Would you like cave diving as much if the caves were well lit?

[Red Hat Jef]

Diving this post-dema week in NFL has been a real experience - lots of divers in the popular caves. Turn a corner and find another set of cave divers with huge lights coming right at you. Had to find some side passages to get the "real cave" experience - dark and quiet (and not silty!)

This made me think - would cave diving be as good if the cave were well lit, so we wouldn't need lights at all?

[Dark Eternal]

I dive the caves to SEE what is there. More light equates to better sight seeing. I certainly don't mind the dark, it adds to the experience, but I also don't think that I would like it less if I could see things better. In fact, in trying out lights, I tend to feel the brighter the better - get to see more.

[MRTdiver]

This made me think - would cave diving be as good if the cave were well lit, so we wouldn't need lights at all?

So who wants to change the lyrics to The Cave Diver song (http://www.myspace.com/barefootskinny1)? :mad: That's my theme song. How would that sound with other lyrics?? :?


... get the "real cave" experience - dark and quiet Yes! :clapper

[Rich]

I like being in the dark, I'm "shadowing" people a lot of the time anyways.... sometimes I'll just follow divers/teams around for fun and they don't even know I'm there, which is always entertaining.... ;)
My exception to the rule is big cave, Indian, Eagle's Nest, Diepolder, etc then I always want more light! Each to their own though.... :D

Safe diving,

Rich

P.S. But it's always kinda fun to tell people that you're cave diving at night 'cause that's when they turn the lights off, "it's like creepy, ya know".....

[stairman]

I dont mind mine or my buddies light but am not enthused with big lights coming my way especially in my eyes.

[FW]

Those that voted "yes" should just stick with Vortex :roll:

[Kelly Jessop]

I dont mind mine or my buddies light but am not enthused with big lights coming my way especially in my eyes.
I agree,a lot of cave diving etiquette has taken a back seat,and diverting or shielding a light for another on-coming team is rarely,if ever done anymore. I prefer low power lights,my eyes adjust well,and the back scatter from light cannons really interferes with my periphery,so when someone is coming toward me with their death star pointed at me,there goes my night vision.

[Kelly Jessop]

Those that voted "yes" should just stick with Vortex :roll:

or Blue Grotto, or Bonne Terre

[MORGAN]

I like the dark - it's part of what makes a cave a cave. Tracy and I are diving with DR 10 watt HID's and have never felt the need for more. Too much light is just, well, too much!

[FW]

or Blue Grotto, or Bonne Terre
I wouldn't know, I have never been to a lighted underwater cave, including Vortex.

[OFG-1]

I guess it depends on the lighting. A strobe in the hill 400 tunnel might be interesting. A big disco ball in the Florida Room, that would be nice. Underwater speakers playing Coldplay, lava lamps in all sidemount tunnels, a Kodak Carousel slide projector showing pictures of the mountains, or coral reefs, something to enhance the scenery.

[DA Aquamaster]

+1 on the small light comment. Marci and I dive 10W and 12W LEDs and frankly we don't see the need for more light either. There are not that many cave passages with enough volume and visibility to really benefit from them and in the smaller, funner passages 10W is more than enough.

Personally, I think excessive light tends to degrade your ability to pick up your team mates' lights in your peripheral vision even when all of you are equally over lighted, especially in darker walled, less traveled tunnels, so I don't see big lights as a plus on most dives.

My dry caving experience is dated and comparatively limited, but I much preferred dry caving in a 'real' cave with my own lights to strolling through a lighted tourist cave.

[RN]

While I love my 21 watt I like the area around me lit up, not the entire cave. For those of you with small lights that think it's enough. I used a 10 watt for years before I went brighter. I always thought it was enough until the 21 watt. Now I can see so much more. I see things I never knew were there. I still have my 10 watts and still dive them in smaller caves, but I was wishing I had brought my 21 watt to Cozumel because one of those caves had some big rooms that could have used some more light.

All that being said, usually minimal light is enough. Half of a good number of my dives are done in conditions where any light doesn't make a difference anyway! ;)

[tecterri]

I've wondered when I'm in a really dark or very large tunnel what it would be like if suddenly someone switched on the lights :) I really like to "see" as much of the cave as I can, but I also enjoy shielding my light and enjoying the view with my buddy's light only.

[Diveski01]

"Cave diving" with lights = Bonne Terre Mines, MO

[Slüdge]

A lot of times when I'm scootering solo I'll point my light straight up at the ceiling. It's like riding a bicycle out in the country just before dusk.

[wingman]

Let there be light!!! The question is how much...while short periods of the absence of light are ok I like to use my eyes and that requires a level of light somewhere between a cyalume stick and 35w. Scootering the main passage at ginnie i like a ton of light, swimming double lines i dont need so much...seems like a selectable intensity would be good and a dim feature for approaching teams would be nice as well. Maybe the light manufacturers will listen. As in other activities lights on or off depends on mood.

[reiterman]

A lot of times when I'm scootering solo I'll point my light straight up at the ceiling. It's like riding a bicycle out in the country just before dusk.

+1 . Gives a whole new look to the cave.

[LCF]

I had to think about this for a while. Part of the fun of cave diving is "What's over there?" or "What's around the corner?". But as I thought back, I realized some of the most enjoyable dives I've done have been either where we had multiple teams following one another (so lots of lights) or when I got to follow the guy with the video lights. You see so much more, and I also think my level of wariness drops a bit, when I am sure I can see.

A case in point: I had always disliked Mayan Blue A Tunnel. It's dark cave and frequently somewhat hazy, and I always thought it was very dull. Then I dove it with a "team of four" (two teams of two, diving together), and one diver had video lights. All of a sudden, I could see that the cave has huge rooms FULL of elaborate decorations, and my opinion of the cave changed completely.

So, yeah, I think more light is better.

[MORGAN]

A lot of times when I'm scootering solo I'll point my light straight up at the ceiling. It's like riding a bicycle out in the country just before dusk.

I like to swim along with my light pointed at the ceiling a little ahead of me, not quite straight up. I like the twilight effect, and if there are air pockets they'll reflect moving patterns of light back down in front of me.

[tsimon]

I like to swim along with my light pointed at the ceiling a little ahead of me, not quite straight up. I like the twilight effect, and if there are air pockets they'll reflect moving patterns of light back down in front of me.

Don't forget the shadow animal shapes!

I prefer the not alot of light it makes the cave, cave like.

[rchrds]

Vortex has lights? Interesting. I think one of the things we miss out on cave diving (or maybe it's just me cause nobody like my caves) (or maybe its just me) is the large groups of people wandering around the big rooms. There is nothing quite like being in a huge dry cave room with one part of your group climbing down the breakdown 1/4 mile away on the other side while the middle party is half way down, and you are on the top watching the whole thing- It's cool to see all the little lights, and get a feel for how large the room really is. We have some of that in our underwater caves, but because of light loss, and the fact that there really aren't that many REALLY large rooms in most of the touristy caves. Those that have had the chance to see the cube room, or some of the wakulla passage and stuff like that will probably lean on the side of the more light is better- though, I'm not sure that is really what the OP was asking... I like caves for the exploration- but I would still like caves if I could explore them fully lit.

[Xenia]

I've wondered when I'm in a really dark or very large tunnel what it would be like if suddenly someone switched on the lights :) I really like to "see" as much of the cave as I can, but I also enjoy shielding my light and enjoying the view with my buddy's light only.
+1
I love the darkness that's why I shield my light. However, when I don't cover it I love to see more cave and the more the light the better. I can't forget how much I re-fell in love with Manatee when Bobby modified my light. The dark rock would absorb it beautifully but I would see more rock and that was amazing.

And then there's video and photography! How amazing is that Diepolder picture by Wes Skiles... How much light was needed to get such a picture in such an immense system, I cannot even imagine!

[amphipod06]

"Would you like cave diving as much if the caves were well lit?"

seriously?

Dive safe,

Celia

[DA Aquamaster]

And then there's video and photography! How amazing is that Diepolder picture by Wes Skiles... How much light was needed to get such a picture in such an immense system, I cannot even imagine!From what I've heard, that shot was made with very large slaved strobes. Providing that much light for the whole dive would require some serious battery power.

[Bobby]

Back when Halogen was the top light for diving we had the watt wars with limited burn times. I was using 35w and it seemed to be plenty of light and a good balance of battery size to burn time. Dive planning came down to how man back ups would be carried to cover the entire dive. Back up lights were not very dependable and I can recall a number of exits with no light.

Then came the 10w HID. I like many others complained that the light was "too bright", "too white", etc. Eventually I converted and found how much more of the cave I could see with the HID. Then came the 21w and the same thing was said about it; too bright, too much light, yada yada yada. Then the 35w & 50w lights came along. I stayed with the 10w HID because of the size of the light head and battery can.

Now there are LED's. With the same 10w HID head I have more light than a 35w HID with the dependability of LED. Each time I up the light output I think it is too much light until I get the beam angle to match it. With more than 2600 lumen of output I still think that is "the most light I would want" but will undoubtedly be happy with more light the next time I upgrade, which won't be too long with how quickly LED technology improves.

Check out this video http://vimeo.com/31164150, tell me where there is too much light. ;)

[RN]

From what I've heard, that shot was made with very large slaved strobes. Providing that much light for the whole dive would require some serious battery power.

Another tidbit of information. I heard the divers in that shot are all Wes. He set up the camera and left the shutter open while moving to each position in the dark and turning on the strobe he was holding when he got there. I've played around with that on land and it works quite well.

[DA Aquamaster]

Another tidbit of information. I heard the divers in that shot are all Wes. He set up the camera and left the shutter open while moving to each position in the dark and turning on the strobe he was holding when he got there. I've played around with that on land and it works quite well.Now that's pretty cool....

I have done something vaugely similar taking astonomical photos with my 6" refractor "stacking" several medium length exposures on one digital image to avoid the electronic noise that occurs in a single long digital exposure.

[Greenwood_60]

From what I've heard, that shot was made with very large slaved strobes. Providing that much light for the whole dive would require some serious battery power.

That strobe was built for Nat Geo to do a titanic shoot. I guess those they were scared a strobe failure would kill them, so they didn't take it. Wes asked to borrow it, and made one hell of a photo.

[amphipod06]

The lights were referred to as "the great balls of fire"(GBF's) and the Russian (not sure of nationality) crew declined to use them because it scared them. An accidental flash directly in the eyes or a short circuit of 60,000 volts from flooding can potentially cause devastating results. Wes saw a huge opportunity and borrowed them. The Diepolder image took more than one dive to produce and the fact that it was done on actual film media makes it even more impressive....

Dive safe,

Celia

[Garyd]

I like to swim along with my light pointed at the ceiling a little ahead of me, not quite straight up. I like the twilight effect, and if there are air pockets they'll reflect moving patterns of light back down in front of me.

Ditto

In addition; I think the darkness actually makes it easier to keep track of team members. I'd much rather send and receive light signals than constantly turn around or look back between my feet because its so bright that light signals become useless.

[Tegg]

Sounds like some people need brighter lights or dive smaller cave...

[giles45shop]

Seems like we are looking at this from several perspectives. Personally, I would be happy if the caves were lit up, as I like to look at the rocks and formations and it would be really cool to see more of them other than the portion that my HID lights up. No telling what you miss in the dark. I'm just looking at it from the simplistic perspective of "do I want to see more or less", disregarding any secondary questions about light signals and logistics of team diving.

For those of you who like the darkness, why would you need to be in a cave? I get the idea that floating weightless in the dark is neat and I like that; however, couldn't you just float around in a sealed box (sensory deprivation chamber) and accomplish the same thing?

Same thing with small silty caves. Gven the choice, I would much rather be able to see where I was going rather than just be able to feel where I was going. I get the idea that it's a challenge, and people like challenges, but consider this: If you took a poll of blind people to ask them if they wanted their sight back, how many do you think would pick "I'd rather stay blind"??

John

[FW]

...This made me think - would cave diving be as good if the cave were well lit, so we wouldn't need lights at all?
I think a lot of you are missing the point here. He isn't against lights, as long as they are his lights. What he is asking is do we want the cave lighted by a lot of other divers, or even artificial lights.

[aquadog196]

When filming...More Light.
For cave intimacy...Less Light.

[speleocrone]

I seem to be interpreting this question differently to most here. I thought he was asking if we wanted the caves artificially lit, as per tourist caves, not whether people carry bigger lights themselves. So, is it a "wild" feel you want when diving or a self guided tour experience feel?

Personally, I'm happy for either, on some occasions, but the majority of my diving I want with as little site interference as possible.

[DA Aquamaster]

I seem to be interpreting this question differently to most here. I thought he was asking if we wanted the caves artificially lit, as per tourist caves, not whether people carry bigger lights themselves. So, is it a "wild" feel you want when diving or a self guided tour experience feel?

Personally, I'm happy for either, on some occasions, but the majority of my diving I want with as little site interference as possible.It's the way I interpreted it, and I thought it was pretty clear. However,we're now 30 plus posts into the thread and perhaps some people just don't read the original post first and/or get misled by someone who mis interpreted and responded to the wrong question.

[LCF]

I wouldn't want a string of permanent lights, I don't think; it would take away some of the sense of adventure. But I didn't get that from the original post.

[DA Aquamaster]

I wouldn't want a string of permanent lights, I don't think; it would take away some of the sense of adventure. But I didn't get that from the original post.

But just think of it! The permanent lights could be run along stainless steel cable/gold line with safety bottles every 100'!!

At least until Phase II when we line all the caves with acrylic tubes so that we could just walk through them like the aquarium in the Mall of America rather than having to swim. :D

[diveconjeff]

The tubes could have some other benefits as well. Cave trash could not be strewn about willy nilly, no more initials carved in the actual cave surface (the acrylic maybe),and the lighted EXIT signs would eliminate the need for laying lines.

[DA Aquamaster]

The tubes could have some other benefits as well. Cave trash could not be strewn about willy nilly, no more initials carved in the actual cave surface (the acrylic maybe),and the lighted EXIT signs would eliminate the need for laying lines.

We could provide grease pencils and then the janitor could just wipe off the graffiti once a week.

[speleocrone]

So now for a difficult question. Should the string of fixed lights be coloured (like in Chinese tourist caves)?

And the biggy: WHAT colours should they be?

[OFG-1]

So now for a difficult question. Should the string of fixed lights be coloured (like in Chinese tourist caves)?

And the biggy: WHAT colours should they be?

Naturally, there should be visible red lights as you are going into the cave, and visible green lights on your way out. The red lights should be on the left side of the cave going in, so the boating rule "red, right, returning" would work. The red lights should be triangular in shape, the green ones rectangular, for the color blind.

[speleocrone]

But of course! Red to port, green to starboard, with correct navigational shapes. HOW could I not have realised! And I lived on a yacht for 4 years once, shame on me.

Of course, that's for a resurgence. It would have to be reversed if it was an inflow cave :-).

[DA Aquamaster]

That system might require some training and certification. We may have to back I up with colored lines painted on the floor like they do in large hospitals.

[phillip1]

I like the mystery of what may lie ahead and not seeing farther than say a 12W LED keeps that mystery alive and keeps me coming back for more, if I could see the whole cave then it would kill part of the mystery and atmosphere..

[cavedivingwoman]

Keep it dark! If you want light flooding, detour to open water.

[JamesK]

No artificial lighting please. Just give me my 10W HID. I like the way the shadows dance around as I move my light.

[johnny boy]

We dive cold water flooded mines quite a bit here in the UK. I like to shield my light and enjoy the peace a quiet of the dark.

[seaghost]

no! dark is why I go there!

[tflaris]

Job security for underwater electricians.


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