Upstream Manatee - how to move in the flow?

[brianstclair]

Dove Manatee upstream yesterday with my buddy (viz 15-25') and I was curious what techniques you all have tried to move against that flow? I didn't see many places to pull - the bottom for the most part looked like sand and some clay - and the viz plus the fact that I'm not very familiar with the cave yet made me want to stay fairly close to the line. Any good places to get out of the flow? Ceiling walking where the ceiling was a little lower and near where it met the floor seemed to work a little.

We only went in maybe two or three hundred feet and my buddy turned on thirds (intro diver on a single tank). I've heard that once you get past a certain point the flow dies down a little? Is that true?

Just curious to see how you guys approach the first couple hundred feet of that cave. It looks pretty big, by the way - I'm looking forward to more dives in there!

Brian

[FW]

Sheck Exley had published a list of propulsion techniques for various caves. IIRC, the one for that part of Manatee was called "groveling". Basicallly you stuck both hands down in the sand, and pulled yourself forward like "pull and glide". His concept was, the current would move the silt so fast that it wouldn't be a problem.

I suspect that technique would be frowned on today for conservation reasons.

[Cave Ranger]

I dove that stretch of Catfish Hotel for the first time last August. The conditions were the same as you described. Strong flow, 15 feet of viz and a lot of particulates. By the time we got to Sue Sink we were pretty winded. Once you get to Sue Sink though you can catch a breather out of the flow behind the Debris cone. I'm not sure after that as that is as far as I've been.
Your right. Pull and Glide isn't much of an option.
Your reward though is a fun ride out with the flow, neutrally bouyant and flying like Superman through a tunnel. WooHoo!! :smt059

[mpoucher]

Flow in Manatee is almost always high, but it seems particulalry high right now. Its tidally influenced and high tides reduce the flow a little. You can get out of the flow in some places by getting behind columns or in alcoves, but it takes a few dives to learn them. The flow reduces some once you pass the sewer tunnel (about p.1700') and again when you pass the Milk Tunnel (about p. 2700'). The worst spots are at Sue Sink and coming up on Friedman's Sink. We were in a couple weeks ago and we were being blown all over the passage as we rounded corners due to the flow.

[John L.]

My first dive at Manatee was a miserable experience. I too, was not familier with the system, and wanted to keep the line in sight, but I encountered the same thing, light scalloping of the walls, no hand holds and the darkness ate up my HID light. We went in at Catfish, and we made it a few hundred feet past Friedmans, but I was winded as hell at times, and had a CO2 headache from hell after the dive. The guy I was with who was familier with the cave was doing the sand dig on the bottom, and I too resorted to that also. At Sue's sink, I was literally thrown backward down the debris cone. I was a negative as I could get, scratching and clawing trying to put on the brakes. And when you get back to Catfish, you have to walk a mile to get back to your vehicle. Fun stuff. I am getting my scooter lessons next week, and I will tackle it again with it.

[JE]

We would enter @ Friedman's & swim downstream with the flow to Catfish, or upstream against it, but it seemed a lot easier from there.

JE

[aw]

If the flow is always a problem in Manatee, why can't we add a poor man's scooter (pull rope) up to Sue's sink like we did in Cow?

I know it's unorthodox and some will say we need to learn the cave, etc. etc. But I do think it would make the dive more fun, esp when you're not doing 15 dives there to "learn" the cave in the next number of weeks. It would also reduce the temptation for those not real familiar with the system to just enter at Friedman's and fly downstream. One of them "trust me" kind of things.

[jpdiver]

are scooters allowed at Manatee?

[John L.]

If the flow is always a problem in Manatee, why can't we add a poor man's scooter (pull rope) up to Sue's sink like we did in Cow?

.

Now that's a real good idea.

[ARY]

I suspect that technique would be frowned on today for conservation reasons.
What's wrong with scooping? Flow and mud should heal the damage fast i would think. Also it is the only method to bail out from syphon in Catfish if you need it. Too bad you still can scoop a broken glass though...

Scooters are ok in Manatee as far as i know but the section between Satfish and Spring not suitable for vehicles.

[brianstclair]

Sheck Exley had published a list of propulsion techniques for various caves. IIRC, the one for that part of Manatee was called "groveling". Basicallly you stuck both hands down in the sand, and pulled yourself forward like "pull and glide". His concept was, the current would move the silt so fast that it wouldn't be a problem.

I suspect that technique would be frowned on today for conservation reasons.

That's a great name for a propulsion technique. Is this a serious concern from a conservation standpoint as long as the bottom is sand and not clay? Aside from not helping the viz for anyone downstream of you, it doesn't seem like it would really do any damage to the cave, provided it's sand and not clay you're up to your elbow in.

Thanks, everyone, for the helpful responses. From what I saw, it seems like a pretty cool cave. Anyone who's done Friedman's to Catfish interested in diving it with a few newly minted cave divers sometime?

Brian

(Posted at the same time as ARY...)

[FloridaCaveDiver]

are scooters allowed at Manatee?

Yes and it is the only way I will dive there due to all the reasons posted.

[aw]

Hey, John L. Nice new avatar. Just hope the pic isn't one from when you were at work. I'd hate to have any omens. . . especially on this board. :lol:

[John L.]

Hey, John L. Nice new avatar. Just hope the pic isn't one from when you were at work. I'd hate to have any omens. . . especially on this board. :lol:

Hey Alan, got that picture from the bullentin board at the post office!

[Ken Hill]

Manatee has always been one of my favorite dives, especially in low flow seasons. In Tom Mount's "Safe Cave Diving" book from 1973 Chapter 6, written by Sheck Exley uses the term "Shoveling" which I think was called something different in an earlier post. Shoveling involves sinking each hand into the course deep sand in high flow caves and alternating each arm, therefore pulling yourself along. The master of Manatee was the late Henry Nicholson and I recall following him up the left side of the passage just before "Sue." "Shoveling" up the sand mound and then pulling on the rock while hanging out like a flag in the wind and never silting the cave nor breaking a sweat. There was no way to swim it.

If you ever want to replicate history, in January 1961 the first cave diving traverse was from the headspring to Catfish Hotel.

One useful tip. If you watch where the flow pushes you on the way out that is not the route to take the next time on the way in.

As a side note (chuckle) there is a mention of the "Little River Leap" where you use your arms in a "breast stroke" type maneuver and pull yourself along the cave where the opposite walls are 2 or 3 feet apart.

/Ken

[lonestarfl]

I have done some great dives at Manatee. When the conditions are right, the river is in flood, I have had 100' viz, blue water, minimal flow, and NO particulate. I thought I was in a different cave system...in the front half you can't believe how far back the tunnel cuts under until you are in this clear water condition.
Usually this system is just a test of your kick and cardiovascular efficiency. If you are going to dive this system in high flow conditions consider getting someone to take you into Freidmans sink...the viz and flow from this point upstream are definitely better than the front section through all the sinks. Ideally, similar to Jackson Blue. this is a scooter cave. Even if you dial the scooter down so that you can safely/slowly visual new tunnel for the first few times. You will still enjoy the dive more and have a safer dive when your breathing rate is slow and you can focus on the line and the cave instead of the next hand hold and your horrible gas consumption.
Safe Diving,
Lee

[FW]

In Tom Mount's "Safe Cave Diving" book from 1973 Chapter 6, written by Sheck Exley uses the term "Shoveling" which I think was called something different in an earlier post.
/Ken

Ken is correct, it was "shoveling" not "groveling". That is why I put in "IIRC" :-)

[Ken Hill]

Forrest, perhaps you were right and it should be the term:

Grovel - To behave in a servile or demeaning manner; cringe.
To lie or creep in a prostrate position, as in subservience or humility.

Groveling - Lying prone; low; debased.


Hmmm that about descibes how I see the flow at the headspring (hee hee). /Ken

All kidding aside as Lee states the cave is very wide at spots and there are many areas yet to be seen or explored. Just before Sue there is a passage and a shaft off to the left. NO flow and nasty. It's a different cave when clear and HID may make the possibility of finding new passage near the front possible.