for Full Cave should be indistinguishable. But with the guide requirement, lets just take the extreme example. If Woody Jasper decides to start cave diving again and in a couple of months wants to dive Emerald, Do we really think that he would need a guide to hold his hand after a first orientation dive? Since I was not there when negotiations where started I can’t say whether this was a progressive action, but it appears from the state’s own year 2000 document not to be the case.

[OFG-1]

Reading this I would say 1) You have no idea about Trimix if you think you can really learn it in one dive. 2) You need to learn to read; if the park wants it that way that is the way it will be. Emerald is not Peacock, a diver can very quickly get to 180' and there are too many idiots out there that insist on screwing it up for the majority by "Diving beyond their level of Training"

Jerry

Did you not see this?

Cave diving advocates have expressed a desire to expand the number of areas where cave diving is allowed and have suggested that guided tours and restricting use to those who meet certain proficiency standards may be a way to meet this need. Recreation providers should work with cave diving groups to see if there are ways to safely increase opportunities for this activity in ways that do not degrade the resource.

We are the ones that thought up the idea of restricted access. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. This is what I call the "Hat in Hand" method of access. We agree to anything, without giving thought to how it effects the major part of the membership. I have to agree with Gator that it cheapens the Full Cave certification. BTW the only problem I have with E and I is the GUIDE requirement. I do think there should be a "first go with a guide" requirement. Special requirements that pertain directly to the cave environment and Experience level of the Full Cave Diver do make sense because this shows a commitment to the activity and should show an ability to participate safely. After 100 safe cave dives a one week wonder and the guy who took a year for Full Cave should be indistinguishable. But with the guide requirement, lets just take the extreme example. If Woody Jasper decides to start cave diving again and in a couple of months wants to dive Emerald, Do we really think that he would need a guide to hold his hand after a first orientation dive? Since I was not there when negotiations where started I can’t say whether this was a progressive action, but it appears from the state’s own year 2000 document not to be the case.

Well, I see you do not read the requirements very well. Emerald does not have any guide system. Woody can dive there when he wants to.

Indian is privatly held, not state land. The owner was approached "hat in hand" because he has a resource that is not publicly held and there is no obligation to open it under any conditions. Just like Dipolder, Alachua, and Hart.

Can't you guys get it? This horse is dead. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. In fact, PLEASE go somewhere else.

ps - Lamar English and Mark Meadows were "guided" in Indian a few months back. Wayne Kinard was "guided" last week. Vince Ferris has been "guided" 4 or 5 times. If you guys are ever at the level of these people, who do not complain about the guide system, then maybe I will listen. Until then, this is really sad.

[curtschu]

I stand corrected on Emerald. I guess what I am saying is I don't want us to go to the guide system by default as it appears from the DEP doc.

You are right the sites that are open by this method are not going to change. those are dead horses.

Lets all work together to keep access efforts moving forward with the membership desires being kept in the forefront of the effort.
If all the members of the NSS-CDS and NACD were OK with things there would not be so much WHINNING on the internet as you like to point out.

How dare you tell me to go away. I paid my membership to both agencies and I want the volunteers to work in my interest to keep sites open. I also think they should know what the membership thinks and this forum is for us to do just that. When circumstances allow I will be one of the volunteers too and will expect the members to let me know their feelings.

[Ken Hill]

Did you not see this?

Cave diving advocates have expressed a desire to expand the number of areas where cave diving is allowed and have suggested that guided tours and restricting use to those who meet certain proficiency standards may be a way to meet this need. Recreation providers should work with cave diving groups to see if there are ways to safely increase opportunities for this activity in ways that do not degrade the resource.

We are the ones that thought up the idea of restricted access. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. .


Curtschu,
You elected to quote my reference to the seven year old DEP "Florida's Statewide Comprehensive Outdoor Plan 2000." a 229 page report in which cave diving got the ONE paragraph referenced. So after the floods of 1998 when this report was started and 1999 where the ONLY places to dive were Ginnie (Private $18/day), Peacock ($5/day) , LR (free), Telford (free) Madison (private $20/day) Manatee ($5/day) Telford (free wheels and tires for the locals.)

Your "hat in hand" comment that tells me that you don't have a clue as to how hard people worked to get cave diving recognized. Another point , there is no "restricted access" to any of the dive sites we enjoy. There is a requirement to meet the published and accepted diver training standards to the sites in question. Don't you think the states lawyers doing the "due diligence" work would look up and TAKE NOTE OF THOSE STANDARDS.

Do you think their lawyers referenced past legislation introduced after the 24 fatalities in 1974 when there was serious talk about outlawing cave diving in Florida. Perhaps your "hat in hand" comment refers to the response from the NACD and the NSS-CDS which created the cave and cavern training programs which started in 1976. Would you agree "restricted access" of those days led to what we enjoy now!

I can honestly say every state rep and park employee I talked went out of their way listen. Some helped more than others but they all tried to offer their services as best as they could. Learn the history of what happened then comment. /Ken


PS I often wonder about the poor timing of the FOIA request. Before it, both the opening of Cheryl and Emerald were in play. Now we only have Emerald.

[OFG-1]

I stand corrected on Emerald. I guess what I am saying is I don't want us to go to the guide system by default as it appears from the DEP doc.

You are right the sites that are open by this method are not going to change. those are dead horses.

Lets all work together to keep access efforts moving forward with the membership desires being kept in the forefront of the effort.
If all the members of the NSS-CDS and NACD were OK with things there would not be so much WHINNING on the internet as you like to point out.

How dare you tell me to go away. I paid my membership to both agencies and I want the volunteers to work in my interest to keep sites open. I also think they should know what the membership thinks and this forum is for us to do just that. When circumstances allow I will be one of the volunteers too and will expect the members to let me know their feelings.

Well, I didn't tell you to go away. I said go somewhere else, as in find somewhere else to dive. (This damn english language is tough) There are dozens of non restricted access caves to dive, why complain about the 10 or less that have entry requirements, until you run out of things to see?

And, you pay your dues. So what? Does that mean that you are expecting a cookie? You also vote for leadership, and the leadership that is elected responds for the organization. They speak for the desires of the membership. That is (sadly) how a representative democracy works. Both the NACD and NSS-CDS have email adresses posted, you could email the directors directly with your concerns, but you prefer to hash it out in a public forum, perhaps with the hopes of swaying opinion. Well here is a hint for you, it doesn't.

My point is that lip service is just that. If you don't like the situation, go out and actually spend your free time and money doing something.

As I stated in posts before, get a group together, set up a project (Cindy can help you with this), there are systems that need to be relined, run for a director's chair (then you can spend your time and energy listening to everyone second guess how you act). Get in touch with Kelly and try to get a site open.

Or, to qoute the eloquent Mr. Bill Gavin, "shut up and go diving". That is now what I will do.

[Gary]

Hey guys - I'd hate to remind you: this is the thread where we were warned to stop discussing this subject. "Inflamatory Posts" was a warning subject not a new thread to continue fighting in.

:)

[curtschu]

We coud not have it better in anyway we are in a upopia for cave diving paradise there is no room for improvement and every system that can be dove by QUALIFIED RECREATIONAL cave divers is open to them. There is no reason to try and educate the Public and Private Owners of the resourse of the vast improvements in training and equipment since the 70's. There is no reason to show how through our training and education efforts we are showing the new generation of divers how to protect the resourse and still enjoy it. I'm out of this one.

Curt

Kaizen Japanese term that means continuous improvement, taken from words 'Kai' means continuous and 'zen' means improvement

[Angie Reim]

Sorry guys. I kept hoping this thread would fix itself. It almost did. Some good discussion and points were mixed in with the foolishness so it remained for the lurking readers. Sigh.....must lock it now. No one person's fault -- I just can't foresee it going any where productive at this point. I'll leave it and not delete it because there is some good information mixed in it at places. :roll: