Challenge Question II

[skip]

I'll try one.

Two divers enter a small system with viz about 10 feet. They follow the mainline for a nice easy dive. Backmount doubles. About 400 feet in the line rises up from the floor and goes overhead. This area is rather restricted with little clearance between floor and ceiling, but enough for backmount to get through. Silty too. Shallow at 18 feet deep.

The lead diver feels some resistance as if the current is picking up, kicks a bit harder and soon can't move forward at all. He figures out it's the line wrapped on the right post. He reaches back to unwrap it and the small tight area coupled with the tension and movement causes a sudden painful leg cramp just as he disengages the line.

The line goes twinging off into the void (under more tension than first suspected) and the leg cramp causes a reflexive straightening of the leg that sends the diver off to the opposite side in a huge cloud of silt (current is almost nonexistent, the silt cloud won't move or settle). As bad luck would have it the diver also rises up right into an overhead fracture and soon finds himself vertical and stuck tight with a cramping painful calf muscle. Depth at this point is about 4 feet (floor is down at 18 feet), viz is zero.

The buddy sees the line suddenly jump to the left about 6 feet, his buddy jerking and seemingly "pulled" off to the right disappearing in the resultant silt cloud.

Now what? What should diver do? What should buddy do?

-skip

[Cindy]

First I would pull out my Skiles Scanner and shoot the monster that just grabbed my buddy! :D

Second I would check and make sure I am still on the line. If I am then I would tie off and do a lot buddy search. If I am off the line I would put my silt screw into the silt, tie off, do a lost line drill, find the line and swim up to see if my buddy was on the line. If they are not I would tie off to the line and go looking for him. If I don't find him and exaust my air I would have to leave, go back for more air and help if it's available. Either way I don't think any of my buddies want me to die looking for them. We all take our chances on this stuff. I personally know I don't want anyone to die for me. It would be a terrible decision to have to make. Cindy

[Jay]

Assumptions - gas should not be any immediate problem.

Buddy - Find and tie into line with an arrow pointing out. Swim up to edge of silt cloud before tiing in if possible. Move slowly in last known direction of lost buddy. Do a search, but slowly, no need to rush.

Diver - take a few deep breaths and gently try to extricate self, keeping in mind last known direction the line zinged off to. No need to hurry or desperately try to free one's self as buddy is close and plenty of gas available.

Buddy shows up - let him help you free and decide on exiting or continuing

If buddy does not show up in 10 minutes, do what you gotta do to free yourself.
Once free, do a lost line drill, get out and kick the crap out of your buddy.

[Yellow Odin]

Perhaps some noise would help. Bang on tanks. Strong sound/null sound (which ear is pointed toward your buddy - turn your head) and intensity changes might give a clue.

[aw]

If I don't find him and exaust my air I would have to leave, go back for more air and help if it's available. Either way I don't think any of my buddies want me to die looking for them. We all take our chances on this stuff. I personally know I don't want anyone to die for me. It would be a terrible decision to have to make. Cindy

I totally agree. I would use that emergency reserve too looking for him, but would start exiting when I had maybe 800 PSI left. They're only 400 ft from entrance and depth is only 18 ft. So when the problem started, they had not even used 1/3 of doubles to get there. So it's not going to take 1/3 to get out. But I definitely would not sit there and die with him if I still could not find him. He could have found the line without you and started exiting.

I'm not sure about everyone else's training. But this scenario was specifically addressed in mine. You figure about how much gas it will take you to get out of the cave and you look for the buddy till you get close to that pressure. And hope if you did find him at the last minute, you don't have to share gas. The last thing you want to do is pop up at the surface without a buddy and still have 1500 psi in your tanks.

[FW]

If buddy does not show up in 10 minutes, do what you gotta do to free yourself.
Once free, do a lost line drill, get out and kick the crap out of your buddy.

How do you figure any of this is the buddy's fault? He didn't get tangled, or let go of the line. He also didn't put the leader into the crack in the ceiling. Yes the buddy should look for the leader, but if he doesn't find him in a reasonable time, he should exit. Like Cindy said, no use for both to die.

One big problem in this type scenario is lack of communication.

The buddy on the line has no way of telling if the lost buddy has in fact found the line, and is on the way out.

The entire question of separated buddies needs to be re-addressed at the training level. What were you taught in open water? Look for a period of time, and surface. The same applies here. There should be a time limit, as well as a gas limit, for looking for a lost buddy.

The guys separated at Little river could have both survived if one hadn't stayed too long waiting for his buddy, who was already out. The survivor did leave a marker, but the victim never came out far enough to see it.

[novadiver]

Turn off my primary light and look for the glow of my buddies light. It's got to be close

[Tegg]

The entire question of separated buddies needs to be re-addressed at the training level. What were you taught in open water? Look for a period of time, and surface. The same applies here. There should be a time limit, as well as a gas limit, for looking for a lost buddy.

The guys separated at Little river could have both survived if one hadn't stayed too long waiting for his buddy, who was already out. The survivor did leave a marker, but the victim never came out far enough to see it.

This type of information was addressed in my training. Are there instructors that are not teaching it?

[Jay]

If buddy does not show up in 10 minutes, do what you gotta do to free yourself.
Once free, do a lost line drill, get out and kick the crap out of your buddy.

How do you figure any of this is the buddy's fault? He didn't get tangled, or let go of the line. He also didn't put the leader into the crack in the ceiling. Yes the buddy should look for the leader, but if he doesn't find him in a reasonable time, he should exit. Like Cindy said, no use for both to die.

One big problem in this type scenario is lack of communication.

The buddy on the line has no way of telling if the lost buddy has in fact found the line, and is on the way out.

The entire question of separated buddies needs to be re-addressed at the training level. What were you taught in open water? Look for a period of time, and surface. The same applies here. There should be a time limit, as well as a gas limit, for looking for a lost buddy.

The guys separated at Little river could have both survived if one hadn't stayed too long waiting for his buddy, who was already out. The survivor did leave a marker, but the victim never came out far enough to see it.

Wohhhhh! What is going on here lately, everybody interpreting something that was never said!!!

I never said it was the buddy's fault, but if he cannot find you in 10 minutes in this situation (small cave, last known location very close) and you find no evidence of him tiing off/marking the line/searching, then he has some skill/attitude issues that need to be addressed.

As said by at least one other person, I was also taught to figure a gas limit for a lost buddy search as I hope the others were. I do not think it's a training issue unless they recently stopped addressing it.

[Cindy]

I have actually faced this problem three times myself. Twice with buddies that went past me and actually made it out before I did and once I made it out before my buddy did. It's a tough decision to make. So much can happen in a cave that I doubt any instructor can cover every problem. The thing they need to do is train a diver to be able to do self rescue and be a thinking well trained dive buddy. Cindy :D

[FW]

As far as I know, a *gas* limit is set by all agencies. I think there should *also* be a time limit. In some cases, it may be better to go out, and get more gas, and/or help to search.

Mostly, it gives buddies a chance to find each other without risking one running out of gas, looking for someone that is already out of the cave.

FWIW, they should both leave evidence that they have left (notes, cookies, etc.)

[aainslie]

Well, let's do the math. Let's say the person has a horrible SAC of 1, and swims slowly at 30 ft/min. At that rate, and at 18 ft depth, they need 1.6 * 400/30 or about 20 cu ft of gas. In double HP 100's, that's 350 PSI. Add a bit on, you could safely hang around until your tanks were down to about 800 PSI before exiting.

I know that no one is going to do that math underwater. But it's interesting to compare this to Challenge 3. In this Challenge (shallow, near the entrance), I'd search for a long, long time. In Challenge 3 (deep, WAY too far back) I'd get the hell out if I couldn't see the buddy almost immediately, possibly leaving a line marker every few hundred feet to show the other guy I was on my way out.

[skip]

As far as I know, a *gas* limit is set by all agencies. I think there should *also* be a time limit. In some cases, it may be better to go out, and get more gas, and/or help to search.

Mostly, it gives buddies a chance to find each other without risking one running out of gas, looking for someone that is already out of the cave.

FWIW, they should both leave evidence that they have left (notes, cookies, etc.)

maybe it's time for two new line arrow types? 1. Gone Looking for you in this direction, 2. Gave up looking for you and left going this direction which I think is the way out. Identifiable in zero viz?

-skip

[Cindy]

I don't know about the arrows but I know if I am going into good vis in a cave like that I AM GOING THE WRONG WAY! Clear water is always a bad sign. Going back into the #### once on the line is the way out, in or out of flow. Cindy :D

[Jay]

I agree.
I am surprised the original training director didn't think of that.
:smt064
Now how do we get training standards changed?? :smt064 :smt064


As far as I know, a *gas* limit is set by all agencies. I think there should *also* be a time limit. In some cases, it may be better to go out, and get more gas, and/or help to search.

Mostly, it gives buddies a chance to find each other without risking one running out of gas, looking for someone that is already out of the cave.

FWIW, they should both leave evidence that they have left (notes, cookies, etc.)

[FW]

I agree.
I am surprised the original training director didn't think of that.
:smt064
Now how do we get training standards changed?? :smt064 :smt064


As far as I know, a *gas* limit is set by all agencies. I think there should *also* be a time limit. In some cases, it may be better to go out, and get more gas, and/or help to search.

Mostly, it gives buddies a chance to find each other without risking one running out of gas, looking for someone that is already out of the cave.

FWIW, they should both leave evidence that they have left (notes, cookies, etc.)

:-D

[JE]

I have actually faced this problem three times myself. Twice with buddies that went past me and actually made it out before I did and once I made it out before my buddy did. It's a tough decision to make. So much can happen in a cave that I doubt any instructor can cover every problem. The thing they need to do is train a diver to be able to do self rescue and be a thinking well trained dive buddy. Cindy :D

Well, between 4' & 18' with a set of LP 104's on your back, pumped close to their maximum pressures, one would have a lot of time to think about things, considering that he has not panicked yet, & his ACR is still relatively low, or normal. I recall one similar incident towards the back of Bonnet, on a solo dive, where there was no one else anywhere within two miles to guide me out of a silted, clay passage, where I had become stuck, my regulators stuffed with clay, & only my thoughts to work things out. So, I proceeded to dig the clay out of my 2nd stages, while my breathing rate settled down, & the silt also began clearing. { you have some flow at times in Bonnet} After all, even at 25', I had several hours to work things out, with my lowered breathing rate. I was indeed laughing at my self...'stuck in a silted out tunnel, with clogged regulators'-! What else could happen-? Naaaawwwww.....this was fun, huh- :P It didn't take long, maybe twenty minutes or so, my regs, were cleaned, I backed out of where I was, found the line, & finished the dive. No big deal.
Then there was the one inside Luraville 1, before Cathy owned it.....That was fun too-!
8)

Jack

[skip]

The scenario is true. I was the leader and got wrapped and twanged off into the unknown.

Right or wrong here's how it resolved: First thing I did was stop moving and pressed the fin against the cave wall to get a bit of relief from the cramp (since I couldn't reach down and grab the fin). Then relaxed and assessed, plenty of gas, yep stuck tight. Exhaling helped a bit and I got one arm up to inflator and was then able to deflate BC, which gave me wiggle room to "scootch" down fin-first. and I checked the depth. the crack widened as I scootched down and then I dropped to the floor, tied off a safety reel and began the lost line search.

I figured the darkest area, most silty was where I'd come from, so headed back into it and be darned if I didn't come out of cloud just in time to see buddy with his light slowly moving back and forth. He was near the mainline.

Buddy had been waiting, figuring how much time and air to use in a search, and knowing that we were on a large flat bedding plain figured I might have shot off and around coming back on the mainline up ahead aways. That's where he went to look and not finding me in a reasonable time, returned to the silt-out area, and began tying off a safety reel to come in the cloud to find me. He didn't get far when I emerged from the cloud.

Never so glad to see him in all my life! I could see the relief in his eyes too. Although we were only 15 or 20 minutes into the dive, we exited, leaving my line tied to the mainline as a T (to return and go that way cause there seemed to be a lot more cave over there to check out later).

I emailed my instructor and thanked him for the training. Lost line drills work.

-skip