Main Line Change without Reason

[Viracocha]

Violation of the Relation and Trust of Cave Diving Community


Today I went diving in the Cenote Caracol “Labnaha”
The plan was to dive along the main line (upstream) with my clients Tanja Walter and Bernhard Gottwald. Everything goes as planned until we reach the “beginning” of the main line.
But the line wasn’t there anymore.. First I thought I’m having trouble with my eyes but realized very fast that somebody has changed the mainline.
Picture this scenario: the original explorer and owner of a cave system with more than 500 cave dives in this system takes his clients for a dive, explains everything in a briefing, very sure about the dive and lines. But once in the water can’t find the main line on the first try.
It has moved from the ground to the ceiling. How does that make you look in front of the clients??
Because a group of divers (one from Colorado and two from Florida) which come down here once a year to dive a little in the Riviera Maya.
Having very little experience in the Caracol cave system (only two dives in total) decide to change the beginning of the main line on their SECOND DIVE.
And don’t even bother to tell us after the dive even though we were having a little chat after the dive. While they got out of the water I was returning with my clients from a dive on the downstream section in the Caracol Cave System. Both teams surfaced at the same time and there was plenty time for a comment on the line change.
How would you feel if somebody from here would come to Florida and let’s say Ginnie Springs and change the main line on their second dive there without telling anyone and fly back home like nothing happened?
I think I would cause a big scandal and people wouldn’t let us anymore dive in Florida Cave systems without a local guide..
Well, the same is happening here many cave divers ask themselves why it would be that they have to use a local guide.. here you have ONE very good reason.
Am I right??

What’s up with Landowner relationship?? Security?? And Respect??

I think during the cave courses the instructors should emphasize a little more on this part of the education.

Sergio Granucci
sergio@labnaha.com

[FW]

A brief history of lines in caves:

The early cave divers removed their line after *every* dive. From what I have learned, the practice of leaving "permanent" lines didn't start until around 1960. Even back then, there was disagreement about where the lines should be.

You mentioned Ginnie (really Devil's Eye). In the 1970s, one never knew from one day to the next where the "permanent" line would start. It was moved often from the "Lips", the "Keyhole", and as far back as the split to the "Bone Room". I have done a morning dive, and come back in the afternoon to find the line cut back 100' or more.

The caves don't come with lines, so it is up to the diver to make sure there is a line, even if he/she has to put it in them self.

I agree that if it is on your property, you have some say in the matter, but on the other hand, you shouldn't be surprised to find it damaged, or just moved.

I have been to the "Riviera Maya" many times, and I have seen the guides looking for the line quite often. I don't think that incident is unique at all.

[Tegg]

If we used kevlar cave line, this would not be an issue.

[Moonfuzzy]

Sure, if those divers made a major chance they should have mentioned the line change to the next team.

You are wrong - If this happened in FL we we wouldn't start trying to enforce guide requirements. Like Forest said, you never know what the line condition is going to be when you go in, that is part of the terrirory.

If you own the cave and don't want line changes made you may want to post or mention that to the divers going in. They may not know and believe that the line was an entanglement hazard, or frayed, etc.

question - If they didn't talk to you about changing the line around, how do you know that THEY are the ones who did it?

[J P Jones]

I think most of us do. But blaming training for the act of two divers is not going to help. I have flunked people for that attitude and most of us that teach in Florida do as do the ones I know in Mexico.

If you catch them post their names so we can all chastise them.

[Cindy]

I say "String em UP" !!!!!! : D Sorry, but the whole line thing is getting silly. How many lines about lines do we have to read? The guy who moved it most likely did so because there was a problem. I doubt if there was an international conspiracy. Most of the places like the one you are talking about don't exactly have a message board for people to post changes and problems on. The guys may not have been able to communicate what happened. Why not just fix it back the way you want it? I can see where you might be embarrassed but the divers you were guiding should have been able to handle changes like that. It happened to me at Alachua not long ago. I took people in and the cavern line was changed. The line was in a much better place! Cindy Butler

[Viracocha]

What a pity that it is common in Florida to make changes to well-placed lines.
Here in Mexico we are not used to people messing so badly around with our lines.
Since almost all the lines are well-placed there is NO need to change anything.
If some divers think that an improvement to a line has to be done, the safety committee which includes all the cave instructors in the area gets together to discuss the matter and if they decide that a change is needed cave instructors will go to change the line.
Never has there been a case where inexperienced divers in the area had to make changes for whatever reason. If a problem occurs the divers have to report the changes to the safety committee which will make sure the line is still in a safe location or safely repaired.
Each time some “ tourist “ cave divers appear and change lines , T’s , Jumps etc it upsets the local cave diving community .
Since we live and dive in the 21st century we try to be more organized than they were in the sixties.
It upset me because these divers surfaced right after me and didn’t tell me about the changes made. I am sure these divers changed the line because this cave is my second home.
Since the cave systems here are so much more complex than the US caves every little change might confuse any cave diver and impact negatively on the cave system.
With our delicate cave systems we try as hard as possible to avoid destruction to the caves due to line changes, bad buoyancy control, bad kicking techniques, pull and glide, etc.
Line changes impact badly to the cave because the divers change the original path.
Imagine a field with high grass if there is only one path where people walk in single file is not nearly that much destruction as if people walk all over the place .
That’s my opinion.

[Cindy]

You have got to be kidding me! How many posts have I read about line changes (dozens), arrow controversy, , marked airbells, tanks missing, lines removed and moved and you want to convince us that your caves don't have those problems. Best laugh I have had all day! Mexico has been the hotbed of controversy in that corner. This has got to be some sort of tease. So honey, come on up and I'll show you the wild west. :D I love you strong willed latino types! Cindy :smt055

[Moonfuzzy]

I wouldn't say that it is common in Florida. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have seen the main line in 'tourist' cave moved. If there is a problem it is usually reported to a line comittee and they take care of it. If it is a major problem a stop-gap is put in place until a permanant solution is installed.

On the other hand there have been several times in river caves, infrequently used passage, or maybe a cave after a flood where the line was in bad condition (frayed, loose, or missing completely) and needed attention. When that happens I take care of it, if possible.

Because of that I don't get tweaked out when someone moves the line... and if the line move is damaging to the cave I would move it back.


The main reason I can see this being a problem is that the tourists are just that, they are often not familiar with the cave themselves and are relying on an expert. If they know the cave it shouldn't affect the dive, if they are learning the cave as they go it shouldn't affect the dive, but if they are heading for some unfamiliar goal then this could screw up a dive - but maybe keep them out of a dangerous 'trust-me' situation.

[Cindy]

Hey See,

www.safecavediving.com/newsite/html/news.htm

scroll down to the bottom of the page. There is info about line issues in 1993 and 1994.
I agree the group should have said something. Knowing cave divers they most likely had a problem and were afraid to say anything. Very few people really know there is a safety officer in Mexico or who they should contact. Did you check and see if they did contact the safety officer?

While I have seen a lot of posts about problems with lines in Mexico. I have only seen a few "problems" with lines there. Most of the lines are in places that do cut down on damage from traffic and are well laid and maintained. I appreciated the efforts that went into them.

While I say all this I still stand by my posts that there are as many if not more problems with lines in Mexico. If you encourage tourism and many, many divers from all over the world you will find that your going to have these problems. Getting upset about them or thinking that the US is to blame is counterproductive. I know there is a big push for all diving to be guided in Mexico. I hope you can manage to resolve your issues and we can resolve ours. I think that education and co-operation will go a lot farther than controversy and put downs about other divers. Just my opinion of course, Cindy Butler