Going over to Rebreather?

[skip]

I've been thinking about a rebreather, but dang the price is awful high. And then I think about the price to maintain a rebreather and wonder if the maintenance is worse than the original purchase. any insights on what it costs compared to OC to keep CC gear in good working order?

skip

[Dsix36]

I've been thinking about a rebreather, but dang the price is awful high. And then I think about the price to maintain a rebreather and wonder if the maintenance is worse than the original purchase. any insights on what it costs compared to OC to keep CC gear in good working order?

skip

The actual maintainance costs are not very high. You will need to replace sensors about once a year ($210 roughly) and some disenfectant for the loop.

The rest is very similar to OC gears costs. ie regulator overhauls and such.

The cost of sorb is not maintainace, but usage cost.

[skip]

The actual maintainance costs are not very high. You will need to replace sensors about once a year ($210 roughly) and some disenfectant for the loop.

The rest is very similar to OC gears costs. ie regulator overhauls and such.

The cost of sorb is not maintainace, but usage cost.

oh. maintenance costs and usage cost...any other costs you can think of? replacement costs? bailout costs? extra charter/entry fee costs cause it's "technical"? increased travel costs? and all the others I'm not thinking of!?

skip

[Dsix36]

oh. maintenance costs and usage cost...any other costs you can think of? replacement costs? bailout costs? extra charter/entry fee costs cause it's "technical"? increased travel costs? and all the others I'm not thinking of!?

skip

Replacement? Hopefully you will not loose it and have to replace it!

Bailout is different. You will end up with a whole crap load of tanks so that you always have the right mixes for the dives. If things go as planned, you will never use the bailout gas and it will just sit til the next dive.

I have never been charged extra just because i was diving with a rebreather. Granted they do charge more for a tech trip than a recreational trip.

Travel is not as simple with a rebreather. You will have to take the unit with you. OC guys can just take there regs and rent tanks on site. RB can still rent tanks though.

Tienuts did a very good cost analysis of CC vs. OC on one of these forums (here or RBW or TDS) that might be worth searching out.

Sorb is not exactly cheap, but you don't use that much at a time either. There will also be batteries for your computers.

If you do any deep dives, the cost of filling RB tanks vs. OC tanks with trimix is staggeringly different. This is where the RB can begin to help pay for itself, but it takes a lot of dives to do it. Don't think that you are getting into it to save money!

[skip]

I was mainly thinking of increased bottom time with less stuff, lighter weight, deep dives, and reduced amount of gear (bm, sm, open water, deep, etc.). same gear config for all types of diving to reduce number and amount of speciality gear. then again, more stuff might just be inevitable.

skip

[jcook]

D Six knows what he's talking about Skip. I support everything he has to say, it is spot on. I dive a rebreather and have noticed I may even spend a bit less on diving vs OC (caves only). Saving gas money for driving from having to get the tanks filled is a big plus. Yet I don't dive open water or really travel much with it, so I cannot say about that.

[Dsix36]

I was mainly thinking of increased bottom time with less stuff, lighter weight, deep dives, and reduced amount of gear (bm, sm, open water, deep, etc.). same gear config for all types of diving to reduce number and amount of speciality gear. then again, more stuff might just be inevitable.

skip

Yep, the more technical that you go, there more stuff you will carry. It can piss me off at times. I have this wonderful rebreather thingy on my back that will give me 6-8 hours underwater and I still have to carry enough bailout to exit the cave or hang for deco or both. I go into the dive hoping for the best and not needing the bailout gas, BUT???

It can definitely add complexity to the dives, but without the bailout, I don't even want to go there. I think alpinist's are suicidal.

[RN]

What are your reasons for going with a rebreather, Skip? Are you wanting to extend bottom time in the 80-120' depth range? Are you wanting to dive deep? Are you wanting to take photos of marine life?

I was looking at CCRs for a couple of years. My reason for wanting one was to extend bottom time in the 80-120' depth range. Taking 2-3 stages into JB, Hole, etc, was getting old. Then KISS came out with the GEM. I researched it a little and ended up buying one. It's much less expensive than a CCR and does exactly what I want it to do for me. I can now do the dives I was doing with 2-3 stages without a stage and still have enough bailout to get out of the cave safely.

[skip]

i've seen the GEM in action in missouri once or twice and was impressed. simple clean efficient. hmmmm.

skip

[jcook]

Cannot go wrong with a KISS Classic either, just remember the GEM uses the Extend Air cartridges (someone please correct me if I am wrong) which can get rather expensive.

[icestac]

Skip,

I've had two rebreathers now. I love my rEvo, but for doing bigger cave dives, I find myself carrying more OC gas than when I was diving OC (the biggest risk I see is a CO2 hit and from everything I've read you suck gas like a vacuum) given that I generally dive it solo. I like the fact that I have plenty of time to work out issues underwater, but it really is a pain in the butt to lug all the extra gear around. I've found that I've been using my Magnus more than my rebreather if I need to get farther into the cave. I am seriously considering the GEM, but I'm holding off until the sidemount edition is released.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Attchoum]

Rebreathere are amazing, not only for the capacity they have but also for the comfort level they can give you. Getting out, not tired after a 3hours+ dive is just marvelous.

The cost, both buying and using it, will depend a lot with the unit you choose. Small example is the batteries in the handset. I got some friend that use lithium batteries in they hammerhead and they change batteries after 11-12 hours. My revo/shearwater use the same lithium batteries but I change it after around 60 hours.

Keep in mind that each rebreather diver will tell you that they have the best unit. You need to read a lot before you choose and gather a lot of pro and con on each unit before making a decision.

I have use Megalodon, kiss, poseidon, hammerhead and of course Revo. As many other on that forum, I will be happy to help.

[Benderr]

I have never been charged extra just because i was diving with a rebreather. Granted they do charge more for a tech trip than a recreational trip.


extra charter/entry fee costs cause it's "technical"?

I realize it's just for Pensacola dive sites, but the H2O Below charges tech divers with a rebreather, or a single set of doubles the same as rec divers. The upcharge is only added for scooters, or more than two stages. http://www.ussoriskanydiver.com/tech.htm

[Bobby]

I agree with all that has been said so far. Getting a CCR or SCR to save money is not a good approach. The initial investment is the hardest hit, after that they are marginally cheaper if you already own enough cylinders to cover having gas on hand for the range of diving you do. If I was on the CCR all the time I would have enough cylinders but I switch back and forth requiring me to change gasses for deeper dives.

Being meticulous with your gear and diving skills to the point of obsessive compulsive is important as well. Maintaining the unit, pre-dive checks, post dive checks, and in water monitoring are extremely important. It gets easier as it becomes habit but still requires more attention than OC. SCR is between the two on that issue. For me carrying two stages for depths shallower than 150' OC is the set up. I will often dive CCR on these types of dives because I need to keep my skills up instead of what is optimal.

A lot of OC skills will either not carry over or will need to be modified for CCR diving. I relate it like you are now an OW technical diver and want to transition to full cave. If you are honest with yourself, you will need time to dial in the skills and become comfortable with the procedures.

Then there are the incidents on CCR's. The reality is that deaths are abnormally high for CCR divers. New divers do fairly well until they hit the 100 hour mark, then the incidents are all over the map when gauged against experience and time diving the units. Don brought up an idea that incidents may relate more to time on units recently such as how much time they have had on their unit in the last month, quarter, year. There is not enough data to know if there is a correlation but I think he may be on to something. Bottom line is that going to CCR moves you into a much higher risk group.

If after all of the above a CCR (or SCR) is still on your list I would suggest spending time learning and understanding how they work. Understanding how the cells monitor PPO2 and their failure modes, the electronics and how they interact with the cells, mechanics, etc.. Then start making a list of what you want to use the unit for and what you might use it for in the future. The list will help you narrow down your options for what unit might best fit your needs. This is not like regulators where the differences are marginal so spend some time figuring out which unit will best fit your needs.

Contrary to popular opinion owners of units can be a good source of information. It is easy to qualify the good information by how much someone will discuss the weak points of their units. The more open and willing they are to acknowledging the weak points the better they understand them IMO.

[Attchoum]

Agree... let's talk about the weak point...

Paul (the owner of revo) wrote a good article about oxygen cell. Good source of info about failure mode of the cell.

you can find it here: http://www.revo-rebreathers.com/uploads/downloadsitems/Understanding_oxygen_sensors.pdf

[FW]

Agree... let's talk about the weak point...

Paul (the owner of revo) wrote a good article about oxygen cell. Good source of info about failure mode of the cell.

you can find it here: http://www.revo-rebreathers.com/uploads/downloadsitems/Understanding_oxygen_sensors.pdf
Thanks for that link, I have been trying to remember where it was.

[apitkin]

Here's my 0.02.

Do not buy a rebreather to save money. It will cost more than OC.

Do not buy a rebreather to save time. It will cost more time than OC.

Do not buy a rebreather to save on complexity of gear - you will still be taking more with you. By the time you are going farther than you would on OC, you will need a lot of bailout.

The only reason to use a rebreather is to do dives that simply cannot be accomplished (easily) on open-circuit. Or, you are somewhere (e.g. on expedition) where logistics will not sustain repeated open-circuit dives. Oh, and taking pictures of pretty fish.

Talk to as many rebreather divers as you possibly can, especially the ones doing the kinds of dives you are doing, or that you want to do.

[FW]

Here's my 0.02.

Do not buy a rebreather to save money. It will cost more than OC.

Do not buy a rebreather to save time. It will cost more time than OC.

Do not buy a rebreather to save on complexity of gear - you will still be taking more with you. By the time you are going farther than you would on OC, you will need a lot of bailout.

The only reason to use a rebreather is to do dives that simply cannot be accomplished (easily) on open-circuit. Or, you are somewhere (e.g. on expedition) where logistics will not sustain repeated open-circuit dives. Oh, and taking pictures of pretty fish.

Talk to as many rebreather divers as you possibly can, especially the ones doing the kinds of dives you are doing, or that you want to do.
I agree 100%!!

I have three rebreathers, and only use one if the dive requires it.

[w ripley]

...Then start making a list of what you want to use the unit for and what you might use it for in the future. The list will help you narrow down your options for what unit might best fit your needs...

I wanted to single out this one point, from all of the other excellent points in this thread, because when you are just beginning to look at RBs they all seem to be the same, other than the way they look. And, it is hard to glean the differences between units.

If you are not the kind of person who investigates every aspect of every purchase, then it might be smarter to dive what others doing the same type of dives are diving. If you are such a person, are you ever going to have fun reseaching the treads in RBW and, now, all of the other dive forums.

To answer the OPs question, IMO RBs are terribly expensive, are terribly labor intensive, and terribly complex if you are doing serious dives. It's just that you can't do some type of dives as well without them.

[RN]

Cannot go wrong with a KISS Classic either, just remember the GEM uses the Extend Air cartridges (someone please correct me if I am wrong) which can get rather expensive.

Yes, but KISS is coming out with a scrubber insert eventually.



I am seriously considering the GEM, but I'm holding off until the sidemount edition is released.

I'm attaching my GEM similar to a sidemount stage cylinder. Still have the CLs out, but I'm not sure the smaller space in the sidemount version would work for me. I had to release the bungees on my CL covers to be able to breathe easily.



Do not buy a rebreather to save on complexity of gear - you will still be taking more with you. By the time you are going farther than you would on OC, you will need a lot of bailout.

Not all penetration is completely linear. My reason for getting the GEM was to do more exploration in the 3000' range of a few different systems. I can easily swim out from that area on an LP85 and have plenty of gas left over. So one cylinder gets plumbed into the GEM and the other is bailout. Saves me on the gas needed to get back there and to hang around for an hour or so.

[Art Greenberg]

Being meticulous with your gear and diving skills to the point of obsessive compulsive is important as well.

+100!!

A few folks have mentioned TIME. You'll spend a lot more time cleaning your CCR post-dive than your OC gear (yes, even if you only dive in fresh water). And you will spend a lot more time getting your CCR ready to dive. Extreme attention to detail is, IMO, a prerequisite. And you'll need to pay more attention to the rig while diving, too.

I have owned a KISS Classic for almost 4 years now. It suffices for the diving I do (wrecks mostly in the 100-150 foot range, and some reefs). I am about to find out what its like in the caves ...

I have a love-hate relationship with my KISS. Its simple and not at all difficult to maintain. I get along just fine with the constant bleed + manual override for oxygen addition. I was not happy with the low pressure hose routing, and I've modified my KISS a bit to make it more to my liking. I also added plumbing so I can connect an off-board diluent supply, which just as the original plumbing did, also connects to the BOV, so as long as the BOV's second stage is operational I can bail out without deploying another second stage (but of course I have that as well). I have not had any issues with the ADV diaphragm that some others seem to have had, though at one point the ADV tilt valve did malfunction closed, and I had to resort to using the BOV to add diluent to the loop (no big deal). The biggest negative IMO is access to the counterlungs for removal and replacement (done frequently). The KISS Explorer addresses that issue reasonably well. You might want to consider that upgrade if you are at all interested in the KISS CCR.

As far as costs ... I replace the oxygen sensors annually; to date I've not had a reason to replace one before annual maintenance. I replace all of the o-rings annually. I figure that adds up to under $300. I replace the CO2 absorbent at the end of each dive day (my typical day is two dives off a boat, about 2-2.5 hours total run time). On the KISS I get 7 absorbent fills from a single 44-pound keg of Sofnolime 812. So figure around $20/day for that. I usually dive with a pair of Catalina AL19s, and I easily get 4 dives out of an oxygen fill, and depending upon the depth and how much up and down there is, about the same out of a diluent fill. I have not had an equipment failure that cost anything. The ADV tilt valve problem which cost nothing to fix, and I had an issue with the cable connecting the oxygen sensors to the dive computer (Shearwater Pursuit) which was repaired under warranty by Shearwater (oh, I did have to pay a few bucks for shipping).

--
Art