Cave diving hall of fame

[Kelly Jessop]

If there was a hall of fame for cave diving,what attributes would you say are important for this candidate. What character point(s) would you say would make the renaissance cave diver

[jlcdvr]

Kelly,
Good idea but I think you need an all of the above option. To get in the hall of fame you need to excell in several if not all categories. Just my opinion.
Joel

[Kevin Carlisle]

Everything you mentioned with the exception of creating gear. Bonus points to them if they did though.

[Kelly Jessop]

Kelly,
Good idea but I think you need an all of the above option. To get in the hall of fame you need to excell in several if not all categories. Just my opinion.
Joel

The poll is set up where you can pick as many options as you want,so all of the above is 7 mouse clicks away

[Kelly Jessop]

Everything you mentioned with the exception of creating gear. Bonus points to them if they did though.

You know gear creation and innovation is still very active. I have seen some pretty awesome things come out in the last few years,and I don't mean large manufacturers,but home cobbled things. Cave diving/divers have been the center of innovation that the open water industry benefits from,and this is alive and well.

[JerseyJersey]

I agree combinations of items set some divers above the rest. And many of the list items that divers accomplish go unknown by many because they are simply quiet about the things they do.

[Dsix36]

I agree combinations of items set some divers above the rest. And many of the list items that divers accomplish go unknown by many because they are simply quiet about the things they do.

Yes, I try to remain modest. It is difficult, but I do try. :smt102

[Greenwood_60]

Any of the above, but done in a safe manner. There were some very famous Cave Divers, that did some of those to the extreme... that have no business in a Hall of Fame.

I think this is a status that should be awarded after retirement.

[willgr1]

Any of the above, but done in a safe manner...


I agree with this. Working to improve safety and promote safe cave diving not only in the community, but in the individual's diving style should be considered above all.

[FW]

...I think this is a status that should be awarded after retirement.

:-D

[snakedoc]

Unfortunately, most of the famous cave divers that started in the late `80's and `90's were "juicin." Have you seen the guns on Rich? C'mon, man, that's not natural.

[RN]

Cave diving can be egocentric enough without adding to it.

[OFG-1]

You are missing the obvious qualities that make for a great cave diver.

1 - willingness to buy the beer
2 - ability to carry your scooter for you
3 - babe magnet
4 - 4 wheel drive truck, not some stupid Yaris
5 - buys your trimix for you
6 - ability to take ridicule and jokes from everybody else about diving with you
7 - looks good in speedo while posing with arms crossed in front of two scooters

[Squirrel Girl]

You are missing the obvious qualities that make for a great cave diver.

1 - willingness to buy the beer
2 - ability to carry your scooter for you
3 - babe magnet
4 - 4 wheel drive truck, not some stupid Yaris
5 - buys your trimix for you
6 - ability to take ridicule and jokes from everybody else about diving with you
7 - looks good in speedo while posing with arms crossed in front of two scooters

What!?!?! I'm a babe magnet? Who woulda thunk?

[OFG-1]

What!?!?! I'm a babe magnet? Who woulda thunk?

Please post picture of yourself in a speedo, arms crosssed, in front of two scooters.

[Gene Powell]

Any of the above, but done in a safe manner. There were some very famous Cave Divers, that did some of those to the extreme... that have no business in a Hall of Fame.

I think this is a status that should be awarded after retirement.

I guess that leaves Sheck out!

[Greenwood_60]

I guess that leaves Sheck out!

Which part? He died deep diving in a cave, not cave diving deep. Attempting 1000' is still stupid, but he was attempting to do it in the safest possible manner.

[Squirrel Girl]

Which part? He died deep diving in a cave, not cave diving deep. Attempting 1000' is still stupid, but he was attempting to do it in the safest possible manner.

Not counting using a rebreather.

But he didn't retire from cave diving. Not that I think anyone necessarily should if they're healthy.

[Greenwood_60]

Not counting using a rebreather.
Was uber deep diving on CC well enough understood in '94 to have been considered?


But he didn't retire from cave diving. Not that I think anyone necessarily should if they're healthy.
I see your point. I only meant that their cave diving days (or at least the days of doing what they are being inducted for) are over. I didn't really want to put "dead or retired".

[Squirrel Girl]

Was uber deep diving on CC well enough understood in '94 to have been considered?
Is uber deep diving, closed or open, well enough understood today?



I see your point. I only meant that their cave diving days (or at least the days of doing what they are being inducted for) are over. I didn't really want to put "dead or retired".
I can think of people who are alive and diving today to be inducted into a hall of fame. I mean, who is retired or dead today who wouldn't have been OK to induct the day before they retired or died?

Anyhoo, we had a similar "hero" thread not long back. Plus I agree with Rob. There are enough egos in cave diving already as it is.

[Greenwood_60]

Is uber deep diving, closed or open, well enough understood today?
Touché, but it is considered (or preferred?) by anyone planning crazy deep dives today. I don't know if anyone at the time would have though about going CC on a dive like that... that was my question.


I can think of people who are alive and diving today to be inducted into a hall of fame. I mean, who is retired or dead today who wouldn't have been OK to induct the day before they retired or died?

I agree, and that's my point. Some of them you don't know (at least publicly) how stupid they are, until it kills them. They wouldn't be inducted today, but would have been high on the list before they died. Take this as hypothetical, I have no intention of naming names... I have no first hand data of anything.

Ego wise, I agree... I think it can be done, but it would have to be called the "Safe Cave Diving Hall of Fame".

[Squirrel Girl]

Touché, but it is considered (or preferred?) by anyone planning crazy deep dives today. I don't know if anyone at the time would have though about going CC on a dive like that... that was my question.

He'd been offered to use a Cis-Lunar and be fully trained on it, and he chose not to.


I agree, and that's my point. Some of them you don't know (at least publicly) how stupid they are, until it kills them. They wouldn't be inducted today, but would have been high on the list before they died. Take this as hypothetical, I have no intention of naming names... I have no first hand data of anything.

Ego wise, I agree... I think it can be done, but it would have to be called the "Safe Cave Diving Hall of Fame".

Cave diving is dangerous. Sometimes people die doing foolish things. Sometimes people die due to bad luck. Luck favors the prepared, but sometimes s*** happens. Sometimes some people take risks that others won't. What about someone who generally is very, very safe, but on rare occasions, pushes the envelope a little more? Compared to someone who pushes the envelope all the time?

Are astronauts all foolish and unsafe? Some of them have died in service. One can endlessly argue about NASA's safety protocol, but I would argue that astronauts are not unsafe, but engaging in a high risk endeavor.

[Greenwood_60]

He'd been offered to use a Cis-Lunar and be fully trained on it, and he chose not to.

Interesting. Of course in retrospect we can say he should have reconsidered... any idea his reasoning? Was it offered specifically for his deep attempts?


Cave diving is dangerous. Sometimes people die doing foolish things. Sometimes people die due to bad luck. Luck favors the prepared, but sometimes s*** happens. Sometimes some people take risks that others won't. What about someone who generally is very, very safe, but on rare occasions, pushes the envelope a little more? Compared to someone who pushes the envelope all the time?

I have no problem with people who decide to push the envelope... even regularly. As long as the due time, thought, and preparation is put in to making it as safe as possible. That is how we get safer protocols. People pushing HARD, and not cutting corners to do so, to achieve something never done before... regardless of if it kills them in the end.


Are astronauts all foolish and unsafe? Some of them have died in service. One can endlessly argue about NASA's safety protocol, but I would argue that astronauts are not unsafe, but engaging in a high risk endeavor.

I don't think you can compare astronauts to cave divers. We have the opportunity to know and control every aspect of our equipment. The complexity of their equipment puts that out of their scope. I imagine they have to have faith in their standards, protocols, and technologies. Equipment failures kill astronauts.

[Squirrel Girl]

Interesting. Of course in retrospect we can say he should have reconsidered... any idea his reasoning? Was it offered specifically for his deep attempts?
Yes. I wasn't part of the discussion, but I was told, by the person offering the equipment and training that he felt Sheck preferred to do things old school and low tech.


I don't think you can compare astronauts to cave divers. We have the opportunity to know and control every aspect of our equipment. The complexity of their equipment puts that out of their scope. I imagine they have to have faith in their standards, protocols, and technologies. Equipment failures kill astronauts. Yes, space travel is more complex and there is much more equipment must be trusted, but it's not a completely crazy analogy either.

I don't know how the insides of my regulator work (really). I get mine serviced fairly regularly and I have backups. But still. A catastrophic failure could occur and kill me. I could drive down the highway and my brakes go out and kill me. S*** happens.

I'm not saying there aren't people who take crazy risks while cave diving. Certainly there are, and some have died. But I also don't think that just because someone died while cave diving means they were crazy and unsafe.

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree with the sentiment to not convey hall of fame status on anyone until after their death or retirement.

Going one step further, it is also very wise to wait at least 10 years after their death or retirement before making them eligible for nomination into a hall of fame. The idea is sound in that it:

1. prevents people from "competing" to get in or get nominated (as few cave divers would actually retire for 10 years just to try to get in), and
2. it would prevent divers from being swept into a hall of fame on a wave of sentiment surrounding their death.

If someone still makes a strong impression on the cave diving community 10 years post retirement or 10 years following their death, then you can make a very credible case that they are worthy of a nomination based on their accomplishments alone - separate from community sympathy, grief, sentimentality, etc.

[skip]

5 years. 10 years is too long for human memory.

But I'd like to see an exception clause. or maybe a second category. There are living unretired cave divers who have achieved hall of fame status. No reason not to recognize them while they are living. Perhaps a "Fellow of Cave Diving" status like the Fellow status of the NSS? No need to be a member of any particular agency/organization.

skip

[JerseyJersey]

Many, if not most of the cave divers that would (could or should) be eligible to be recognized are not touted and/or proclaiming their accomplishments on a regular basis.

This means that many new divers have no idea who they are or what they accomplished and many of the older ones only know a small portion of what they accomplished. Most of this is known only by their peers, who may or may not out live them.

Waiting until they have passed, and then another 5 or ten years could cause many accompishments and history to pass with them. Or for this information to be known mostly by people who are no longer active in the dive community. Or to rely on memories of stories heard and passed down instead of fact.

I think living history such as the likes of Jim Fishback and others should be recognized while memories are fresh and recognition can be appreciated.

Not to belittle the achievment, but connecting Baptizing to Peacock was a great job, not a hall of fame accomplishment. Yet spending 25 years trying to connect other areas could very well be.

This is such a broad topic that without an outline of ideas for the awards discussion is pretty hard.

[OFG-1]

I think living history such as the likes of Jim Fishback and others should be recognized while memories are fresh and recognition can be appreciated.

I am not sure about putting Fishhead...er...Fishback in a hall of fame is appropriate, but, I will nominate him for the "One Old Tough Bastard" award with oak leaf clusters.

[JerseyJersey]

He may not be hall of fame material...... but if left till ten years after he is gone we may never know.......

[Cindy]

Personally I like the idea of having a hall of fame and including divers still out there diving. I'll tell you why> first it would give new divers living, breathing examples for them to follow. I know when I first saw people like Tom Mount, Lamar Hires, Tom Morris etc, etc swimming I paid attention to their technique and just admired the way they swim. I have had the good luck of diving with most of the "greats" of cave diving and found something useful or practical I could use in my own diving. A couple of them I budded into being my mentors. That is why new divers should be able to see the members of your hall of fame, so if they see them, they can learn from them.

[Kelly Jessop]

Personally I like the idea of having a hall of fame and including divers still out there diving. I'll tell you why> first it would give new divers living, breathing examples for them to follow. I know when I first saw people like Tom Mount, Lamar Hires, Tom Morris etc, etc swimming I paid attention to their technique and just admired the way they swim. I have had the good luck of diving with most of the "greats" of cave diving and found something useful or practical I could use in my own diving. A couple of them I budded into being my mentors. That is why new divers should be able to see the members of your hall of fame, so if they see them, they can learn from them.

Cindy you make some great points. The one fortunate part of this sport is the "greats",or experienced members are reachable by all level of cave divers,and they generally are available to share. The scary thing is we are losing some of these people to age,or lack of interest,and a huge segment of the cave diving knowledge base is disappearing with them.

[Cindy]

Your right Kelly, it's a change I have noticed also. Your idea for a hall of fame could just end up a bunch of unknown/useless names on a plaque someplace. Do it now, get people involved, maybe it could get people communicating, young and old divers. Part of this is the web, it moves us apart close at hand and joins us far apart. I'll give new divers one clue on where to see great "hall of fame" divers, look around, go to clean ups, go to step building events, go on a guided dive. Not one single one of us can't learn something from each other. By the way, have we been in the water together? I hear you have a mean modified flutter...:D