February: a belgian diver in florida cave country - help

[reine]

Hi ,
I wil be visiting family in Sarasota Florida - second half of February. Being there, I absolutely want to do some diving. I would take a week off for diving. Looking around, the best option and most interesting diving opportunities for me are the caves ands springs in Florida.
However, I don't have any cave experience. Here in Belgium we do a lot of quarry-diving and wreck diving which is obviously something else.
So here are some practical questions
- Could I, as a CMAS-instructor (over 900 dives) , do a cave-course?
- Where and who would be the best option to do the course with? I have my own means of transportation in Florida. Lodging however cannot be too expensive Also I am a female travelling alone.
- What about photography possibilities? I am taking my equipment with me. Hip Huray for the american airlines that allow me to take a huge amount of luggage!
- Is it possible to rent somewehere or from someone a twin 7 liter steel tank ( in the states it is a dual 45 cu.ft tank - so 90 cu ft in total) with two separate valves - this for a period of 2 weeks. I contacted some local dive shops in Sarasota , but they reacted as I was coming from Mars, not Belgium. Besides the cave course, I'd also do some shorediving and some wrecks in the Gulf, so that's why renting the tanks for a 2-week period time. All my other gear I will take with me.
So any help or information would be welcome.
Thanks,
Reine
www.vissels.com

[lonestarfl]

There is instruction and lodging availible through Cave Excursions www.caveexcursions.com
The smallest doubles that they have for rental is twin 85cf steels. Have you considered a single 95cf steel with an H valve for two independent regulators?
Lee

[Bobby]

Also there is the dive outpost just around the corner from cave excursions. Kathy the owner has bunk house accomidations that are the cheapest around for the single traveler. There are always people there and you will find it a safe and fun enviornment. You could possibly get one of the two shops to set up smaller tanks for you with advance notice. PM my if you would like some recomendations on instructors. diver6767 AT hotmail dot com The rules for this board will not allow public endorsments.

[reine]

I don't consider a large single tank, as I am too tall. Twin tanks just fit a lot better on my back, they are much more stable, especially in combination with the rather large bladder I use.

I'll surely have a look at at the addresses you gave.

[Moonfuzzy]

Training:
Not sure how familiar you are with the levels of training in cave diving (Cavern, Intro, Apprentice, Full Cave). Each of the four classes requires two days of training with the instructor, at which time you may or may not pass depending on your skills. You may want to just take the cavern course - there are many sites open to cavern divers and you could poke around in them a lot (see http://www.cavediver.net/archives/bestcaverns.htm )

Depending on your current skill level (horizontal trim, ability to avoid silting, ability to hover, etc.) you may want to take cavern & Intro together while you are here. That would open up a LOT of cave for you, giving you PLENTY to do while you are here.

I wouldn't suggest taking more classes than that in one chunk. There is no real need.. just dive what you have been trained for until you have exhausted the cave available to you. That will take a while, and you will have a blast doing it.

Equipment:
Most people don't dive with the tanks you are asking for. We may use them for deco gas, but not a cave dive. I dive double high pressure 100 CuFt steel tanks, and they are small compared to what most people use in the caves here (27" tall, 7.25" diameter). The smaller tanks just wouldn't give you much bottom time, with the depth and flow that you find in the caves. Take a look at the resources page ( http://www.cavediver.net/archives/index.html ), look at some of the info listed under "gear". There is a lot of info on what in included in a normal 'cave' rig.


Sources:
There are several agencies that you can get trained through, and they should be able to give you lists of instructors. If you are staying with a dive shop, or renting through one, you may be able to set up training through them also.

On the resources page ( http://www.cavediver.net/archives/index.html ) there is a section under "links" that will have the web addresses to several agencies. In many ways the instructor is often more important than the agency.. you may ask for messages from people recommending an instructor. (replies like that not allowed on the open forum through)

There is a link to accomodations in there.. there are probably links in there to the local dive shops too. They are all pretty high quality, with tech gear etc.

[DeWayne]

I believe 72cuft is the minimum size for doubles allowed/recomended by most agencies. One of you BOD types know for sure?

[Gary]

Note that the HP 100 cuft tanks moonfuzzy mentioned and the LP 85 cuft tanks lonestarfl mentioned were for rent are nearly identical in terms of size, weight and how much air they hold at a given weight.

Since the 85's are actually available for rent and are about as small as set of twin tanks as you would probably ever want to dive in the caves you might want to look at those for use in a cave course.

Double 72's work and might be available somewhere - though I'd still recommend the 85's. 85's are likely to be in far better condition.

Hard to say what the best course(s) for you would be. I'd be just guessing if I said "a cavern+intro cave combination course is probably your best bet" but that would still be my guess.

Cavern is kind of like letting someone peek in the entrance while still using mostly open water gear. This would get you to look in the first hundred feet of some of the easiest caves with minimal cost and training.

Intro Cave starts to get a little more expensive quick though (bigger lights, etc) but allows a lot more leeway in what the instructor can teach and how much you can do with it. Generally considered as a "single tank" cave course if you rent doubles you may need a note from your instructor to get in some parks (Ginnie Springs) with a set of doubles and agree to limit yourself as if your were wearing only a single tank. This still generally would let almost any beginning cave divers dive to the limit of their ability and comfort.

Apprentice Cave is the first half of "double tank cave diving" this would be recommended only for divers intending to dedicate a significant amount of time, energy and money to cave diving.

Full Cave is often only slightly proceeded by selling everything you own and moving to FL to be near the caves. Though a significant number of people do visit FL just to get the training and some do it in as little as a week (cavern+intro+apprentice+full) this is not a wise thing. Most who do this are just acquiring a bunch of new certification cards and are missing out on a lot of the training. Possible reasons for taking all the courses in one go might include making a motion picture about cave diving and about to spend a month in Mexico in underwater caves.

More commonly each course of the set can be included in a 1-2 week vacation allowing some time to get up to speed and back in practice before taking the next one and still do some diving on your own at each level.

Nitrox is cheap easy and availiable here so plan on using it on all your dives. A Nitrox course can usually be combined with cave courses at any level - if for some reason you don't have it already.

[Al]

Hi ,

- Is it possible to rent somewehere or from someone a twin 7 liter steel tank ( in the states it is a dual 45 cu.ft tank - so 90 cu ft in total) with two separate valves - this for a period of 2 weeks. I contacted some local dive shops in Sarasota , but they reacted as I was coming from Mars, not Belgium.

Once you get there and understand gas management rules in a buddy team, you will see why FL cave divers use bigger tanks. You can do it. If you want an instructor recommendation, PM me or email at fossildiver at seagypsy.us Others have given you good advice here too.

al

[Gary]

Hi Reine,

Liked the photography on your site. Is there a way to get a larger view?

Sorry everyone obsessed on the one question you asked. Obviously we mostly use big doubles tanks (or doubles plus stages) to meet air safety requirements in the overhead. I did take my cavern course with triple tank system of 3x30=90 cuft which was more then adequate for open water but very limiting in the caves.

Could I, as a CMAS-instructor (over 900 dives) , do a cave-course?
Often people with fewer than 100 dives are cautioned to get more experience before starting cave training. With 900+ dives you have more then enough experience to begin cave diving.

- Where and who would be the best option to do the course with? I have my own means of transportation in Florida. Lodging however cannot be too expensive Also I am a female traveling alone.
While it is against board rules to recommend instructors or agencies www.caveexcursions.com would be great for you to contact even if only for lodging considerations and their two shops in the central FL area are located close to a concentration of cave sites most often used for training.

- What about photography possibilities? I am taking my equipment with me. Hip Huray for the american airlines that allow me to take a huge amount of luggage!
Combining photography and cave diving I don't know much about it but I've seen some very expensive lights being employed. Wes Skiles is probably our most famous photographer. Karst Productions is located right across the street from Ginnie Springs and down the street from Cave Excusions East. www.karstproductions.com
Once you are done with your training I'm sure a few pictures will be in order. ;)

I hope if you get some good ones you'll share them through the PICTURES link above. There are a number of pictures there already but only a few good underwater ones. :)

- Is it possible to rent somewhere or from someone a twin 7 liter steel tank ( in the states it is a dual 45 cu.ft tank - so 90 cu ft in total) with two separate valves?
Large (LP) 95 cuft-121 cuft tanks are more common either as singles or doubles in the area many shops can rent those to you for an extended period - LP 95's and 104's being the most common tanks in use.

Cave Excursions in particular has manifold double 85's that will probably be among the smallest cave tanks availibalble for rent as doubles. They have should have no problem renting you tanks for your stay.

Saying "two separate valves" make it sound like you are looking to rent independent doubles. Many cave divers and shops look oddly at any mention of independent doubles (although that is how I generally dive).

Sidemount (considered in the US as an advanced style of cave diving where you wear your tanks under your armpits) is the more common method of employing tanks not manifold together and is sometime even done with tanks as small as the ones you are mentioning. It is extremely uncommon in the US to the point of being unrentable. There are few enough shops around able to get you what you need for cave diving - much less what it sounded like you were asking for. ;)


Another good idea would be to find someone who was teaching a class with students in it aready. "Solo diving" in the caves is considered an evil practice that would be very dangerous to attempt early in your cave experience and without even more extreme gear requirements.

Most of the parks you would want to dive require a dive buddy to dive there. Hooking up with a class in progress (and thus meeting buddies you can probably dive with) or arranging a buddy to dive with during your stay will be a tremendous help.

[Jay]

Reine,

Just something to consider. Sarasota is about 200 miles (320 km) from the general cave diving area. Some may be a little closer and some a little further.

I hope you like to drive :)

There is a shop in Crystal River ( birdsunderwater.com) that does some of the initial cavern training in King's spring in Crystal River. They do the rest of the training in Cave Country.

Since you have until february is it possible for you to complete a cavern course in Belgium or that area before you come over?

Jay

[reine]

Thanks for the replies.

I think I wasn't clear enough about the tanks. The purpose of renting these small tanks were not for cave diving (see further on).
I wanted to rent small twin -tanks just to do some shore diving - no cave diving. Being with my family I have the choice - going to the shopping malls or going to look for shark teeth in Venice and have a look at some local wrecks during day time. The last seemed a better idea.

Now for the cave diving: a lot of you gave some very good ideas.
I have no cave experience. Overhere we mostly dive in quarries and on wrecks in the North Sea. Conditions over here are not very good - sometimes very bad even. (cold - bad visibility-rough seas). So I decided to start with the cavern - and intro together, as there are some very basic cave principles I don't know yet. As for the rest of the week, I'd rather do some normal , though restricted, diving in the caves and do some photography.
I don't have the opportunity to follow overhere a cavern intro - we don't have caverns, only old granite quarries and caves, which you literally have to climb through a small hole to get in.

I probably go for the cheapest lodging - I only need a bed, shower and electricity supply.

The tanks for the course I'll rent at the local shop. Are the tanks 300 bar din or 200 bar international. (do I have to take an adapter for my din-regulatores)? For the size it's very simple: my instructor overthere will probably the best to advice which tanks to take.

For the lights: there is no problems: Belgians are addicted to lamps, we have them in all sizes. I'll probably take a 50 watt halogen. I prefer this one to an HID. (more yellow light and less reflection). I have a battery pack that attaches to my tank - is that a problem? The lamps I use you can see at www.green-force.com Arrow D12 double batterypack - pro head) - back-up lamps small LED-lamps.

So, if any of you'd like to go with me (and willing to be photograped) let me know.

Double tanks - 2 separate valves I didn't mean independent doubles. Just a valve on each tank connected by a manifold. When I rent the tanks - are they provided with cylinder bands and band bolds, as I don't know yet what tanks I isdifficult for me to take cylinder bands form home.

Gary: for the photos on my website. You need a bit of patience , if you click the thumbmails they become big (you need a qick internet-provider) - I am still working to make things work faster but a bit lack of time right now. Aklso push F11 - so you get a full screen.

So finally:
I am coming to or form friday 18 through Friday 25 or Monday feb28 through Monday march 6 - depending on the possibility to hook up with someone else for the course.
If anyone else though would like to go for some photoshoot dives (you need an extreme amount of patience however), just let me know.

[Bobby]

Reine,
Glad to here you are going to get the course in. Intro cave will be plenty for you and give you lots of access for your stay. The light that you have will be fine. You may want to consider bringing two batteries as you may need them for the end of your class or some of the dives you may want to do in one day after you get your certification. The larger tanks will have bands and cross over manifold. The smaller set, like I mentioned in the pm I sent, you will just have to make some phone calls or send some emails to find out about. Best of luck and great dives.

Bobby

[Gary]

I wanted to rent small twin -tanks just to do some shore diving - no cave diving.
I think you'll have trouble finding anyone who can rent you tiny twin tanks. You might be lucky just to rent tanks that are DIN and find a shop over there that can fill them. There are some 200 BAR DIN valves that can be converted back and forth from YOKE-DIN that might help. Make it easy to find shops that can fill your tanks.

I hear its not the best of diving over that side of FL either.

I have no cave experience. Overhere we mostly dive in quarries and on wrecks in the North Sea. Conditions over here are not very good - sometimes very bad even. (cold - bad visibility-rough seas).
Visibility in the popular North FL caves is usually pretty good. 80-100' is not uncommon, less than 50' is relitively poor in many. Zero vis is always a possible result of poor technique though.
There are lots caves in FL (even down near Tampa/Sarasota area) that have bad vis. but you are not likely to be training in them.
Temperature is a constant 72F year round in most NFL springs - probably warm compared to the quarries.
And you can't beat the clean fresh water and the drive up and jump in atmosphere. :)

The tanks for the course I'll rent at the local shop. Are the tanks 300 bar din or 200 bar international.
We mostly use DIN in the caves - but if you rent from and open water shop DIN maybe hard to find. When I'm diving outside of cave country I bring adapters to be sure I can get my DIN tanks filled.

For the lights: there is no problems: Belgians are addicted to lamps, we have them in all sizes. I'll probably take a 50 watt halogen. I prefer this one to an HID. (more yellow light and less reflection). I have a battery pack that attaches to my tank - is that a problem?
Battery pack attachment points have changed much over the years. Attaching the battery pack to the side of the tank is still done (rarely) but is probably the least preferred method.
Part of the problem is that if it sticks out it could become entangled in line or beat against the rock walls - and if here is an entaglement behind you it would be hard to untangle yourself. Also many tank mounting units are not easily removed in the water.

For those reasons most lights are worn belt mounted these days and with the smaller NiMH canisters and HID lamps the battery packs are quite unobtrusive. Expect your instructor to offer to loan or rent you a light that would be mounted in the usual fashion. Even if he doesn't you might find it would work better that way.

If you were taking a cavern course in your own gear a lot of your course will be just going over your gear and finding ways to get rid of entanglement hazards. Since you will be renting gear already set up "cave ready" it will mostly be about adding things like you light to it in a way that won't hamper you in the cave.

[DeWayne]

I'm just guessing here, but I would think that either Bird's in Crystal River or Depth Perception in Tampa should rent tanks equipped with Din valves. They cater to tech divers at both shops so it would be woth checking with them. It is doubtful though that she will find anything doubled up smaller than 85's or perhaps 72's. I would tend to think that along the Gulf coast if she finds any doubles for rent they're likely to be AL 80's. Again, this is all just a WAG on my part.

[MichaelAngelo]

May I suggest Larry Green of Eagles Nest Technical Divers as instructor
also I have a place I rent thru Eagles nest thats very reasonable and secure. feel free to e-mail me or go to my website for both links WWW.Michael-Angelo-art.com
MA9001@aol.com

[crawford]

I think you're making the right decision to take cavern and Intro. Like others have said, that will open up tons of diving for you in North Florida. Also, you don't want to spend the whole week in class, by taking only Intro (possibly three days of class), you'll have several days to just relax and enjoy diving.

Also, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the how accomodating the NFL dive scene will be. You'll have a great time and not spend all your savings.

Have fun!

[reine]

So I booked a cavern and intro with an instructor that was recommended several times as well as my lodging in Live Oak. I' ll be there from feb 19 until feb 25.

Thanks everyone for the good and clear advice.

Reine

[Jay]

Reine,

That's great!

You are in for a unique experience. I think you will enjoy North FLorida and the cast of characters you will run into. :)

Jay

[tanto]

So I booked a cavern and intro with an instructor that was recommended several times as well as my lodging in Live Oak. I' ll be there from feb 19 until feb 25.
Thanks everyone for the good and clear advice.
Reine

You'll love it. I went through a similar experience ten years ago (only difference I already had many cave dives on my log-book) and I only found very friendly and helpful people. I brought all my gear from Europe except tanks and weights (you do need them if you don't find steel doubles and have to dive with indipendent 80cf doubles).
Not only the people was amazing, caves were amazing too, with warm, crystal clear water, every dive was as nice and relaxing as a dream. And some places were actually free (Little river) or the ticket was minimal (7$ at peacock).
And everything was very reasonably priced.
The biggest difference with our caves was temperature: warm water invites you to much longer exposures, you can stay HOURS in that water and still feel good. That's why they all dive big tanks, no one stays in the water less than an hour or two!
You'll get addicted.

Ah, there was another difference: they pump your tanks, even 3000 psi alu tanks, to 4000 psi! (I still remember my shock at Ginnie!)

[FW]

Ah, there was another difference: they pump your tanks, even 3000 psi alu tanks, to 4000 psi! (I still remember my shock at Ginnie!)

Sorry, nobody overfills AL tanks anymore. There have been to many accidents :(

[tanto]

Ah, there was another difference: they pump your tanks, even 3000 psi alu tanks, to 4000 psi! (I still remember my shock at Ginnie!)

Sorry, nobody overfills AL tanks anymore. There have been to many accidents :(

Good to know and glad I wasn't one of them!
That was in 1995 anyway.