Questions about Cavern

[Aftertwoam]

I've been a lurker on this site for a while now, and finally have a reason to post! I'm going to be in Playa del Carmen for a week at the end of this year, and am trying to arrange a cavern course while I'm down there. I've looked through past posts about this stuff pretty extensively, but after a while the stuff has started to blur in my head, so I'm posting some questions here.

1. Since I would love to be full cave certified eventually, it seems like I shouldn't take PADI cavern. I've emailed all the dive shops I could find down there, and a few of them offer IANTD, would this be accepted by most Intro to Cave instructors? I haven't asked about NACD/NAUI but I'm thinking it would be rare.

2. Only one instructor has told me I could choose to do cavern w/double tanks, everyone else does it w/singles. Does it matter significantly?

3. The instructor I mentioned above is Nicolas Casella - anyone know of him/had experiences w/him?

4. Does it matter if the instructor is certified full cave instructor, vs only intro to cave instructor? Obviously I'm not doing either of those, just wanted to know if it really makes a difference.

5. Any recs for cavern instructors in Playa del Carmen? The ones I found on this site seem to be more Cancun/Tulum/Cozumel. I tried to contact German Yanez anyway, since I thought I may have read in some thread he might be open to coming to the mainland, but got no response. Did get a response from Mexico Blue Dream, where Etienne would be the instructor. I read about him somewhere in this forum too, any info there?

6. Obviously I don't want to skimp for the sake of skimping, but there is such a huge difference in prices among the people I've contacted that it's confusing me. Is there an 'average' of what a cavern course down there should cost?

Thanks in advance for anyone who might respond - like I said, this is my first time posting so I'm actually kinda nervous!

[Superlyte27]

Wow, lots of questions...

1. IANTD is fine. That cavern cert will transfer to any agency if you decide you like someone else who isn't IANTD when it's time to pursue Intro
2. Cavern with double tanks is fine provided you don't suck at doubles tanks. I have several students who come with doubles for their first time, then fail cavern class.
3 I know nothing. :)
4. Not if he's a good instructor.
5. I know nothing. :) They don't let me out of the country much.
6. See answer #5.

I hope this helps. Good luck in your class. I hope it fuels an unquenchable thirst.

[RN]

1. IANTD is fine. IANTD has a decent internship program in place for its instructors. With PADI all it takes is full cave and proof of 20 dives after training. That's why many cave instructors will not accept PADI cavern as a pre-requisite.

2. If you plan on continuing beyond cavern and have experience in doubles, then take the course in doubles. This will better prepare you for your future training.

3. Never heard of Nicolas.

4. Yes, it does matter. NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, TDI, and some other agencies require their cavern instructors to be full cave before becoming cavern instructors. PADI used to only require intro to cave but they changed that standard a few years ago. However, they grandfathered in the cavern instructors they had at the time. If the cavern instructor is only intro to cave then it's a safe bet he/she never did any type of internship or instructor examination to earn instructor status for cavern.

5. Here are a couple of lists of instructors. Several are located in Mexico.

NACD instructors (http://www.safecavediving.com/instructors.asp)

NSS-CDS instructors (http://www.nsscds.org/instructorlist)

6. I don't know about Mexico specifically, but you can expect to pay in the $300-400 range in Florida.

[DA Aquamaster]

I think with regard to number 4 he was asking if it mattered whether he chose a cavern instructor who was a full cave instructor versus a cavern and intro instructor - I don't think he was asking about the old versus new PADI cavern instructor requirements.

In my opinion, the instructor and his/her teaching style make more of a difference than whether they are an intro instructor or a full cave instructor.

[Aftertwoam]

I think with regard to number 4 he was asking if it mattered whether he chose a cavern instructor who was a full cave instructor versus a cavern and intro instructor - I don't think he was asking about the old versus new PADI cavern instructor requirements.

Yup, exactly, thanks!

As for doubles, I don't have experience in doubles, so should I stick w/single tanks for the course? I'll *have* to do doubles for anything past cavern though, right? When/how do ppl usually learn that?

Reading about everyone saying cavern really kicked their ass/humbled them is making me more and more nervous too, hope I don't psych myself out. Don't even need the 'fuel', I already have a thirst for it and I haven't even done anything yet!

*btw DA, I'm a she =)

[chrispete]

Reading about everyone saying cavern really kicked their ass/humbled them is making me more and more nervous too

It's the instructor's job to challenge you. It's your job to be prepared. The more prepared you are, the less you'll have to deal with for the first time in the actual class. For example, if you've run a reel a couple of dozen times before class you'll be more at ease with it in class and the instructor will get to spend less time teaching the "basics" of reels and more time letting you practice/teaching you how to handle a reel with a bit more finesse. That being said, a good class should have you doing some introspection when it is over, no matter how prepared you think you are going into it. That's a good thing, it's how one grows as a diver.

A mentor would likely be of great help, just keep in mind that the way a mentor does something may not be the way your instructor wants it done. While practice (with or without a mentor) is great, use it to familiarize yourself with things that will be covered in the class instead of getting set into (potentially) bad habits. For example, practicing handling a reel in general without having a birds nest of line coming back at you, etc. Just my $.02, good luck and have fun!

[WJH]

Most people learn to dive in doubles by getting some dives in with a friend who already does so to mentor them on hose routing and basic techniques. Some also take an Intro to Tech class. More and more, folks are skipping this step and taking an OW Sidemount class.

Enjoy your Cavern class, and don't worry about being too humbled. If you have good basic skills and excellent buoyancy control it will go well for you!

WJH

[lv2dive]

As for doubles, I don't have experience in doubles, so should I stick w/single tanks for the course?

It's been my own personal experience (not in a Cavern class) that the best way to acquire new skills is to focus that new skill acquisition... in your position, I'd stick w/ singles, given you haven't been diving doubles. You won't be getting any additional gas out of a doubles configuration at the Cavern level, so the only potential benefit to the doubles is prep for future classes (and there is the potential downside of being distracted by learning to manage the doubles). I'd focus on learning the Cavern skills in the Cavern class, and go from there. Just my $.02.

[gsk3]

Since you're in New York, if you want to make the most of your time in the cavern there are some great instructors up here who could get your skills sorted out before your trip. PM me if you want names.

[RN]

Yup, exactly, thanks!

As for doubles, I don't have experience in doubles, so should I stick w/single tanks for the course? I'll *have* to do doubles for anything past cavern though, right? When/how do ppl usually learn that?

Reading about everyone saying cavern really kicked their ass/humbled them is making me more and more nervous too, hope I don't psych myself out. Don't even need the 'fuel', I already have a thirst for it and I haven't even done anything yet!

*btw DA, I'm a she =)

Yes, stick with a single cylinder for the course. You shouldn't go into a cavern course with any new gear. While there is an intro class that can be completed in a single cylinder, I don't recommend it, especially if you want to go beyond that. Get experience in doubles before you move on. Either get a local mentor or take an intro to tech class that will give you the experience. However, do your homework. Not all Intro to Tech classes are the same. Some are used to teach you how to dive doubles and some are used simply to introduce you to tech gear and some basic tech skills. The intro to tech classes I teach are all different. I teach them based on what the student wants, but some instructors only teach one kind of intro to tech course.

[saxplayer1004]

Guess I'm different than some of the answers here.

Here's my recommendation. Find someone in New York who will get you in a pool in doubles. You need to be used to long hose, lights all that stuff anyway, and if you want to go to full cave eventually, just go in with doubles. Diving singles with an H valve is negligibly different than diving doubles, so why not just dive what you're aiming for anyway.

I would make sure your skills are up to snuff, and go cavern/intro in one long weekend with the instructor of your choice. Florida will be cheaper. I'm in the mentality that cave courses should teach you nothing except cave specific techniques, this is cavern included. Your instructor should not responsible for teaching you any skills *including reel work*. Instead he should be responsible for honing those skills and teaching you how to apply them in the cave. The rest of the skills can be taught in a pool, and frankly, you will ALWAYS gain more neutral buoyancy finesse in the pool than on a dive *the whole greater change in pressures in shallower depth*. If you can do the "technical" skills in 3 feet of water without throwing your buoyancy, then you can do it at 300.

I would go with a full cave instructor, mainly because if you decide you like him, then you can finish with him, and he also most likely has more teaching experience, which is good.

Don't do PADI cavern, waste of money if you want to go full cave. NAUI training is similar to GUE training, and the other 3 have much more freedom in teaching.

Reason for going intro straight off is you will get bored very quickly with cavern only and will want to just dive. Every cave dive is a cavern dive, so just go into cavern and you'll have a lot more freedom to actually dive. So with you in NY, find a mentor, and go diving with him. Get in a pool with him, buy him beer :-D. Lots more cheap time that way to get good and once you get into the cave, you won't be task loaded and you will pass. Too many people go into a cavern course unprepared which is why it kicked their butt. 3 days won't turn you from a crap diver into a good diver, it takes a lot more than that which is why you NEED a mentor. Even if you take a tech class, you have to have qualified people critiquing you constantly in order to get better. Once you're there, the 0-hero full cave week is simple and will not exhaust you. You don't learn many "new" skills, but you learn how to cut the cave properly, and you get to focus on diving as opposed to training.

Lots of people disagree with these thoughts, but that's the way it was done when cave instruction first started, and the way it was done until people tried to start making money off of it.

For instructors, there's 3 listed in the NACD list and 2 on the CDS list in Playa. All 5 of those are full cave, so no worries about that. Three of them do sidemount, and MAY teach in sidemount. My cave instructor stays in sidemount regardless of what his students are in. I like this because with the current push towards sidemount in a lot of divers, it's good to get mixed team experience. I'm certainly not going to dive doubles with a buddy just because he is only intro certified and only dove with doubles, tough. Same that some of my breather buddies won't dive OC if they don't want to just because their buddies are diving OC.

All good experiences, and if you pull from the CDS/NACD list you really can't go wrong with the instructors. Email them, call them, find one that you like dealing with. Good luck and have fun!


Or just go to Rob in Florida, book him for like 5 days and he'll teach you doubles and cavern/intro if you're ready and save all the hassle. Plenty of instructors will do that. OR better yet, find a buddy in your area who wants to do the same thing as you, THEN go together. You'll find you'll get a lot more out of it struggling with a buddy together and you'll also get a good dive buddy to encourage you to go diving.

[LCF]

1. Since I would love to be full cave certified eventually, it seems like I shouldn't take PADI cavern. I've emailed all the dive shops I could find down there, and a few of them offer IANTD, would this be accepted by most Intro to Cave instructors? I haven't asked about NACD/NAUI but I'm thinking it would be rare. It's not uncommon for instructors to hold credentials from multiple agencies. When I did cavern with German, he just asked me which agency's card I wanted. To my knowledge, PADI is the only cavern cert which is considered dubious.

2. Only one instructor has told me I could choose to do cavern w/double tanks, everyone else does it w/singles. Does it matter significantly? If you are doing the cavern class as a way to improve your OW skills, it doesn't matter. If you intend to go on to cave dive, I think it's better to be in doubles. But I totally agree with Ari (gsk3) that you should get into doubles and get your skills down before you take the class. One of my cavern classmates was doing the class and diving doubles for the first time, and it did not make his life easier. Of course, I also agree with Superlyte that anything you CAN learn outside of the overhead environment, you should. It's always seemed a bit silly to me to waste the limited time those of us who don't live there have in the overhead, learning things like kicks.

3. The instructor I mentioned above is Nicolas Casella - anyone know of him/had experiences w/him? I don't him or of him.

4. Does it matter if the instructor is certified full cave instructor, vs only intro to cave instructor? Obviously I'm not doing either of those, just wanted to know if it really makes a difference. I think what's more important is how much personal experience the person has cave diving. Perspective comes with experience. I know some good people with significant exploration experience who have only made it to Intro to Cave Instructor. It takes time and effort to get those ratings.

5. Any recs for cavern instructors in Playa del Carmen? The ones I found on this site seem to be more Cancun/Tulum/Cozumel. I tried to contact German Yanez anyway, since I thought I may have read in some thread he might be open to coming to the mainland, but got no response. Did get a response from Mexico Blue Dream, where Etienne would be the instructor. I read about him somewhere in this forum too, any info there? A couple of recommendations I would make that you might not otherwise hear of would be Jason Renoux (http://essentialscubatraining.com/) and Natalie Gibb. Jason is a beautiful diver and a very joyful person; I have not trained with him, but he is trained by Steve Bogaerts, and that's good training. I have dived with him, and he is careful and safety-conscious, but also a lot of fun to be around.

Natalie has worked for a long time with Dennis Weeks, as a guide and assisting with classes, and got her own instructor rating last year. She's a delight -- about 4'11" and a powerhouse. She has a lot of cave diving experience, and I think she would also be a very good and very fun person with whom to take a class. You can e-mail her at scuba.guide@about.com

Don't write German off -- he's not great about responding to e-mails promptly, as many of these folks are.

6. Obviously I don't want to skimp for the sake of skimping, but there is such a huge difference in prices among the people I've contacted that it's confusing me. Is there an 'average' of what a cavern course down there should cost? There is a huge range of prices. I paid about $200 a day, including tanks and entry fees, for all the training I didn't do with GUE.

[kidsdream]

You have recieved lots of good advice and comment in this thread. While I didn't do a class with Patrick Widmann from ProTec (they have shops in both Play and Talum), he did some guiding for my buddy and I last year; and I would certainly recommend him if he was available. He did a lot of time doing recriational training before focusing on overhead and he thoughtful style IMHO.

[Mart]

For instructors, there's 3 listed in the NACD list and 2 on the CDS list in Playa. All 5 of those are full cave, so no worries about that. Three of them do sidemount, and MAY teach in sidemount. My cave instructor stays in sidemount regardless of what his students are in.

I'm not sure about NSS/CDS because I do not teach for them. NACD does not allow cave courses in side-mount, and does not allow the instructor to dive sm when teaching cave.

[saxplayer1004]

I'm not sure about NSS/CDS because I do not teach for them. NACD does not allow cave courses in side-mount, and does not allow the instructor to dive sm when teaching cave.

My cave class was in sidemount with the instructor in sidemount. I believe the rule is that the instructor has to be certified to teach the sidemount speciality in order to allow students to be in sidemount and to teach in it. Rob Neto would know the rules better than I would. My class was with Paul Heinerth. I'm not sure how Rob works since he isn't listed as an NACD sidemount instructor, but I know Paul has taught in sidemount only for years and certifies NACD, CDS, and IANTD. I got all three of mine while I was there

[RN]

I'm not sure about NSS/CDS because I do not teach for them. NACD does not allow cave courses in side-mount, and does not allow the instructor to dive sm when teaching cave.

Not true. NACD does allow instructors to teach in sidemount. I have taught a few NACD courses in sidemount. I do teach sidemount for other agencies and will teach sidemount for NACD in December, which is my 1 year anniversary fr my crossover making me eligible. Up to this point I just submit a waiver request to teach in sidemount on a student by student basis. I believe Paul has a medical waiver due to a shoulder injury and surgery.

[DogHouseDiver]

I took IANTD cavern in sidemount after some SM mentoring and a short series.of familiarization dives... I just took to it like a fish, and ran my drills and worked trim before class. So no, doubles are not the next logical step after cavern. If planning to go sidemount eventually, do it sooner. Save on all those backplate and bands. I did my cavern class in SM with 2 single BM Divers.

+1 on Rob Neto's SM comment and.his instruction. Had him for.Intro and he was great <shameless plug>.

[Mart]

I do teach sidemount for other agencies and will teach sidemount for NACD in December,

Teaching sidemount is a different story. I was talking about a cave course in sm, not about a sm course.

[FW]

Teaching sidemount is a different story. I was talking about a cave course in sm, not about a sm course.
You quoted the wrong part of RN's statement. he WAS talking about teaching a regular cave class in sidemount.

Not true. NACD does allow instructors to teach in sidemount. I have taught a few NACD courses in sidemount.

[RN]

Thanks Forrest!


Teaching sidemount is a different story. I was talking about a cave course in sm, not about a sm course.

That's also what I was talking about in the sentence just before the one you quoted. NACD does allow it.

[CaveMD]

I'm not sure about NSS/CDS because I do not teach for them. NACD does not allow cave courses in side-mount, and does not allow the instructor to dive sm when teaching cave.
My intro instructor(Rob) taught in sidemount, I was in backmount doubles.

[RN]

My intro instructor(Rob) taught in sidemount, I was in backmount doubles.

Actually I did one day in each, which I usually do so my BM students have some exposure to SM and hopefully a better understanding of it. Most will either convert at some point or dive with someone in SM.

[Mart]

That's also what I was talking about in the sentence just before the one you quoted. NACD does allow it.

OK, maybe it is my mistake. This is what I was told by Larry Green two years ago.

[stdiver]

3. Nicolas Casella - I know him personally, great guy, very safety oriented. He's been in Playa for a long time. I took a Rescue course from him serveral years ago. I am going to fly to Playa to take the Cavern/Intro course from him in November, I will share my observations.

[break4]

+1 Nico is well known and respected and for sure a good joice.

[rongoodman]

5. Any recs for cavern instructors in Playa del Carmen? The ones I found on this site seem to be more Cancun/Tulum/Cozumel. I tried to contact German Yanez anyway, since I thought I may have read in some thread he might be open to coming to the mainland, but got no response. Did get a response from Mexico Blue Dream, where Etienne would be the instructor. I read about him somewhere in this forum too, any info there?

I did my cave, sidemount, and normoxic trimix classes with Protec in Playa and was quite pleased with them. I'm pretty sure they would be willing to start you off in your cavern class in sidemount. Nando is a great instructor and Patrick looks like he would be a lot of fun too. The logistics work out well if you're traveling by yourself, since Protec in Playa is right next to Mom's Hotel, cheap but clean, with plenty of restaurants within walking distance. They can have you picked up and delivered at the airport in Cancun, so you don't have to deal with car rentals at all. They'll give you an IANTD card. I'm not too fond of the IANTD manuals, so I'd recommend backing them up with some material from the other agencies. I like Jill Heinerth's books for cave and sidemount.

[Aftertwoam]

Wow thanks for all the great feedback! I've been a little sidetracked with minor injury (flying trapeze) and illness (flu), but am trying to get back into planning this trip. I've tried to get in touch w/everyone recommended to me, both on here and thru PMs (still no response from German!), so hopefully I'll get some responses. Reading through everyone's advice, I'd really like to get some training in before I go. I'm in NY, so options are pretty limited (I don't think there are any cavern/cave instructors in the entire northeast). I was thinking of just trying to get in the pool and work on basic skills, as someone suggested - anything specific I should focus on? Unless someone knows of instructor who can take me through cavern up here, or at least get me good enough w/the skills that I can maybe think of doing both Cavern and Intro to Cave once I get to Mexico?

[gsk3]

I'm in NY, so options are pretty limited (I don't think there are any cavern/cave instructors in the entire northeast).

Au contraire. YGPM.

[rongoodman]

You could contact Ed Hayes at The Scuba Shack in Hartford. He's a GUE instructor and cave diver and could certainly help you with your skills. Good guy, excellant teacher.

[LCF]

Another vote for Ed Hayes, or Bob Sherwood, or Trace Malinowski. You don't need a cavern instructor; you need someone who's good at putting people into doubles, teaching basic safety drills, and optimizing buoyancy, trim, and propulsion techniques.

One would think most technical instructors would meet those criteria, but if my experience here is any indicator, you need to be pretty picky to find someone who will actually get you well sorted out.

[skip]

Another vote for Ed Hayes, or Bob Sherwood, or Trace Malinowski. You don't need a cavern instructor; you need someone who's good at putting people into doubles, teaching basic safety drills, and optimizing buoyancy, trim, and propulsion techniques.

One would think most technical instructors would meet those criteria, but if my experience here is any indicator, you need to be pretty picky to find someone who will actually get you well sorted out.

Your experience here? where is here? what experience? how is it an indicator of the need to be picky? do tell.

by the way, I'm a tech instructor and specialize in putting people into doubles, basic safety and drills, optimizing buoyancy, trim and propulision techiques. and I don't let go once I have you. but I don't do cavern, intro, or cave. tech in open water. I think when you pass intro to tech, you've become a way better diver, including better at learning other stuff too, like cavern/cave, or deco, or trimix. It cuts your learning curve in half. I won't plug my independent instructor status any further, really just wanted you to have the info to frame your reply.

skip

[gsk3]

Skip,

You're in/near cave country. You hang out on CDF. I'm going to take a wild guess that her comment was not intended to apply to you.

Bungeed wings and the-more-gear-the-better attitudes are still reasonably common up here. Given that he wanted to take a cavern class, getting sorted out in advance by someone who knows cave diving, it makes sense to target a small handful of instructors who know what cave diving entails. Were you in these parts, I suspect you would be on the list (which is not intended to be comprehensive...I can think of a one or two others but I don't have personal experience with them).

Not sure what independent instructor status has to do with it, since two of the three names listed are not really shop based.

[LCF]

I'm sorry, I should have specified "here in the Puget Sound region". We have technical instructors here who neither teach nor model cave-quality buoyancy control, trim, or propulsion. We have others who are excellent, but you can't buy a pig in a poke and expect it to come out well.

Given the OP's location, I was simply passing along the names of some people I was sure would bring him up to cave standards. I'm sure they aren't the only ones, but they were people I knew.

[Mart]

Not true. NACD does allow instructors to teach in sidemount. I have taught a few NACD courses in sidemount. I do teach sidemount for other agencies and will teach sidemount for NACD in December, which is my 1 year anniversary fr my crossover making me eligible. Up to this point I just submit a waiver request to teach in sidemount on a student by student basis. I believe Paul has a medical waiver due to a shoulder injury and surgery.

I asked Larry and this seems to be the rule: in special circumstances it is possible to get a waiver for teaching in sidemount. The instructor has to be in the same configuration as the student.

[RN]

Right. When I teach cave courses in sidemount it's because my students are in sidemount.

[stdiver]

To follow up on all of the questions from the original post. I just got back from Playa last night. I completed the Cavern/Intro to Cave with Nico from CenoteXperience - great course, very challenging, lots of UW time. The whole course was done in doubles, we worked out all the kinks and by the end I feel very comfortable in doubles. We put in several very long days. The hardest course I've taken so far and well worth the time and money investment. So I would recommend it, I will continue with full cave training with him probably next year. So, my opinions (opinions of a newbie), don't take PADI cavern. Not sure if you would have to redo the course for IANTD anyway. If you want to go to full cave, get doubles experience. So if you can't get it during the cavern course or outside of the course. The confined water skills definitely will help you with getting used to doubles, take advantage of those times, do some extra skills, etc. It all pays off in the end.

[Aftertwoam]

Thanks so much to everyone who responded and/or PMed me with advice and recommendations - I was definitely inundated with information, and it was very much appreciated! I tried to get in touch w/as many recommended instructors as possible, and most were quick to respond and very forthcoming w/additional info & advice. (Etienne, Mauro, Nico, etc.) Unfortunately, due to scheduling issues w/the trip in general, I couldn't finalize my dates for the course until way too late, so most of the ppl I had contacted were already booked, but Etienne was super nice and volunteered to help me find someone w/availability on the dates I needed, which is how I actually ended up w/Jason Renoux, who had also been recommended by someone else on this thread!

In a word, Jason was awesome. Super nice & funny guy, open to any and every question I had (and I had many), he kept me on task when I needed to focus, and kept the mood light when I was feeling the stress of dealing with such a challenging course. The previous descriptions I had read definitely had it right - this course was tough and humbling, probably more so bc I am pretty inexperienced in diving still. Although Jason was definitely very thorough, he was open to suggestion and modified things as needed to fit both my diving abilities as well as my learning style through the course. He was very patient and encouraging, and I looked forward to each day of the course despite the difficulties I had.

So to sum up, Jason was totally awesome, cavern diving was incredible, and I cannot wait to get back there. If anyone has advice on how to become an American expat living/working down in the Mayan Riviera while diving at every opportunity, please feel free to PM me =)

[JamesK]

Glad you had a great time, and welcome to the addiction!!! Keep training and and never stop learning.

[CaveBuddy95]

Hi there,
glad you had fun, pleasure was mine. Looking forward to seeing you again soon.

Cheers,
Jason