Fossils in North Florida underwater caves

[saturation]

Folks,

Anyone know what types of fossils are typically seen in underwater caves in North Florida, e.g. Devils Cave, Peacock, Little River etc.,?

I find many sand dollar types around the floor of many passageways in Devil's cave system and Little River, fossilized shells are abundant in the cavern zone of Little River ...etc., but are there any Megalodon teeth in these caves? Are there bones in the Devil's system bone room? I was examining some of the many tiny rocks just on the surface of the mud in the bone room and could have sworn they were tiny bones of some creatures. Some were so fragile, just touching them broke them apart ... so I stopped trying to lift them out and just studied them in place.

[Jerry]

The rock formation you will see in Peacock, Devil's, Little River is the Ocala Limestone. It is Eocene in age; meaning it is between 55 and 35 million years old. In the rock you will see echinoid bodies (sea biscuits/urchins), crab remains (claws and shells; although claws seem more predominant), some bivalves, and the index fossil for the Ocala; Lepidocyclina. This last is a single-celled organism that are easily recognized by their circular, flat, wavy test(shells). These are easily found in the sand at the mouth of Little River.

Small fragile bone like things may be the urchin spines if they are around 0.5 to 0.75 inch long with a knob at one end. They could also easily be bones of younger creatures that fell into sinkholes; mammoth, sloth, ancient horses. These could also be remains washed out of overlying sands into the cave.

Hope this helps,

Jerry

[Caver95]

But how can that be if the bible says the world is only a few thousand years old?

[Oister]

:roll: But how can that be if the bible says the world is only a few thousand years old? :roll: You didn't just go there? :twisted:

[amphipod06]

But how can that be if the bible says the world is only a few thousand years old?

Me thinks you are trolling..... :-D

Dive safe,

Celia

[saturation]

Thanks Jerry. This helps a ton. Has anyone found shark teeth in any of those cave systems, bolded below. I've seen the 2 whale vertebrae in the whale bone room, but nothing much bigger.



The rock formation you will see in Peacock, Devil's, Little River is the Ocala Limestone. It is Eocene in age; meaning it is between 55 and 35 million years old. In the rock you will see echinoid bodies (sea biscuits/urchins), crab remains (claws and shells; although claws seem more predominant), some bivalves, and the index fossil for the Ocala; Lepidocyclina. This last is a single-celled organism that are easily recognized by their circular, flat, wavy test(shells). These are easily found in the sand at the mouth of Little River.

Small fragile bone like things may be the urchin spines if they are around 0.5 to 0.75 inch long with a knob at one end. They could also easily be bones of younger creatures that fell into sinkholes; mammoth, sloth, ancient horses. These could also be remains washed out of overlying sands into the cave.

Hope this helps,

Jerry

[saturation]

But how can that be if the bible says the world is only a few thousand years old?

ah! A good question to raise in cave country eh [probably better last week during Easter] ;-) ! But I will not go there :-D

[JDostal]

But how can that be if the bible says the world is only a few thousand years old?

God put them there to test your faith.

**EDIT**

I'm joking.

[Kelly Jessop]

Thanks Jerry. This helps a ton. Has anyone found shark teeth in any of those cave systems, bolded below. I've seen the 2 whale vertebrae in the whale bone room, but nothing much bigger.




I have seen sharks teeth on the floor,imbedded in the walls;also rib bones in the walls,plus other interesting things. The real tragedy is that many people are reluctant to reveal locations of things like this because for some reason they disappear.

[Cindy]

Me, I likes the skulls! Argh, argh! I am making a collection....
Cindy the Cave Pirate...

[Jerry]

Thanks Jerry. This helps a ton. Has anyone found shark teeth in any of those cave systems, bolded below. I've seen the 2 whale vertebrae in the whale bone room, but nothing much bigger.


Shark teeth and ray grinder plates can be seen if you know where and what to look for. Unfortuately, like Kelly said, there are those that can't leave them for everyone to see.

Jerry

[OFG-1]

I found one cow's horn once. Never did find the rest of the cow. A fossil from the obscene period.

[Ed Jackson]

Me, I likes the skulls! Argh, argh! I am making a collection....
Cindy the Cave Pirate...

Skulls with snorkels?

[Kenny P.]

Anyone know what types of fossils are typically seen in underwater caves in North Florida, e.g. Devils Cave, Peacock, Little River etc.,?

Just north and west, in Marianna, Jackson Blue has some sharks teeth and my favorite is a Saber Toothed Tiger's tooth. It's been broken over the years by careless divers in a delicate area but I have a few photos of it before. It is still something to see.
Kenny P.

I know of two people that have picked up shark teeth in JB (I won't say who; although I realize it is wrong, I don't know if I could resist taking one if I saw it).

One was at p800' in the flat section, and one was at p2050' in the Zig-Zag.

[Kenny P.]

I know of two people that have picked up shark teeth in JB (I won't say who; although I realize it is wrong, I don't know if I could resist taking one if I saw it).

One was at p800' in the flat section, and one was at p2050' in the Zig-Zag.

Yea me too! Potholes and gravel beds, just like the rivers. I usually take only pictures and leave only bubbles. My youngest son did cull a few sharks teeth from the gravel when he was young. I like to see these ancient fossils but normally in their natural place.
Thanks,
Kenny P.

[saturation]

Is it 'illegal' to take fossils from the cave that are just sitting there? For example, there is a difference between fossils still embedded in the cave or floor sediments, requiring one to dig or damage the cave, than those just lying open on the surface ... like rocks. If one found a fossil lying open, what should the 'proper' thing be to do? Methinks in caves with some flow, it would just be a matter of time before the fossil were blown out or reburied by sediment mud in the next flow.

[Kelly Jessop]

Is it 'illegal' to take fossils from the cave that are just sitting there? For example, there is a difference between fossils still embedded in the cave or floor sediments, requiring one to dig or damage the cave, than those just lying open on the surface ... like rocks. If one found a fossil lying open, what should the 'proper' thing be to do? Methinks in caves with some flow, it would just be a matter of time before the fossil were blown out or reburied by sediment mud in the next flow.

Here is the Florida Statute

810.13 Cave vandalism and related offenses.--

(1) DEFINITIONS.--As used in this act:

(a) "Cave" means any void, cavity, recess, or system of interconnecting passages which naturally occurs beneath the surface of the earth or within a cliff or ledge, including natural subsurface water and drainage systems but not including any mine, tunnel, aqueduct, or other manmade excavation, and which is large enough to permit a person to enter. The word "cave" includes any cavern, natural pit, or sinkhole which is an extension of an entrance to a cave.

(b) "Cave life" means any life form which is indigenous to a cave or to a cave ecosystem.

(c) "Gate" means any structure or device located to limit or prohibit access or entry to a cave.

(d) "Owner" means a person who owns title to land where a cave is located, including a person who holds a leasehold estate in such land; the state or any of its agencies, departments, boards, bureaus, commissions, or authorities; or any county, municipality, or other political subdivision of the state.

(e) "Person" means any individual, partnership, firm, association, trust, corporation, or other legal entity.

(f) "Sinkhole" means a closed topographic depression or basin, generally draining underground, including, but not restricted to, a doline, limesink, or sink.

(g) "Speleogen" means an erosional feature of a cave boundary, including, but not restricted to, anastomoses, scallops, rills, flutes, spongework, or pendants.

(h) "Speleothem" means a natural mineral formation or deposit occurring in a cave, including, but not restricted to, a stalagmite, stalactite, helictite, anthodite, gypsum flower, gypsum needle, angel hair, soda straw, drapery, bacon, cave pearl, popcorn (coral), rimstone dam, column, or flowstone. Speleothems are commonly composed of calcite, epsomite, gypsum, aragonite, celestite, or other similar minerals.

(2) VANDALISM.--It is unlawful for any person, without the prior written permission of the owner, to:
(a) Break, break off, crack, carve upon, write upon, burn, mark upon, remove, or in any manner destroy, disturb, deface, mar, or harm the surfaces of any cave or any natural material which may be found therein, whether attached or broken, including speleothems, speleogens, or sedimentary deposits. This paragraph does not prohibit minimal disturbance or removal for scientific inquiry.

(b) Break, force, tamper with, or otherwise disturb a lock, gate, door, or other obstruction designed to control or prevent access to a cave, even though entrance thereto may not be gained.

(c) Remove, deface, or tamper with a sign stating that a cave is posted or citing provisions of this act.

(3) CAVE LIFE.--It is unlawful to remove, kill, harm, or otherwise disturb any naturally occurring organism within a cave, except for safety or health reasons. The provisions of this subsection do not prohibit minimal disturbance or removal of organisms for scientific inquiry.

(4) POLLUTION AND LITTERING.--It is unlawful to store in a cave any chemical or other material which may be detrimental or hazardous to the cave, to the mineral deposits therein, to the cave life therein, to the waters of the state, or to persons using such cave for any purposes. It is also unlawful to dump, litter, dispose of, or otherwise place any refuse, garbage, dead animal, sewage, trash, or other similar waste materials in a cave. This subsection shall not apply to activity which is regulated pursuant to s. 373.106, regarding the intentional introduction of water into an underground formation, or chapter 377, regarding the injection of fluids into subsurface formations in connection with oil or gas operations.

(5) SALE OF SPELEOTHEMS.--It is unlawful for any person to sell or offer for sale any speleothems in this state or to transport them for sale outside this state.

(6) PENALTIES.--Any person who violates subsection (2), subsection (3), subsection (4), or subsection (5) is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

History.--ss. 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, ch. 80-356; s. 486, ch. 81-259.



As cavers and cave divers we have access granted frequently because of our respect of the environment,and this becomes a trust relationship with the land owners. If we are known to be removing any artifacts from a cave environment then this trust relationship will be violated,and considering the state owns or controlls many of the caves we use,we can't afford to anything less than a high level of integrity. The cave diving mantra has been "take nothing but pictures,leave nothing but bubbles",so personally I'd say looking at the Florida Statute,and being conservation minded that nothing should be removed from a cave.

[Kelly Jessop]

Is it 'illegal' to take fossils from the cave that are just sitting there? For example, there is a difference between fossils still embedded in the cave or floor sediments, requiring one to dig or damage the cave, than those just lying open on the surface ... like rocks. If one found a fossil lying open, what should the 'proper' thing be to do? Methinks in caves with some flow, it would just be a matter of time before the fossil were blown out or reburied by sediment mud in the next flow.

Here is the Florida Statute

810.13 Cave vandalism and related offenses.--

(1) DEFINITIONS.--As used in this act:

(a) "Cave" means any void, cavity, recess, or system of interconnecting passages which naturally occurs beneath the surface of the earth or within a cliff or ledge, including natural subsurface water and drainage systems but not including any mine, tunnel, aqueduct, or other manmade excavation, and which is large enough to permit a person to enter. The word "cave" includes any cavern, natural pit, or sinkhole which is an extension of an entrance to a cave.

(b) "Cave life" means any life form which is indigenous to a cave or to a cave ecosystem.

(c) "Gate" means any structure or device located to limit or prohibit access or entry to a cave.

(d) "Owner" means a person who owns title to land where a cave is located, including a person who holds a leasehold estate in such land; the state or any of its agencies, departments, boards, bureaus, commissions, or authorities; or any county, municipality, or other political subdivision of the state.

(e) "Person" means any individual, partnership, firm, association, trust, corporation, or other legal entity.

(f) "Sinkhole" means a closed topographic depression or basin, generally draining underground, including, but not restricted to, a doline, limesink, or sink.

(g) "Speleogen" means an erosional feature of a cave boundary, including, but not restricted to, anastomoses, scallops, rills, flutes, spongework, or pendants.

(h) "Speleothem" means a natural mineral formation or deposit occurring in a cave, including, but not restricted to, a stalagmite, stalactite, helictite, anthodite, gypsum flower, gypsum needle, angel hair, soda straw, drapery, bacon, cave pearl, popcorn (coral), rimstone dam, column, or flowstone. Speleothems are commonly composed of calcite, epsomite, gypsum, aragonite, celestite, or other similar minerals.

(2) VANDALISM.--It is unlawful for any person, without the prior written permission of the owner, to:
(a) Break, break off, crack, carve upon, write upon, burn, mark upon, remove, or in any manner destroy, disturb, deface, mar, or harm the surfaces of any cave or any natural material which may be found therein, whether attached or broken, including speleothems, speleogens, or sedimentary deposits. This paragraph does not prohibit minimal disturbance or removal for scientific inquiry.

(b) Break, force, tamper with, or otherwise disturb a lock, gate, door, or other obstruction designed to control or prevent access to a cave, even though entrance thereto may not be gained.

(c) Remove, deface, or tamper with a sign stating that a cave is posted or citing provisions of this act.

(3) CAVE LIFE.--It is unlawful to remove, kill, harm, or otherwise disturb any naturally occurring organism within a cave, except for safety or health reasons. The provisions of this subsection do not prohibit minimal disturbance or removal of organisms for scientific inquiry.

(4) POLLUTION AND LITTERING.--It is unlawful to store in a cave any chemical or other material which may be detrimental or hazardous to the cave, to the mineral deposits therein, to the cave life therein, to the waters of the state, or to persons using such cave for any purposes. It is also unlawful to dump, litter, dispose of, or otherwise place any refuse, garbage, dead animal, sewage, trash, or other similar waste materials in a cave. This subsection shall not apply to activity which is regulated pursuant to s. 373.106, regarding the intentional introduction of water into an underground formation, or chapter 377, regarding the injection of fluids into subsurface formations in connection with oil or gas operations.

(5) SALE OF SPELEOTHEMS.--It is unlawful for any person to sell or offer for sale any speleothems in this state or to transport them for sale outside this state.

(6) PENALTIES.--Any person who violates subsection (2), subsection (3), subsection (4), or subsection (5) is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

History.--ss. 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, ch. 80-356; s. 486, ch. 81-259.



As cavers and cave divers we have access granted frequently because of our respect of the environment,and this becomes a trust relationship with the land owners. If we are known to be removing any artifacts from a cave environment then this trust relationship will be violated,and considering the state owns or controlls many of the caves we use,we can't afford to anything less than a high level of integrity. The cave diving mantra has been "take nothing but pictures,leave nothing but bubbles",so personally I'd say looking at the Florida Statute,and being conservation minded that nothing should be removed from a cave.

[Kenny P.]

Kelly,
Thanks for posting the statute. Good personal note as well!
Thanks Again,
Kenny P.

[wingman]

While i am not encouraging collecting from caves and fully agree with the take nothing but pictures and leave nothing but bubbles philosophy (although we should recognize that our bubbles are not a natural input especially if breathing enriched mixtures...but let's not all switch to rebreathers because of this nor get into a p-valve discussion) there are rules governing permissable fossil collection. Actually there was a good discussion of this at an nacd meeting a year or two ago. Bill


Florida Fossil Permit
FLORIDA STATUTE § 1004.57 sets forth the State of Florida's declared intent to protect and preserve vertebrate fossils and vertebrate paleontology sites. All vertebrate fossils found on lands owned or leased by the state belong to the state with title to the fossils vested in the Florida Museum of Natural History for the purposes of administration. Field collection of vertebrate fossils may be conducted under the authority of a permit issued by the Program of Vertebrate Paleontology in accordance with FS § 1004.575 and the University of Florida RULE 6C1-7.541 F.A.C. The purpose of the fossil collecting permit is not only to manage this non-renewable part of Florida's heritage, but to help paleontologists learn more about the range and distribution of the state's fossil animals.

WHAT AREAS ARE COVERED?

The state intends to encourage preservation of its heritage wherever vertebrate fossils are discovered; the state encourages all persons having knowledge of such fossils to notify the Program of Vertebrate Paleontology at the Florida Museum of Natural History. A permit is required for most collecting activities on all lands owned or leased by the state. This includes sites located either on submerged lands or uplands. Please note that existing regulations prohibit collecting in state parks and certain other managed areas. Check the regulations to see if your activities are covered. Fossil collecting on private land does not require a permit (but you will need the permission of the land owner or manager to enter, collect on, and retain fossils from private property). Having a permit does not give you the right to collect fossils on private property without the permission of the land owner.

WHAT OBJECTS ARE COVERED?

It is Florida's public policy to protect and preserve vertebrate fossils, including bones, teeth, natural casts, molds, impressions, and other remains of prehistoric vertebrate animals. Fossil sharks teeth are specifically excluded from these regulations, as are the fossils of plants, invertebrate animals (e.g., mollusks, sea urchins, crabs, etc.), and other organisms, so no permit is required to collect such specimens. A permit is required to collect fossils of all other kinds of vertebrates, namely fish (except sharks teeth), amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals.

WHO MAY OBTAIN A PERMIT?

Any person with an interest in Florida vertebrate fossils may apply for a permit. These regulations apply to both residents and non-residents of Florida. Minors can apply for permits, but may also collect with a permit-carrying adult parent or guardian who assumes all responsibilities and obligations for the collected specimens.

WHO MUST OBTAIN A PERMIT?

* Any person or entity buying, selling or trading vertebrate fossils found on or under state-owned or leased land; and/or
* Any person or entity engaged in the systematic collection, acquisition, or restoration of vertebrate fossils found on state-owned or leased land.

"Systematic collection" is hereby characterized by one or more of the following three features:

1. volume of collections of vertebrate fossils in excess of one gallon at one site;
2. use of any power-driven machinery or mechanical excavating tools of any size or hand tools greater than two (2) feet in length;
3. the collection, acquisition, excavation, salvage, exhumation or restoration of vertebrate fossils at a site on more than three days or a maximum of twenty-four hours during a period of one year.

HOW IS A PERMIT OBTAINED?

Any person wishing to engage in field collection of vertebrate fossils on land owned or leased by the state of Florida should apply for a permit by printing out and completing an application form and mailing it to the FLORIDA PROGRAM OF VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY, Florida Museum of Natural History, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida 32611-7800, USA.

The application must be accompanied by a self-identification document such as a photocopy of the applicant's birth certificate, driver's license, or passport, and a check or money order for $5.00 US made payable to the PROGRAM OF VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY. A permit shall be issued for one year. A multiple-user permit will be granted to an individual representing an organization or institution. Multiple-user permits are not intended for collective use by separate adult members of a family or household; they should each apply for their own permits.

WHAT OBLIGATIONS DOES A PERMIT CARRY?

As a permit holder you can help unlock the secrets of Florida's fossil heritage and preserve this knowledge for future generations. Each year permittees add new discoveries to Florida's fossil heritage. The holder of a permit must report any unusual specimen or unusually rich site to the PROGRAM OF VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY as soon as possible. At any convenient time, no later than the end of the permit year, the permit holder shall submit to the PROGRAM OF VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY a list of all vertebrate fossils collected during the permit year along with appropriate locality information; or the actual collections with appropriate locality information. If within sixty (60) days of receipt of the list or the actual collection the PROGRAM OF VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY does not request the permittee to donate one or more of the fossils collected, they may be released as 'non-essential fossils' to be disposed of however the permit holder may choose.

If you already have a fossil permit, you should renew it about three to four weeks before the expiration date to ensure that you receive your new card before the old one expires. Unless you indicate otherwise, the starting date for the renewed permit will be one day after your current permit expires.

Questions about Florida Program of Vertebrate Paleontology may be directed to:

Richard Hulbert
Program of Vertebrate Paleontology
Florida Museum of Natural History
University of Florida
Gainesville, Florida 32611
Tel: (352)392-1721 Ext. 259
E-mail: rhulbert@flmnh.ufl.edu



up-dated January 17, 2007 :wink:

[Kenny P.]

Bill,
Excellent information. Thanks for your input. Hope all is well.
Kenny P.

[saturation]

Wow, most excellent stuff. Need time to digest it. Thanks a ton!