Arrows in the Mud

[Serota]

Why would anyone draw large arrows in the mud directly under the line in the Peanut tunnel at Peacock? Observed 2 or 3 instances of this yesterday. This wasn't just someone out of control sticking there hands in the mud, but done by someone with at least enough bouyancy control to hover there while they did it, which I find disturbing.

[JDostal]

Because some people are stupid and have no respect for the beauty of nature.

You see it everywhere unfortunately, not just in caves.

I was lucky to be brought up with a respect towards certain things... it makes me sick to see that sort of crap.

We even see it in Wisconsin and the UP. I'm leaving on a backpacking trip tomorrow afternoon. I can guarantee that at some point this weekend I'll see the results of some jackass that brought an axe or a saw with him on a trip. We'll be hiking through virgin forest, never before cut by man, and some @%*! will see fit to chop halfway through a tree or some other stupid act. It's protected wilderness, pristine and beautiful...yet some developmentally challenged cretins just don't seem to like it until they trash it.

It ain't just in the caves, unfortunately.

[DeepSea]

I saw this a couple of weeks ago...Overall, the Peanut tunnel is pretty well trashed up to the Crossover Tunnel. Back at the Peanut restriction if is still nice.

[Tegg]

Lack of respect for nature is something that certain people have. The problem now is apparently they are getting into cavediving as of late and the instructors arent seeing it / dont' care cause the money comes in...


When anyone can enter a dry cave, there is the same kind of "damage". Now go cave in a "NSS Protected Cave" where there is a guide/expierenced only system... 2 completely different worlds....

Maybe cavediving standards need to be adjusted so that when people get a cave card they respect the fact that they are stewards of the caves and they have to conserve them to continue this activity.

When getting a cave card is as easy as going to the 7-11 to buy one, it will have a negative effect.

[DiveTrain]

One thing that might be good is an overall ettiquette sign at the steps to the more popular or more fragile caves. I know it shouldn't be necessary but in this case I'm sure the person that drew the arrow was thinking it was a good thing. Calling mud pretty and pristine isn't in most peoples vocabulary so writing in it may not register at all with some people as something not to do in a cave.

CJ

[DeepSea]

overall ettiquette

Overall etiquette of divers seems to suck in the more popular caves -- more divers so I guess it stands to reason.

Upon exiting on 2 recent dives at Peacock (I now remember why I hadn't dove there in year and a half) with an Intro diver we were met by entering teams. Neither team cave the exiting team (us) the right of way. The simply trudged through the middle of the cave while we decided to stay to the side and let them pass.

IMHO, it isn't just cave conservation that is not being learned. It is also etiquette.

[Dave]

Calling mud pretty and pristine isn't in most peoples vocabulary so writing in it may not register at all with some people as something not to do in a cave.

CJ
Thats a very good point CJ, I bet I could round up a dozen people who think the steps at Peacock are a desecration of a beautiful spring.
I could find just as many who could care less about an arrow in the mud in a place that only a handful of crazy divers go look at. Its all about perception, and sadly more and more cavedivers seem to have a poor perception of what we call magnificent ( or in the peanut tunnel case, what WAS magnificent). Funny thing is though, I have never seen, met or heard of anyone who would do that sort of thing. Where do they come from? Where are they all?

Dave

[Angie Reim]

One thing that might be good is an overall ettiquette sign at the steps to the more popular or more fragile caves. I know it shouldn't be necessary but in this case I'm sure the person that drew the arrow was thinking it was a good thing. Calling mud pretty and pristine isn't in most peoples vocabulary so writing in it may not register at all with some people as something not to do in a cave.

CJ


That may be true, but that would also be upsetting and sad.

Perhaps an ettiquette sign would help and I guess it wouldn't hurt. At least you are thinking of something that might be helpful which I find refreshing. Most people just whine. That being said -- it is kind of scary to think that someone diving a cave would need it and would not already know.

During all of my 'official' cave training and the years since there has always been an emphasis by instructors, mentors, fellow divers, etc on NOT marking the caves. Stuff happens but it should never be deliberate. Cave divers pick at each other (good naturedly) if they do bang up the cave with tanks, bury a fin in silt and so forth. Most of us get annoyed with ourselves if we mess up the vis or mark/chip a rock.

Sometimes there are places I can go in sidemount but I don't, I just look from a distance and sigh... because my passage alone would mess up the floor or break delicate rock formations.

In these systems sediments - including mud - and formations take many years to develop and change. Marks in the mud often stay there for decades.

Angie

[DiveTrain]

Another thing that might help is to count each time you make unintentional contact with the cave...contact which could have been avoided. By doing this and sharing with your dive buddies at the end of the dive (who are doing the same) you will be more contientious of the formations and more aware of where your tanks are. High person buys low persons next air fill.

Each dive should be a training dive.

CJ

[jammer]

if i see something like this going on i will report it to the offical and i hope they do not let you dive any state parks again ever.

[DiveTrain]

if i see something like this going on i will report it to the offical and i hope they do not let you dive any state parks again ever.

Were you talking about me and my post?

CJ

[Angie Reim]

Naw! He means catching someone messing in the clay or mud.

I would get pretty pissed too. Maybe PO'd enough to whack someone upside the head catching 'em doing that......then hide (run/fin away) behind the anonymity of cave gear. :twisted:

[DiveTrain]

I can see it now...cave diver registration. Must have registration number on tanks anyone caught doing anything wrong will be put on probation...1 year later...redneck bumper stickers will start appearing on tanks "Hows my diving...call 1-800-eat-silt."


Nope thats a bad idea. ;-)

CJ

[Tegg]

I can see it now...cave diver registration. Must have registration number on tanks anyone caught doing anything wrong will be put on probation...1 year later...redneck bumper stickers will start appearing on tanks "Hows my diving...call 1-800-eat-silt."



What if some of us "rednecks" already have these stickers? :?

[Angie Reim]

I had just convinced myself it was a good idea to spray paint my last name on my tanks and gear. Now I know better......... :-D

[DiveTrain]

I can see it now...cave diver registration. Must have registration number on tanks anyone caught doing anything wrong will be put on probation...1 year later...redneck bumper stickers will start appearing on tanks "Hows my diving...call 1-800-eat-silt."



What if some of us "rednecks" already have these stickers? :?


I thought I saw it somewhere... :D

[Serota]

I know the people who defaced the cave are lowlife slobs, but I was wondering if they were also so incompetent that they didn't understand what the little yellow arrows on the line represent, so they decided to "install" their own.

[Kelly Jessop]

I know the people who defaced the cave are lowlife slobs, but I was wondering if they were also so incompetent that they didn't understand what the little yellow arrows on the line represent, so they decided to "install" their own.
They are more than low life slobs,but breaking Florida law,and if caught will be prosecuted under Florida law,too bad it isn't a capital offense.

[stairman]

I dont think theyd help him much for getting out under bad vis conditions.Especially since that systems got arrows every 100ft.Pointless and ignorant is all I can say.

[SemorBugs]

My buddy and I swam out the Peanut line last Sunday. We saw the markings drawn in the Mud. After surfacing we had a discussion on it and thought the same. What the Hell? It was nice to get out on the Olsen line where things are a lot more presitine.

[jammer]

I saw a post on here about seeing things in the cave system. Some say they have seen Elvis and so on but I think that there is some Dairy Farmers in there cause it looks like a herd of cows have been through the system.

I just can't see anyone doing that kinda thing as to do something like draw line arrows in the silt. And if the one who did it is a member of this forum or if you read it I hope you know now that you are an absolute moron.

[novadiver]

and yet everyone who saw these markings did nothing to erase them. Maybe being proactive in cave conservation would top bitching about it.
Most divers I know would pick up any trash they saw in a cave , why not gently erasing the stupid stuff?


I just thought of something!!!!!! Maybe an eraser cert :D

[Janet]

I read this post and have asked an experienced dive team to try to pat the arrows out and I've asked an instructor who is here today to repair the area if he finds them. In the future it would be good when you see something like this to write it down on a piece of paper and place it inside the iron ranger at the park entrance so we can ask a line committee person to check it out or a person experienced in clay repair to check it out.
Thank You,
Janet

[flyczek]

Maybe someone experienced in "erasing" could post a good explanation of how to properly erase. What tools to use, technique, safety and when it is or isn't appropriate. Maybe the mods could make it a sticky somewhere? Cave conservation?

I have been dissapointed seeing the gashes in the mud at Peacock and would like to help, but don't want to breach etiquette, endanger someone else in the cave or make the situation worse through a bungled attempt.

I know within the cumulative experience of this forum the answers are out there.

[Alan Garrett]

I'd say it's probably best not to try anything too extreme and let Mama Nature take a crack at it first. The monsoon season and a couple of river intrusions have been known to cover a multitude of sins. Whadda Ya'll think? :wink:

[DeepSea]

The monsoon season and a couple of river intrusions have been known to cover a multitude of sins. Whadda Ya'll think? :wink:

I think you are dead on...

[Jay]

Sadly I don't think it has anything to do with what these folks are taught about conservation because I am pretty confident they have been asked to not damage the systems during training and everywhere they turn.

They are just pieces of cr@p. Banning them from the state parks will prevent them from damaging those caves, but they will find others. Unfortunately the only way to get the point across to them would entail some form of direct action that their type would understand.

[Gibby]

Unfortunately the only way to get the point across to them would entail some form of direct action that their type would understand.


Asking nicely doesn’t seem to have the effect it did in the good ol days.
I'm a firm believer that violence solves everything

~G

[novadiver]

Maybe someone experienced in "erasing" could post a good explanation of how to properly erase. What tools to use, technique, safety and when it is or isn't appropriate. Maybe the mods could make it a sticky somewhere? Cave conservation?

I have been dissapointed seeing the gashes in the mud at Peacock and would like to help, but don't want to breach etiquette, endanger someone else in the cave or make the situation worse through a bungled attempt.

I know within the cumulative experience of this forum the answers are out there.

Ok , Maybe "erasing" was a piss poor word to use. lets think about as "restoration conservation". The important thing is to camouflage it to look like nothing was there in the first place. Think of it like a golfer fixing a divot on a green.

If divers start fixing their own mistakes , a very few will actually start to show an artistic quality to their work, and be able to handle some of the bigger gashes , hand prints, scooter skid marks, face plants , knee marks etc.