Razor2 coldwater

[gearhound]

As promised, here are a couple of pics of the Razor2 in cold water with steel tanks. The diver is using 15lbs of weight and hp100's. He changed the bungees to thicker ones because the ones that came with it were too thin and stretchy. Other than that, it worked quite well. He was quite happy with it. There wasn't a lot of air in the wing submerged. And it had lots of lift to keep him comfortable on the surface swim. The secret was to lie right on his back to get the lift totally under him.
He's still doing some tweaking, but that's sidemount!

[Tegg]

Those tanks are hanging pretty low. Does he plan on getting them to ride more on his sides?

[RAL]

Those tanks are hanging pretty low. Does he plan on getting them to ride more on his sides?

Might be the new Razor front mount system.......does he need a card for that?:smt002

RAL

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I don't suppose you can get some photos of someone using it with big steels and some stages eh?

[Skorpiov]

I'm going to get mine wet this weekend for the first time. If I get it trimmed, (I'm taking both alums and steel 108's), I'll take pics. If I dont look like a dork, I'll post em up here.

But the water is going to be around 92 Deg. May be a short photo shoot in a 5M.

[Slüdge]

Those tanks are hanging pretty low. Does he plan on getting them to ride more on his sides?

Yeah. I wear my stages (when backmounting) higher than that.

[gearhound]

Boys, give him a chance! It was his second sidemount dive, and second in this rig. All in all, I think he did quite well. And I've seen how high the back ends of the stages get on some of you backmounters :)

[Skorpiov]

I just realized how my post may have sounded. I didnt mean to imply he looked like a dork. I'm concerned that most of the time I do, and dont want you all to see that side of me until you meet me and like me. By then you'll all know I'm generally a... well, a dork. At least that what my 19 y/o daughter tells me regularly.

Heck I've never put on sidemount. This weekend will be my first attempt, hence my worry about looking stupid. I was told once I look like a volkswagon in a wetsuit. I've seen the pictures and its not far off... but I swim pretty... for a VW.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

...but I swim pretty... for a VW.

From here on known as Schwimmwagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Schwimmwagen)

[Skorpiov]

I'm honored! LOL

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/VW_Schwimmwagen_Typ_166_-_Heck.jpg/800px-VW_Schwimmwagen_Typ_166_-_Heck.jpg

[scoupland]

I recently got a Razor SM system and tried it out for the first time last weekend at Madison Blue, Ginnie, and Little River. I have been using a Nomad up to this point. I dive with HP 133s, no additional weights, and a crushed neoprene dry suit. The wing had plenty of lift for my tanks and maintained a low profile at all times. I was afraid I would look like a turtle when I put air in the wing but this didn't happen. I found a tendency for the tanks to sit low. I moved the back D-rings higher and I will have to replace the bungee that holds the valves. The manual states a heavier bungee will be needed with heavy steels and that is correct. Apart from an AL 40 O2 bottle I carrying to the sign I haven't tried it with stages bottles. I am still working on coinfiguring it before I will add any stages. So far, I am very pleased with it.

[Slüdge]

I dive with HP 133s

Okay, now y'all are just messin' with me...

[KevinCC007]

If he said Faber DOT E-13488 specification 133 cubic foot tanks, would that be better?

That's messing with you. ;')

[scoupland]

Kevin is correct regarding the stamp on the tanks. They are about equivalent to LP108s. Overkill you ask?--possibly. But, I am 6'7", 255lbs, so I can handle the size. I bought them many years ago in fear that I would be a gas hog, but my SAC rate is usually around .3-.4.

[mwenner]

You're killing me! :)


,... but my SAC rate is usually around .3-.4.

[Tegg]

Kevin is correct regarding the stamp on the tanks. They are about equivalent to LP108s. Overkill you ask?--possibly. But, I am 6'7", 255lbs, so I can handle the size. I bought them many years ago in fear that I would be a gas hog, but my SAC rate is usually around .3-.4.

.3 huh?

[Webmaster]

.3 huh?

That's because he's so tall he kicks once and covers 30 feet.

[FW]

IIRC, Scott had pretty good air consumption in MX, but .3 is pretty hard to attain in a real cave dive. I have been as low as .25, but that was in OW, in the tropics, and only taking pictures.

[DA Aquamaster]

But, I am 6'7", 255lbs, so I can handle the size. I bought them many years ago in fear that I would be a gas hog, but my SAC rate is usually around .3-.4.I'd love to see the lab work on your CO2 levels. You can't lower your SAC that far on the actual working/swimming portion of a dive without retaining CO2.

[scoupland]

I use the SAC rate calculator in the V-planner dive log that works with my Liquivision. Given the reactions I must be doing something wrong--that's good to know. I'll work on figuring it out.

[Mark Vlahos]

I use the SAC rate calculator in the V-planner dive log that works with my Liquivision. Given the reactions I must be doing something wrong--that's good to know. I'll work on figuring it out.

If you treat the gas supply as one large volume like you would with traditional doubles, even though with side mount you have two discrete tanks, you might want to click the check box for double cylinders. That would take your SAC rate from a remarkable .3 to a more expected .6, especially when you figure in your body size.

[LCF]

I don't know -- I'm 5'4" and 115 lbs, and my SAC rate runs about .33 during the swimming portion of a cave dive (in no flow). I have dived with a 6' man, and we turned the dive on MY gas. But he darned near LIVES in the caves.

[scoupland]

Thanks Mark for the suggestion. I made the correction you suggested in the V-planner software and looked at my last 6 dives at Little River, Ginnie, P3, and Madison Blue. My SAC rate varied from .5 to .57. I will have to try some other software and see if it comes out the same.

[JCGoodwin]

Not had the opportunity to dive with a Razor II as of yet but interested in the larger cylinders / and stages myself.
I own a clone and have attempted to purchase a wing but apparently not available to those who did not purchase one from DSS or Steve.
No bother I will continue to dive my Nomad or retro another wing to it.

Dive #2 SM not looking to bad just need some more tweaking / adjustment it goes with the territory.
I have a set of tanks that hang in the same manor irritatingly low especially with cave fills.
I do not have the same issues with LP 85's and others so I opted to stop using them for SM.
A little tweak would fix it but then I would be undoing every time I switched back, possible but a pain.

We all have favorite ways to rig our SM but we all have tried new tanks, etc. it is a work in progress as well as a evolving means to an end. What ever it takes to get where we wish to go.

JCG

[TobinGeorge]

Not had the opportunity to dive with a Razor II as of yet but interested in the larger cylinders / and stages myself.

I own a clone and have attempted to purchase a wing but apparently not available to those who did not purchase one from DSS or Steve.

This simply untrue. We offer the Razor Bat wing as a separate item. Your "clone" harness may not provide the same easy mounting as a genuine Razor2, but the wings are available.

Tobin

[CaveBuddy95]

This simply untrue. We offer the Razor Bat wing as a separate item. Your "clone" harness may not provide the same easy mounting as a genuine Razor2, but the wings are available.

Tobin

+1

:)

[break4]

I own a clone and have attempted to purchase a wing but apparently not available to those who did not purchase one from DSS or Steve.
No bother I will continue to dive my Nomad or retro another wing to it.


This is really complete rubish.
We and DSS are selling all the parts seperately. If you buy the wing, you get the wing triglide you will need to fit it to the Razor 1 or in your case a clone for free along with the order.
As well you will get free support if needed, how to make it working with the Razor 1 or in your case a clone.

Cheers
HP Hartmann
Go Side Mount

[rjack]

Those tanks are hanging pretty low. Does he plan on getting them to ride more on his sides?

I am having the same issue to some extent with my Razor and hp100s. The cord on my boltsnaps is only about 1" long and the rear D-rings are about as far back as I can get them. Its almost like I need to be wider across my torso so there's more distance between the Dring on the top/back of my hip and the cylinder strap (I'm using worm clamps on the cylinders). I have a 32" waist so there's not much horizontal distance across my back to move the Dring medially. (The same Dring the OP has his cylinders clipped to which also looks to be fairly high on his hip almost on his back). I suppose I could shorten up the 1" cord loop the boltsnap is connecting to the worm clam with. And possibly use smaller bold snaps. But then the issue becomes how to fit my dry gloved hand between the tail of the cylinder and my body.

Other ideas welcome.

[jcook]

Add a buttplate and try a different type of bungee loop, like on the 'Dillo. The type of bungee used on the Razor works well with AL80's but it cannot keep it tight enough against your body as the 'Dillo type routing can with steels. It is what I did with my Razor, my steels work great with it now. Plus when I switch between my Nomad JT and my Razor, I don't have to touch anything on my tanks.

Tobin I am not bashing your product, so please don't take it that way. I know you dive steels with it, but let's be honest you have more surface area on your waist to put d-rings on. :rollguy

[rjack]

I already upsized the bungie to 5/16". The valves are tight in a manner which Steve B dives them - there's no flop or room up there. But to me they are not like most of the NFL folks are sidemounting. Looking at how the MX guys are diving the razor it sure seems to me that the AL80 tanks are riding considerably further forward and under the armpit vs how many (most?) of the NFL divers are diving lp steels which are positioned higher and further back <behind> the armpit. Its actually somewhat difficult to get the tanks high and back behind the armpit in the Razor (at least mine) as the bungie wants to pull the valve forward since ultimately its clipped off to the chest dring. I could lower the chest D-rings on my chest but they can only go so low before the tri-glide is in pinching my arm. They still have to be somewhat forward to be chest drings.

This is all somewhat pendantic since we are using Razors for sumps which are fairly spacious and you could backmount if you could get the darn tanks through the dry sections.

[JamesK]

I am having the same issue to some extent with my Razor and hp100s. The cord on my boltsnaps is only about 1" long and the rear D-rings are about as far back as I can get them. Its almost like I need to be wider across my torso so there's more distance between the Dring on the top/back of my hip and the cylinder strap (I'm using worm clamps on the cylinders). I have a 32" waist so there's not much horizontal distance across my back to move the Dring medially. (The same Dring the OP has his cylinders clipped to which also looks to be fairly high on his hip almost on his back). I suppose I could shorten up the 1" cord loop the boltsnap is connecting to the worm clam with. And possibly use smaller bold snaps. But then the issue becomes how to fit my dry gloved hand between the tail of the cylinder and my body.

Other ideas welcome.

I have a 32" waist as well, and ran in to the same problem, except with AL80's. For me it was real bad because they hung to low full, and the to high as they emptied. I could not get the dring back far enough and not make the wing bubble up or the front d rings far enough forward and still keep my buckle. My solution was to use bungee cord to attach the bolt snap under the worm clamp. I have the bungee where it leaves no leash. When I need to get my hands in, the bungee is able to stretch enough to get my hand in. Works good for me now. I use ring bungees on the tops of the tanks.

[rjack]

I have a 32" waist as well, and ran in to the same problem, except with AL80's. For me it was real bad because they hung to low full, and the to high as they emptied. I could not get the dring back far enough and not make the wing bubble up or the front d rings far enough forward and still keep my buckle. My solution was to use bungee cord to attach the bolt snap under the worm clamp. I have the bungee where it leaves no leash. When I need to get my hands in, the bungee is able to stretch enough to get my hand in. Works good for me now. I use ring bungees on the tops of the tanks.

Awesome thanks for the tip! I will give the worm clamp tail bungie a try. I even have some leftover bungie I trimmed off the neck piece.

[JamesK]

No problem. You might have to use a thicker bungee then I do with the steels, but who knows. Hope it works.

[rjack]

I will try the 1/4" and see how it goes. 5/16" is vastly thicker so if it requires that it may not work.

In the process I think I am going to move the worm clamps up the tanks (towards the valve) to effectively drag the cylinders backwards more. I am not sure how well that will work to get the crowns to ride higher along my sides with the valve more behind the arm instead of below. But I'm willing to try it.

[rongoodman]

Has anyone tried using the Razor with the DSS or Golem buttplate with steel tanks? I've done all my diving with mine so far in Mexico with Al80s, but I want to set up another harness for diving here in the NE, with drysuit, heavier underwear, and steel tanks(LP85s to start with).

[jcook]

Has anyone tried using the Razor with the DSS or Golem buttplate with steel tanks? I've done all my diving with mine so far in Mexico with Al80s, but I want to set up another harness for diving here in the NE, with drysuit, heavier underwear, and steel tanks(LP85s to start with).

Yes, dove it with LP95's. I am getting some LP85's next weekend, so I will have to get back to you on that. I am using it with the Z-wing though, not the Razor 2.

[JamesK]

Yes, dove it with LP95's. I am getting some LP85's next weekend, so I will have to get back to you on that. I am using it with the Z-wing though, not the Razor 2.

Which Z Wing? I have the 20lb wing and have a DR butt plate on the way for my harness. I plan on getting the 55lb wing for steels.

[rongoodman]

Yes, dove it with LP95's. I am getting some LP85's next weekend, so I will have to get back to you on that. I am using it with the Z-wing though, not the Razor 2.

Which buttplate are you using? If you Golem, how did you attach it?

[jcook]

The 20lb z-wing, it worked fine but was completely pumped up. So if you plan on carrying a stage or deco bottle I would get the bigger wing (The DSS one, not the z-wing). I just wanted something small and streamlined so it would feel like I had nothing on in the water.

I used it with a DR nomad buttplate, since I didn't want to change leash lengths when I went from my JT to the Razor. Greenwood_60 has a really good way of doing it with a 'Dillo buttplate. It is under the sidemount forum, can't remember the thread name though.

[rongoodman]

OK, thanks. I found the picture I think you're referring too and it looks like what I was going to try. I have the Razor II wing, so flotation shouldn't be an issue.

[jcook]

You will want to change your bungee system for steels though, the one that comes with the razor sucks. It pulls the tanks too far forward and definitely screws with proper streamlining.

[JamesK]

The 20lb z-wing, it worked fine but was completely pumped up. So if you plan on carrying a stage or deco bottle I would get the bigger wing (The DSS one, not the z-wing). I just wanted something small and streamlined so it would feel like I had nothing on in the water.

I used it with a DR nomad buttplate, since I didn't want to change leash lengths when I went from my JT to the Razor. Greenwood_60 has a really good way of doing it with a 'Dillo buttplate. It is under the sidemount forum, can't remember the thread name though.

Thanks. I figured it would be quite a bit for a 20lber to handle. Why do you recommend the DSS over the UTD wing?

[jcook]

The Z-wing plus isn't as well thought-out as the DSS Bat wing. The UTD wing just looks like an afterthought to the original z-wing's lack of lift. I will say I don't like or feel the secondary bladder in the BAT wing is necessary for FL cave diving, but it was designed for mexico and no drysuits or steels.

[JamesK]

Thanks Jordan. I appreciate and respect your opinion. Disregard the rest of what was in this post. I am an idiot and had a senior moment.

[Skorpiov]

I built a "Razor" and am using the 55lb Z-Plus UTD Wing and just added the DiveRite Tech Butt plate to use with my 108 steels. It winds up being about perfect. I made a few more tweeks last week and spent some time in the pool. I can hold my arms and legs all straight outstretched and hover without finning at all. I can tuck and rotate to any position and hold it and I'm really happy with it. I am taking an SMS 100 and some 85's, 95's and the 108s to the quarry this weekend and hope to get a camera to get some video of how they all ride on both harnesses.

I will post it as long as I look really cool... LOL

[JamesK]

well make sure you look really cool! I would love to see the pics of your UTD rig.

[MICHAL]

Hi,
Razor2 , drysuit + steel tanks ; video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcJgJJrFz-4&feature=player_embedded

Michal

[jcook]

Hi,
Razor2 , drysuit + steel tanks ; video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcJgJJrFz-4&feature=player_embedded

Michal

I thought this was the sidemount forum? Not the front mount with horrible trim forum. Seriously that video was awful.

[JamesK]

I thought this was the sidemount forum? Not the front mount with horrible trim forum. Seriously that video was awful.

I could not tell on the trim as the camera man kept moving around so much that I could not figure out was top or bottom. Gave me vertigo. The bottles did look WAY to low to me though.

[Greenwood_60]

Not sure how neutral steel 72s (or neutral 85s) change anything about the lift capacity of the Razor. More marketing smoke and mirrors. Come on guys.

[rjack]

With this type of harness and bungie the bottles just don't ride behind the arms like FL cave divers might expect. The bungie can be reconfigured a bit to shift the bottles back and behind the arms more. But using the bungie as intended, the cylinders ride forward and lower. It can't really be any other way with the bungie wrapped around the valve post and clipped off to the chest drings. For UK sidemounting cavers the bottle clips & ride would be much more familar.

[Maureen]

I am probably going to regret this, but here it goes anyway. The BAT wing has dual bladders each with 40 lbs of lift. Without the back plate and manifold how much lift do you really think you need? I dove back mounted steel ninety fives and carried 2 stages with never more than a 45lb wing. I have used the razor with Faber 95's, Faber 85's, and aluminium tanks. All while carrying a stage and had no problems with lift. And "horrible" trim- I don't think too many people on this forum have better diving skills than Steve. The system is different than the Florida sidemount rigs but it works just fine.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Not everyone is diving in Canada, where the exposure protection is so bouyant.


When I was diving HP130s(worthingtons), 45lbs of lift just didn't cut it deeper than 110' or so, and forget about stages.

[NEON]

Not everyone is diving in Canada, where the exposure protection is so bouyant.


When I was diving HP130s(worthingtons), 45lbs of lift just didn't cut it deeper than 110' or so, and forget about stages.

Not too many are diving heavy steels wet either... Just saying... :-)

[Greenwood_60]

I'm diving PST 104s wet... and those are my floaty tanks :)

It seems to be a bit of a problem to me to count on supplemental buoyancy. Dry or wet, redundant or not, your wing needs to float you without help. The redundant bladder does nothing if losing you drysuit flotation causes you to be negative.

40 + 40 = 40 and 40 < 50 < 60

[rjack]

Not everyone is diving in Canada, where the exposure protection is so bouyant.


When I was diving HP130s(worthingtons), 45lbs of lift just didn't cut it deeper than 110' or so, and forget about stages.

Wetsuit?
260cf of gas only weighs about 20lbs.

[gearhound]

Greenwood,
I believe that your opinion on the Hollis SMS50 is that it is a "slick" unit that you have to check out. It's got 25 pounds of lift. It's a copy of the UTD wing which has it's origins rooted in the Razor harness. So why so negative on the Razor with 45 pounds of lift? It's even made in America.

As for Steve's diving abilities, I believe he has his name on a few maps and is still exploring new caves. His video demonstrating skills has over 66,000 hits. And the last time I was in Mexico, the majority of people were diving the Razor or a clone. Plus a lot of people are taking training from him. So I think its obvious that there are some out there that think Steve knows what he's doing. Heck, he even has equipment manufacturers working with him.

Not everyone is diving heavy steels wet. Some of you seem to think that everyone needs to drive around in a semi truck. But, perhaps, some of us might have a lot more fun driving around in a sports car.

[a64pilot]

When I was diving HP130s(worthingtons), 45lbs of lift just didn't cut it deeper than 110' or so, and forget about stages.

That is exactly where I am right now with my SM-100, I have procured a couple of LP 108's to try, don't know how they will help, did you go to smaller tanks? My 100's are fine of course
I'm dry BTW, well mostly dry anyway, or should I say usually dry?

[Greenwood_60]

Greenwood,
I believe that your opinion on the Hollis SMS50 is that it is a "slick" unit that you have to check out. It's got 25 pounds of lift. It's a copy of the UTD wing which has it's origins rooted in the Razor harness. So why so negative on the Razor with 45 pounds of lift? It's even made in America.

No one is claiming they can use the SMS50 with heavy steel tanks. I don't take issue with the Razor harness or the batwing, just the marketing tactics. 45 lbs of lift is marginal or inadequate for some configurations. Period.

You also don't see anyone complaining that there are 50 different versions of the backplate, or 100 different clockwise twist-on backup lights.

Everything takes inspiration from everything that came before it. To not do so would be insane and counterproductive.

How long does it take to go from a back plate to http://www.scubatoys.com/store/DIR/pics/OXYTravelBackplate.jpg to a Razor style plate?

Was the UTD wing out before or after the Batwing? (Serious, no rhetorical question.)

[gearhound]

UTD came out with their product after Steve trained two of their instructors in the Razor. Their harness looks amazingly similar.
As I understand it, Tobin sent Steve a wing and Steve tested it for a year before it came out. I know, because I was trying to buy one from DSS before one of my trips.
The Razor is marketed as a dual bladder wing with 45 pounds of lift. What you choose to do with that lift is your business.

[JamesK]

Oh please don't get this in to a Hollis vs UTD vs Batwing vs the chicken vs the egg vs the world thread.

Everyone of the products has been made to capture a portion of the market. I absolutely love my UTD Z wing (20lbs), but know it is limited. I don't care what came first, or what it was modeled after etc. That BATwing may or may not work with the configuration you dive in, just like other configurations may or may not.

As for the video, yes the tanks looked like they hung way low to my SM novice eyes. However, changing the bungees would probably fix that. The system still worked with the tanks he was using. I don't know if anyone has ever advocated using this system with PST104's and 4 stages. I would never doubt Steve's skills, he is a phenomenal diver IMO. His sytem just might not be the be all end all to suit all your diving needs.

[rjack]

. I don't know if anyone has ever advocated using this system with PST104's and 4 stages.

Assuming you wouldn't be so foolish to try to dive these tanks with a wetsuit...

The wing would have enough lift but it'll stick up so high off your butt you might as well have those 104s on your back.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Assuming you wouldn't be so foolish to try to dive these tanks with a wetsuit...


In a wetsuit, I couldn't get 45lbs of lift to keep me from being slightly negative at 120' in freshwater with just HP130s(worthingtons). Forget one, or four, stage(s).

[JamesK]

Assuming you wouldn't be so foolish to try to dive these tanks with a wetsuit...

The wing would have enough lift but it'll stick up so high off your butt you might as well have those 104s on your back.

I hope I would not be that foolish either. I was just trying to make a point.

[rjack]

I hope I would not be that foolish either. I was just trying to make a point.

I know.
I have tried it with hp100s and 2 al80 stages all with nitrox in freshwater. It was do-able but without interior gussets in the wing it just ballons up so it definitely not lean and mean. For my primary purpose its not a big deal.

[nwbrewer]

I know.
I have tried it with hp100s and 2 al80 stages all with nitrox in freshwater. It was do-able but without interior gussets in the wing it just ballons up so it definitely not lean and mean. For my primary purpose its not a big deal.

It was rather balloon like. But it didn't look all that bad.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x264/jdvirnig/Balloon.jpg

[rjack]

Its almost as thick as a backmount tank.

[Skorpiov]

OK, so in the beginning of this thread, I had never dived Sidemount. Somewhere in the middle I bragged that I can big dive steel tanks with my harness and a cold water exposure suit. Here is a pic. I did since replace the bungies on the front as the tanks were hanging a little low in the front. The biggest problem I have is that my man-boobs push the 108's diameter way out. I cant get them tucked quite as nicely as the 85's. Not sure what to do about that other than a sports bra in a manly color.

This is the Z+ wing 55lbs lift and a 7mm suit and no additional weight. I do have some video with the 108's too, but the camera man has a serious ADD problem and its less of me and more of the surroundings. I got no video of the 85's but they were a snap. Also never got the SMS100 wet... yet.

[Skorpiov]

Here is some of the ADD video. This is in 25' in a quarry, 56 degF, 7mm wetsuit, Worthington 108's wearing a Bonediver harness and UTD Z plus wing with a diverite Tech Buttplate. I can swim them through the windows of the boat that my belly barely makes it through. Again apologies for the videography.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3RAPjMyLA

[Greenwood_60]

Only thing I see in the video is your tanks look like they are way too far forward. I would raise the clamp up the tank 6" or so, and probably shorted your bungees as well. Tanks moving back is going to mess up your trim... you will have to sort that out after you get the tanks moved.

Otherwise, looks good to me.

Oh yeah, fire your camera man. lol.

[Skorpiov]

You're right about the tanks being forward and the trim issue. When I move the tanks back, I am way feet heavy. This was my compromise. I'm open to suggestyuns. The 85's I do pull way back. and added 3 lbs to my tail.

The 108s are just really big.

[rjack]

You're right about the tanks being forward and the trim issue. When I move the tanks back, I am way feet heavy. This was my compromise. I'm open to suggestyuns. The 85's I do pull way back. and added 3 lbs to my tail.

The 108s are just really big.

Are you able to move some weight from your waist to up high on your harness? Like up by your shoulder blades.

[Greenwood_60]

...move some weight...up by your shoulder blades.

That's what I did. I spent a bunch of dives getting my rig all worked out, adjusting everything I could. Then once there was nothing else to "fix", and no further modifications to make for trim adjustment, I put a 2 lbs weight just below the shoulder plate. The tanks being in the correct position (IMO) is very important. Then again, I started my evolution to SM with listening to the ADM/Armadillo guys rant about Side Mount vs Stage Mount diving, it kinda wore off on me.