Frog kicks and knee pain

[Jay M]

Anyone else have this issue? Originally I think I caused the problem by crossing my feet under my chair while at work, a long term stretching / stressing of things in my knee that shouldn't be stressed... It doesn't hurt on a day to day basis, or really at all unless I'm diving. Does anyone know of any exercises or stretching routines that might help?

Thanks
Jay M

[OFG-1]

WELCOME TO MY WORLD, BROTHER!! As a young guy, many many mango seasons ago, I did my knees with a dirt bike. The frog kicks did hurt. I have found that if I do leg extinsions with light weight, about 50 lbs or so, 15 reps a set, that helps keep the ligaments, or what's left, kinda sorta in place. The kicks don't bother me much anymore, but carrying my 104's is about to kill me, more so on uneven ground.

Good Luck &
CHEERS!
:drinkers:

[crazyduck]

People have said that Glucosamine can help with joints and joint pain. I am about to start this myself because I have pretty bad left shoulder pain. Between lifting tanks, sleeping on it, leaning on it at work, I use my left extremities constantly verses my right. Also I find that the GNC vitamin “Mega-man” has the best results for feeling well and being alert. The down side is the cost…cough.

You know the alterative to 108’s right :) - Is there a rebreather in your future? he he he Yellow box anyone? Take care.

Later, Andrew

[Sid]

Anyone else have this issue? Originally I think I caused the problem by crossing my feet under my chair while at work, a long term stretching / stressing of things in my knee that shouldn't be stressed... It doesn't hurt on a day to day basis, or really at all unless I'm diving. Does anyone know of any exercises or stretching routines that might help?

Jay M

Squats, squats squats, and if you don't have a rack to squat in, find a nice leg press, these compound leg exercises will make your knees into monsters (strong and maybe larger if you have the genetics). Always make sure whatever leg excercise that you get proffesional instruction, build up the weight gradual as your strength increses and always make sure during your range of motion that your knees aren't moving in a line above your toes. I have osgood slaughters in my knees, hence th huge calcium deposits below the knees, and because of little exercise can climb up stairs with my gear on very securely, and rarely have anything going on painfail these days, I really believe that strengthening of the huge quad and hamstring muscles makes it possible to recrute to smaller muscles around the kness that often get tweeked during less familiar motion like frogkicking. And as you might guess frogkicking on a regular basis will also get those knees tuned up, it's probably just your body doing something new (BTW pull and glide, pull and glide will help too). Take care, Sid
Thanks

[Kelly Jessop]

Anyone else have this issue? Originally I think I caused the problem by crossing my feet under my chair while at work, a long term stretching / stressing of things in my knee that shouldn't be stressed... It doesn't hurt on a day to day basis, or really at all unless I'm diving. Does anyone know of any exercises or stretching routines that might help?

Thanks
Jay M

Your post doesn't mention specifically where your knee hurts,what part of the stroke cycle it causes pain etc.

The frog kick places a lot of valgus stress to the knee at the propulsion phase-this means that most of the stress is placed at the medial or inside of the knee. There are ligamentous structures and meniscus (disk) that will receive some of the force.

You may consider modifying your stroke. I'd recommend using a modified flutter kick or change the amplitude of the frog kick.

[Kelly Jessop]

Anyone else have this issue? Originally I think I caused the problem by crossing my feet under my chair while at work, a long term stretching / stressing of things in my knee that shouldn't be stressed... It doesn't hurt on a day to day basis, or really at all unless I'm diving. Does anyone know of any exercises or stretching routines that might help?

Jay M

Squats, squats squats, and if you don't have a rack to squat in, find a nice leg press, these compound leg exercises will make your knees into monsters (strong and maybe larger if you have the genetics). Always make sure whatever leg excercise that you get proffesional instruction, build up the weight gradual as your strength increses and always make sure during your range of motion that your knees aren't moving in a line above your toes. I have osgood slaughters in my knees, hence th huge calcium deposits below the knees, and because of little exercise can climb up stairs with my gear on very securely, and rarely have anything going on painfail these days, I really believe that strengthening of the huge quad and hamstring muscles makes it possible to recrute to smaller muscles around the kness that often get tweeked during less familiar motion like frogkicking. And as you might guess frogkicking on a regular basis will also get those knees tuned up, it's probably just your body doing something new (BTW pull and glide, pull and glide will help too). Take care, Sid
Thanks

Squats are good,if you don't have a patellar-femoral condition. I'd agree well balanced quad/hamstring strength is good,but when you are frog kicking don't forget the adductor complex (inside of your thigh)

[Angie Reim]

If the pain is on the interior left and right sides, try putting more propulsion into the kick using the ankles. When the ankles tire, put the emphasis back on the knee. Alternate between the muscle groups throughout the dive. Eases the pressure on the knee. Like Sid said also do exercises to build up the quads and calves between dive trips.

Angie

[Jay M]

The "pain" feels like it's right in that little soft spot just to the lower inside of the kneecap. At first it will seem like it's just sore, but that builds throughout the dive. Never really reaches the sharp stage, and it doesn't continue long after the dive. No problems when I'm moving the gear either.

I'll try to modify my kick next time I hit the water, add more ankle motion and try to cut down on the amount of water I'm trying to push. Modified flutter works OK, but it doesn't seem to be very efficient. I've been using it to give myself breaks, maybe it will help if I use it a bit more.

[Kelly Jessop]

The "pain" feels like it's right in that little soft spot just to the lower inside of the kneecap. At first it will seem like it's just sore, but that builds throughout the dive. Never really reaches the sharp stage, and it doesn't continue long after the dive. No problems when I'm moving the gear either.

I'll try to modify my kick next time I hit the water, add more ankle motion and try to cut down on the amount of water I'm trying to push. Modified flutter works OK, but it doesn't seem to be very efficient. I've been using it to give myself breaks, maybe it will help if I use it a bit more.
Can you PM me

[Dwain]

This is a good place to start...

The site has great exercises for all parts of the body.

http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/freeexercise.cfm

Proper fitness will help from cramping also.

[swimndive]

The pain you are experiencing is typical of an overuse syndrome often seen in swimmer's and usually refereed to as breaststrokers' knee. It's a type of mcl strain, often caused by too flat of a catch phase or too wide of a power phase during the application of power during the kick. Treatment basically consists of rest and ice. Prevention can range from proper warm up, stretching and exercises (see links), changing the mechanics of your kick (many wide kicking cavers have adapted a scissors style to their frog kick), or simply using narrower or more flexible fins. Here's some reading material to get you pointed in the right direction.

Breaststrokers's knee epidemiology:
http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1999/04_99/kammer.htm
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0436.htm

If you continue through the pain:
http://www.medformation.com/ac/crssma.nsf/file/crs-sma-sma_pes.anserine.bursitis

Other reading:
http://journal.ajsm.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/2/99
http://journal.ajsm.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/1/63
Pubmed abstracts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Link&db=PubMed&dbFrom=PubMed&from_uid=3985267

Some exercises stretches and strengthening drills:
http://www.swiminfo.com/articles/swimmagazine/articles/199503-01swim_art.asp
http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=991_0_20_0_C
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=445&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en-US&mid=700&ItemId=701

[BillBowden]

Because of back and knee injuries I have the world's worst frog kick. I find a modified flutter works as well, with no pain.

[Wendy]

I too suffer from knee pain, but i have been diagonesed with osteo-arthritis, aka chondramalacia patellum, bad cartledge under the knee caps. Try taking motrin before you dive and also bike riding is a good exercise, or so the physical therapist says. My knee pain while diving is when my knees are bent in the modified position, its not from frog kicking. I wear neoprene knee braces now when I dive and it helps a lot.

[Webmaster]

I have a similar problem, dislocating both your knees doesn't do much for the overall stability of the joint. Strengthening the muscles that help to hold the joint together does. If you do squats be very careful not to overdo it, there is a great deal of stress placed on the knees. Leg extensions and curls are good, bike riding (in proper position, if the seat is not at the right height this can place a lot of stress on the knees) etc...

Taking glucosamine with MSM seems to help a bit. This is supposed to provide raw material for rebuilding connective tissues.

What seems to help most for me is to continually vary the kick, even by small increments during the dive, and to relax and try not to kick too hard.