Have you ever lost the line? And if so how many minutes did it take to find it?

[tomhauburn]

Just wondering if you have ever lost the line and if so how long it took to find it?

[FW]

You don't have enough choices. I have been off line several times in the past 43 years of cave diving. Sometimes it only took a minute to find it, the worst was over ten, but I didn't quit diving :roll:

This is a report about the worst one: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/5518-Lost-line

I got off line in the Dominican Republic last year, in very clear water, then bubbles from my buddy in front of me caused a massive percolation (landslide) in front of me. I didn't want to go into that mess without a line, so I doubled back and found it in a couple minutes. By then he missed me, and came back through the silt shower to look for me.

[Kelly Jessop]

You don't have enough choices. I have been off line several times in the past 43 years of cave diving. Sometimes it only took a minute to find it, the worst was over ten, but I didn't quit diving :roll:

This is a report about the worst one: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/5518-Lost-line

I got off line in the Dominican Republic last year, in very clear water, then bubbles from my buddy in front of me caused a massive percolation (landslide) in front of me. I didn't want to go into that mess without a line, so I doubled back and found it in a couple minutes. By then he missed me, and came back through the silt shower to look for me.

plus,the people who were lost over 10 minutes and quit diving probably aren't on this forum. When the adrenalin starts pumping time sure can get skewed.

[BabyDuck]

yeah, not the best-structured poll.

i've lost the line several times for less than 30 sec - like it was high and on the right and went up into a fissure and i missed that for a kick and went 'duh' and went up to follow it. or i'm busy navigating something like the half-hitch or not my fault and take a sec to get reoriented and see just where that line went since it was here a minute ago. but i don't remember ever losing it for longer than that.

[Jay]

It happens. Just remember your training. I have had to tie off to my scooter and go looking for the damn thing in a silt out.
You use what ever tools/knowledge you have available.

[RN]

Yes, a few times. The worse one was when it popped out of my hand in zero visibility. I knew it was still under me and, even without it, I was not going to get lost since there was limestone touching me on all sides, but it was still a little disconcerting. It was also the first time.

[Jaydubya]

I've never lost the line for more than a few seconds but I've only made 32 dives past the cavern zone.


(Now I've lost the anchor line more times than I want to admit but have always been able to find it before I was out of time except that one time when the anchor was off in a debris field with about 15 ft vis- I surfaced 20 ft in front of the dive boat)

[LiteHedded]

i've lost it a few times in siltouts. never for very long.

[Squirrel Girl]

Yes, a few times. The worse one was when it popped out of my hand in zero visibility. I knew it was still under me and, even without it, I was not going to get lost since there was limestone touching me on all sides, but it was still a little disconcerting. It was also the first time.

That's the thing that worries me more, losing the line when there ISN'T limestone touching me on all sides, but bigger passage where you can go around groping for way too long. Though, most of the time you wouldn't have zero vis such that you couldn't see anything in big passage. But that scenario has intimidated me such that I have slowly worked up to being happy in zero vis.

I could just keep practicing by following you in Dos Coronas! :-D :-)

[tomhauburn]

Forest what choices would you add? And I have to agree the last one will not be seen by anyone here. It might take me a bit to add them but will do so tonight when I get home.

[LiteHedded]

That's the thing that worries me more, losing the line when there ISN'T limestone touching me on all sides, but bigger passage where you can go around groping for way too long. Though, most of the time you wouldn't have zero vis such that you couldn't see anything in big passage. But that scenario has intimidated me such that I have slowly worked up to being happy in zero vis.

I could just keep practicing by following you in Dos Coronas! :-D :-)

in big passages it's normally not too bad. I'll typically anchor someone on a wall and go look

[LCF]

Diving in Mexico, getting lost is the biggest fear I have. Many lines run through the middle of extremely wide spaces with lots of decorations, where if you got off the line, it could be difficult to find it or even to quickly identify where the exit route is. Many jump lines start VERY close to the mainline, as well, so a "lost line" search might well land you on a line that isn't headed for the exit at all, something you wouldn't know until you got to the next arrow -- which can be a very long way. And flow is a poor help in MX. So I'm pretty careful to keep an eye on the line, and I don't go very far from it. (Which is a good idea there, anyway, as the ceilings are often covered in pipestraws which are damaged by bubbles, so we try to keep all that damage in one area by staying on the line.)

[FW]

Forest what choices would you add? And I have to agree the last one will not be seen by anyone here. It might take me a bit to add them but will do so tonight when I get home.

There are many ways to do it, but I would put ranges, like:
Under 1 minute
1 to 2 minutes
2-5 minutes
5-10 minutes
over 10 minutes
Have you lost the line more than one time?
Have you ever lost the line in zero viz?
Have you ever lost the line in big tunnel?

FWIW, the lower the viz, the closer I stay to the line, and if the viz gets below 2', I never let it go. If you lost it in zero viz, it would only be pure luck to find it again :(

[Taucher-Tom]

I´m glad you know that your last sentence isn´t true Forrest!

[FW]

I´m glad you know that your last sentence isn´t true Forrest!
A lost line search is very difficult, if not impossible in truly zero viz. You can't read a compass, and it is even hard to find something to tie the line on, to even start a search. So yes, it is luck if you do find it. By "zero visibility" I mean the kind where you can't see your light, until it touches the glass on your mask.

[Taucher-Tom]

As a photographer I´ve lost the line a couple of times, but I always had someone who was responsible to keep both under control, the line AND me!

Besides that I once lost the line in a sidemount cave. The first thing that happened was a regulator failure and believe it or not, before I could signal my buddy who was in front of me, my primary died. At that moment I already expected to not see the line after shutting down the valve and taking my backup light. Not sure if it was from bad trim during the emergency procedures or percolation from the blowing reg, but the viz was close to zero when I turned on the light. As I knew I couldn´t be far from the line and the cave was low profile I used one fin as centre and started a 360 turn until I finally reached the line again. Then I decided to make a left to get back to the entrance only to find that the passage narrowed down to nomount shortly after. When I started to push me backward again I noticed someone touching my fin. Scott had found me beeing on the wrong line. Not sure how long this took, but it seemed to be much longer.

[Jim Wyatt]

I lost the line in a cave about 35 years ago...never again.

Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me.

Forrest: We teach lost line all the time, everybody finds it. You are welcome to come sit/swim through a lost line exercise with me anytime.

[Taucher-Tom]

From my point of view the most important thing is to not panic and stay calm. You should have enough gas to be able to search for "a while"...

[Jim Wyatt]

From my point of view the most important thing is to not panic and stay calm. You should have enough gas to be able to search for "a while"...

Or ..wait until you are on a CCR to lose it, then you have hours to find it, not just minutes.

[Taucher-Tom]

yep, this should work, even if you are on a home depot sm rebreather... ;-)

[huxley]

Never lost the line, just had to look around to see where it is trying to hide. :clapper

I did find the lost line drill one of the hardest during training. While I managed to find it every time I did see people swimming parallel to the line till they were out of reel line and other problems that we ran into during the LL, I touched the line with my legs and did not notice it and swam right by, I managed to jam my safety reel and had to abandon it and used one of my backup backup finger spools. Lost line is taught blinded out which I don't see any different to do it in a silt out, but I always thought that I was very lucky to find the line and being in areas of a cave systems and seen some sections I'm sure you need a lot of luck to find it there.

[Jaydubya]

I'm not an instructor, but I thought that finding the line in zero vis was a requirement for completing full cave.

For one of my lost line searches I was twisted and turned and moved around a bunch and was placed on what (by feel) seemed like a sand slide. It took a while just to find something to tie into. It was suprisingly easy to tie in the line without sight. I then proceeded to search. I (evidently) headed off down the passage, counting the knots in my safety line as I went. Too many. The passage was not this wide. So I wound the spool back in and proceeded in another direction. I came across a line. Good. I was relieved. But it didn't feel right. I was trying to find the gold line and this obviously was some other line, so I kept searching until I found the right line. Absolutely zero viz and yes there was some luck involved but I have little doubt that given enough time that I could find the line in most circumstances.

[sandy]

That's the thing that worries me more, losing the line when there ISN'T limestone touching me on all sides, but bigger passage where you can go around groping for way too long. Though, most of the time you wouldn't have zero vis such that you couldn't see anything in big passage. But that scenario has intimidated me such that I have slowly worked up to being happy in zero vis.

I could just keep practicing by following you in Dos Coronas! :-D :-)

Tell me more about this thing you call groping:)

I have lost it for 10 seconds or less when I turned to look at something but it has always been in clear water. Like Rob, it popped out of my hand once in zero viz but I found it in 2 seconds or so.

[Dark Eternal]

One thing to keep in mind, lost line drills are done in "training areas" most of the time. This is an area that is probably ideal for this - lots of tie off etc... I can think of lots of areas where it would be MUCH harder than where I did all of my lost line drills.

[DA Aquamaster]

A lost line search is very difficult, if not impossible in truly zero viz. You can't read a compass, and it is even hard to find something to tie the line on, to even start a search. So yes, it is luck if you do find it. By "zero visibility" I mean the kind where you can't see your light, until it touches the glass on your mask.I hate to disagree with you but to some extent I do. For the most part I agree it can be very difficult. However a couple thousand hours working underwater in truly zero viz attunes you to spatial awareness and very subtle cues regarding orientation, inner ear perceptions, light flow/current, depth and buoyancy changes, bottom composition and alignment, etc that make orienting and staying directionally oriented in a lights out/total silt out a little easier. I don't think it's something that can be taught however.

-----

I have never seen the advantage of looking too long or hard for a suitable rock to tie off on - just drop a suitably heavy backup light, reel, etc and avoid getting more lost or disoriented looking for a tie off. The goal is to get back on the line, not find a great tie off.

------

In classes I've always asked before hand if they want me to do the "drill" or just go straight for the line once I establish a tie off. Some instructors want the drill, and I assume look for proper orientation, procedure, etc. Others say go for the line if you think you know where it is - and those evolutions don't take me very long.

-----

Like Lynn Mexico got my attention as the huge rooms, extensive decoration, complex passages and combination of both long jumps in some areas and snap and reach gaps in others, combined in some places with haloclines, creates the potential to find the *wrong* line and not realize it until the viz improves and you note the cave does not look like it should. That scares me more than zero viz in the average N FL cave.

[JamesK]

I have lost it diving in Mexico. I wrote about it in another thread. We got in to a zero vis situation and we were all on the line. I was in the 2nd spot. The third diver shot past me and pushed me in to the ceiling. Everyone else made it out before the silt got to it's worst. The 4th diver had the jump reel. So I had no line to follow and could not see it if I did. Luckily I was able to find the main line and guess the right way out.

[huxley]

I turned a dive at kitty's a few weeks ago. We went in a small passage barely big enough for BM, clear water but got silty we came to T with several lines and separated to explore each direction on our own due to conditions and meet back in 10-15 min. I went into a small and very very silty passage and barely any flow. I went in about 100'-200' and it quickly turned to 0 viz around me, before it got too silty I noticed a couple feet in front of me that the line is being berried in the fine silt, and covered about a foot for at least 30'. I stopped took note of the cave and the line and I opted it's not worth to dig out the fatigue line and risk a line break so I decided to turn. At this point I was in a zero viz and I had sweep a couple times to my left to get hold to the line which was 1-2 feet to my left and I was aware of its location, but it sure felt good to have the line in my hands. I went back to the T and since I still had time I took another lead running into my buddy who came around a small circuit and was surprised to face me there, we went back to main line and ran a couple several 100' up streams.

[skip]

in a horizontal restriction my leg cramped and it sent me off the line, silted out everything. as I worked out the cramp I went up into a vertical crack and got wedged in pretty tight. i managed to work one hand to the rear dump and pull it and then descended nicely into a big silt cloud. back on the bottom I tied off the safety reel and swam into the densest part of the silt figuring that's where I'd come from. Sure enough the line showed up with my buddy right there flashing his light back and forth. Never grinned so big in my life.

skip

[RN]

I lost the line in a cave about 35 years ago...never again.

Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me.

Forrest: We teach lost line all the time, everybody finds it. You are welcome to come sit/swim through a lost line exercise with me anytime.

I teach it just like we discussed in my IE and I still have students who don't find it. I do cut the drill after about 10 minutes or so.


Or ..wait until you are on a CCR to lose it, then you have hours to find it, not just minutes.

As I tell my students, "You have the rest of your life to find the line."



I'm not an instructor, but I thought that finding the line in zero vis was a requirement for completing full cave.

It's nice to have happen, but not a requirement for any of the agencies I teach through. Standards state the student must conduct the drill but there's nothing about finding it - NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, and TDI. I prefer they don't find it. It sends a better message about not losing the line.

[ffdiver5597]

During my intro training we did the drill and I swam right under the line (or more likely my instructor gingerly lifted it above me as I swam towards it) when it snapped on my leg, I tied into it, I chose my direction which I was certain was the way out, only to find out that I was completely wrong. That scared me more than searching for the line. Even though I would have eventually figured out the right way and I had more than enough gas to do so, just seeing how easy it was to become disoriented in the cave kinda spooked me.

[MORGAN]

I've never lost the line to the extent of having to tie in a safety reel and do a lost line search, but I have lost it momentarily a few times.

Swimming along, glance at where the line ought to be, and it's not there. Stop swimming, think a moment about where I am and where the line should be, and look for it. On each of these occasions the line has reappeared promptly.

[JerseyJersey]

In doing a lost line drill during training, I made my way until I found line. As I was tieing into it I kept feeling it and the feel definately wasnt right. I had bounced around in a circle and came onto my own line. Definately left an inmpression.

[Greenwood_60]

Forrest: We teach lost line all the time, everybody finds it. You are welcome to come sit/swim through a lost line exercise with me anytime.

If a student does a crap job searching, but happens to find it, is that a pass? If a student does a proper methodical search, but was unlucky enough to miss the line, is that a fail? It doesn't seem to me that actually finding the line is of any benefit in training. I want to see an instructor prepare a student for a lost line search, then once the mask is off/blacked out, pull the line :)

[Jaydubya]

My instructor told me he made a guy come back to HS multiple times because he was unable to find the lost line even though all the other skills were good. He told me that for Intro you do not have to actually find the line but for that for full cave you do. The instructor was teaching with NACD at that time. I don't know if it was an NACD requirement or the instructor's personal requirement.

[huxley]

If you search and did not find the line you died, if you did a bad job looking for it and made a mess but found it at least you would have survived. We did lost line for apprentice in the cavern area of P3, blacked out mask, turning around and lost navigation totally. Anyhow I searched couple things happened and I keept searching, finally found a line, tied to it and was happy, Once at the line I noticed that this was not our primary line, while we were in the cave another team laid a second primary which was on the floor, ours was on the ceiling, I now know why. Anyhow my instructor let me pass since it would have brought me out of the cave. Now it was my buddies turn, took him a while but he managed to find the same line that I found. How good are the chances?
The main passage is fairly big at this point, a little bigger room and a line that takes a turn and I, sure it be be pure luck to find it. Having the line tied to the ceiling was a lesson for me, for some reason you expect it to be low when you sweep for it.

[Jim Wyatt]

I wrote an article about this subject for Underwater Speleology magazine last year. Take a look at: http://www.cavecountrydiving.com/dive-articles/2011/12/22/relocating-a-lost-guideline-a-reprint-from-underwater-speleo.html

[LCF]

My Cave 1 instructor told us that, if you remain calm and methodical (and assuming the line is THERE), you will always find the line. Whether you will find it with enough gas to get out or not is another question . . . I think it took me 12 minutes, but I found it.

Another thing he emphasized and emphasized was referencing the cave. There was a quadruple fatality in Mexico a few years back, not due to losing the line or zero viz, but if I remember correctly, due to turning the wrong way at an intersection. I have dived the cave they came in on, and what they got onto, and it was a good cautionary tale on paying attention to things OTHER than the line. Character of passage, size, depth, bottom material, size and type of line -- and in Florida, of course, you sometimes have flow to help as well.

The absolute scariest story I've read was about someone who was in a cave when somebody else decided to change the line routing, and took out the line he had come in on. This was in one of those big, wide passages with lots of decorations. Luckily, the diver knew the cave well enough to have a good idea where another line was, and he found it and got out. It's one thing to lose the line in a short siltout, and another thing altogether when hundreds of feet of it are just simply gone.

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm not sure what Forrest was entirely getting at. It seems to me he told me (us?) that Sheck and someone else formulated the idea of how to do the search with a safety reel, and that he, FW, actually was the first to attempt, and succeeded at that technique, encircling the lost line.

I agree that it may not be as easy to do in a real life situation as in a drill.

I am always looking for a buddy to practice drills. I did a lost line drill in the big area in front of the Peanut Tunnel and my buddies gave up on me and had me open my eyes and give up. I didn't feel it as my leg/fin touched the line and kept trying away.


Sandy, you know all about groping. I'll grope you (or anyone else) who is blocking MY exit from a cave with THEIR big butt!!!! :orcass

[RN]

My instructor told me he made a guy come back to HS multiple times because he was unable to find the lost line even though all the other skills were good. He told me that for Intro you do not have to actually find the line but for that for full cave you do. The instructor was teaching with NACD at that time. I don't know if it was an NACD requirement or the instructor's personal requirement.

It is not an NACD requirement.

[T. Bix]

I wrote an article about this subject for Underwater Speleology magazine last year. Take a look at: http://www.cavecountrydiving.com/dive-articles/2011/12/22/relocating-a-lost-guideline-a-reprint-from-underwater-speleo.html

Thank You Jim! What other insight do you have to offer to help prepare an Intro diver arriving for upcoming training real, real soon? :)

See ya in a couple weeks!

[Jay]

Two of the most infamous lost line incidents are polar opposites in the reaction and composure of the divers.

A diver lost the line entering thunderhole and ended up in a low wide room, but shallow. She patiently waited HOURS for someone to come get her.

The dual fatility at EN years back involved two divers losing the line. One found it eventually and was headed in the right direction when he ran OOA, the other was tangled in his own line and several other old lines. There were other contributing factors, but composure was certainly one.

The depth and amount of gas you have left to search can't be overstated.

[huxley]

I like the idea of not using a line arrow at this point which might lead to confusion and just mark the side you think the exit is with cookie or as you describe the clip. But don't you clip back to the jump line with the clip? I've seen people clipping it to the main line but also seen this come loose which could end up in a mess especially in low viz.

[Jim Wyatt]

The clip should indicate exit direction in all cases, IMO. In this lost line scenario it represents the exit direction that the lost diver *thinks* is the exit direction. If that diver discovers they have travelled the wrong way - then change the clip to the other side of the reel.
Take a look at the image found at: http://www.cavecountrydiving.com/photos/

The clip is indicating the direction the diver *thinks* is the exit direction. No need to take time searching for arrows or cookies, as always---YMMV

[Wizard]

I remember my first lost line drill. Larry told me to close my eyes and find the line and dropped me off into the middle of nowhere. I had wondered about swimming along side the line and never finding it so I had plan. After the tie off I searched till I found the wall, then turning 180 degrees I opened my legs very wide and backed up till my fins both touched the wall and took off foward. Swam right to it. He ask me why I did that and I told him if my fins were 4 feet apart and both against the wall my chances for being squared up at 90 degrees were almost 100 percent, unless I was in a notch of some sort.
He scratched his head, chuckled and passed me.
On the exit at Ginnie one day I saw some poor lady doing a lost line drill at the largest part of the gallery. She was on the floor and the line was way above her on the wall almost to the Lips. Remembered thinking "hope you brought lunch". I wonder if she found it.

[MORGAN]

A useful aspect of good "line awareness" is that if you lose the line, you ought to have a pretty good idea of where it is in relation to you; right or left, floor, ceiling, or wall. And you probably haven't swam very far before noticing that you've lost it. So you have a good idea of where to look; you're not starting from scratch.

On the other hand, doing a lights out lost line drill where the instructor turns you around and flips you over before you start - it could be anywhere! I like the squaring off the wall idea. Just like carpentry - it helps to start off with something plumb, level, or square.

[Wizard]

Here's the two stories that give me the heebie geebies.


http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/5534-Broken-line

[Wizard]

And the other.

http://http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/5522-Lost-Diver

[huxley]

Jim, I did understand how that works and that the clip should point towards exit. Looking at the picture the reel gets wrapped around the main line twice and than clipped to the mainline. Now if you unwrap the reel which could happen (more likely in higher flow systems) you are connected by the bolt snap only. This will result in a loose line and all relies on the bolt snap now.
I wrap my reel around the main line twice and clip it back onto my line which gets wrapped twice in the bolt snap. I was under the assumption that is is standard practice since its pretty much impossible to unwrap and rely on the bolt snap connection only. Sure everyone lost something before that was just secured with a boltsnap only.
Am I missing something on your technique which prevents it from unwrapping?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRnApuO8i9o

[Jim Wyatt]

Am I missing something on your technique which prevents it from unwrapping?



I have never seen one unwrap.:smt102

[DA Aquamaster]

Jim, I did understand how that works and that the clip should point towards exit. Looking at the picture the reel gets wrapped around the main line twice and than clipped to the mainline. Now if you unwrap the reel which could happen (more likely in higher flow systems) you are connected by the bolt snap only. This will result in a loose line and all relies on the bolt snap now.
I wrap my reel around the main line twice and clip it back onto my line which gets wrapped twice in the bolt snap. I was under the assumption that is is standard practice since its pretty much impossible to unwrap and rely on the bolt snap connection only. Sure everyone lost something before that was just secured with a boltsnap only.
Am I missing something on your technique which prevents it from unwrapping?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRnApuO8i9o

It's a good question. Jim's answer is interesting as well.

I asked my full cave instructor (Mike O'leary) the same question and got the same answer - it's an old school practice that isn't used anymore as it could become unwrapped leaving the jump line connected only by the bolt snap. And Mike is reasonably old school. I asked Mike because I used to do it that way but was told to clip back on the jump line by my intro instructor - some one who I tended to question for various reasons I won't go into. But the final score was 2-0 against the old practice.

And now Jim makes it 2-1, and he's on the short list of instructors I'd trust.

There seems to be a lack of consensus.

[huxley]

I was not trying to say Jim's way is wrong, I'm sure he has plenty of experience and if it never unwrapped that's good, just theoretically it appears to be able to unwrap. I've seen reels that came loose, or only clipped to mainline. Since I did not lay them i can't say what that person did or didn't. I'm sure you've seen students doing something wrong when they tie the reel to the mainline and it comes loose, so it might be another reason for the ones I've seen.
As for me, even if there is the slightest chance that it might unwrap and there is a better solution that will 100% prevent it, I will go with that one. That's why I asked if there is a step that I miss when clipping to the main line. I surely like the Not Using a arrow at this point and use the clip as navigational marker in your method. It made me think that the arrow could lead to confusion if it's pointing the wrong way. I might opt to use a cookie and stay with the clipping to the jump line for my personal protocol.

[DA Aquamaster]

Another thought is that the potential to unwrap from the line with a fairly large and heavy reel may be small, but how about the risk with a lighter delrin or plastic finger spools that people commonly use as a safety spool?

And while this discussion is limited to getting back on the line, is it a good idea for a diver to have a separate seldom used procedure to use for lost lines (when under stress) than the one he or she uses every day in normal diving?

Probably not.

[Greenwood_60]

I was taught that you always clip pointing out. Of course, that has always been back on to white line at this point. It seems more often than not, anyone other than Giselle or me running the reel clips in to gold.:smt102

[Kerry C.]

I don't see how the line can unwind and only be held by the clip. You don't just wrap it around the main line and clip it off. The line is wrapped around the main line then brought over or under itself before clipping. It'll catch on the line you just laid before it comes unwrapped.

[RN]

Iwas taught, and teach my students, to use the clip/double ender. I've yet to see a clip come off the line, however, I have had students forget to use the clip and deploy an arrow and every single time they were unable to get the arrow, in zero visibility, securely on the line. Every time it was either on the floor or hanging from one notch and not indicating direction.

[Jaydubya]

Iwas taught, and teach my students, to use the clip/double ender. I've yet to see a clip come off the line, however, I have had students forget to use the clip and deploy an arrow and every single time they were unable to get the arrow, in zero visibility, securely on the line. Every time it was either on the floor or hanging from one notch and not indicating direction.

Every single time? Sounds like they didn't have enough practice placing arrows. I was taught the arrow method (Johnny Richards) and had zero problems with it.

[huxley]

I don't see how the line can unwind and only be held by the clip. You don't just wrap it around the main line and clip it off. The line is wrapped around the main line then brought over or under itself before clipping. It'll catch on the line you just laid before it comes unwrapped.

Thans, I guess that was the missing step to prevent it from unwrapping and guess that that might have been the problem of the ones that I've seen come loose.

[RN]

Every single time? Sounds like they didn't have enough practice placing arrows. I was taught the arrow method (Johnny Richards) and had zero problems with it.

It's one thing to place an arrow with visibility and to place one without. None of those students had issues deploying a marker with visibility. And, because I teach the clip method, every single time isn't very often as most of my students don't try to deploy a marker.

[diveconjeff]

I had one diver show me his safety reel because I noticed an arrow on it. He was using the arrow in place of the ball at the end of the line on his safety reel. Not the way I was taught, but ...

[diveconjeff]

Forgot to mention, have to agree with some of the other posters, it's not the tight dusty passages where losing the line scares me, I tend to keep a pretty sharp eye on it there anyway. I want to know where it is, and I don't want to become a fish on a hook. Even more so if I am with someone else and they might feel the need to redistribute the silt a bit (as in coming out of sherwood recently for example :smt102 ).

Really big passage, where the line might want to go hide, seems to need a different style of attention, although no less important, as the line can often be more than an arm's length away and there is so much more to see.

I don't know if not being able to see the line counts as a lost line. I know when going BM, I would get a bit antsy when the line is up over my head on a low ceiling and I couldn't do an exorcist neck twist to see it. (Yes I know the teaching is not to go under a line, but sometimes circumstances may dictate otherwise)

[DA Aquamaster]

Jeff,

Marci and I have similar fears regarding large passage. For example if diving Manatee from friedmans on a low viz day or the larger sections of passage in Lafayette Blue on pretty much any day, we'll assign someone to be on the line to allow the other team member(s) the ability to range a bit farther from the line.

It's a lot easier to see a diver and their light on the line than it is just the line, it's easier to see the line itself when it's in the vicinity of a diver's light, and it's prudent to have someone following the line and ensuring there are no gaps, breaks, tees, or unexpected twists that could be missed by diver looking at the rest of a large passage, looking for side passages, leads, etc.

[diveconjeff]

Spot on ! (literally and figuratively)

[huxley]

once in a while I take two primaries with me when there is low viz, dark line ...... One follows the line the other one I use to look around, makes it easier to not loose the line out of sight and still be able to look around.

[tomhauburn]

Added a few options...also extended the time for those of you who missed the early date. Did not change anything folks had voted on.

[DogDiver]

Didn't actually loose the line, but swam over the jump on hill 400 just before you get to the bats. I knew in the first 30 feet I wasn't where I belonged as I was in the skid row loop. Turned around to find my team members waiting for me at the jump. Poor jump there. Only about 12 inch jump at a turn in the main line. Won't do that again.

[Reefnut]

Yes, a couple of times. The first time I was gawking at the beauty of my surroundings in Little River. I lost line awareness for only a moment. When I realized I didn't know where the line was I froze. Thank goodness my buddy was paying more attention than I was. The second time was in Mexico during my final cave course. The main line was a thin, white twisted braid running very close to a white bone-like floor. Again, I was so preoccupied gawking at the beautiful cave I took my eyes off the line for only a second and the darn thing up and disappeared. It was perfectly camouflaged against the white floor. I found it only by panning my light back and forth and looking for the line's shadow. After that, if I wanted to ooh and ahh at the cave I just let the back of my hand brush against line as I swam so I always knew exactly where it was. Both were valuable experiences and I've never lost the line since.

[bullfrog]

Once lost the line and a buddy. I remember thinking this is how people die in caves. one minute everything is ok and next it is not. didn't take long to find the line but taught us all a couple of lessons. see http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/5587-Errors-in-Madison-Blue

[mdax]

small safety spools were mentioned. I've never understood why some folks use a safety spool that couldn't reach from one side of a passage to the other. Places like manatee or large passages in ginnie necessitate a 150' safety spool imo.

[Ann]

We did the excersice in the course. For my feeling it took a really long time before I found the line, I totally went in the wrong direction, but it had only token a couple of minutes the instructor said.