TDI sump instructor

[Dave]

Are there any instructors in the GA/FL area doing a "TDI sump diver" course?

Dave

[DeWayne]

How long has TDI been offering this specialty? This is the first I have ever of heard of it, but if taught right, I expect that it would probably make for an excellent course. It will be interesting to see where this thread goes.

[Arnold Mesiser]

How long has TDI been offering this specialty? This is the first I have ever of heard of it, but if taught right, I expect that it would probably make for an excellent course. It will be interesting to see where this thread goes.

I wish the nss or nacd taught one

[Cindy]

I just checked the TDI web site and don't see it as a course. I think that sump diving can't be taught that way. For one thing you need the co-operation of dry cavers in most cases. The diver needs dry caving skills. I was mentored by Duncan Price and Forrest Wilson. For my dry caving skills I went to the local grotto and trained with Brian Williams. Brian does the vertical course each year for the CDS. I do know that Martin Farr does teach that course in the UK, it a takes several weeks. I am not sure if it is an 'official' one. I do know you have to be a dry caver first. I would recommend taking a side mount course, getting vertical and dry caving experience and then looking for a mentor. We have taken new sump divers on trips. Forrest does this more than anyone. I don't recommend it. It's very hard on you. We often cave in over a mile of dry cave to get to the sump to dive and that is hauling all your cave diving gear. Learning to move in a dry cave is just as different as learning swim kicks for cave diving. I am very slow compaired to most dry cavers because of my age and the fact I have only been dry caving a few years. I figure I am doing good to drag myself into the cave and get to the water. Once in the water though I can get the job done. So in summery, don't take a course, it's not something you can learn in a couple of weekends. Get dry caving contacts and start learning dry caving. Learn how to survey both dry and wet caves. Take a sidemount course and start using different rigs and learn to be adaptable to the tools at hand. Get a mentor or sign up for some of the sump trips as a "shrepa'. Good luck and have fun. There is nothing like the sensation of going through a sump (cracking the sump) and finding going cave on the other side. It's a world that has never been touched. You will be the first human to breathe the air and step on the land. True sump diving though is a group effort from two caving disiplines. Once you establish yourself as having the skills needed the local dry cavers will start asking you to check things out for them. It should not be taken on as a recreational sport. It is usually done at great cost and effort to provide survey data and increase knowledge of a dry cave. It takes time to learn but it is well worth the effort. Cindy Butler :)

[FW]

What she said :-)

If you are serious, PM me.

Forrest Wilson

[Cindy]

Hey, I just had a bell go off in my head! Is this David from the Climax trip? If so you are a glutten for punishment. :lol: Cindy :)

[FW]

I wish the nss or nacd taught one

The NSS-CDS is considering setting one up.

[Cindy]

That's perfect Forrest. What card will I need next? Tank carry card? Oh, I know, how about a science diver card, explorer card, photographer card, van driver card (wait, I have one of those!) mmmmmmm :BlinkAlarm I'll take the class if you do.. :P Cindy Butler

This David also posted on TDS. He was mostly looking for a crossover from GUE to TDI and someone suggested he take something "simple" like sump diving. I think they were pulling his chain and he took it too serious. I think there is only a demand for sump divers because everyone is talking about it right now. If someone is "REALLY" interested they will go to you or one of the other active sump divers for help. This would be a class that is a waste of paper work. One tough sump trip will run 80% of them off and they will have wasted their money. BUT, if someone wants to carry my tanks and let me TEACH. I will be glad to give you a nice shiney laminated card. CSofS certification is the best. $400 big boy, I'll teach you all about crawling through mud and hauling gear around for miles in a cave. Most importantly how to stay alive doing so. Jason Richards will help. He's more expensive though.

[Dave]

Thanks for the information Cindy, but not really the info I required ;)

Forrest, I sent you a PM

Cheers
Dave

[Cindy]

I just read the other forum David, I thought you got what you wanted. Seriously, Forrest is a good mentor for you if you really want to learn sump diving. If you are still just looking for a card the class won't exist before December when you go back home and Forrest is no longer a certifying instructor. There are several side mount instructors though and I am sure that Forrest can refer you to them. Good luck, Cindy :)

[Dave]

Cheers Cindy....too many hobbies and not enough hours in the day, thats my biggest problem!
At least Forrest (and the sumps) are closer that NFL.
Im looking forward to trying something new, and absorbing some info from y'all.

Dave

[Duncan Price]

I do know that Martin Farr does teach that course in the UK, it a takes several weeks. I am not sure if it is an 'official' one. I do know you have to be a dry caver first.

Martyn's course is TDI approved - its done in sidemounts because you won't be going cave diving here if you don't. You don't need to be a dry caver to do his course although some of his training sites require a moderate degree of above water porterage to dive so you'll get fit. Not any good to you if you live overseas though he does have students from mainland Europe.

Duncan

[Arnold Mesiser]

I wish the nss or nacd taught one

The NSS-CDS is considering setting one up.

GREAT news,while of course one will not become a sump diver by taking a course alone if the techniques and specific logistics can be covered in such a course coupled with mentorship and dry caving activity it would make for a better starting point.Back mount training for our caves while it is good training is not very applicable,well unless one doesn't mind people jumping on them to access systems LOL I really hope this happens but In the meantime your group of people and Duncan price have been very helpfull and open!

[Cindy]

If you take the course which I will be interested in seeing who is going to teach it in the US. I know Steve O and a couple of others who could but have very little time. It would have to be extensive and cover a lot of gournd. Most of the tag sumps require some kind of vertical work and even if you only go to "easy" ones it is a skill you will need. Now you have all this info, where are the contacts coming from? There simply isn't that big of a demand for sump divers. I think the NSS may frown on sump diving as a recreational sport. They have a lot stonger cave preservation ethic than cave divers. To me this is just a way for some people to make some money at the expense of more caves and cave divers. My opinion I have found 'doesn't mean a hill of beans in this old world'. Best of luck to you all. Sump diving has cost me a small fortune in time and money. Hope you have deep pockets. Cindy Butler :roll:

[rchrds]

Come on - experience is irrelevant. There are no new diving skills to be
learned sump diving that need a certification card. Everything that is done
sump diving is an extension of skills learned during regular cave diving-
the same as sidemount. The skills learned are learned from dry caving- and
there sure as hell does not need to be a certification card that cave divers
just "have to get" for dry caving. I am so appalled at even the suggestion
that this might be possible, I am beside myself. The evolution of the c-card
has destroyed the CDS and everything it used to stand for. Remember
conservation? Cindy has the angle- what caves are to be used for teaching
sump diving? Roosevelt? Climax? Want to see cavers get kicked out of caves
quickly? How do we quantify dry caving experience? Sure! I've been to
Warren's! I've got plenty of dry caving experience! I've been to the sand
room! Dang! did I need my vertical C-Card to climb the rope into the cave?
Shhh... dont tell anyone.

How many people are actively sump diving now? 10 maybe 15? across the whole
country? Not that many. A few in Texas (one is closer to the truth) A couple
in New York, A smattering throughout TAG- maybe 5- two in Colorado and a
couple more transients here and there between mexico and various parts of
the virginias. Do they need C cards? Do you think they want C-cards? Who the
hell is going to ask to see their C-Card?

What would be the point in producing a C-card that has absolutely no
practical value- and is nothing more than a money making ploy that allows
the assholes who have more money than brains and conscience to add to their
egos?

If you want to learn sump diving get with some sump divers. They are always looking for people to help with trips, and if you can hang, odds are very good you will get asked back to dive on the next trip. There arent that many, and its for a good reason. If you want a c-card here's how to practice: put all your dive gear in a bag, tie a piece of webbing to a stage bottle valve, and wrap the webbing around your leg. Now go find a well used swamp buggy racing track. Low craw pushing your bag in front for 12 hours up and down the track. then go diving somewhere else. Tell me later if you think that was worth a C-card. If you think I'm kidding ask Cindy how far from the truth that is.

Just like every other kind of cave diving- you will never learn the skills as well for the sake of a C-card as you would with folks of like mind who have a purpose and a standard. Find the people who are diving the way you want to dive, shut your mouth, open your ears and learn. They probably have more interest in teaching you well since they plan on diving with you, not taking your money.

Damn- I sound like Irvine. Sorry for that.

[rchrds]

Jason Richards will help. He's more expensive though.

Not more expensive- more painful. I don't charge for any sort of instruction- but then you may not finish either, and you may not like me as well. That's fine.

[Limestone Cowboy]

Jason, that was a classic post and right on the money. I feel the same way about most of cavediving and technical diving....

Drew

[rchrds]

Wow-, sorry for jumping on the flame wagon yesterday. As you can tell, I'm not excited about the concept. Let me try to make a helpful input in this regard, as obviously someone is talking about making this happen, even if it is just Forrest, and perhaps he made an accidental off-hand comment.

I agree that sump diving should be in the conversation stream, and that the CDS has an important role in that regard.
Just as in cave diving, where the CDS assumed the role of informing people of the risks and dangers by publishing sheck's book, then later the cave diving handbook, the CDS has a responsibility to discuss subjects that the membership has interest in by publishing related information in UWS and discussing these things at the conventions. I understand that for the first year in many, the convention was on track and pertinent with changes in cave diving, and covered lots of rebreather information. Congratulations. You have the perfect forum in UWS for presenting much of the information that could be put out. If there really is that much interest in sump diving (I dont think there is) it would make sense to have a special sump issue once a year and have the editor chase down folks like Bill Stone, Joe Kaffl, R.D. Milholland, Forrest and his crew, and get these guys to write short technique oriented articles, and information on how people can get involved. For example (how interesting!) I look back at a Kaffl article from Jan/Feb 05 and find this about NEST- "It is not a certification agency, we do share at no cost our experience regarding, equipment design and techniques among qualified members." So, though we have never met, Joseph and I seem to share some common beliefs about the training of sump divers. How about holding a CDS function such as a "training camp" (AKA sherpa learners course) that coincides with someone's push dive? I can think of a couple of projects that would love to have a bunch of wannabe sump divers who would learn a bunch by merely going on someone else's dive- things like the importance of tank bags- and how not to pack too much ####. (Cindy :)

I think that I may have hit on my own best idea, and you or anyone else is welcome to bring it to the board's attention. Start a discussion with the folks who are working on these projects. Call it a CDS training camp- and invite whoever wants to come to meet these folks and assist in the sump effort. That's how it works in sump diving. You dont dive the first time, unless you find your own sherpas and your own cave. Make a weekend of it- everyone gets some good dry caving in, and some legitimate sump diving training as well.

I have one- in fact I have one this weekend on Saturday in TAG- anyone who wants is welcome to come help, and it wont even be that miserable. A little late for any formal organization, but bring your helmet and wetsuit, and I'll shove folks in the cave.

Jason
rchrds@sw.rr.com

[Dave Lizdas]

hey everyone. Cindy, I'm the Dave from Climax. different dave. I mostly lurk. I'll dive a sump someday but I would like to sidemount first (details, details) and i have lots to learn before that happens.

man, yall'r right. sump diving is exactly like crawling in mud for 12 hours dragging a couple of bags of bricks any way you can. it's absolutely miserable. no C-card will ever be needed.

[Dave]

Jason.
Now that your headed off 300 miles in the wrong direction, please allow me to explain the reason for the original post. :P

I am in the process of converting my U.S. issued cave certs to Australian recognized certs (GUE NACD and CDS are not).
In the process I came across some information that stated certain caves in Oz required TDI sump diver certification. The course has apparently been taught there for many years. These caves are not sumps.
In order to ensure that I can get access, I was hoping to speak to someone who had information about the course ie: Is it REALLY a sump course, whats the criteria, experience required etc etc. Provided I met the criteria, I was considering doing the course, just to get me access.

It is not taught in the USA, as I have since found out. No plans are in place for it to be taught as far as I know. I found another option, and Im investigating that as well.

The GOOD news is, that during all this discussion, and talking to several people, I started to think "why dont I get involved in sump diving with TAG?" Im in Georgia, I know people involved, I like dry caving, Id like to expand on my skill set.

Anyhoo, thats the reason for the post, I wasnt looking to collect a card and become an instant sump diver.

Dave

[rchrds]

Jason.
The GOOD news is, that during all this discussion, and talking to several people, I started to think "why dont I get involved in sump diving with TAG?" Im in Georgia, I know people involved, I like dry caving, Id like to expand on my skill set.

Anyhoo, thats the reason for the post, I wasnt looking to collect a card and become an instant sump diver.

Dave

Dave- nothing personal at all- you just got sucked into another battle that may or may not really be an issue.

Understand your problem with the Aussie caves- I've heard horror stories about the politics over there as far as cave diving- but perhaps it is like here, we just hear the things that get all blown out of proportion.. :)

If you're not busy on Saturday there is quite a show going on at Fern cave with the resurvey- come on up and help- you can dry cave or you can help survey the sump area down below with C and I. At least you can get involved!

[bigdave]

Damn- I sound like Irvine. Sorry for that.

Yikes! 8)

BD

[Dave]

Dave- nothing personal at all- you just got sucked into another battle that may or may not really be an issue.

No worries, just clarifying my position.
Im damned glad I got training here, the Oz politics are waaay out of control.

Saturday sounds like a real good idea, a great introduction.
Please PM me some details!
Many thanks for the offer.

Dave

[rchrds]

Dave- nothing personal at all- you just got sucked into another battle that may or may not really be an issue.

No worries, just clarifying my position.
Im damned glad I got training here, the Oz politics are waaay out of control.

Saturday sounds like a real good idea, a great introduction.
Please PM me some details!
Many thanks for the offer.

Dave

PM sent- hope to see you on Saturday!

[mwenner]

Dave,

There's better people up here (Marbry) to speak on the behalf of TAG, but we'd love to get you on one of our trips. 3 to 4 years ago, I was invited on my first sump support effort, and met Marbry, Forrest, Cindy, TJ, Brian W, and about 15 other really great souls in one day. I've had nothing but tons of support from the forementioned, and ultimate experience, that can't be taught in a classroom. You can see by the posts how everyone came to rally, and was willing to get you the information you needed. You've come to the right place, I'll tell you that.

Come on.....

Mark

[Cindy]

things like the importance of tank bags- and how not to pack too much sh^t. (Cindy :)

Hey Jason, women always pack too much, don't you know anything yet! :P
I have bags for my tanks but didn't bring my tanks, I really think you mixed my stuff up with Guys. The idea about sharing drysuits is a great one! I had heard the Brits talk about it but hadn't thought to try. I learn everyday. Did you get my gift? Cindy :twisted:

[Dave]

You can see by the posts how everyone came to rally, and was willing to get you the information you needed. You've come to the right place, I'll tell you that.

Thats one thing that is for certain, the response has been amazing. John (JDZ) has given me all the information I needed for the cert issues, and Jason has me all fired up about dry/sump diving in the TAG area.

Thanks to everyone who responded, and gave advice, like you said, I asked in the right place.

See you all soon

Dave

[rchrds]

Did you get my gift? Cindy :twisted:

Oh- man, I am sorry- I totally forgot! Yes, I got it- and thanks- it has already been used! (by me that is.) I'm crappy about that sort of thing- I owe you one. :oops:

J

P.S. Dave- let me know as soon as you can if you are in for this weekend.

J

[Duncan Price]

The idea about sharing drysuits is a great one! I had heard the Brits talk about it but hadn't thought to try.

Wetsuits too on occasion. It can be very interesting to be beyond a sump with no means of getting back until your buddy returns from the next one with the gear you need. ;-)

[normblitch]

hey everyone. Cindy, I'm the Dave from Climax. different dave. I mostly lurk. I'll dive a sump someday but I would like to sidemount first (details, details) and i have lots to learn before that happens.


Dave,

You may be a lurker, bit IMHO you have a clear sight on what I consider to be a growing problem in the Community...to wit, rushing to higher certs before reaching a true COMFORT ZONE (NOT just passing minimums) in the cert they have just acquirred...

Take your time, and get muscle-memory and Zen!

Norm

[Dave Lizdas]

I hope so Norm, thanks. that's some real wisdom there.

yeah man, we're swimmin' under rocks, its not like it cures brain cancer or brings peace to the mideast. why rush?

[Webmaster]

Do some above water caving (I hate the term 'dry caving' since it seems most of the caves I do are anything but), just get used to caving in the areas you want to do sumps before the addition of dragging dive gear and planning for that. Caving presents it's own set of challenges. Get used to diving sidemount, it's just a practical matter of being able to haul tanks individually and fit through smaller spots.

Dive some colder low vis conditions in open water, around here it's about 56 deg. F and can be 2-4' vis, and that's good compared to some places.

If you're not run off after that come on some trips and help haul some gear to see what it's all about. Forrest and others are good about sharing what they know if you're really interested.

Marbry

[Cindy]

Hey Marbry, How was the convention? Cindy :D