View Full Version : Pee Valve Problems
gasdiver
08-08-2011, 03:58 PM
When I first started diving dry suits in the early 80's the pee valve had no been invented, or I had never heard of them. I got back into cave diving after an extended period of time last year and bought a used dry suit. I had Gamble put in a new neck seal and pee valve. Since then I've been ranting about how nice it is to be able to relieve yourself underwater in a dry suit.
While I was aware of the possibility of UTI, I did not give it much thought. Being a cheap bastard, I would put on one condom catheter and use it for two dives in one day. After every trip I would flush the tube/valve generously with fresh water, but did not disinfect it in any way. Well, it caught up with me this weekend. Sunday morning I got up not feeling great. We made our planned dive and after I took my gear off, I felt like I had been hit by a milk truck. My lower back ached, my head ached and I had to pee every hour on the way from JB to Atlanta. By the time I got home, in addition to feeling bad and having a mild fever, I felt like I had to go, but could not.
So I ran to the urgent care facility a short distance away to see a doctor. I gave them a very small urine sample and told him what I had been doing that weekend. He took a look at the urine sample and considered all my symptoms. Heck, I could look at the urine sample and see there was something wrong. It looked like algae in my urine!
The doctor said it was either a prostate or bladder infection, but would not know until the lab results came back on Wednesday. He did give me a script for antibiotics, but he said it would take a couple of days before I started feeling better. So far he has been right, I still feel like crap and have a fever, but I seem to be improving.
Now, I'm going to search the forum for that pee valve disinfectant I read about some time back...
icestac
08-08-2011, 04:08 PM
I think my buddies use a 50/50 white vinegar and water solution to flush the line. I've never had a problem myself and don't bother flushing with anything special, I just make sure the line is clear before hanging up the suit.
Are you sure the infection is not from the discount massage parlor behind the truck stop? :eek:
Hope you get to feeling better!
Cheers,
Jeff
loquat149
08-08-2011, 04:16 PM
Balanced or Unbalanced???
Dave
Greenwood_60
08-08-2011, 09:00 PM
My lower back ached, my head ached and I had to pee every hour on the way from JB to Atlanta. By the time I got home, in addition to feeling bad and having a mild fever, I felt like I had to go, but could not.
Sounds a bit like a kidney stone. Will usually cause an infection too. Had one a few years back, I can now feel my kidneys when my bladder is too full. If you can get pure cranberry juice from your health food store (and choke large quantities down) you will feel better a lot quicker. I would cut 50/50 with apple juice. Still tastes like ****.
gasdiver
08-08-2011, 09:15 PM
No truck stop antics for me:)
It is a balanced valve.
Well, I had a kidney stone about 5 years ago. While this is painful, it pales in comparison to that. I mentioned the kidney stone to the doc, but he did not think that was my problem.
JCGoodwin
08-08-2011, 09:24 PM
I have been using one cath for all day diving with no issues as of yet.
I do rinse and dry the valve every night post dive.
There have been other reports of wicked infections from using non-flushed or valves that were not dried between dives.
Thus why I always dry the valve and on occasion rinse with a little dish detergent and if I am having to put on wet I rinse with a weak bleach solution.
Beware getting that on your suit though not friendly at all.
Hope you feel better soon.
JCG
Slüdge
08-08-2011, 09:41 PM
Real men hold it.
cavemark
08-09-2011, 06:09 AM
Rochester Wide Bands hold so well that I have left one cath on for two days of diving in a row. Never had a problem with an infection. Unbalanced valve. I make sure the Norprene hose is completely empty at the end of the day. I try to hydrate enough before the dive so that I have to pee before I get in the water to flush the line.
divindoc
08-09-2011, 10:46 AM
The doctor said it was either a prostate or bladder infection, but would not know until the lab results came back on Wednesday.
There's a pretty easy way to tell, called a DRE (Digital Rectal Exam). The prostate is boggy and tender with prostatitis; normally it has a firm, rubbery feel - I know, maybe TMI for some, but a simple rectal exam could have differentiated this at the time. It is important to make the distinction as prostatitis usually requires a 3 week course of antibiotics.
FWIW, I found an unbalanced valve to have much less resistance than a balanced valve when urinating. The adhesive on my caths works so well that my Unit can only stand 1 catheter/day of diving. I leave the QD on the catheter and just rinse with plain water between dives, and rinse the tubing with 50/50 isopropyl/vinegar or lots of plain water if that isn't available. Make sure the tubing dries thoroughly after you're done diving for the day.
Be careful that the tubing doesn't kink anywhere along its' length. For someone that drinks industrial-strength coffee every am, a functioning P-valve is a thing of beauty!
Sounds a bit like a kidney stone. Will usually cause an infection too. Had one a few years back, I can now feel my kidneys when my bladder is too full. If you can get pure cranberry juice from your health food store (and choke large quantities down) you will feel better a lot quicker. I would cut 50/50 with apple juice. Still tastes like ****.
You can find cranberry pills in any vitamin section. Pop a couple of 400mg or so every 2-3 hours, and drink lots of fluids. It will flush you plenty quickly and clean out your whole system.
Alternately, you can drink a 1/2 gallon of cranberry juice in a 4-hour period. Yuck. Chill the heck out of it if you go this route.
Art Greenberg
08-09-2011, 01:34 PM
I'm a slow learner sometimes, and as a consequence I've had a prostate infection twice. I'm darned near 100% certain that it was due to lack of proper cleaning of the P-valve tubing both times. I did need the full 28-day course of antibiotics both times. The second time, the discomfort and fever were not as bad as the first time. My urologist told me that, in his experience, that is common. He warned that the third time I might not even notice symptoms until the infection was quite well along, with possible serious consequences.
Now, at the end of the dive day, I rinse _all_ of the P-valve tubing and check valves with a weak bleach solution, then I blow dry air through it all to get as much of the liquid out as I can. I then hang it to dry. I also always use a fresh catheter each day. I found it somewhat uncomfortable sleeping with the darned thing on, anyway.
--
Art
Slüdge
08-09-2011, 01:39 PM
Art, I believe that would be enough to make me toss the P-valve into the nearest trash can and be done with it. See Post #7.
MORGAN
08-09-2011, 01:44 PM
Real men hold it.
Holding it for extended periods is a risk factor for UTI as well. Hydrate aggressively, pee often!
One of the several reasons I prefer to dive wet. No messing about with pee valves and plumbing - just let 'er rip!
gasdiver
08-09-2011, 02:18 PM
The doctor said it was either a prostate or bladder infection, but would not know until the lab results came back on Wednesday.
There's a pretty easy way to tell, called a DRE (Digital Rectal Exam). The prostate is boggy and tender with prostatitis; normally it has a firm, rubbery feel - I know, maybe TMI for some, but a simple rectal exam could have differentiated this at the time. It is important to make the distinction as prostatitis usually requires a 3 week course of antibiotics.
FWIW, I found an unbalanced valve to have much less resistance than a balanced valve when urinating. The adhesive on my caths works so well that my Unit can only stand 1 catheter/day of diving. I leave the QD on the catheter and just rinse with plain water between dives, and rinse the tubing with 50/50 isopropyl/vinegar or lots of plain water if that isn't available. Make sure the tubing dries thoroughly after you're done diving for the day.
Be careful that the tubing doesn't kink anywhere along its' length. For someone that drinks industrial-strength coffee every am, a functioning P-valve is a thing of beauty!
I arrived at the urgent care facility 20 minutes before they closed. My impression was that the old doc wanted to leave on time. I was thankful for the antibiotic script, none the less. It's a little disappointing to know that he could have done more, but if I been 20 minutes later, my only option would have been an ER visit. After almost 48 hours, I'm starting to feel a little better, but not 100%.
I arrived at the urgent care facility 20 minutes before they closed. My impression was that the old doc wanted to leave on time. I was thankful for the antibiotic script, none the less. It's a little disappointing to know that he could have done more, but if I been 20 minutes later, my only option would have been an ER visit. After almost 48 hours, I'm starting to feel a little better, but not 100%.
It took me several days to recuperate. I have heard of people that didn't go to the doctor soon enough, and ended up in the hospital.
Slüdge
08-09-2011, 03:42 PM
Holding it for extended periods is a risk factor for UTI as well.
What extended periods? My dives are usually under 90 minutes. I have to hold it for three hours at school...
divindoc
08-09-2011, 04:45 PM
"my only option would have been an ER visit."
Hey, I resemble that remark!
And seriously Sludge, "holding it" isn't such a great idea - pee early, and often; live long, and prosper (and avoid UTI's!)
MORGAN
08-09-2011, 05:23 PM
What extended periods? My dives are usually under 90 minutes. I have to hold it for three hours at school...
What? No potty breaks for the teacher? :)
I often have to go a long time between bathroom breaks when the ER's busy or I'm on a transport, and it's no problem. On the other hand, as soon as I get into the water on a dive I'll need to pee within about 20 minutes. Is it fluid being redistributed into the central circulation in a weightless environment? Aggressive pre-dive hydration? Pavlovian conditioning? The sheer joy of peeing in my wetsuit? Or some combination of the above? Who knows?
Capt. Tyler
08-09-2011, 06:18 PM
So would a UTI or prostate infection caused from diving be covered under DAN?
gasdiver
08-09-2011, 09:11 PM
So would a UTI or prostate infection caused from diving be covered under DAN?
I doubt it. Back in 92 I got bent diving HITW and my buddies drove me to PC for treatment. Since my company insurance paid for everything, DAN contributed nothing. There are folks who know more about this than I do, but my understanding is that it is "supplemental", only covering what your primary won't.
Now that I think about it, the Mill Pond has not been real nice to me:(
adam0321
08-10-2011, 12:48 AM
Real men hold it.
Enjoy that upcoming UTI!
cavemark
08-10-2011, 06:16 AM
Alternately, you can drink a 1/2 gallon of cranberry juice in a 4-hour period. Yuck. Chill the heck out of it if you go this route.
If you've had to flush the system before a colonoscopy this doesn't seem so bad.
I have to hold it for three hours at school...
When I took my PE exam I wore a leg bag so I could stay well hydrated (I get headaches if I don't drink enough water) and I wouldn't lose any time for going to the bathroom. My seat was in the front of the hall and the bathroom was out the back door and down the corridor. At 6 minutes a question it would have been easy to lose the time for a question having to get up.
harmstrong
08-10-2011, 06:37 AM
Is it fluid being redistributed into the central circulation in a weightless environment? Aggressive pre-dive hydration? Pavlovian conditioning? The sheer joy of peeing in my wetsuit? Or some combination of the above? Who knows?
How about Immersion Diuresis- you should have learned that somewhere along the way- it's in the OW curriculum.
JamieZ
08-10-2011, 06:44 AM
It took me several days to recuperate. I have heard of people that didn't go to the doctor soon enough, and ended up in the hospital.
That would be me. I was in pain for 3 days straight, couldnt eat or drink before I went to emergency. It basically felt like someone hit me in the lower back and sides with a baseball bat,,,,repeatedly, I could barely walk. It was caused from a kinked hose, back pressure while trying to pee. UTI, emergency room, almost dead from dehydration, they hydrated me, gave me some really good pain killers that made me see stars when they injected it (I yelled whoohooo and the nurses came running back in),,, then antibiotics. 4-6 hours later I was on my way home.
The biggest thing with pee valves isn't cleaning them, its making sure they are unrestricted at the surface. Make sure you can easily pee before you go under without having to push at all, no back pressure. Prime before you dive.
MORGAN
08-10-2011, 07:08 AM
How about Immersion Diuresis- you should have learned that somewhere along the way- it's in the OW curriculum.
Yeah, that's the fluid redistribution part.
Benthic
08-10-2011, 07:21 AM
Yeah, that's the fluid redistribution part.
Actually, that's the whole thing. Immersion diuresis is the production of urine as a result of submerging the body in water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_diuresis
Brian
Xenia
08-10-2011, 07:21 AM
How do you get back pressure on the pee valve? Kinked hose or something else? I dive unbalanced with She-P, never had an issue with back pressure.
MORGAN
08-10-2011, 07:40 AM
Actually, that's the whole thing. Immersion diuresis is the production of urine as a result of submerging the body in water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_diuresis
Brian
I'm familiar with the physiology of immersion diuresis, but I think there may be a bit of operant conditioning at work as well. Having my wetsuit on makes me want to pee even when I'm not in the water! :)
Mike
JamieZ
08-10-2011, 07:50 AM
How do you get back pressure on the pee valve? Kinked hose or something else? I dive unbalanced with She-P, never had an issue with back pressure.
Kinked hose, crapped up check valve, to many bends in the routing,,,,string clogs the hose if its that time of the month :)
Trying to pee with the valve closed.
JamieZ
08-10-2011, 07:52 AM
Having my wetsuit on makes me want to pee even when I'm not in the water! :)
Mike
Maybe you have a pee fetish....there's weirder things on the internet
Slüdge
08-10-2011, 11:26 AM
Enjoy that upcoming UTI!
Is this opposite day? One of the major reasons I don't get a P-valve is the horror stories I have heard from people that got a UTI from using one. I believe the longest I've ever gone between putting a drysuit on and taking it off was two hours. Can anyone on here think of a case where someone got a UTI from not peeing for two hours?
(BTW Adam, beautiful picture of you and your wife on the buddy page. I wish we could have gotten together when Lynn was in town.)
MORGAN
08-10-2011, 11:30 AM
Maybe you have a pee fetish....there's weirder things on the internet
LOL - Nah, I have a cave diving fetish!
adam0321
08-10-2011, 11:53 AM
I use listerine. Figure that stuff can kill anything.
Sent from my Eris
plan your dive...dive your plan ! No defacating in yur dry suit, & take a leak before you descend. This takes practice, but can be done.
...Trying to pee with the valve closed.
I can vouch for that one causing it :(
shagyluke
08-10-2011, 03:27 PM
"Depends" for adults is your friend....:)
gasdiver
08-10-2011, 04:01 PM
Well, the lab results came back today negative for bacteria. I'm thinking this is not good, so I have an appointment to see a urologist on Monday. The doc told me to stay on the antibiotics and I am feeling a little better.
divindoc
08-10-2011, 09:23 PM
Well, the lab results came back today negative for bacteria. I'm thinking this is not good, so I have an appointment to see a urologist on Monday. The doc told me to stay on the antibiotics and I am feeling a little better.
Not unusual for to see a negative urine culture with prostatitis, unless the doc did a prostatic massage with the DRE - another reason to have a complete exam in the first place.
gasdiver
08-10-2011, 09:51 PM
Thanks for you comments divindoc. I just looked up prostatitis on the Mayo Clinic web site and now have a better understanding of what I may be dealing with here.
divindoc
08-11-2011, 09:51 AM
You're Welcome gasdiver. I'm not trying to dispense medical advice on the 'net, just trying to help out a fellow diver. Looks like you're in for a prolonged course of antibiotics.
gasdiver
08-11-2011, 12:26 PM
You're Welcome gasdiver. I'm not trying to dispense medical advice on the 'net, just trying to help out a fellow diver. Looks like you're in for a prolonged course of antibiotics.
I understand.
I've not yet encountered any reports of UTI with the She-P. I have seriously wondered whether it's because backpressure on the tubing is not going to result in reflux of urine into the urethra, because there is another, lower pressure option . . . Men don't have that; any back pressure is going to cause reflux of urine into the urethra and bladder.
Someone, and I thought it was posted here, was trying to collect cases of p-valve associated UTI, with a theory that the bacteriology of them was different from that of run-of-the-mill UTIs (which, btw, are fairly unusual in anatomically normal adult men).
JCGoodwin
08-14-2011, 07:50 AM
Gasdiver hope you are feeling better I am hoping and praying your condition is resolved soon.
I have been having issues with the prostate for several years and it can be quite uncomfortable.
Be very proactive and find out what things can help your recovery, foods, drinks, etc.
I have found that some things really set me off and others tend to help.
Take care brother, get well soon.
JCG
BabyDuck
08-14-2011, 08:59 AM
i agree, lynne - a backpressure wave is going to take the path of least resistance & be no big deal.
gasdiver
08-15-2011, 02:15 PM
I went to see the urologist today. He listened to my symptoms and said it was a classic case of prostatitis. I asked him if the p-valve had anything to do with it and he said no. It was just coincidence that it happened on a dive trip. He said if the p-valve were involved, the lab results would show bacteria in the urine (UTI) and a kink in the hose (peeing too hard) did not cause prostatitis. He did say that once it happens, it's more likely to happen again, but that I'd probably recognize the symptoms sooner and hopefully get on antibiotics before my symptoms get as bad as they did this time.
I went to see the urologist today. He listened to my symptoms and said it was a classic case of prostatitis. I asked him if the p-valve had anything to do with it and he said no. It was just coincidence that it happened on a dive trip. He said if the p-valve were involved, the lab results would show bacteria in the urine (UTI) and a kink in the hose (peeing too hard) did not cause prostatitis. He did say that once it happens, it's more likely to happen again, but that I'd probably recognize the symptoms sooner and hopefully get on antibiotics before my symptoms get as bad as they did this time.
Well, you may have misdiagnosed it, but at least the fear of a UTI got you to go to the doctor. A lot of people have the attitude, "Oh, I will get better, I don't need to pay any stinking doctor". Then they end up in a hospital, even doctors themselves :-D
I've not yet encountered any reports of UTI with the She-P. I have seriously wondered whether it's because backpressure on the tubing is not going to result in reflux of urine into the urethra, because there is another, lower pressure option . . . Men don't have that; any back pressure is going to cause reflux of urine into the urethra and bladder.
Someone, and I thought it was posted here, was trying to collect cases of p-valve associated UTI, with a theory that the bacteriology of them was different from that of run-of-the-mill UTIs (which, btw, are fairly unusual in anatomically normal adult men).
That would have been me, for Dr Harry. He is the guy that wrote a paper on the subject.
DrHarry
10-17-2011, 11:11 PM
5001
This is the article.
Cheers
Harry
Interesting article. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at Pseudomonas playing a big role here.
5001
This is the article.
Cheers
Harry
Thanks Harry! I hear your group found something new on the Roe Plain :-)
Art Greenberg
10-18-2011, 07:55 AM
Interesting article. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at Pseudomonas playing a big role here.
Pseudomonas was identified in one of my two UTI events. I've been cleaning the tubing with a weak bleach solution and drying with compressed air. After reading that article, I'm concerned that might not be sufficient. Is chlorhexidine available over the counter in the US?
--
Art
Wikipedia: It is sometimes marketed under the brand names Foam Safe, Hexicleans, Peridex, Periochip, Perichlor or Periogard Oral Rinse. In the UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) it is mainly marketed under the brand name Corsodyl (or Chlorohex); in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) as Curasept (Curaden Healthcare srl); in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) as Chlorhexamed; in Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) and New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand) as Savacol; in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) as Chrolhexil (Intermed S.A.); in India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India) as Suthol (G. D. Pharmaceuticals), Sterimax (Bioshields), Clohex or Dejavu-MW (QUADRA); in Venezuela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela) as Perioxidina or Peridont, in Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) as Oronine and in some Central American countries as Clorexil.
As a skin cleanser, it is marketed under brand names such as Hibiclens, Savinox plus (Bioshields), Surgiprep-CHX (Bioshields), Hibiscrub, or Dexidin mainly as a surgical scrub, Hexigard 4 as surgical hand wash, Hexigard HR as hand rub (Mil Laboratories Pvt Ltd) and is also available as a wound wash. It is also used in some acne skin washes. It is also used as part of a treatment for athlete's foot. In some countries, it is available by prescription (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_prescription) only.
And this from petplace.com: Chlorhexidine is classified as a disinfectant or cleanser. It is used both to treat environmental surfaces, and in less concentrated forms, to treat the skin, ears and oral cavity. It is effective against bacteria, fungus, yeast and viruses.
<li class="ArticleContentBullet"> Chlorhexidine is an OTC (over the counter (javascript: void(0);) drug) but should not be administered unless under the supervision and guidance of a veterinarian.
<li class="ArticleContentBullet"> Chlorhexidine is used in veterinary medicine for the treatment and prevention of dermatological (skin) conditions and for the
skip
Art Greenberg
10-18-2011, 09:47 AM
Thanks Skip. I see Amazon has Hibiclens (4% chlorhexidine in solution) in a few sizes. It looks like the oral rinses are lower concentration.
--
Art
LiveBait
10-18-2011, 10:01 AM
DURVET INC CHLORHEXIDINE 2% SOLUTION (001-0259)-------- A topical aqueous cleaning solution for use on horses and dogs for application to superficial cuts or abrasions. It is effective against gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. Provides residual effe
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=chlorhexidine&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&biw=1027&bih=1114&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9823698486822071404&sa=X&ei=9JKdTuT_EaKJsgLLn5DsCQ&ved=0CHUQ8wIwAA
This product claim's to have two percent chlorhexidine and is effective against GNR bacteria. Is that strong enough?
DURVET INC CHLORHEXIDINE 2% SOLUTION (001-0259)-------- A topical aqueous cleaning solution for use on horses and dogs for application to superficial cuts or abrasions. It is effective against gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. Provides residual effe
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=chlorhexidine&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&biw=1027&bih=1114&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9823698486822071404&sa=X&ei=9JKdTuT_EaKJsgLLn5DsCQ&ved=0CHUQ8wIwAA
This product claim's to have two percent chlorhexidine and is effective against GNR bacteria. Is that strong enough?
That is what I use.
Anyone have trouble with the glue on the Rochester Med cathether? Damn that is a problem in itself. Warm water didn't cut it. Three days later still had glue.
sskasser
10-18-2011, 01:18 PM
Anyone have trouble with the glue on the Rochester Med cathether? Damn that is a problem in itself. Warm water didn't cut it. Three days later still had glue.
This takes care of the glue we use on the She-P and doesn't smell like WD-40. I have male dive buddies that use it as well, so you can be sure it's gentle ;) : http://www.orange-sol.com/medical/index.html
gasdiver
10-18-2011, 09:33 PM
This takes care of the glue we use on the She-P and doesn't smell like WD-40. I have male dive buddies that use it as well, so you be sure it's gentle ;) : http://www.orange-sol.com/medical/index.html
That looks like a good idea. Alcohol wipes don't work worth a flip.
MORGAN
10-18-2011, 10:30 PM
This takes care of the glue we use on the She-P and doesn't smell like WD-40. I have male dive buddies that use it as well, so you be sure it's gentle ;) : http://www.orange-sol.com/medical/index.html
When I worked in ICU, that is what we used to remove adhesive residues. Some of those medical adhesives seem like they'd need a belt sander and half a box of 40 grit belts to get the residue off, but this stuff works almost like magic.
DrHarry
10-19-2011, 04:27 AM
The meths and acetic acid home brew is perfect for pseudomonas and is cheap and easy to make. You can also drop it in your ears if you get swimmer's ear (tropical ear, otitis externa). I use a sauce (ketchup) bottle to squirt out the P valve tubing at the end of a day's diving.
Hey Forrest...yes exciting times on the roe Plain ;-)
Harry
The meths and acetic acid home brew is perfect for pseudomonas..
In US English, that is alcohol, and vinegar. :-) Not what we call Meth here.
This takes care of the glue we use on the She-P and doesn't smell like WD-40. I have male dive buddies that use it as well, so you be sure it's gentle ;) : http://www.orange-sol.com/medical/index.html
Thanks!! I will give it a try. I was hoping I would not have to try "goo gone"
DA Aquamaster
10-19-2011, 07:19 AM
Pseudomonas was identified in one of my two UTI events. I've been cleaning the tubing with a weak bleach solution and drying with compressed air. After reading that article, I'm concerned that might not be sufficient. Is chlorhexidine available over the counter in the US?
--
ArtSomething to consider if you've had an infection is to fully sterilize the valve before using it again. Remove it and boil the whole thing for 20 minutes or so. Stainless steel Pee valves work better in that regard, but they have mostly bene replaced with Delrin, and I suspect it is harder to effectively sterilize just by flushing the valve with vinegar, alcohol, etc.
It's also a major reason not to seal the valve to your suit with something permanent like Aquaseal.
Slüdge
10-19-2011, 07:48 AM
In US English, that is alcohol, and vinegar. :-) Not what we call Meth here.
Great. You tell us that AFTER I've been arrested.
kwinter
10-19-2011, 07:51 AM
In US English, that is alcohol, and vinegar. :-) Not what we call Meth here.
Anyone have a good recipe? How much of each? I've been using a bleach solution since getting hit with a UTI a couple of years ago, but maybe this is better.
Anyone have a good recipe? How much of each? I've been using a bleach solution since getting hit with a UTI a couple of years ago, but maybe this is better.
The most common mix is 50/50. Try to get at least the 70% alcohol, some in drugstores is only 50%.
Art Greenberg
10-19-2011, 09:20 AM
Something to consider if you've had an infection is to fully sterilize the valve before using it again. Remove it and boil the whole thing for 20 minutes or so. Stainless steel Pee valves work better in that regard, but they have mostly bene replaced with Delrin, and I suspect it is harder to effectively sterilize just by flushing the valve with vinegar, alcohol, etc.
It's also a major reason not to seal the valve to your suit with something permanent like Aquaseal.
I can remove the valve ... but its delrin. A soak in an antiseptic would be OK, I suppose. I have not had any issues since I started being methodical about rinsing out the entire system with a bleach solution every day. But I'm thinking something that is known to help with pseudomonas would be better, just because that pathogen was specifically identified in my most recent case (now several years ago). I could even see a ritual using several solutions in sequence, drying in between. But I don't know if anything that radical is justified.
--
Art
I can remove the valve ... but its delrin. A soak in an antiseptic would be OK, I suppose. I have not had any issues since I started being methodical about rinsing out the entire system with a bleach solution every day. But I'm thinking something that is known to help with pseudomonas would be better, just because that pathogen was specifically identified in my most recent case (now several years ago). I could even see a ritual using several solutions in sequence, drying in between. But I don't know if anything that radical is justified.
--
Art
None of the UTI bacteria are that hard to kill outside of a body. Ear beer, bleach solution, and chlorhexidine are all strong enough.
MORGAN
10-19-2011, 09:28 AM
The most common mix is 50/50. Try to get at least the 70% alcohol, some in drugstores is only 50%.
Most drugstores have isopropyl alcohol in 50% and 70%; some have 91% as well. I use the 91% mixed 50/50 with white vinegar for my ears.
Most drugstores have isopropyl alcohol in 50% and 70%; some have 91% as well. I use the 91% mixed 50/50 with white vinegar for my ears.
I agree, get the strongest available. 70% is easier to find than 91%, but I only use 91% myself, and that is just for my ears. I use chlorhexidine for my P-valve.
DA Aquamaster
10-19-2011, 03:08 PM
The most common mix is 50/50. Try to get at least the 70% alcohol, some in drugstores is only 50%.90% is available in drugstores if you look for it. I'll try to recollect what chain store I get it in.
DrHarry
10-19-2011, 03:14 PM
Yes sorry we do have the other meth here too...wouldn't recommend it for diving!
We call it methylated spirits here...get it from the hardware store and use it for Trangier stoves, cleaning stuff etc. It is high grade ethanol with something very unsavoury added to stop people drinking it. It used to be methanol but too many people went blind from drinking it so I think they took that out.
75/25 meths /vinegar does the trick and is more than enough to prevent all these problems. It works because the alcohol dries out the tubing (pseudomonas lives in warm moist places and dislikes the acid).
Since I wrote that article I have seen several more cases and heard about many others. I always take some norfloxacin antibiotic on remote trips now (or ciprofloxacin) because standard UTI antibiotics do not work. You need to tell your doc it may be pseudomonas, otherwise you'll receive an ineffective antibiotic. Not surprisingly, most doctors will not be familiar with this condition.
... I always take some norfloxacin antibiotic on remote trips now (or ciprofloxacin) because standard UTI antibiotics do not work. You need to tell your doc it may be pseudomonas, otherwise you'll receive an ineffective antibiotic. Not surprisingly, most doctors will not be familiar with this condition.
Ooh! I guess I was just lucky that Dr Bass happened to have Cipro with her!
kwinter
10-19-2011, 09:34 PM
Yup. Since my incident, I keep some Cipro in my kit.
lamont
12-14-2011, 12:08 AM
Had a similar incident in MX. Didn't realize my p-valve was closed, tried to use it, felt the pressure, then stopped, knew something was wrong, but was nearly out of the cave anyway. On ascent, though, expansion of the gas bubble attempted to reinflate my bladder. What resulted was a fairly nasty bladder/kidney infection. Resolved in about a week with Cipro.
I'm a guy so I never thought about UTIs/bladder infections before that happened, never occurred to me...
decostanza
12-14-2011, 05:25 AM
Thanks for posting the link to the paper listed a few pages back...missed this initially.
Don
huxley
12-14-2011, 09:00 AM
None of the UTI bacteria are that hard to kill outside of a body. Ear beer, bleach solution, and chlorhexidine are all strong enough.
just make sure you dont use it as ear beer after the valve flush, that would give a painfull infection.
that's the same mix i use always have a bottle handy. Am wondering how well the rubber membrane takes the alcohol and if its better to flush with water after the desinfection?
just make sure you dont use it as ear beer after the valve flush, that would give a painfull infection.
that's the same mix i use always have a bottle handy. Am wondering how well the rubber membrane takes the alcohol and if its better to flush with water after the desinfection?
It wouldn't hurt. I personally use chlorhexidine. It is easier on rubber.
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