GIS Applications- Surveys & Cartography

[Wendy Thurman]

I'm becoming more and more interested in surveying and mapping though I'm quick to admit I haven't any experience at it. I'd be curious to hear from those of you who are experienced as to whether or not GIS systems knowledge would come in handy. A class will be offered this fall in Introduction to GIS and I've been thinking of taking it. Here's a description of the class:

This course introduces the concepts and components of a geographic information system (GIS). It also teaches the essential skills of spatial data management, analysis, and visualization through the use of the ArcGIS software package. Upon completion of this course, students understand the fundamental concepts of a GIS including spatial data models, spatial analysis, and cartographic principles. They also gain hands-on training in spatial data collection, editing, transformation, and mapping, as well as spatial analysis operations such as location-based query, address geocoding, terrain and watershed analysis, spatial interpolation, best site selection, least cost path delineation, and a number of other GIS modeling techniques.

While the sociological aspects of GIS may not be applicable, it seems the general principles might. Thoughts?

[jlillest]

In short, heck yeah!

If money is not an issue, then it doesn't hurt to take the class to help with odds and ends of understanding survey data and how they relate to the land surface and the things around the caves, though it's applicability to actually surveying and mapping caves is minimal. The way we survey and map caves is quick and dirty and is designed to require the least amount of effort to understand somewhat accurate reductions of the cave. Ask a civil engineer about surveying and they'll probably scoff at the way we do things, but the fact of the matter is that it works and is good enough for what we want to get out of it.

GIS uses many datasets and one of those can be cave survey data. It looks like you're using ArcView for the class which is a great GIS software package, but unfortunately is rather pricey for those of us not doing GIS professionally. Fortunately, there are many other powerful GIS sps that are cheap/free like GRASS and QGIS.

If GIS is what you want to learn, the definitely take the class, but if you are simply wanting to learn to survey caves (dry or wet) then a survey class from ADM, Poucher, the CDS Workshop, etc may be what you're looking for.

I don't think you can go wrong with the class, so definitely keep it on the list of things to consider.

-Jon

[Kelly Jessop]

NFSA is having a workshop Aug 20th,and there will be an intro to surveying class

[Wendy Thurman]

NFSA is having a workshop Aug 20th,and there will be an intro to surveying class

I'll definitely sign up for that. I'll check the NFSA website. I'm not sure about the GIS class yet- it's expensive but may prove to be worthwhile from a cartography perspective.

[Attchoum]

I believe that you will learn something way too precise to what we use or require.

I close a loop of over 1700 foots a week ago with a error of around 10 feet. I compare my data with a other survey of the same loop and the other have a mistake of around 155 feet. Still, there data was consider good enough for cave purpose.

I dont think you need that, but the knowledge is never lost.
I will do the class if it would be available in Mexico...

[mpoucher]

GIS is more about data behind a map and how to build the features to relate the data to a map. The course will be more focused on how to take that data, analyze it and show it on a map. If you want to learn how to survey and make a cave map, I doubt it will teach you much, but will show you how to start building and analyzing spatial data.

John Burge book "Basic Underwater Cave Surveying" is a great source for how to survey underwater and is avaialble from the NSSCDS, NSS, Speleobooks, etc.

[Wendy Thurman]

I've got Burges's book as well as On Station. I think some practical experience would be helpful before I decide on the class- it's a recurring university offering so there's no time pressure. I can see where it would be extremely valuable if one were working with watersheds and recharge rates, etc but for straight mapping, maybe not so valuable. A cartography class would probably better serve my interests (though none is offered, just the GIS class).

[rchrds]

GIS is VERY applicable to the final steps of map building, but more useful in relating the final cave map to the features around it. Most folks don't get to using GIS until they have been mapping for a while, as it can be just as involved as learning to make the cave maps in the first place. The real question with an intro to GIS class is what software are they focusing on, and how in-depth to they plan to get in the class? You might get more out of working with people who are doing cave related GIS and helping or learning that way, though admittedly, there are not that many people really using GIS to its full potential. GIS will likely confuse your early efforts to build a cave map, as you will suddenly have a very detailed knowledge of certain aspects that just don't matter that much in beginning cave maps, when you should be concentrating on the mechanics of accurate data collection, and then learning the two pieces of software required to make your map, which can also be very involved. (Your processing piece: Walls, Compass, or Winkarst; and your drawing piece: Illustrator or...dang, I forgot the name of the free version. Anyway, get yourself on some survey trips, learn the mechanics, and have fun! :)

jason

[cavemark]

Very Valuable!

I have found that if I have been introduced to something in a class like that, even if I don't remember the exact procedure for a specific piece of software, I can figure out how to do it using another or find the resources to do it by hand.

I get data from surveyors in several different datum that I have to coordinate with data from SWFWMD, USGS, FEMA and the State of Florida. I had been using a very inexpensive program called Global Mapper www.globalmapper.com (http://www.globalmapper.com/) but have since moved to Civil 3D by Autodesk. I also had to download a free trial version of the ESRI software to extract some proprietary data for use in the Autodesk software (or Global Mapper). I have had to self-teach to come up to speed on what can be learned in that course.

For instance: For a drainage analysis I was given a survey done in NAD83, NGVD29 that had 5 topo points, on a 15,000sf piece of property, and metes and bouds starting from a nearby section corner. Using Data from SWFWMD (NAD83/HARN-FL-West and NAVD88), FEMA (NAD83 and NGVD29) and Citrus County (NAD83) I was able to generate a high resolution Contour Map.

Tons of data is becoming available online, for free, to use for accurate mapping with the right tools and knowledge. I would take the class.

[frederjj]

Illustrator or...dang, I forgot the name of the free version.

Inkscape...

[rchrds]

That's the one, thanks.

[Wendy Thurman]

Given the price of the class ($1,900- it's at Harvard's Extension School) I think I'll shelve it for the time being and concentrate on surveying techniques. I may be able to make the NFSA workshop and if so, that would be a good start. Meanwhile, read, read, read...

Thanks to all for your input!

[Webmaster]

What Jason said. Conceptually it's applicable, but the stuff you need to learn first for cave mapping is very basic, and a lot of it is just experienced based and repetitive. Unless you're already well grounded in computer assisted mapping, or GIS, I wouldn't worry about that just yet until you get some experience actually surveying.

Now CAD experience on the other hand can be much more directly applicable since you still have to draw the map. Assuming that's what you want to use.

[GIS-Rockstar]

I highly recommend any training with GIS software, as it can be an extremely beneficial skill to use in various career paths - even when GIS is not the main duty in a job description. FSU has an excellent GIS program and they now offer an online graduate certificate program that is worth reading about: http://www.coss.fsu.edu/geography/Students/online_gis_certificate.html.

A less expensive route is to pick up a copy of Getting to Know ArcGIS Desktop, which comes with an ArcMap license/CD so you can dig in and play around with a powerful, industry standard GIS software package. Mr. Poucher is correct in that these courses are geared more toward data management instead of surveying techniques, however there are a number of concepts and techniques that are important to understand (or even just for you to be exposed to) in the world of digital cartography. I have not yet used the other cave mapping software packages (free is wonderful, though), but as a GIS analyst with a masters degree in Geographic Information Science, I can attest to the usefulness of GIS with any degree of survey data.

Wendy, I'll PM you - I'm actively getting into cavern and cave surveying too!