Going Sidemount

[lilsumo]

I have been pondering on going side mount for some time now and cant make up my mind. If i go sidemount I want to go to it full time. it just seems like a better way to dive to me. Not sure about boat diving with singles, but I am sure it can be done. I hear all kinds of BS from people, but I'll make up my own mind.

I have looked at all the different setups and can't make up my mind. I am leaning toward the razor 2 setup, but Steve doesn't seem to want to answer my emails. His training course is also 1200 for 4 days (Holy Crap Batman), maybe i am missing something. Anyone that has trained with him, is it worth it?

I mainly dive dry and i use steel tanks in cold water. The dive rite rig looks good, actually they all look good.

I know I'll have to travel for training and going to Playa Del Carmen for training wouldn't be the end of the world.

How many people on here dive dry in cold water with steel tanks?

I know gear is personalized and everyone has different opinions, but if all your gear was stolen and you had to start over with side mount only, What rig would you buy?


Thanks,


BTW great forum and a great cast of characters in here:clapper

[phillip1]

IMO Steve is the best SM instructor you could possibly have no matter what harness you end up diving with, his courses are definitely worth it.
As for what harness to get, well currently the Razor 2 I think is by far the best.
I use to dive a Nomad for a long time and it is a good harness, however truth be told it does not even come close to the Razor 2.
If you go to Mexico and train with Steve in the Razor not only will you be getting the best possible SM training you will also be getting the most out of the Razor.
If you go to Mexico and train with Steve in a Nomad you will also be getting the most out of the harness and I really recommend it too, but just get a Razor, you wont regret it.

As for SM in the ocean I do it single a two tanks all the time, it is so much more convenient than BM, single tanks SM is great, easy, comfortable and fun.
Doubles in the ocean sucks is heavy and is not as much fun as SM.
I think anyone who really tries SM will never go back to BM unless they have to.

SM rules!!!

Oh yeah if my gear got stolen I would buy a Razor 2

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Cold water, heavy steels, get a Nomad(non ridiculous price) and get training(non ridiculous price) in Florida for cheaper - talk to RN on this forum.

[chimie007]

+1 .

[RN]

While Steve has a great reputation, he only dives aluminum cylinders. He may have some experience in steel cylinders, but every video I've seen of him is in AL80s. That limits what he can do for someone who wants to dive stell cylinders in cold water. It really helps to have the experience in what you are teaching. I don't dive cold water by your standards, but I do dive steels cylinders of all sizes, from 45s to 120s and AL80s. My primary rig is a Nomad, and I do consider the Nomad the best sidemount rig on the market right now, but I also have made many modifications to my Nomad. I have also had a Hollis SMS100 and my own homemade rigs in the water. I also dive dry 95% of the time and even use gloves on occasion. My point is you need to dive the rig suitable for your environment. No single rig will be suitable for all environments. While the Razor is a great rig for its intended use, it's not a great rig for all environments. Whatever rig you choose, get the opinion of divers doing similar dives as you and with varied experience. Get the opinion of people not trying to sell you a rig, but trying to get you in the right rig. And find an instructor that will customize the course to you and your diving. I have a list of questions I give my students to help them choose a rig based on their needs. It's worked pretty well for getting them into the right rig. Just keep in mind, no rig will be perfect for you out of the box. They all need to be customized to you. But only a knowledgeable instructor or mentor will know how to do this.

[phillip1]

What are steel tanks?
Seriously though the Razor 2 has dual 45lbs of lift so it now has more than enough lift, I agree that the previous Razor with an MSR may have been lacking lift for steels but not anymore.
I think that the Razor 2 would be just as good with steels than AL80's, I really cannot see what difference other than using more lift and less weight there would be diving steels vs AL tanks.
Obviously there would be a "feel" difference in tank weight but that would have zero effect on trim etc.. once properly setup.

All things being equal lift wise for SM harnesses now, the Razor 2 is far better than the rest, I would like one person to actually point out a situation were the Nomad would be better and why.
I mean even down to weight a system the Razor 2 now has the competition annihilated.

[Slüdge]

Cold water, heavy steels, get a Nomad(non ridiculous price) and get training(non ridiculous price) in Florida for cheaper - talk to RN on this forum.

Yup.

[jbsmith]

Steve doesn't seem to want to answer my emails.

Last I heard Steve was training away from home. I've had several very good e-mail conversations with HP Hartmann at info@gosidemount.com. Tobin at Deep Sea Supply was also very helpful in providing some details on the construction of the wing and harness components. DSS does first rate work...which was a big incentive for me to purchase the Razor 2 over similar systems. You can also download the manual for the Razor 2 and associated components from http://shop.gosidemount.com.

I just ordered my Razor 2 direct from DSS and should get it next week. I'm also brand new to the world of sidemount diving and planning on venturing to N. Florida in September to do my training. I dive dry here in Ohio (brrrr) and will mostly use LP85s dedicated to SM, but also plan on using AL80s as stages and when I travel. I'm considering just diving a semi-dry or 5-mm wetsuit in the caves...will know more once I get in the water.

I also considered going to Mexico to do the training with Steve, but have since elected to do my training in the environment where I'll be doing 90% of my cave diving. HP mentioned that Steve will bring the training to you, but didn't indicate how much more that would cost. He said they were considering a road tour to promote the new system and conduct training. Florida would be a likely stop.

I'm switching over to sidemount to take some of the weight off my back and shoulders. I was a mess after lugging around a set of LP108s for a week earlier this year...I could barely stand up straight. The walk from the parking lot to the water got longer and longer. I'm certainly not getting (or feeling) any younger.

[NEON]

Steve is a top-notch instructor and his courses is what many consider TRUE EDUCATION. He is thorough, patient, and has a wealth of experience that he is willing to share. I have taken almost all the courses he offers and have absolutely no regrets, on the contrary - I feel that he has helped me improve almost every aspect of my diving considerably. He might not be very easy to get in touch with but the effort would certainly be worth it.

As far as diving the Razor with steel tanks - that is what I dive when not diving in Mexico (where Al tanks suffice ;-)). Drysuit and LP 85's + 80 & 40 Cf Al tanks - no issues. Yes, steels do have a different feel (not as light as Al) but nothing one could not work on and get good at.

Just my 2 cents...

[stairman]

Ill throw in my opinion for what its worth. With no other experience with the others to compare I love my Tranpak/ Nomad and dont even want to try anything else. I took no formal training and got it tweeked by trial and error. I dont like spending money I dont need to and have 400 bucks in my whole setup including buttplate. I will only dive steel tanks and only use an aluminum 80 for a stage. CAVE FILLS RULE!!!. If I was to be a true sidemount squeezer I would take a course, but I just dive the configuration for comfort, redundance and ease out of the water. Again its been a trial and error journey that I didnt mind and having a pool does help with that. Dive-rite is less than 100 miles from my house and I know a few of em pretty good and feel I have and will get the service I need from them.

[WJH]

I have been diving the Hollis SMS 100, which I chose based on the feedback of several good friends who had made 100s of dives in the competing rigs and gave it their highest recommendation. It has needed no customization beyond adding hip D-rings for the way I choose to carry stage bottles. I would buy it again if I had to start over.

WJH

[phillip1]

Ill throw in my opinion for what its worth. With no other experience with the others to compare I love my Tranpak/ Nomad and dont even want to try anything else. I took no formal training and got it tweeked by trial and error. I dont like spending money I dont need to and have 400 bucks in my whole setup including buttplate. I will only dive steel tanks and only use an aluminum 80 for a stage. CAVE FILLS RULE!!!. If I was to be a true sidemount squeezer I would take a course, but I just dive the configuration for comfort, redundance and ease out of the water. Again its been a trial and error journey that I didnt mind and having a pool does help with that. Dive-rite is less than 100 miles from my house and I know a few of em pretty good and feel I have and will get the service I need from them.

Right on, that is exactly how I learned SM, how I decided to switch was as follows: I got stuck pretty bad in doubles exploring a kind of tight cave, in a total siltout alone and a bit scarred I thought to myself "that's it! I am through with BM!" I remember that like it was yesterday.

There were no SM instructors on the island and SM was still a kind of an obscure thing at the time and still not very popular so Thomas and I learned on our own and like you through trial and error we ended up modifying our Nomads and learning how to setup the regs etc.. I have a pool so it made things a lot easier.

Right from the start we both wondered why we even wasted so much time in BM for so many years, I immediately went back to the cave were I got stuck and in SM it seemed much much bigger and was not even a restriction, I remember thinking "SM rules" and SM also comes with no back pain, a higher level of safety, pure comfort and a level of fun never before attainable in BM.

I will add this though after years of self taught SM exploration I went to Mexico when Steve first started selling the Razor and decided to do some training with Steve, I thought I knew something about SM before starting the course and what could this harness possibly have over my A+ Armadillo (by then I had switched to an Armadillo, even better than a Nomad IMO).

Well after the very first day I was blown away, Steve has a SM diving philosophy that I found to be the best, every little detail and every situation has a very simple and well thought out solution, the whole Steve Razor SM concept will make you a way better diver no matter what rig you end up using, in fact pretty much all the SM techniques and procedures thought in Mexico today are solutions and procedures Steve has come up with through direct real world experiences in those situations.

What I learned form Steve totally changed the way I dive and I made a huge leap forward, sure I could have continued with my Nomad on my own, but with the Razor and what i learned form Steve I came back to the DR a new and much improved Felipe the explorer. The Razor was and still is IMHO the best rig by far.

In retrospect if at the time I started out I had access to a SM instructor I would have done it, with an instructor you will learn in 4 days what it would take you 4 months to figure out on your own, how to setup your harness, the hose routing etc.. it is all very time consuming to learn on your own, a lot of fun, but time consuming.

Your instructor will show you how he or she likes to setup the harness and you will be able to try out many different setups in a very short time and will be able to figure out what is your favorite method much quicker.

In the end after trying out every harness (at the time there were only the Nomad and Armadillo) I ended up liking the Razor way more, I agree that the original Razor with an MSR bag may have lacked some lift for diving steel tanks, but now with 45lbs of lift it will work just as good with steels or AL tanks zero difference.

Many people recommend the Nomad blindly but have never dove the Razor 2 or even physically seen one, I have dove both extensively and I am 100% sure that if you made a diving comparison everyone would pick the Razor 2 hands down.

If price is an issue I can understand, but then again you are talking $100 bucks more to go from a Dodge Neon to a Ferrari F40.

[RN]

I agree that the original Razor with an MSR bag may have lacked some lift for diving steel tanks, but now with 45lbs of lift it will work just as good with steels or AL tanks zero difference.

The issue is with where the bulk of the lift on the new bladder is.


Many people recommend the Nomad blindly but have never dove the Razor 2 or even physically seen one, I have dove both extensively and I am 100% sure that if you made a diving comparison everyone would pick the Razor 2 hands down.

You would be very wrong.

It's obvious you love your Razor 2. And it is a well designed system, but it doesn't work for every person and every type of diving. Different divers have different needs. Any instructor who tries to push one particular system on his/her students is doing a great disservice to those students.

[phillip1]

Could be, but I am also basing my opinion on more than just my experience and on the fact that every diver in the DR who has tried a Razor has adopted it hands down, we all vary in size from tall and skinny (me) to Oleg who is a 250 lbs Russian ex KGB guy and also Vicka who is a slender blonde russian girl to Cris who is small and a bit chubby.

Every one of these divers were using some kind of other harness SM or BM.
Oleg was using a Nomad exclusively for years and liked the Razor so much the first time he tried it he sold his Nomad almost immediately.

I think the bulk of the lift in the new bladder is were you would need it, around the hips and lower back depending on how high you setup the wing attachment, all other harnesses are pretty much the same as far as lift distribution.

Another thing I would like to point out and make very clear is that every single thing Steve teaches can be applied to any harness, yes it works better in the Razor and Steve rightfully promotes using the Razor, but if you were to do your training with Steve in a Nomad or any other harness you would end up a way better diver in a way better setup and could apply everything you learned to any harness you end up using, the thing about Steve is that he is IMO the best SM instructor and the level of training you will get will be the absolute best, it is pretty much agreed amongst all in mexico that Steve is the reference when it comes to SM training, if you can afford the courses do it, it is worth every dollar.

Yes I love the Razor and will argue to death about it's merits and I would love to argue against Nomad/Armadillo/Hollis lovers too but you guys are not very vocal in defending the many virtues of your respective harnesses.

I agree that in the end it comes down to only one thing...personal preference and remember the most important thing is that no matter what harness you choose SM is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO O much better in every way than BM, but that's a whole other thread...

[stairman]

I wouldnt say SM is better in every way, it takes longer to hit the water and submerge, but to me thats about it and Im patient so no biggie.

[MORGAN]

I started diving sidemount a year ago. I only have about 40 dives in sidemount, and still dive backmount as well. I'm using a dual bladder Nomad with steel LP85's and 95's, wet in Florida caves, dry up here in the cold water. I like it a lot.

Three suggestions:

1) Take a class. I tend to be a do it myself, learn by trial & error sort, and I thought I was making pretty good progress on my own. Then Tracy and I took a sidemount class with Paul Heinerth, and it shortened the process of becoming happy and comfortable in SM dramatically.

2) Pick the brains of all your sidemount buddies - look at their setups, and have them explain why they have things that way and how it works. Everybody's rig is different.

3) Stick with it. When I started SM, I hadn't changed a single thing on my BM caving rig for 4 years, and the change felt really awkward. I was ready to put my Nomad on Ebay after each one of my first 10 or so dives. But Jeandiver and Ron at DO both told me that I needed at least 20 dives in SM before I could make a good decision. They were right - somewhere between 15 & 20 dives SM started to feel right. Now I'm equally comfortable in SM and BM. I prefer BM for diving off a boat, and SM for caving. I also notice that at the end of a two week, 20-25 dive caving trip, I feel much less beat up diving SM.

Tracy transitioned to SM much more quickly and easily than I did - she said after her first dive in SM that she never planned to dive BM doubles again. But I am a stick in the mud stubborn old fart, and she is not! :)

Mike

[adam0321]

I seem to remember a time I was at JB diving with a very good side mount diver. One that teaches SM and sells alot of SM rigs. A diver observed him in the new hollis SM rig and stated" man that hollis gives you perfect trrim hu?" the reply from the indavidual was positive afterwhich he turned to me and stated "sure it's all the rig". My point is If you learn a rig and dive it you can get good results out of all of them. I dive a oxycheq recon 2. It's a harness hated by most of the divers around my area. But I love it and often find myself in better trim than some of the other people I dive with. If you like the Razor two than get it. personaly am to cheap to spring for that kind of money. I waited for months to find a deal and got my recon for $200.00. But I will probaly never go to something else. If you think you are going to be going into very small stuff, than go with a razor type system. I think Steve only teaches the RAzor systems. I remember hearing him say that on his DVD. However as stated if you are going to be diving mostly in Florida, than why not take your training here. In the very caves you will be diivng in? Just my .02

[ffdiver5597]

What I have realized through all my research into sidemount and all the different systems out there, they are all in some way shape or form very similar to eachother.

Strip the padding off a nomad and you have a basic harness and wing similar to hog harness or even the razor.

When I figured out how to attach a trek wing to a bone diver harness I thought I was a genius, but then I realized that's what the wing was designed for and following both dive rite and steves manual I was able to attach it pretty easily. I would have been able to use both resources if they didn't have close similarities.

Try out all the systems, none is that much better then the rest, you are going to have to make mods to each one of them to get it perfect.

[WJH]

What are steel tanks? . . .

That is very telling. Clearly you are not familiar with the different needs of those of us who dive steels with drysuits. Al 80s in warm water with thin wetsuits is a whole different animal.

WJH

[Merlin Rhoda]

I have no prior experience with sidemount. I took Steve's class and bought a Razor2. It worked great in Mexico and I wondered how it would work at home.

I broke up a set of X7-120's and set them up for sidemount along with my CF200 drysuit and drygloves. Everything works fine in our local 47F water. My only frustration is my dry glove rings are so wide it's difficult to get them between the tanks and my body.

There is a huge difference in the feel between alu80's and large steel cylinders. I'm thinking a set of LP80's would be a better choice than the X7-120's I'm using.

I'm sure other rigs would work well too. I know I could have put something together myself for less money, but I would lose a few of the niceties that I really like about this system - how the weights are mounted, how the wing attaches, etc.

[adam0321]

That is very telling. Clearly you are not familiar with the different needs of those of us who dive steels with drysuits. Al 80s in warm water with thin wetsuits is a whole different animal.

WJH

I'm sure he is.

Sent from my Eris

[phillip1]

That is very telling. Clearly you are not familiar with the different needs of those of us who dive steels with drysuits. Al 80s in warm water with thin wetsuits is a whole different animal.

WJH

Uh.... I was kidding

[rongoodman]

The issue is with where the bulk of the lift on the new bladder is.
What's the issue with the location of the Razor's lift, as opposed to the Nomad's, for diving with steels?

[lilsumo]

What's the issue with the location of the Razor's lift, as opposed to the Nomad's, for diving with steels?



Good Question!!

[suzana]

I'm not really sure what the issue would be with the location of the lift....my guess is there is none. As for the emails, be patient with Steve. It's my understanding that he's been out of the country for a while and he's a busy guy. He is also a good guy and very respectful of others and he'll get back to you. If you have questions about the Razor you could also email HP Hartmann and he would be able to answer them.

As for diving with steels, my husband dives the original Razor with a 10L MSR bag and steels with no issue. The reason Steve is only seen in video with AL80's is because that's what is available in Mexico. He didn't start diving in Mexico and I'm quite sure he has plenty of experience with steel tanks. He is also quite a smart guy. For the record. An enormous amount of thought and testing have gone in to this system. Anyway, we both have the original Razor and we love it. I don't have the bat wing, however, I was diving with someone who has it for a week and I will be getting one. 45lbs of lift is more than enough for steels and stages. Let's be serious people. It's also not bulky. It is a very steamlined wing.

As far as the training goes....training with Steve is worth every penny. His experience speaks for itself. He also cares about his students and adapts the training to meet their needs. If you decide to train with Steve, you won't regret it. Also, his training is not that expensive. Compare it with similar training in the area. If you are going to buy the Razor system I would definitely train with Steve. He will fit the system to you and make adjustments as he sees you in the water.

As for the cost of the system? I have read the other thread where people were complaining that it was $100 too much. This, I entirely don't get. I'm assuming that those people complaining are active divers. So, they dive a lot. I could be wrong. However, if you dive a lot, how much does that $100 really average out to per dive? For the time that you use the system?

I have also never heard Steve say, in a video or anywhere else, that he will only train students in a Razor. I could be wrong. However, I think it was more a case of students seeing the harness and wanting it. Steve didn't develop the harness to make a buck. It was something he developed to meet his needs while he was exploring. In any case, in my opinion, you will get the most out of the Razor if you train with Steve and the most out of Steve's training if you use the Razor.

Good luck with whatever you choose and have fun with side mount!

[phillip1]

What's the issue with the location of the Razor's lift, as opposed to the Nomad's, for diving with steels?


Good Question!!

With all due respect to RN, I think there is no issue at all.

Steve will train you in any rig, even in BM! imagine that!

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I'm not really sure what the issue would be with the location of the lift....my guess is there is none...

Ya kinda start losing credibility at this point.

[ffdiver5597]

Alot of this razor talk reminds me of scubaboard a few years back when a few out spoken members converted to DIR.

[suzana]

Really? Well I think you entirely missed the point. That was directed at the flamers. Like you. And as far as I'm concerned, you lost all your credibility in the last thread.

[ffdiver5597]

I Think RN is the furthest thing from a flamer. He was giving his opinion on why other systems work just as well or even better for different situations and divers.

[suzana]

ffdiver5597, sorry, that was not directed at you. I do see your point. However, it should be said that Steve Bogaerts is not a person to tell anyone else how to dive. I think this is more of a case of people who know and respect him getting tired of seeing him and a fantastic system get blasted on these boards. Mostly by those who have nothing to contribute but inflammatory remarks.

[suzana]

Also, didn't intend to call RN a flamer. My apologies to you Rob if it came off that way. I have read many of your posts and you have valuable things to say.

[ffdiver5597]

No one on this board blasted him. I haven't heard a bad thing about the razor system except for the price, but that was a whole other thread that steve himself even comment on.

To be honest, it's annoying to constantly see a very one sided praise for just one system when people ask about different ones. We understand that alot of the people that own razor love them, and all the power to you, but it's not the end all be all of diving.

I made a copy, I really like my copy it works really well for what I want to use it for, but I'm also getting a nomad for other thing, the way I look at it if it's good enough for guys like lamar and rob and the guys that first brought sidemount to the caves in Florida, then it will work for all the tourist things I wanna do.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Really? Well I think you entirely missed the point. That was directed at the flamers. Like you. And as far as I'm concerned, you lost all your credibility in the last thread.

Which thread was that?






PS, I had credibility?

[phillip1]

As long as you dive SM you are on the right track, the rest is details.

[gearhound]

The OP asked if it was worthwhile to get training with Steve. So the people most qualified to comment would be the ones that received training with Steve.
I'll agree that the people that have the Razor are very enthusiastic about their love of them, but there seems to be a group that's very negative about it without having tried it or seen it. So, they lack credibility.
I'm not calling out RN, he gives some insightful and sometime humorous commentary.
I own an Armadillo, Nomad and Razor. I dive steels in cold water in a drysuit. I received my cave training in Florida and regularly dive in Mexico.
My preference: wetsuit with Al80's in Mexico with the Razor. It's just so much fun!
As mentioned by RN, all the systems work, they just need adjustments. But that's sidemount. Welcome to the world of "tweaking"!

[Merlin Rhoda]

... I haven't heard a bad thing about the razor system except for the price, but that was a whole other thread that steve himself even comment on.

To be honest, it's annoying to constantly see a very one sided praise for just one system when people ask about different ones. We understand that alot of the people that own razor love them, and all the power to you, but it's not the end all be all of diving.

I made a copy, I really like my copy it works really well for what I want to use it for, but I'm also getting a nomad for other thing, the way I look at it if it's good enough for guys like lamar and rob and the guys that first brought sidemount to the caves in Florida, then it will work for all the tourist things I wanna do.

I think you're right on in this post. The Razor works great, is well thought out, and works in a variety of environments. It is a little expensive, as is the training. In my opinion it was money well spent but another person may weigh the decision differently.

I suspect the difference in what one can accomplish in any of the rigs we've been discussing is pretty slim and environment specific. I doubt you could go wrong with any of them.

It might be more useful to talk about what we like/dislike about the various rigs. One of the reasons I chose the Razor is that it has no extra padding or fastex buckles on it.

[rongoodman]

From comments I've heard both in Florida and and in Mexico, I think there's a little regional rivalry in play. It seems to be expressing itself here from time to time as Nomad vs. Razor. I do plan on trying out the Razor with LP85s, which is why I asked about the location of the lift being non-optimal for steels.

[lilsumo]

The 100 dollars price tag more really means nothing to me. I am not saying i like to throw away money, but when your willing to spend 1k on a flash light or 6k on a DPV, 100 dollars is really a small amount if it's the gear you want.

As far as training goes, if it's top notch training I'll save my money and pay the man. The problem I have with training, not just in scuba, but in Sky Diving,Snow skiing etc etc, is that you pay for this top notch training that turns out to be 1 great day of training, then 3 more days of just filling the time to take your money.

I will not say one bad thing about Steve cause I don't know him or even talked to him for that matter but, If you look on his website it says open water for 4 days 1200 (300 a day), then it says advanced open water for 4 days 1200 (300 day), but if you buy them together you pay 2100 for 7 Days (300 a day). So really no discount at all. That makes no sense to me.

If it takes 4 days to do open water and it takes 4 days to do advanced then how come it only take 7 days to do if you combine them.

I am NOT bashing his prices at all, but it's stuff like that, that makes the quality come into ? for me. How can you develop a top notch training program and then just cut out a whole day of it. If it takes 4 days to do them both separately, it should take 8 days to do them back to back.

I have looked for other instructors pricing and schedule to compare, but with no luck.

[RN]

What's the issue with the location of the Razor's lift, as opposed to the Nomad's, for diving with steels?

Check out :42-:57 of this video of Steve - http://www.youtube.com/user/stevebogaerts#p/a/u/0/Ex3u5iYARs4 - and you tell me. He's carrying enough AL80s in this video to approximate the negative buoyancy of moderate size steel cylinders.

[Greenwood_60]

I will not say one bad thing about Steve cause I don't know him or even talked to him for that matter but, If you look on his website it says open water for 4 days 1200 (300 a day), then it says advanced open water for 4 days 1200 (300 day), but if you buy them together you pay 2100 for 7 Days (300 a day). So really no discount at all. That makes no sense to me.

If it was a lecture, I could understand you complaint. But we are talking about 1 on 1 personal training. I would be suspicious if doing it back to back still took 8 days!

As far as cost, I have never seen a cave instructor I would consider expensive. Steve (and probably every other instructor mentioned on this thread) is better at what he does that I am at what I do professionally. You are talking about the top in their field. Yet clients regularly pay 3x per day for my time.

[Greenwood_60]

Check out :42-:57 of this video of Steve - http://www.youtube.com/user/stevebogaerts#p/a/u/0/Ex3u5iYARs4 - and you tell me. He's carrying enough AL80s in this video to approximate the negative buoyancy of moderate size steel cylinders.

IF THEY WERE FULL! Come on, tell me when he rolls over, those cylinders shift around like they have any negative buoyancy. On top of that, the weight is going to be primarily near his armpits where the valve and reg are. I am not trying to say it will or wont work for steel cylinders, just that 6 ALs doesn't indicate anything.

[Slüdge]

As long as you dive SM you are on the right track, the rest is details.

I'm compelled to ask: have you ever dived with backmounted steel doubles? Just curious.

[gearhound]

Check out :42-:57 of this video of Steve - http://www.youtube.com/user/stevebogaerts#p/a/u/0/Ex3u5iYARs4 - and you tell me. He's carrying enough AL80s in this video to approximate the negative buoyancy of moderate size steel cylinders.

Beautiful! I don't really see a problem. The bladder is getting full, but it is in the small of his back where it is out of the way. The profile still looks relatively streamlined from what I can tell. I have to bungee up the armadillo and nomad to get the lift down to where I want it. And it would require the same amount of air.
Besides, in a drysuit you wouldn't need as much air in the bladder to offset the buoyancy.
I'll give a more valid opinion in a couple of weeks. One of my students ordered a Razor2 which is stuck in shipping right now because of the postal strike here in Canada. He's going to be diving with steel 100's.

[suzana]

$300 per day is Steve's fee for training. Doing the course/s back to back and cutting a day most likely allows for time that would be spent on review and other misc issues. The time he quotes is an estimation of the time it will take a student to learn the material and skills.

[skip]

I dive a homemade sidemount harness that combines features of the razor and nomad and armadillo. I use a dive rite classic wing, slung real low with the top of the wing trapped by the harness (wing inside or under harness). I tried removing the wing and add a camel-back 3liter bag and it was fun, but was not sufficient lift with steel tanks (lp95's). I tried a 6 liter camel back and it was better, but again problematic at depth and with stages. I am not so sure that 45lbs of lift is adequate for steel tanks, stages, deco, scooter if you journey deep and cold. I also dive dry, but depending on a dry suit for lift in addition to a wing seems like trouble. Each alone should have sufficient lift. I'm not against the razor and have not tried one, but my homemade rig is about as simple as it gets (30 bucks in harness and hardware, then add the wing of your choice). I'm just concerned that less than 55 lbs of lift is not going to do for steel tanks, 2 stages, and a deco bottle.

skip

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Beautiful! I don't really see a problem. The bladder is getting full, but it is in the small of his back where it is out of the way. The profile still looks relatively streamlined from what I can tell. I have to bungee up the armadillo and nomad to get the lift down to where I want it. And it would require the same amount of air.
Besides, in a drysuit you wouldn't need as much air in the bladder to offset the buoyancy.
I'll give a more valid opinion in a couple of weeks. One of my students ordered a Razor2 which is stuck in shipping right now because of the postal strike here in Canada. He's going to be diving with steel 100's.

It looks pretty well full with just 6 AL80s as well. Thats not really that much weight and the wing is already ballooned out quite a bit IMO. We're talkin, what, about 9lbs negative? One of my LP95s weigh that full... tack on its brother, a stage or two(3#s), a deco bottle or two... and I wonder how that thing would look... and if it'd have enough lift all together. Sure, I know Steve B dove it in Malta, in salt water, in ~100' of water, and didn't use the batwing because he'd rather use his drysuit(??)... but will it work for a dive that actually requires a couple tanks... that aren't AL80s?

I don't really like surounding myself in an AL80 cacoon, I'm clausterphobic, so what about some grown-up tanks and a couple stages... and the deco tanks to go with it for a real dive, in fresh water, when we don't want to rely on a drysuit for bouyancy?


I'm not sure why you have a problem getting air where you need it in an Armadillo or Nomad. No issues here, maybe spend a bit of time in them.

[aainslie]

I love this thread. I have a nomad and a razor. Love 'em both. Horses for courses.

[skip]

horses for courses? what does that mean? sidemount courses are not worthwhile? or ... ?

skip

[aainslie]

horses for courses? what does that mean? sidemount courses are not worthwhile? or ... ?

skip

What was that old line about two nations separated by a common language?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horses_for_courses

Whoever wrote that was probably American. it also applies to things and their usage as well as to people and jobs , e.g.

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1106awsi/index.html

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Race horses.... where all the babes where big stupid hats. Gotcha.

[Slüdge]

Check out :42-:57 of this video of Steve

Why doesn't he use some of the money he's making off this system and buy some big cylinders? A pair of LP-120s and two stages will carry more gas than six eighties. :smt102

[ffdiver5597]

I think the point of the video is that he is trying to prove a point. It would have brought the point home for me if he in fact used lp95s but I guess showing that you can use that many tanks with the harness is what he was going for.

[aainslie]

Why doesn't he use some of the money he's making off this system and buy some big cylinders? A pair of LP-120s and two stages will carry more gas than six eighties. :smt102

It's funny to even listen to these discussions.

All I can say is that a few days with Steve will change your mind about how to dive caves. He is to diving what haiku is to poetry... bow hunting is to hunting... cabinetry is to carpentry... OK, I'm running out of these...

The quick answer is, it's all about the buoyancy.

[ffdiver5597]

Again, I heard all the same things when a few SB found DIR.

[aainslie]

Rousseau: "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong."

[ffdiver5597]

Its not meant as an insult. I look at the razor as a really cool system, but it seems like it's the new kool aid.

[aainslie]

I see... so SB users turning to DIR and "kool aid" aren't insults...

Which brings me to another quote:

"No one can be as calculatedly rude as the British, which amazes Americans, who do not understand studied insult and can only offer abuse as a substitute."

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Nothin wrong with the Razor, on the right course :P



It ain't the end all be all.

[apitkin]

Which brings me to another quote:

"No one can be as calculatedly rude as the British, which amazes Americans, who do not understand studied insult and can only offer abuse as a substitute."

I didn't know you were British?

[aainslie]

I didn't know you were British?

I'm not. I still like the quote though :)

[skip]

...

[skip]

What was that old line about two nations separated by a common language?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horses_for_courses

Whoever wrote that was probably American. it also applies to things and their usage as well as to people and jobs , e.g.

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1106awsi/index.html

ah so. for every foot there is a shoe.

skip

[Greenwood_60]

ah so. for every foot there is a shoe.

Or... for every foot there is a mouth.

[pink arrows]

Or... for every foot there is a mouth.

For every mouth there are two feet : P

[mdax]

side mount and back mount are just different tools to perform a task. We love our nomads however we'll be using back mount for trimix diving and our side mount systems for wriggling into rock bluff....also nice to use back mount rather than making multiple trips to the water through hordes of blood sucking mosquitoes ala mayan blue this time of year...for every trip there are 20 bites, even with two fast moving feet.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlhPbMl4QP5v7HkcHCRPHIlGM20CBOf Cus733ISk8r5KGbrrV1&t=1

[RN]

IF THEY WERE FULL! Come on, tell me when he rolls over, those cylinders shift around like they have any negative buoyancy. On top of that, the weight is going to be primarily near his armpits where the valve and reg are. I am not trying to say it will or wont work for steel cylinders, just that 6 ALs doesn't indicate anything.

It's not about the cylinders. It's about the wing. The wing fully inflated like that, as it has to be to compensate for the weight of the cylinders (and would have to be even more inflated with 2 steel cylinders), creates quite a large profile. I'd guess from looking at that video the wing is close to a foot above his back. None of the systems that were designed for use with steel cylinders have that high of a profile.



Beautiful! I don't really see a problem. The bladder is getting full, but it is in the small of his back where it is out of the way. The profile still looks relatively streamlined from what I can tell. I have to bungee up the armadillo and nomad to get the lift down to where I want it. And it would require the same amount of air.

It looks streamlined because he is carrying 6 AL80s. Replace those with 2 steel cylinders and the streamlined look is gone. He then will look like a turtle with a big bulging shell. The larger wings of the armadillo and nomad spread out the air over a larger area and keep it in a lower profile.


Besides, in a drysuit you wouldn't need as much air in the bladder to offset the buoyancy.

And when you have a dry suit failure? You then need to count on the bladder to get keep you neutral.


For all of you who think I'm flaming Steve, I'm not. The Razor is a great system. It's just not the end all be all system that some of you are trying to make it out to be. I'm sure Steve would even acknowledge that (actually he has). The DIR comparisons that have been made in this thread are very appropriate. There are people that have given DIR a bad reputation because of how they try to promote DIR. The same is happening to the Razor. You are doing nothing more than alienating some people who might otherwise like and buy the Razor. But, somehow, I doubt you'll even understand that.

[pink arrows]

Okay Mat I stand corrected.

For every mouth there are *USUALLY* two feet; but sometimes there are between 0-3 feet (or more if you're not human).

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Ruh Roh!

http://www.apnba.com/img/2005lents.jpg

[gearhound]

It looks pretty well full with just 6 AL80s as well. Thats not really that much weight and the wing is already ballooned out quite a bit IMO. We're talkin, what, about 9lbs negative? One of my LP95s weigh that full... tack on its brother, a stage or two(3#s), a deco bottle or two... and I wonder how that thing would look... and if it'd have enough lift all together. Sure, I know Steve B dove it in Malta, in salt water, in ~100' of water, and didn't use the batwing because he'd rather use his drysuit(??)... but will it work for a dive that actually requires a couple tanks... that aren't AL80s?

I don't really like surounding myself in an AL80 cacoon, I'm clausterphobic, so what about some grown-up tanks and a couple stages... and the deco tanks to go with it for a real dive, in fresh water, when we don't want to rely on a drysuit for bouyancy?


I'm not sure why you have a problem getting air where you need it in an Armadillo or Nomad. No issues here, maybe spend a bit of time in them.

Actually, I spend quite a bit of time in them. How spent in them how much time have you spent in the Razor?

It's funny how you keep getting involved in all the Razor discussions in a negative way without even having tried the system. You remind me a lot of those guys phoning in to talk shows to rant about how crappy the players and coaches are, without having ever played the game. Relax...and stop spitting into the phone!

[pink arrows]

I hate you.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I hate you.

Comon now, give gearhound a break. He knows not the error of his ways.

[pink arrows]

Comon now, give gearhound a break. He knows not the error of his ways.

How did I know you were going to do that?

My apologies gearhound. You are wonderful. Especially since you are calling the bug guy out. I think we should be friends. Wanna go diving?

: )

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Actually, I spend quite a bit of time in them. How spent in them how much time have you spent in the Razor?

It's funny how you keep getting involved in all the Razor discussions in a negative way without even having tried the system. You remind me a lot of those guys phoning in to talk shows to rant about how crappy the players and coaches are, without having ever played the game. Relax...and stop spitting into the phone!

So where in this are you saying I'm wrong?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

How did I know you were going to do that?

Great minds and slow edits?

[pink arrows]

Great minds and slow edits?

I'll take it.

[NEON]

4405

Well...There is a diver in HP 100's steels and a stage. Looks like neither like a turtle nor like a Michelin man, and this is before the BAT wing - read MSR - about half the volume / lift capacity.

[RN]

4405

Well...There is a diver in HP 100's steels and a stage. Looks like neither like a turtle nor like a Michelin man, and this is before the BAT wing - read MSR - about half the volume / lift capacity.

And in a dry suit to compensate for the lack of lift in the MSR - note the dry gloves.

[NEON]

Trust me, you'd need a drysuit and gloves in water 3°C - it is not a matter of compensating for lack of buoyancy. I had experienced a zipper failure and my main concern then was freezing, not loss of lift.

Where is your redundant buoyancy in a wetsuit anyway???

Steels, stages and a wetsuit???

That would be a whole other topic though...

As the photo I posted illustrates - one can dive the razor comfortably in a drysuit with steel tanks and stages (up to 2 al tanks in my experience) without compromising trim or looking like a turtle.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I'm talking about heavy steels, not little LP85s/HP100s for one thing. Those little things don't hold much more gas than an AL80...

Redundant bouyancy in a wetsuit, the Bat wing has a dual bladder - but is it enough lift alone to carry heavy steels, stages, and deco, on a deeper freshwater dive? It looked pretty well inflated when a mere 9lbs of AL80s were strapped all the way around Steve in his video. Thats less than the weight of one steel tank, much less a pair... and stages and deco.

To give you an idea... a cave filled LP95 will equate to 7-8 full AL80s bouyancy wise. A cave filled LP108 or LP120 can be even more negatively bouyant. So looking at that video, and how inflated the Bat wing is with 6 AL80s, do you think it'll lift the diver if he were strapped to 18-20 full AL80s? more?






The Razor looks great, if your stuck using light tanks, not so much for bigger dives where bigger steels are available(and optimal over twice as many small capacity tanks) along with stages and deco.

It aint the end all be all. Harness based systems are fun to play with though, granted, you can make one for a little over $100 without a wing(which can be adapted from other alternatives cheaper than the Bat wing - which you can also purchase seperately now).

[OFG-1]

Enough already all of you. If you want a razor, buy one. If you don't want one, buy something else. Feel free to piss away as much money as you want to on whatever interesting piece of diving brick a brack as you see fit.

Try the system out, and see if you like it. Get someone to loan you one. If you want to try a Armadillo, let me know you can use one of mine.

BTW, have you seen the new Minnus? If you want to spend money, save up for one of these.

http://caveadventurers.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_58&products_id=939

[NEON]

I'm talking about heavy steels, not little LP85s/HP100s for one thing. Those little things don't hold much more gas than an AL80...

Redundant bouyancy in a wetsuit, the Bat wing has a dual bladder - but is it enough lift alone to carry heavy steels, stages, and deco, on a deeper freshwater dive? It looked pretty well inflated when a mere 9lbs of AL80s were strapped all the way around Steve in his video. Thats less than the weight of one steel tank, much less a pair... and stages and deco.

To give you an idea... a cave filled LP95 will equate to 7-8 full AL80s bouyancy wise. A cave filled LP108 or LP120 can be even more negatively bouyant. So looking at that video, and how inflated the Bat wing is with 6 AL80s, do you think it'll lift the diver if he were strapped to 18-20 full AL80s? more?






The Razor looks great, if your stuck using light tanks, not so much for bigger dives where bigger steels are available(and optimal over twice as many small capacity tanks) along with stages and deco.

It aint the end all be all. Harness based systems are fun to play with though, granted, you can make one for a little over $100 without a wing(which can be adapted from other alternatives cheaper than the Bat wing - which you can also purchase seperately now).

1. I would not attempt a "deeper freshwater dive" with cave filled LP 108's and stages in a wetsuit and I think you should not either, be it in a Nomad or a Razor. Diving that much overweight just does not seem to be a very good idea. Mind you, a Nomad wing will bulge just as much in these conditions and most of the volume would be around the sides of the back and the shoulders - naturally high profile areas.

2. I do not agree with your continuous bashing of the price. At the end the harness is priced in the same range as other such products. Trying to argue that a bunch of thread, a pillow-full of foam and a handful of fastex buckles that most inevitably remove somehow adds value to a product is just petty. Wonder if you would have contemplated making a Nomad clone "for cheaper" if you had access to a heavy-duty sewing machine. Yeah you can probably even carve diving goggles out of wood and bottle glass for less - so what? Using the same logic why even bother paying for courses - one could easily figure things out on one's own...

Seriously - no one is claiming that the Razor is the ultimate solution - "the end all be all".
It is however an elegant solution and, in my opinion, superior to other designs in many ways.

[RN]

Trust me, you'd need a drysuit and gloves in water 3°C - it is not a matter of compensating for lack of buoyancy. I had experienced a zipper failure and my main concern then was freezing, not loss of lift.

Are you that dense? My point isn't the water temperature, it's the fact that you're trying to put up an example of a Razor with steel cylinders using a diver in a dry suit.


Where is your redundant buoyancy in a wetsuit anyway???

The only time I dive wet is when I need to because the passage dictates it. At that point I really don't need buoyancy, or fins for that matter.


Steels, stages and a wetsuit???

Read above.


That would be a whole other topic though...

Exactly! So why are you bringing it up??


As the photo I posted illustrates - one can dive the razor comfortably in a drysuit with steel tanks and stages (up to 2 al tanks in my experience) without compromising trim or looking like a turtle.

Small cylinders. And dry suit is mandatory for lift.


Seriously - no one is claiming that the Razor is the ultimate solution - "the end all be all".

Phillip is.

[OFG-1]

http://3alleypub.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg?w=450

[SuPrBuGmAn]

1. I would not attempt a "deeper freshwater dive" with cave filled LP 108's and stages in a wetsuit and I think you should not either, be it in a Nomad or a Razor. Diving that much overweight just does not seem to be a very good idea. Mind you, a Nomad wing will bulge just as much in these conditions and most of the volume would be around the sides of the back and the shoulders - naturally high profile areas.

With sufficient redundant lift, why not? Sufficient is the key word though.


2. I do not agree with your continuous bashing of the price. At the end the harness is priced in the same range as other such products. Trying to argue that a bunch of thread, a pillow-full of foam and a handful of fastex buckles that most inevitably remove somehow adds value to a product is just petty. Wonder if you would have contemplated making a Nomad clone "for cheaper" if you had access to a heavy-duty sewing machine. Yeah you can probably even carve diving goggles out of wood and bottle glass for less - so what? Using the same logic why even bother paying for courses - one could easily figure things out on one's own...

There are Nomad clones... they cost about the same. You can buy the Razor harness clone stuff and build one for half the cost, without an industrial sewing machine or any other specialty tools. You don't have to agree with me questioning the pricing, I'm 100% OK with that. It doesn't change anything, if you want a harness based system, you can shell out twice as much for Steve's set; or you can buy the webbing and hardware and put it together yourself for about 50% less. At those price points, you will continue to see DIY copies. Steve, you, and whoever else wants justify the cost of the Razor harness, will have to deal with that.

But really, this thread isn't about cost.


Seriously - no one is claiming that the Razor is the ultimate solution - "the end all be all".
It is however an elegant solution and, in my opinion, superior to other designs in many ways.

Have you read through this thread and the others where others have stated the Razor will be ideal in all situations? Its there...

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with the Razor, in the environment its suited for... There are environments outside of its range.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

http://3alleypub.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg?w=450

That looks nothing like the copymachine in my office.

[phillip1]

#1 the Razor2 the absolute best in every way and now has more than enough lift dual 45lbs!

# 2 The Armadillo, this a really good rig, nice and streamlined, well thought out and very good quality, there is not much to be said other than the Armadillo is a true SM rig designed by SM divers who actually sat down and really thought about what would work and what would not.
For all you lift whiners out there is the 35lbs of lift the Armadillo has enough for steels? I hear all you guys complaining about the Razor2 not having enough with 45lbs so I am not sure if you need more or not, for me the Armadillo is a very good harness and close 2nd to the Razor.
I did many dives in the Armadillo, not as many as the Nomad because I switched to the Razor a year or so after buying my Dillo, but it is a really good rig and if I was banned form using a Razor, I would reactivate my Armadillo (yeah I still have it).
Not that this matters (but it kind of does a bit in some situations) but the Armadillo is the coolest looking of all harnesses and you will look mean diving an Armadillo, outside a cave gearing up you will be the coolest and most experienced looking diver in the group and you could increase your chances of impressing girls that may be present at the dive site (there are many in the DR), also the Armadillo logo is my all time favorite dive logo.

#3 the Nomad, I dove a Nomad for years and it works ok with many mods, it is also of good quality build although not as tough as the Dilo it is bulky and the wing is not designed specifically for a SM rig it is a wing design more in line with homemade stab jacket type SM wings and is more of a modular thing so you can also BM, definitly NOT specifically SM like the above mentioned two.
The lift is kind of in the wrong place and you need to mess around with the bungees to get it right (hips, lower back) but in the end it will work ok.
The Nomad is the least streamlined rig of all, you do get caught up a lot more than with a Dillo, let alone a Razor, in tight caves and it needs to be stripped of just about everything to work as a SM rig, not as streamlined as and Armadillo no matter what you do and frankly if you want to dive true SM caves the wing design and general bulkier design will become a hassle but in spite of that it also works and I did many many exploration dives with a Nomad.

Both the Armadillo and Nomad are a real hassle to add weights, there is no weight system and you have to take out the straps, use zip ties, bungee ect.. to add or take off weights, plus the weight distribution is limited and not always optimal. yeah yea I know once the wights are on you don't need to change them, well I dive in the ocean, with video lights, AL40's in semi sumps etc.. so I really like being able to change weights with zero hassle in under a minute, and of all SM systems the Razor 2 is the only one that has a real weight system and it is super simple too and weight distribution can be fined tuned to suit anyone's needs.

So in the end after diving the Nomad and Armadillo extensively I discovered the Razor, and it will do anything the other two will do, just is a way more streamlined manner. Now I did agree that the MSR bag may have lacked lift for steels but now the Razor 2 has more lift than other systems so it will do what a Razor does with enough lift for anything. I am not blindly endorsing the Razor my opinion is based on actual dives in many different rigs if someone comes up with a better design I will be first in line to get one it is just that at the present time the Razor is in a class of it's own.

For example Deepairmike posted a week ago about a harness he is designing maybe that will be better than the Razor, I have a 100% open mind and at same time I dive the best possible gear and configuration I can and I am keenly interested in what other people are diving and why, but when it comes to the Nomad, sorry been there done that... and the Razor is way better

[NEON]

Are you that dense? My point isn't the water temperature, it's the fact that you're trying to put up an example of a Razor with steel cylinders using a diver in a dry suit.

As others have previously stated:

Rousseau: "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong."

Do me a favor - post a profile picture of a diver in wetsuit at ~30m depth with the same steel cylinder configuration - HP 100's + a stage - would love to see what the Nomad wing would look like.

Dense would be diving such configuration WET in the first place.




The only time I dive wet is when I need to because the passage dictates it. At that point I really don't need buoyancy, or fins for that matter.

You are really contradicting yourself. In this case the Razor would be vastly superior - much lower profile. Are you saying that you'd still opt for the bulkier harness??? This does not make much sense and really starts to feel like flaming at which point you start loosing any credibility.


Exactly! So why are you bringing it up??

Because I think it is obtuse to try and convince people that diving in such a way has any merits in the first place. It is not very safe.




Small cylinders. And dry suit is mandatory for lift.

No, it is mandatory for exposure protection.

Now wait a second - so your argument really is that the Razor is not good for diving LARGE, HEAVY STEELS and STAGES in a wetsuit??? :roll:

Is this what you teach? :clapper

I DO NOT dive this way and do not know any that do. So the Razor suits my needs just fine. But if I do "dense-up" sufficiently and decide to give it a try I might consider a Nomad.

[phillip1]

As others have previously stated:

Rousseau: "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong."

Do me a favor - post a profile picture of a diver in wetsuit at ~30m depth with the same steel cylinder configuration - HP 100's + a stage - would love to see what the Nomad wing would look like.


yeah really...lol

[RN]

As others have previously stated:

Rousseau: "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong."

It was a question, not an insult.


Do me a favor - post a profile picture of a diver in wetsuit at ~30m depth with the same steel cylinder configuration - HP 100's + a stage - would love to see what the Nomad wing would look like.

I don't have one. But I can tell you it would look more streamlined than what Steve's bladder looks like in the video.


Dense would be diving such configuration WET in the first place.

Again, you're trying to argue too many points.






You are really contradicting yourself. In this case the Razor would be vastly superior - much lower profile. Are you saying that you'd still opt for the bulkier harness??? This does not make much sense and really starts to feel like flaming at which point you start loosing any credibility.

No, you are misunderstanding. In passages that small I often won't use anything more than a harness. The wing stays on the boat. You are the one losing credibility by bouncing all over the place with your arguments.




No, it is mandatory for exposure protection.

Now wait a second - so your argument really is that the Razor is not good for diving LARGE, HEAVY STEELS and STAGES in a wetsuit??? :roll:

Is this what you teach? :clapper

I DO NOT dive this way and do not know any that do. So the Razor suits my needs just fine. But if I do "dense-up" sufficiently and decide to give it a try I might consider a Nomad.

No, that's not my argument. Stay with me here. Even with small steel cylinders a dry suit would be necessary to have enough lift to counteract the negative buoyancy characteristics of the steel cylinders. The bladder on the Razor 2 is almost completely inflated in Steve's video with him carrying 6 AL80s. With large, heavy steel cylinders, there would not be enough lift to offset that. Use a dry suit and the bladder will still need to be inflated enough to make the rig NOT streamlined.

My argument here is not that a Nomad is superior in any way. My argument is that the Razor 2 is not designed for use with steel cylinders and therefore should not be.

Is that clear enough?

[NEON]

No, you are misunderstanding. In passages that small I often won't use anything more than a harness. The wing stays on the boat. You are the one losing credibility by bouncing all over the place with your arguments.

No, that's not my argument. Stay with me here. Even with small steel cylinders a dry suit would be necessary to have enough lift to counteract the negative buoyancy characteristics of the steel cylinders. The bladder on the Razor 2 is almost completely inflated in Steve's video with him carrying 6 AL80s. With large, heavy steel cylinders, there would not be enough lift to offset that. Use a dry suit and the bladder will still need to be inflated enough to make the rig NOT streamlined.

My argument here is not that a Nomad is superior in any way. My argument is that the Razor 2 is not designed for use with steel cylinders and therefore should not be.

Is that clear enough?

What is clear is that you would not accept any argument contradicting your allready cemented viewpoint. The proof is in the pudding - I do dive the Razor with steel tanks, it works fine and as the picture illustrates it can be done quite easily. Yes the tanks are not the largest. Fine. They are steels and in fact heavier than Faber LP 95's. Stop spreading misinformation.

[aainslie]

It was a question, not an insult



Surely only a fool would think these things are mutually exclusive?

[TobinGeorge]

My argument here is not that a Nomad is superior in any way. My argument is that the Razor 2 is not designed for use with steel cylinders and therefore should not be.

Is that clear enough?

Were you part of the Razor design Team? If not how you can now state with certainty what the Razor was and was not designed to do?

I have many 100's of dive's in a shell dry suit in cold water (46-mid 50's) using 200-260 cuft of back gas in, "Gasp", steel cylinders, with stage and appropriate deco gases in al tanks.

All of these have been safely conducted using a wing with 49 lbs of Capacity. A Razor2 Bat Wing has 45 lbs of lift.

Tobin

[Greenwood_60]

...is not designed for use with steel cylinders and therefore should not be.

Since when has that ever stopped any of us?

Is there any particular reason NONE of you want to talk numbers? What does a pair of PST LP104s (or Faber 95s, or whatever "big" tanks you want to consider), valves, and regs weight underwater with a cave fill? A liter of water weighs 2.2 lbs, making the biggest MSR bag only 22 lbs of lift. Batwing is rated for 45 lbs of lift. What are we talking for the Armadillo and the Nomad?

[Kerry C.]

Is anyone familiar with the old saying "kicking a dead horse"?

[Merlin Rhoda]

I've been diving my razor2 with steel 120's, a scooter, and occasionally an alu40 of oxygen. I do dive dry but I have never been one for carrying a bubble in my suit. My buddies say I look streamlined in the water and it feels good / works well for me.

Rob, I respect your opinion. What should I be taking a hard look at on my next razor2 / steel tank dive? At what threshold of tanks / weight would you choose to dive a different rig? Is it quantity of lift or location of lift (or both?) that you take issue with?

It amazes me how divided people get on issues like this...

[phillip1]

Uh. I have a question... does 45lbs of Nomad lift more than 45lbs of Razor lift?

[RN]

What is clear is that you would not accept any argument contradicting your allready cemented viewpoint. The proof is in the pudding - I do dive the Razor with steel tanks, it works fine and as the picture illustrates it can be done quite easily. Yes the tanks are not the largest. Fine. They are steels and in fact heavier than Faber LP 95's. Stop spreading misinformation.

You clearly don't understand. I'm done discussing this with you.



Were you part of the Razor design Team? If not how you can now state with certainty what the Razor was and was not designed to do?

Okay, let me rephrase my statement. The Razor 2 is not well designed for use with steel cylinders.




Is there any particular reason NONE of you want to talk numbers? What does a pair of PST LP104s (or Faber 95s, or whatever "big" tanks you want to consider), valves, and regs weight underwater with a cave fill? A liter of water weighs 2.2 lbs, making the biggest MSR bag only 22 lbs of lift. Batwing is rated for 45 lbs of lift. What are we talking for the Armadillo and the Nomad?

I've posted numbers. The issue is not whether the Bat wing has enough lift or not. It definitely does. The issue is the lack of it being streamlined when it is inflated, as in the video I posted.




Rob, I respect your opinion. What should I be taking a hard look at on my next razor2 / steel tank dive? At what threshold of tanks / weight would you choose to dive a different rig? Is it quantity of lift or location of lift (or both?) that you take issue with?

Merlin, like I stated about, it's not the lift. The lift is sufficient. However, I don't believe the wing is placed in the best position it can be in to offer a streamlined rig. Others are arguing that the Razor is the best rig around because it is so streamlined. Yet, in Steve's own video it is close to a foot off his back because nothing is holding it down. Next time you're in the water get someone to shoot some video of you and look at it yourself. What looks streamlined to some may not be streamlined to others.

[gearhound]

I don't think its an issue of those diving the Razor loving their Razor, it's more an issue of those diving the Nomad hating the Razor.

The OP asked if you could dive the Razor with steels and a drysuit. Those that do, chimed in and said you could. They even provided a picture.
Nomad response: Let's see you do that with big steels and lots of stages in a wetsuit (which is not a wise idea).
Nomad response: Get some adult tanks. (100's have always worked for me. I also have hp120 and lp95. It not my fault if you have the breathing rate of a fat kid staring at a bucket of fried chicken, but I don't)

RN, if you are comparing videos, then you should have a look at your own. In your Twin Cave Side Passage video. That modified Nomad is clearly not as streamlined as Bogaerts in his videos (and I know you are diving steels). Look at the 2:53 mark when the diver turns and we get a side profile. That wing is clearly above his head.

Now, I understand that some of you prefer to have the buoyancy higher up on you back. For me, I prefer it low, in the small of my back. My chest measurement exceeds my waist measurement, so I'm actually more streamlined that way. I understand that that is not always the case with everyone.

I will say the Razor users seem more open minded. They either own or have tried other systems, and they prefer their Razor. But, it seems like they have kept an open mind about it.

Back to the OP: Is the training worth it?
Most guides are $200/day in Mexico, so you're paying an extra $100 for instruction. I think it includes video analysis. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Uh. I have a question... does 45lbs of Nomad lift more than 45lbs of Razor lift?

The 45# Nomad wing wasn't enough lift for HP130s at 130'(backgas only, no stages), diving wet. The Nomad increased their lift capacity by the second generation. As did the Armadillo.


Does that answer your question??? Nomads and Armadillos adapted to the meet the needs of requiring more lift.

[Merlin Rhoda]

... Merlin, like I stated about, it's not the lift. The lift is sufficient. However, I don't believe the wing is placed in the best position it can be in to offer a streamlined rig. Others are arguing that the Razor is the best rig around because it is so streamlined. Yet, in Steve's own video it is close to a foot off his back because nothing is holding it down. Next time you're in the water get someone to shoot some video of you and look at it yourself. What looks streamlined to some may not be streamlined to others.

Thanks for clarifying. I'll take your suggestion.

The sides of the wing are held down with a bungee that goes around the front of the body and through the loop in the crotch strap. After my last dive I tightened the bungee to keep the wing from lifting up as much. I'll schedule an afternoon to take pictures and video with various weight loads...

[Slüdge]

Most guides are $200/day in Mexico

Seriously?

[TobinGeorge]

Okay, let me rephrase my statement. The Razor 2 is not well designed for use with steel cylinders.

Says the man who doesn't own and apparently hasn't used the goods in question.



I've posted numbers. The issue is not whether the Bat wing has enough lift or not. It definitely does. The issue is the lack of it being streamlined when it is inflated, as in the video I posted.

If a diver is properly ballasted any bc is only compensating for the weight of the gas.

300 cuft of air or nitrox is ~24 lbs, much less as the He% goes up. I would seldom have 300 cuft of nitrox.....

Why not use a 24 lbs wing? Simple, I want something to compensate for a total drysuit failure, i.e. a suit that cannot trap gas. My drysuit is about 21 lbs positive with minimum gas in it. In the unlikely event that I lost all the buoyancy from my suit while I had full back gas tanks I can replace this lost buoyancy by fully inflating my bc.

Gas = 24 lbs (or less) Suit = 21 24 + 21 = 45 That makes a 45 lbs a reasonable choice.

Am I concerned with stream lining during a total drysuit failure? No not really.

Am I concerned with streamlining while carrying 4+ stages? No, not really

Is the BAT wing pretty damned streamlined when it has ~20-24 lbs of gas in it? Yup fits right in the small of your back.



Merlin, like I stated about, it's not the lift. The lift is sufficient. However, I don't believe the wing is placed in the best position it can be in to offer a streamlined rig. Others are arguing that the Razor is the best rig around because it is so streamlined. Yet, in Steve's own video it is close to a foot off his back because nothing is holding it down.

Simply not true. The Bat wing, like all inflatables, tries to become a sphere when fully inflated, but it is attached at 4 points and does not lift off the diver.

Rob, It's great that you have a solution that suits your needs. I know you have a lot of time in extensively modifying various rigs for your diving style. Your students seem well served, I just spent 3 days diving cold water with one of your recent SM students.

What surprises me is your rush to comment on goods you don't own, and couldn't possibly spent any significant time using simply based on how recently they have been on the market.

Lacking specific training and experience on these goods, you choose to base your comments on a few minutes of internet video. That seems like a huge leap.

Tobin

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I don't think its an issue of those diving the Razor loving their Razor, it's more an issue of those diving the Nomad hating the Razor.

Who hates the Razor? I think its overpriced, and isn't ideal for when you need to carry alot of gas for bigger dives. Do I hate it? Nah, I'd probably buy one if it were $350-400 wing included :)


The OP asked if you could dive the Razor with steels and a drysuit. Those that do, chimed in and said you could. They even provided a picture.
Nomad response: Let's see you do that with big steels and lots of stages in a wetsuit (which is not a wise idea).
Nomad response: Get some adult tanks. (100's have always worked for me. I also have hp120 and lp95. It not my fault if you have the breathing rate of a fat kid staring at a bucket of fried chicken, but I don't)

This is obviously a difference in diving. Some of us are doing dives that do infact require more gas, even with consumption rates. Dives where a couple of steel 100s would require an extra stage, comparitively to just diving some bigger tanks in the first place. I know this concept is lost on you.


This isn't the Nomad user vs the Razor user... this is experience vs fantasy.

[gearhound]

this is experience vs fantasy.

Then I'll ask again, how much experience do you have with the Razor? Because you seem to be telling guys that design,own, and build them that they don't know what they're talking about.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

If a diver is properly ballasted any bc is only compensating for the weight of the gas.

300 cuft of air or nitrox is ~24 lbs, much less as the He% goes up. I would seldom have 300 cuft of nitrox.....

Why not use a 24 lbs wing? Simple, I want something to compensate for a total drysuit failure, i.e. a suit that cannot trap gas. My drysuit is about 21 lbs positive with minimum gas in it. In the unlikely event that I lost all the buoyancy from my suit while I had full back gas tanks I can replace this lost buoyancy by fully inflating my bc.

Gas = 24 lbs (or less) Suit = 21 24 + 21 = 45 That makes a 45 lbs a reasonable choice.

Am I concerned with stream lining during a total drysuit failure? No not really.

Am I concerned with streamlining while carrying 4+ stages? No, not really

If balancing your setup requires having the redundant lift in your exposure protection, why did you guys even make a redundant bladder Bat Wing?


I, for one, would be much more interested in a single bladder. I'd assume it'd be cheaper as well.






The important thing is to have redundant lift, whether it be a redundant wing bladder, or via your exposure protection... I don't buy YOUR version of a balanced rig. If wearing some heavier tanks means I don't have to carry two extra tanks, than thats a huge plus for me. As long as I've got adaquate redundant bouyancy, wherever that bouyancy comes from(within reason - swimming out on a lift bag in a cave doesn't cut it), I'm happy.

I know for a fact that at 120', the original Nomad wing is at capacity, diving wet with HP130s in fresh water. Thats without stages, and without deco bottles... 45lbs is not sufficient for everyone.

[phillip1]

I agree I would not have bought a redundant bladder either, I do not need it really and I do not want an extra inflator hose and the added bulk, however the Razor 2 one is genius, the redundant side is oral and the wing has the same low profile when the redundant side is not in use, you don't even know it's there.
Also I have ended up using the wing as an oral unit too and it works great too and Thomas even uses it exclusively oral (I know that sounds wrong).

[RN]

I don't think its an issue of those diving the Razor loving their Razor, it's more an issue of those diving the Nomad hating the Razor.

I don't see anything in this thread that anyone hates the Razor. What I see is people who dive different configurations pointing out some of the shortcomings of the Razor.


The OP asked if you could dive the Razor with steels and a drysuit. Those that do, chimed in and said you could. They even provided a picture.
Nomad response: Let's see you do that with big steels and lots of stages in a wetsuit (which is not a wise idea).

Who said that anything about diving it in a wetsuit?


Nomad response: Get some adult tanks. (100's have always worked for me. I also have hp120 and lp95. It not my fault if you have the breathing rate of a fat kid staring at a bucket of fried chicken, but I don't)

Not all caves are 30' average depth. My RMV is about .4. I think Mat's is better. Whose breathing rate are you referring to?


RN, if you are comparing videos, then you should have a look at your own. In your Twin Cave Side Passage video. That modified Nomad is clearly not as streamlined as Bogaerts in his videos (and I know you are diving steels). Look at the 2:53 mark when the diver turns and we get a side profile. That wing is clearly above his head.

That's not me in the video. The only video on my website of me is the Cypress Springs video in which the rig I'm diving is more streamlined than anything else out there, but that would be because there's no wing at all. Yes, the diver in the video has a higher profile, but that's his choice. I don't force my students to make any modifications. I present all possible modifications and let them choose. That diver wasn't interested in diving small cave passage so he didn't have a reason for making it perfectly streamlined.


Now, I understand that some of you prefer to have the buoyancy higher up on you back. For me, I prefer it low, in the small of my back. My chest measurement exceeds my waist measurement, so I'm actually more streamlined that way. I understand that that is not always the case with everyone.

I will say the Razor users seem more open minded. They either own or have tried other systems, and they prefer their Razor. But, it seems like they have kept an open mind about it.

I am seeing it completely different than that. The Razor proponents seem to be very close minded in this discussion



Says the man who doesn't own and apparently hasn't used the goods in question.

I don't need to dive it when I can watch the man who designed it dive it in his own video.


If a diver is properly ballasted any bc is only compensating for the weight of the gas.

300 cuft of air or nitrox is ~24 lbs, much less as the He% goes up. I would seldom have 300 cuft of nitrox.....

Again, the only ballast I dive with is my cylinders. I dive LP95s on a regular basis. That is 259 cf of nitrox. Sometimes I have to bring a stage cylinder or 2 to do the dives I plan. That's another 160 cf of nitrox. Stop being so myopic, Tobin. There are lots of divers that do dives that require more than 300 cf of nitrox on a single dive. The Razor doesn't meet their needs. This isn't a slam on the Razor. If you would take it as constructive feedback and design a wing that can accommodate those of us that dive with heavy steel cylinders you might open the product up to a larger market. Instead you sit there behind your computer and alienate this potential market by stating we're all gas sucking, over weighted, testosterone overflowing, macho men.


Merlin, if you want to send me videos/photos of your next dive, I'll be glad to take a look at them and offer a critique. I even have a couple of solutions to the wing issue I'm seeing. (Yes, Tobin, just from watching a few videos.) Just PM me or send an e-mail. I'm done with this dead horse. I should have listened to OFG sooner.

[TobinGeorge]

If balancing your setup requires having the redundant lift in your exposure protection, why did you guys even make a redundant bladder Bat Wing?


It doesn't, but the redundant features could be added at modest additional cost, and effectively no impact on function so why not.



I, for one, would be much more interested in a single bladder. I'd assume it'd be cheaper as well.


Not by very much.



The important thing is to have redundant lift, whether it be a redundant wing bladder, or via your exposure protection... I don't buy YOUR version of a balanced rig. If wearing some heavier tanks means I don't have to carry two extra tanks, than thats a huge plus for me. As long as I've got adaquate redundant bouyancy, wherever that bouyancy comes from(within reason - swimming out on a lift bag in a cave doesn't cut it), I'm happy.


Fine, I'm completely at peace with that. I'm pretty content that my approach to weighting is conservative and reliable, with a large margin to accommodate failures. If you want to do something else please feel free.


I know for a fact that at 120', the original Nomad wing is at capacity, diving wet with HP130s in fresh water. Thats without stages, and without deco bottles... 45lbs is not sufficient for everyone.

Humm, I seem to recall an admonition to avoid big steel doubles in a wetsuit :)

Again the focus on wing capacity vs tank material or even tank buoyancy is way off the mark.

Proper weighting and required wing capacity starts with the buoyancy of the divers exposure protection, and volume of the gas carried.

Divers need larger BC's when the combination of suit buoyancy and gas volume (or gas weight) exceed the lift of the BC.

Tobin

[TobinGeorge]

i don't need to dive it when i can watch the man who designed it dive it in his own video.

Ya OK. One video made for a specific purpose (multiple aluminum stages) is now your sole source for declaring the Razor as unfit for use with steel tanks.


Again, the only ballast i dive with is my cylinders. I dive lp95s on a regular basis. That is 259 cf of nitrox. Sometimes i have to bring a stage cylinder or 2 to do the dives i plan. That's another 160 cf of nitrox. Stop being so myopic, tobin. There are lots of divers that do dives that require more than 300 cf of nitrox on a single dive. The razor doesn't meet their needs. This isn't a slam on the razor. If you would take it as constructive feedback and design a wing that can accommodate those of us that dive with heavy steel cylinders you might open the product up to a larger market. Instead you sit there behind your computer and alienate this potential market by stating we're all gas sucking, over weighted, testosterone overflowing, macho men.

Please. Get a grip.

Where have I called anybody a gas sucker?

I don't need to call anybody overweighted, you and others have volunteered that you "must" dive over weighted.

I'm not one making reference to "grown up, big boy tanks"

The fact remains that divers are successfully using the Razor2, right now, as is, for exactly the dives you claim it's unfit for, without even trying it.

Tobin

[phillip1]

There is NO WAY anyone can claim a harness does not work if they have not actually tried it, period. I respect anyone's opinion who after trying both chooses a Nomad over a Razor, but unless you actually dive a Razor you have ZERO idea of how it would or would not work.
The same goes for a Nomad too, unless you actually try one how are you to know if it does or does not work?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

There is NO WAY anyone can claim a harness does not work if they have not actually tried it, period. I respect anyone's opinion who after trying both chooses a Nomad over a Razor, but unless you actually dive a Razor you have ZERO idea of how it would or would not work.
The same goes for a Nomad too, unless you actually try one how are you to know if it does or does not work?

Says the guy who screams bloody murder when someone says the Razor isn't suited for heavy steels...



Humm, I seem to recall an admonition to avoid big steel doubles in a wetsuit :)

With an adaquate and redundant wing, why not?



Again the focus on wing capacity vs tank material or even tank buoyancy is way off the mark.

Proper weighting and required wing capacity starts with the buoyancy of the divers exposure protection, and volume of the gas carried.

Divers need larger BC's when the combination of suit buoyancy and gas volume (or gas weight) exceed the lift of the BC.

Tobin

We get it, you sell wings, its gotta be something else's fault.

[TobinGeorge]

We get it, you sell wings, its gotta be something else's fault.

Wow, that a leap even for you.

Tobin

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Isn't the internet made for pushing buttons? ;)

[break4]

Ok let me try my best that this treat doesn't become boring :)
In the video below you can see Steve in a short video made in Malta. I don't know why, but it looks to me, that he is quite used to dive in a dry suit and steels as well and to me it looks streamlined as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcJgJJrFz-4

A shame that I wasn't there with my camera. I would have loved to show you more of it.
From the course he teached there, 6 of 6 students bought the system afterwards without any need to do it.
Sometimes it's just worth to try out something new.

So I'm out for diving again...
Cheers and have fun diving in which configuration ever :)

[phillip1]

I am saying that the Razor 2 now has more than enough lift for steels, wether one person likes it or not is another question but the specs lift wise are on par with any harness you guys are already using for steels, so the argument of lift is totally irrelevant.

[ffdiver5597]

I'll admit, the video of steve diving the mama vina with the original razor is what got me into considering sidemount in the first place.

With regards to the video with the steel cylinders on the wreck in Malta, if that was the first video put out as a promotional video, I wouldn't have bought into the system.

He just looks much more comfortable in the Mexico video.

[Greenwood_60]

I just noticed DSS sells the razor2 plates for $40 each... I like that.

[phillip1]

Isn't the internet made for pushing buttons? ;)

yes it most definitely is.

No I don't dive steel tanks but all I am saying is that the Razor 2 now has 45lbs of lift, if that is not enough lift then for sure the 35lbs of the Armadillo is not even close to enough lift and the 50lbs of the new Nomad either, unless and extra 5lbs would be make suuuuch a big difference.
All things being equal if you try the Razor 2 and don't like it fine no problemo, if you think it is too expensive fine no problemo either but all this BS about the lift....please that is just such BS.

A good friend of mine and someone who is up there with Steve diving wise does not use a Razor and has been diving an Armadillo all these years but the BIG difference between him and pretty much all the people who are criticizing the Razor in this thread is that he did train with Steve and more importantly he did dive the Razor a lot and made up his mind AFTER trying both, he did not like the MSR bag system but gave the Razor a real testing.
Actually that person is now considering the Razor 2 since it now has a great lift system and power inflator.

I think that unless you are a super gnarly deep diver with tons of gear, many many deco bottles, bottom gas, 3 scooters etc.. well if 45lbs of lift and a dry suit or thick wetsuit (cause I doubt that in FL anyone will dive less than a 7mm with a thick hood too) well if that 45lbs of lift is not enough lift then maybe you are doing something wrong and diving way too heavy..just a thought.
If you are that diver then maybe you should really consider diving a Razor 2 cause it has an extra 45lbs of redundant lift, you probably will really need that extra 45lbs should the primary side fail...lol

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Ok let me try my best that this treat doesn't become boring :)
In the video below you can see Steve in a short video made in Malta. I don't know why, but it looks to me, that he is quite used to dive in a dry suit and steels as well and to me it looks streamlined as well.
:)

Saltwater and backgas only? Need not apply.



No I don't dive steel tanks but all I am saying is that the Razor 2 now has 45lbs of lift, if that is not enough lift then for sure the 35lbs of the Armadillo is not even close to enough lift and the 50lbs of the new Nomad either, unless and extra 5lbs would be make suuuuch a big difference.
All things being equal if you try the Razor 2 and don't like it fine no problemo, if you think it is too expensive fine no problemo either but all this BS about the lift....please that is just such BS.

Its not BS that I've had the original Nomad(45 lbs lift) filled to capacity at 120' and me having to keep an upward moment to keep from sinking. This was while diving wet with HP130s only, no stages, and my deco tanks were dropped at the entrance. 45 lbs is NOT enough, and I even keep a bit of bioprene handy that gives me an edge up.

Quit talking out of your ass.



I think that unless you are a super gnarly deep diver with tons of gear, many many deco bottles, bottom gas, 3 scooters etc.. well if 45lbs of lift and a dry suit or thick wetsuit (cause I doubt that in FL anyone will dive less than a 7mm with a thick hood too) well if that 45lbs of lift is not enough lift then maybe you are doing something wrong and diving way too heavy..just a thought.
If you are that diver then maybe you should really consider diving a Razor 2 cause it has an extra 45lbs of redundant lift, you probably will really need that extra 45lbs should the primary side fail...lol

Phillip - we dive balanced setups, whether that redundant bouyancy comes from a drysuit or a redundant wing, its there. I've got WAY more cave dives in FL wet than I do dry. 5mm, and I very rarely wear a hood. I've maxed out 45 lbs of lift with a set of HP130s, without stages or deco. I can max out 45 lbs of lift with HP130s a couple stages, and deco gas pretty easily.

5 lbs helps, I know 45 lbs ain't enough.

[aainslie]

Jesus. This is so freaking simple.

Razor is nice and small. Works great with wetsuit and AL's or drysuit and steels. Clearly since there isn't much buoyancy you need to be pretty neutral.

Nomad is more flexible, with the downside that it's also bigger.

BTW this bullshit about having to compensate for a blown drysuit is total crap. The one time I put a 4 inch tear in the top of my drysuit (high on the shoulder) I was wearing steels, 3 stages and a Razor. I had no problem putting a bubble in my legs and small of my back and exited freezing but neutral. I was using a sweet little wing that Tobin modified for me with around 15 lbs lift.

For chrissakes why is this still drivelling on with excessive claims from both sides?

Horses for courses, for crying out loud. I love them both.

[TobinGeorge]

Its not BS that I've had the original Nomad(45 lbs lift) filled to capacity at 120' and me having to keep an upward moment to keep from sinking. This was while diving wet with HP130s only, no stages, and my deco tanks were dropped at the entrance. 45 lbs is NOT enough, and I even keep a bit of bioprene handy that gives me an edge up.


Out of curiosity what sort of analytical plan lead you to be negative at 120 without enough bc capacity?

"Let's jump in and see if this works" seems foolhardly to me.

If you know the initial buoyancy of your suit and the characteristics of your cylinders this is entirely avoidable.

Tobin

[Slüdge]

You know, before I got a drysuit I wore a 3mm wetsuit in the Florida caves. And I'm a born and bred Southerner!

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Out of curiosity what sort of analytical plan lead you to be negative at 120 without enough bc capacity?

"Let's jump in and see if this works" seems foolhardly to me.

If you know the initial buoyancy of your suit and the characteristics of your cylinders this is entirely avoidable.

Tobin

Yeah, I've been foolhardy before. I learned.


Have you never done anything foolish? LOL

[TobinGeorge]

Yeah, I've been foolhardy before. I learned.


Have you never done anything foolish? LOL

Plenty, and I've been lucky enough to survive them so far.

It does however give one pause when discussing weighting and wing lift to have such an easily avoided example provided by those with an opposing opinion.

Makes me go Hummmm.

Tobin

[Bobby]

Jesus. This is so freaking simple.

Razor is nice and small. Works great with wetsuit and AL's or drysuit and steels. Clearly since there isn't much buoyancy you need to be pretty neutral.

Nomad is more flexible, with the downside that it's also bigger.

BTW this bullshit about having to compensate for a blown drysuit is total crap. The one time I put a 4 inch tear in the top of my drysuit (high on the shoulder) I was wearing steels, 3 stages and a Razor. I had no problem putting a bubble in my legs and small of my back and exited freezing but neutral. I was using a sweet little wing that Tobin modified for me with around 15 lbs lift.

For chrissakes why is this still drivelling on with excessive claims from both sides?

Horses for courses, for crying out loud. I love them both.

Dude,
Your such a stroke!!! If you had Weezles on then you would not have "froze your but off". Other than that you are spot on. ;)

Bobby

[Greenwood_60]

You know, before I got a drysuit I wore a 3mm wetsuit in the Florida caves. And I'm a born and bred Southerner!

I dived the caverns around here for years in a 3mm Shorty. I now dive in a 5mm full. When I wear my hood I get too hot unless I'm sitting around.

[phillip1]

You know, before I got a drysuit I wore a 3mm wetsuit in the Florida caves. And I'm a born and bred Southerner!

I think I would freeze to death, funny I used to surf in France all winter long like 8C water with a 5MM but living here made me loose ALL my immunity to the cold, I even use a 5MM in the ocean.

[phillip1]

Uhh ok.. then if the Razor has 45lbs of lift the exact same amount as your original Nomad then you could use the Razor in the exact same way (provided you liked it of course) as your Nomad since it had 45lbs of lift.
Have you ever tried a Razor? have ever physically seen one?
Come to think of it 130's would be kind of cool to have here though, in long but hard access caves, it would be way less stages to haul around UW. Donkeys can dive up 6 AL80's with no BC device of any kind. Horses however prefer just two AL 80's and for some reason don't like long penetrations they never use stages.
I will ask around about steel tanks not really sure but I think the donkeys would here definitely like them.
44064411

[mdax]

that inner tube would in no way provide enough lift, he needs to stay with aluminum 80's.

[phillip1]

The 45# Nomad wing wasn't enough lift for HP130s at 130'(backgas only, no stages), diving wet. The Nomad increased their lift capacity by the second generation. As did the Armadillo.


Does that answer your question??? Nomads and Armadillos adapted to the meet the needs of requiring more lift.

uh to my knowledge the Armadillo A2 (the new one) still only has 35lbs of lift and to my knowledge the original Armadillo always only had 35lbs, so I am not sure what increase you are talking about.
The original Nomad (still the best Nomad model IMO) had 45lbs and the new JT now has 50lbs.
In the Razor's defense it went from having no lift to 45lbs, that's an increase of 45lbs VS the Nomad's increase of only 5lbs, to me it looks like a much bigger effort to actually really suit the market's needs...lol

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Phillip - your reasoning is incredibly weak

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Plenty, and I've been lucky enough to survive them so far.

It does however give one pause when discussing weighting and wing lift to have such an easily avoided example provided by those with an opposing opinion.

Makes me go Hummmm.

Tobin

Apparently I survived them as well. Learned from them too. Go hummmm all you want, I can admit that I've done stupid things in the past, its how I got here today and gained the knowledge in which I'm posting.


You preach having enough bouyancy in your exposure suit to offset a total loss of wing and still make redundant bladder wings, thats pretty mind boggling. Kinda makes you go hummm when discussing weighting and wing lift.

[TobinGeorge]

You preach having enough bouyancy in your exposure suit to offset a total loss of wing and still make redundant bladder wings, thats pretty mind boggling. Kinda makes you go hummm when discussing weighting and wing lift.

Now you are really reaching.

You still don't get it. Total ballast should not exceed the initial buoyancy of the suit, that leaves the wing to deal with the weight of the gas.

Building one unique redundant wing that's useable with drysuits or wetsuits doesn't change proper weighting.

Tobin

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Or the wing can deal with the total ballast and the weight of the gas, keep a redundant bouyancy provider that can do the same, whether it be your exposure protection, or another bladder.

[NEON]

Or the wing can deal with the total ballast and the weight of the gas, keep a redundant bouyancy provider that can do the same, whether it be your exposure protection, or another bladder.

Well sure, you could do that - does not mean your rig is balanced - you'd still be diving overweight, redundant wing or not.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

If the alternatives are using less streamlined drysuits or carrying hordes of AL80s instead of a couple steels, I'm perfectly content.

[FW]

Now you are really reaching.

You still don't get it. Total ballast should not exceed the initial buoyancy of the suit, that leaves the wing to deal with the weight of the gas.

Building one unique redundant wing that's useable with drysuits or wetsuits doesn't change proper weighting.

Tobin
I am trying to stay out of this discussion, but the main issue is the term "ballast". Florida cave divers generally don't wear any lead at all. The tanks are more than heavy enough to hold down a drysuit, and the normal undergarments used down there. A set of 104/130s are the most popular tanks for backmount, and also for many sidemount divers (including myself).

I don't use a thick undergarment, and also don't keep any more gas in the suit than needed to keep it from pinching me. As a result it takes a lot of bouyancy just to keep me neutral. This is what both SuPrBuGmAn and RN are trying to explain. 45 pounds will work, as long as I don't have any stages, or the steel 45 I use for O2.

It isn't about the Razor, or the Nomad. It is about physics, which is very lacking in all of the above discussion.

[gearhound]

How many people on here dive dry in cold water with steel tanks?

BTW great forum and a great cast of characters in here:clapper

But the original question was who dives in cold water with steel tanks, not who dives in Florida with 130s and stages.

[TobinGeorge]

I am trying to stay out of this discussion, but the main issue is the term "ballast". Florida cave divers generally don't wear any lead at all. The tanks are more than heavy enough to hold down a drysuit, and the normal undergarments used down there. A set of 104/130s are the most popular tanks for backmount, and also for many sidemount divers (including myself).

I don't use a thick undergarment, and also don't keep any more gas in the suit than needed to keep it from pinching me. As a result it takes a lot of bouyancy just to keep me neutral. This is what both SuPrBuGmAn and RN are trying to explain. 45 pounds will work, as long as I don't have any stages, or the steel 45 I use for O2.

It isn't about the Razor, or the Nomad. It is about physics, which is very lacking in all of the above discussion.

E-8's are -10.5 full, and -1.5 empty. (104's maybe -5)

Regs are about -2 each

Can Light -2 (Post 2005 ish)

Harness stainless ~-1

Misc other hardware -2

2 x 130's -3
2 x regs -4
Can Light -2
Harness -1
Misc -2

Total 12 lbs. If your drysuit is +12 or more the wing will only be offsetting the gas.


Even with full 130's (lets say -12 each with a moderate overfill)

Full 130's 2 x 12 = -24
Regs 2 x 2 = -4
Can light -2
Harness -1
Misc -2

Total -33 Hard to see how 45 lbs of lift is not enough.

I would speculate that the reports of 45 lbs being insufficient are the result of BC's that could not provide their rated lift, maybe due to how they were rigged.

Tobin

[OFG-1]

It isn't about the Razor, or the Nomad. It is about physics, which is very lacking in all of the above discussion.

Forrest, now you have done it. You have interjected science into this discussion. That could lead to mathematics, and we all know that figures don't lie, but liars figure.

EDIT - Well now I have to edit this, it was originally a joke, but now Tobin is actually doing math and I don't want to insinuate that he is a liar. Or a mathematician. Or physicist. Or Republican. Come on, it was just a joke.........

[FW]

E-8's are -10.5 full, and -1.5 empty. (104's maybe -5)

Regs are about -2 each

Can Light -2 (Post 2005 ish)

Harness stainless ~-1

Misc other hardware -2

2 x 130's -3
2 x regs -4
Can Light -2
Harness -1
Misc -2

Total 12 lbs. If your drysuit is +12 or more the wing will only be offsetting the gas.


Even with full 130's (lets say -12 each with a moderate overfill)

Full 130's 2 x 12 = -24
Regs 2 x 2 = -4
Can light -2
Harness -1
Misc -2

Total -33 Hard to see how 45 lbs of lift is not enough.

I would speculate that the reports of 45 lbs being insufficient are the result of BC's that could not provide their rated lift, maybe due to how they were rigged.

Tobin

You left out reels, backup lights, knives, etc. Rather than argue, I will take a fish scale and weight my rig this weekend :-)
P.S. we don't "moderately overfill".

[TobinGeorge]

You left out reels, backup lights, knives, etc. Rather than argue, I will take a fish scale and weight my rig this weekend :-)
P.S. we don't "moderately overfill".

What do you pump E-8's to?

Tobin

[TobinGeorge]

You left out reels, backup lights, knives, etc.

Most of which is only slightly negative. A Delrin reel (acetal SG ~1.40) filled with polymide line (SG 1.2) isn't going to be very negative.

I did add 2 lbs for misc.

Tobin

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I would speculate that the reports of 45 lbs being insufficient are the result of BC's that could not provide their rated lift, maybe due to how they were rigged.

Tobin

...and then there's the short term memory loss since the "reports"(atleast mine) were that I was diving wet. Significantly less than 12 lbs of bouyancy, regardless of all the other basic gear that you simply forgot to calculate.




Assuming 12 lbs bouyant drysuit, 3 AL80s/stages/deco(by your numbers) will account for that amount of lift anyway.


Either way, dives get made that 45 lbs of lift is simply not enough. There's plenty to do out there within the Bat wings reach, but its not a singular answer to all dives.

[TobinGeorge]

...and then there's the short term memory loss since the "reports"(atleast mine) were that I was diving wet. Significantly less than 12 lbs of bouyancy, regardless of all the other basic gear that you simply forgot to calculate.


Ok, dazzle me. What did I forget and what is the buoyancy of these items?



Assuming 12 lbs bouyant drysuit, 3 AL80s/stages/deco(by your numbers) will account for that amount of lift anyway.


Humm, I thought you were diving big steels to avoid stages. Guess your argument requires an ever moving target.



Either way, dives get made that 45 lbs of lift is simply not enough. There's plenty to do out there within the Bat wings reach, but its not a singular answer to all dives.

I have never said the Razor is *The* universal solution, never, not once.

Why do you continue to make this false claim?

I do take exception to the blanket claims that the Razor can't be used with steel tanks.

Tobin

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Ok, dazzle me. What did I forget and what is the buoyancy of these items?

See FW comments.


Humm, I thought you were diving big steels to avoid stages. Guess your argument requires an ever moving target.

My arguement requires a little common sense. You do realize people dive big steel tanks AND stages right? Diving two high capacity steels can keep can you from having to carry two additional stages ontop of smaller capacity tanks. This is easy logic and not a far fetched dive by any means whatsoever.


I have never said the Razor is *The* universal solution, never, not once.

Why do you continue to make this false claim?

You are not the only person participating in this thread. You also seem to take offense to saying 45 lbs lift is not adaquate for some dives(see the last few pages of this thread).


I do take exception to the blanket claims that the Razor can't be used with steel tanks.

Tobin

I would too, there's a great many of small, light low capacity steels that would work just fine :) and given a bouyant suit, it'll work for heavier steels if you don't need additional gas ontop of that - ie several stages and deco bottles(something thats fairly regular in these parts).

[icestac]

What do you pump E-8's to?

4000

or so I hear... :)

[TobinGeorge]

4000

or so I hear... :)


That a "modest" overfill for a 3442 tank, at least in my book.

Tobin

[TobinGeorge]

See FW comments.



My arguement requires a little common sense. You do realize people dive big steel tanks AND stages right? Diving two high capacity steels can keep can you from having to carry two additional stages ontop of smaller capacity tanks. This is easy logic and not a far fetched dive by any means whatsoever.



You are not the only person participating in this thread. You also seem to take offense to saying 45 lbs lift is not adaquate for some dives(see the last few pages of this thread).



I would too, there's a great many of small, light low capacity steels that would work just fine :) and given a bouyant suit, it'll work for heavier steels if you don't need additional gas ontop of that - ie several stages and deco bottles(something thats fairly regular in these parts).

So I take it you can't answer any of my questions, or provide a single instance where I claimed the Razor was the single answer for all diving.

Tobin

[icestac]

That a "modest" overfill for a 3442 tank, at least in my book.

For what it is worth, we do the same for LP cylinders as well and those are more common in cave country IMO.

Cheers,
Jeff

[SuPrBuGmAn]

LOL, just because you don't agree with the answers, doesn't mean they aren't staring you in the face.

[TobinGeorge]

For what it is worth, we do the same for LP cylinders as well and those are more common in cave country IMO.

Cheers,
Jeff

Ya, no doubt, but the example here was 130's A 130 at 4k holds less than 12 lbs of gas.

A 108 at 4 k hold a bit under 13 lbs.

Tobin

[Slüdge]

4000? I don't think I'd do that. We have pumped 2400s to 3600 for decades, with no ill effects. But I think 4000 is pushing it.

(It's the same tank.)

[Greenwood_60]

Don't forget some divers are less buoyant than others. As fat as I am these days, I still sink. I begin to float with a 3mm shorty, but that is gone at depth. Even in my 5mm, at 100' I have no question my wing has to float my ass as well as my tanks.

Here is my conclusion (Dry/Wet):
Razor2 w AL80s = Yes/Yes
Razor2 w AA85s = Yes/Yes
Razor2 w AA104s = Yes/Maybe
Razor2 w AA85s + AL80s = Yes/Maybe
Razor2 w AA104s + AL80s = Maybe/No

and most importantly:
Razor2 w AL80s + AL80s + AL80s = Yes/Yes

Does anyone have a problem with those? The "Maybe"s will depend on other factors (suit, body, peripheral gear).

[icestac]

4000? I don't think I'd do that. We have pumped 2400s to 3600 for decades, with no ill effects. But I think 4000 is pushing it.

Whatever, you wear purple!

That is the max that I go to, but have been known to do it at times. I'd say typical is 3600-3900. Anything less would only be acceptable to CCR divers :)

Cheers,
Jeff

[Merlin Rhoda]

The -2 pounds for pocket contents struck me as a little light so I did as Forrest suggested and weighed mine. In the first picture you can see that the dry weight is 9 lbs 3 oz. In the last picture you can see that the wet weight is 3 lbs 4 oz (no, nothing is resting on the bottom but the helmet does float slightly).

441244144413


Inventory:
- helmet with two backup lights
- primary reel
- bottom timer
- zcutter
- compass
- scout backup light
- 6 spools
- backup knife
- backup mask
- backup bottom timer
- 2 sets of arrows/cookies
- 2 extra double enders
- 6" stainless wrench
- sensus data logger
- extra mouthpiece
- cylinder leash
- wetnotes

Others may carry more gear than I.

So Tobin, your 2 lb number doesn't match my gear config but we're in the neighborhood at 3.25 lbs.

To go back to the balanced rig discussion:

2 x LP108's -5 (empty, with valves, these are the tanks I have)
2 x regs -4
Can Light -2
Harness -1
Misc -4 (to choose a whole number greater than what I just weighed)
----
16 lbs

My 6'4" hydro-dynamically shaped self with a light undergarment and CF200 drysuit needs more than 16 lbs to sink. The wing only needs to account for the weight of the gas in the tanks and the total weight of any stages or deco cylinders I add.

LP108's at 4k hold 320cf of gas. That puts the weight at around 26 lbs (assuming 0.0807 lbs/cf).

If I dive two alu80 stages and two alu40 deco cylinders then I'm looking at:

primary gas -26 lbs
2x stage cylinders (full) -3 lbs
2x deco cylinders (full) -1.5 lbs
4x regs -8 lbs
-----
38.5 lbs


So 45 pounds of lift assuming you carry any lead at all is enough to dive LP108's@4k, 2 stages, 2 deco. I'd argue that it's not enough to comfortably have a conversation on the surface or do any kind of surface swim unless extra gas is put in the drysuit for buoyancy, a technique I dislike.

For divers who are neutral with empty tanks and no lead or divers who use steel deco cylinders the above configuration is too much for 45 lbs of lift.

It's not the be all, end all rig, but within its limits it's a really nice piece of equipment.

[TobinGeorge]

Don't forget some divers are less buoyant than others. As fat as I am these days, I still sink. I begin to float with a 3mm shorty, but that is gone at depth. Even in my 5mm, at 100' I have no question my wing has to float my ass as well as my tanks.

Here is my conclusion (Dry/Wet):
Razor2 w AL80s = Yes/Yes
Razor2 w AA85s = Yes/Yes
Razor2 w AA104s = Yes/Maybe
Razor2 w AA85s + AL80s = Yes/Maybe
Razor2 w AA104s + AL80s = Maybe/No

and most importantly:
Razor2 w AL80s + AL80s + AL80s = Yes/Yes

Does anyone have a problem with those? The "Maybe"s will depend on other factors (suit, body, peripheral gear).

Thanks. A thinking mans analysis, what a concept.

Tobin

[Merlin Rhoda]

Don't forget some divers are less buoyant than others. As fat as I am these days, I still sink. I begin to float with a 3mm shorty, but that is gone at depth. Even in my 5mm, at 100' I have no question my wing has to float my ass as well as my tanks.

Here is my conclusion (Dry/Wet):
Razor2 w AL80s = Yes/Yes
Razor2 w AA85s = Yes/Yes
Razor2 w AA104s = Yes/Maybe
Razor2 w AA85s + AL80s = Yes/Maybe
Razor2 w AA104s + AL80s = Maybe/No

and most importantly:
Razor2 w AL80s + AL80s + AL80s = Yes/Yes

Does anyone have a problem with those? The "Maybe"s will depend on other factors (suit, body, peripheral gear).

I think you came to the same conclusion I did but in a much simpler and understandable way. :)

As my long winded post says - 104's plus 2x80's plus 2x40's works if you are a bit buoyant but is still borderline...

[chimie007]

For the record, I have done dives (in fresh water) with 2 x 104 + 2 x 80 + 1 x 40 using a SM system with a DR rec wing (51lb rated) and a drysuit. I had to put quite a bit of gas in my suit not to sink at the beginning of the the dive and I was by no mean a skinny guy !

I suspect the wing was restricted to some extend. Considering this was a 51lb wing, I do wonder if it would be much better with a 45lb unrestricted wing.

The razor looks great so is a Nomad.

This is like comparing a McIntosh apple vs a Red Delicious apple. Some like the McIntosh better some don't. But either way, if you want to make apple juice, you are much better with a McIntosh or a Delicious than an orange.

[Greenwood_60]

...like comparing a McIntosh apple...

I'm a PC guy, sorry.

[TobinGeorge]

I think you came to the same conclusion I did but in a much simpler and understandable way. :)

As my long winded post says - 104's plus 2x80's plus 2x40's works if you are a bit buoyant but is still borderline...


Increase the Helium % :)

Tobin

[Merlin Rhoda]

Increase the Helium % :)

Tobin

I thought about that, but a popular Florida cave is ~ 100' and done on ean32. Admittedly I wouldn't carry a 70' deco bottle there ...

I hate to agree with Andrew, but the comment "courses for horses" is a good summation. Within its performance envelope the Razor2 is an excellent rig. If you really want to haul a bunch of crap around with you then you may want something a bit bigger.

My typical Florida cave dive has used 2xLP104's, 1xAlu80, and 1xAlu40. This load is within the the Razors limits and I'm looking forward to using it next time I'm out there.

[TobinGeorge]

Don't forget some divers are less buoyant than others.

Personal buoyancy will impact total ballast required, but it doesn't need to be compensated for with a Buoyancy Compensator.

Unlike neoprene, "bioprene" (i.e. excess body fat) doesn't compress at depth.

If a diver is XX lbs buoyant at the surface in their birthday suit they will XX lbs buoyant at depth too, assuming they are breathing compressed gas.

Same holds true for the low body fat crowd, XX negative at the surface and XX negative at depth.

Add more suit buoyancy or more gas and the minimum lift require go up. Eating more burgers doesn't do it.

Tobin

[Greenwood_60]

Personal buoyancy will impact total ballast required, but it doesn't need to be compensated for with a Buoyancy Compensator.

You are correct... if you use ballast! The vast majority (I don't know of a single one) Steel BM divers (don't mean to leave out SMers, but I don't have the knowledge to speak on them) in this area are negative by quite a bit. Being as "sinky" as I am, I have to run a DR classic at almost full capacity at the beginning of a dive. This is in cave pumped PST 104s, an ABS BP, and a 5mm wetsuit and hood. No ballast. So we dive with big ass wings (55-60lbs of lift) and some sort of redundant lift for the caves that can't be crawled out of.

I pumped up my wing one time to stride in to Orange Grove (water level is WAY too low to use the stairs), and sunk about 10 ft, and stopped. Had to pump more gas in to pop back up to OK my buddy. It is possible that I didn't have it full, or that some came out upon impact... but it doesn't take much with me.

[TobinGeorge]

You are correct... if you use ballast! The vast majority (I don't know of a single one) Steel BM divers (don't mean to leave out SMers, but I don't have the knowledge to speak on them) in this area are negative by quite a bit. Being as "sinky" as I am, I have to run a DR classic at almost full capacity at the beginning of a dive. This is in cave pumped PST 104s, an ABS BP, and a 5mm wetsuit and hood. No ballast. So we dive with big ass wings (55-60lbs of lift) and some sort of redundant lift for the caves that can't be crawled out of.

I pumped up my wing one time to stride in to Orange Grove (water level is WAY too low to use the stairs), and sunk about 10 ft, and stopped. Had to pump more gas in to pop back up to OK my buddy. It is possible that I didn't have it full, or that some came out upon impact... but it doesn't take much with me.'

Sounds like an argument for less negative bottles.....

Tobin

[SuPrBuGmAn]

You're not a cave diver are you?

[jj1987]

You are correct... if you use ballast! The vast majority (I don't know of a single one) Steel BM divers (don't mean to leave out SMers, but I don't have the knowledge to speak on them) in this area are negative by quite a bit. Being as "sinky" as I am, I have to run a DR classic at almost full capacity at the beginning of a dive. This is in cave pumped PST 104s, an ABS BP, and a 5mm wetsuit and hood. No ballast. So we dive with big ass wings (55-60lbs of lift) and some sort of redundant lift for the caves that can't be crawled out of.

I pumped up my wing one time to stride in to Orange Grove (water level is WAY too low to use the stairs), and sunk about 10 ft, and stopped. Had to pump more gas in to pop back up to OK my buddy. It is possible that I didn't have it full, or that some came out upon impact... but it doesn't take much with me.
I would suggest weighting yourself when your doubles have about 200-300psi in them. I bet you'd be surprised at how hard it is to maintain depth. I have to use SS backplate with LP104s, and extra v weight using fabers.

[aainslie]

There's this weird dodging of a key equipment issue in this whole thread. Drysuits work best with steel, wetsuits with AL. Simple. I know people dive the other pairs all the time, but the BEST combo is those.

Greenwood_60, I'll lay odds you're a wetsuit kinda guy.


You're not a cave diver are you?

Who cares? he's one of the best equipment manufacturers out there. Why? Because he has a brain, and an eye for design.

And understanding buoyancy can come about either through applying intellect and staying dry, or not bothering and screwing up a few hundred times until Pavlovian reactions set in.

Sheesh Tobin, why do i always find myself either defending you or attacking you, but never on the fence? :)

[ffdiver5597]

I would suggest weighting yourself when your doubles have about 200-300psi in them. I bet you'd be surprised at how hard it is to maintain depth. I have to use SS backplate with LP104s, and extra v weight using fabers.

You weight yourself considering your tanks are almost competely empty? That's alot of weight to be carrying around on almost every dive, since you don't breathe down your tanks that far.

[aainslie]

You weight yourself considering your tanks are almost competely empty? That's alot of weight to be carrying around on almost every dive, since you don't breathe down your tanks that far.

Ah yes, but wait until the day when you do, and added to your state of panic is the fact that you're pinned to the ceiling. Been there, done that and don't intend to repeat it... FWIW a scooter sure helps when this happens

[phillip1]

I'm a PC guy, sorry.
PC's suck

[jj1987]

You weight yourself considering your tanks are almost competely empty? That's alot of weight to be carrying around on almost every dive, since you don't breathe down your tanks that far.

Read Andrew's post and think about what would have happened if his event took place at Eagles Nest, Harveys, or a host of other places where there isn't a ceiling at 20ft. Taking a neurological DCS hit in a remote area could mean death or brain damage.


Ah yes, but wait until the day when you do, and added to your state of panic is the fact that you're pinned to the ceiling. Been there, done that and don't intend to repeat it... FWIW a scooter sure helps when this happens

Considering 7mm wetsuits can easily be 15-20lbs + buoyant, an AL plate with HP130s + bands + manifold (about 6lbs negative) simply wouldn't have enough weight to keep a cave diver under their decompression ceiling if they had to share gas with a buddy on exit.

[ffdiver5597]

Never really thought about it that throughly. How much weight do you use on a given dive, and what size wing do you use to compensate for the extra weight?

[jj1987]

Never really thought about it that throughly. How much weight do you use on a given dive, and what size wing do you use to compensate for the extra weight?

I use a 55lb wing. It's enough to float 2xHP130s with a 6lb weight, 2 stages and 1 deco gas at the surface with little to no dry suit inflation. It's important to remember that many gear manufactures weight their wings based off of theoretical lift rather than actual lift, so when you put the wing between tanks you might be getting 60-70% of what's advertised. DSS and Halcyon do not do this, I'm not sure about other manufactures. It's also worth mentioning that those two are the only two gear manufactures in the US that can make wings *in house*, no others can play around with shapes/sizes to find something that's near perfect, finding max lift and limited drag. Halcyon uses a cloth bladder, DSS uses a very thick plastic, of which I prefer the cloth for pinch flat reasons. DSS does have a stronger shell than the H wing, which I guess would play more into my decision if I were diving wrecks often. Anyways, that's off topic, but I think relevant discussion any time wings are being talked about, as DSS/Halcyon don't really do a good job at educating the customer as to why they bring such a high price tag.

Anyways, back on topic...If I need more than 2 stages, I use 30%+ helium in each stage so they float. My last long Manatee Springs dive I used 2xAL80's of 32% and 2xAL80 21/35, but if I didn't have the gas already filled, I would use 30/30 to keep the 100ft gas o2 all the same. When you compare the cost of 30/30 to the cost of driving out to the dive site the day before to do a setup dive, its actually quite a bit cheaper. If you include a 2nd deco bottle, you're diving deep, so your bottom stages will have helium anyways, and your load becomes lighter and lighter the more deco gases you require, because you'll need more He in your mix.

Because of this, I never see myself needing more lift than 2xAL80s and 1xAL40s on top of LP104's filled with nitrox for "back gas". If Tobins wing provides 45lbs lift (and I would believe that it does given his history), I don't see any issues diving it unless you're diving wet.

[Merlin Rhoda]

Never really thought about it that throughly. How much weight do you use on a given dive, and what size wing do you use to compensate for the extra weight?

This is the ballast vs. variable weighting discussion that we've been having. One should weight ones self so they are neutral with empty or nearly empty tanks, then use the wing to compensate for the weight of the gas and stages they carry.

The trouble comes up when you have skinny guys with light weight undergarments diving 108's... Tobins answer is to dive lighter tanks and while he's not wrong, I don't see that happening in Florida where the 108 is king. I say dive thicker undergarments.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I think I'd die from heatstroke if I wore undergarmets :/ and diving an extra two tanks so I can dive lighter tanks is just a stupid alternative IMO.

[jj1987]

I'm thinking this whole argument stems from gear manufactures rating a wing when it's not attached to the device it's used for. I can't figure out how anyone on here is more negative than 45lbs without a back plate, even with a 6lb trim weight.

[Greenwood_60]

PC's suck


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d85p7JZXNy8

I got some kool-aid for you too.

[Greenwood_60]

Greenwood_60, I'll lay odds you're a wetsuit kinda guy.

Yep. Never been in a cave over 1.5 hours, nor been below 130' in 72 degree spring water. I get warm on long swims in a 5mm suit. Also grew up swimming in a glacier fed lake in the cascades.

I had never considered what my buoyancy would look like if I were to exit on nearly empty tanks. As far as I can figure without weighing myself underwater in full kit, I will still sink with empty 104s (below 10' for sure) The one I am now concerned with is my floaty-ass dive partner, diving faber 95s. Gonna have to go over all this with her. I may pick up a fish scale and weigh her in the water this weekend. I am 100% sure she will float with empty tanks.

[phillip1]

Although I understand the concept of needing to be neutral with empty tanks I do not dive that way, it would mean that I would need to do all my dives overweighted in case one day I actually breath my tanks dry.
With empty tanks I am positive above say 3-4 meters not much but positive, more or less neutral to slightly positive at depth with empty tanks.
There are two schools of though that I know of on this matter and both are correct IMHO to a point.
If you dive a bit negative in case you breath tanks dry i guess that is ok since only a small additional amount of air will be used in the wing to compensate and should not make a very big difference, however if you are diving substantially heavier just in case you may breath tanks dry I think that is a mistake, you will always be way too negative, always have a bunch of air in the wing making your whole rig way less streamlined and never understand how to be properly weighted in the first place, a wing is not made to compensate for systematic improper weighting.

There is a big difference between people who actually think about being weighted negative in the eventuality of breathing tanks dry (I don't dive that way but respect that choice) and divers who are just plain overweighted and are so used to compensating with a wing they don't even know they are way overweighed in the first place.

[Puttzer]

Ah yes, but wait until the day when you do, and added to your state of panic is the fact that you're pinned to the ceiling. Been there, done that and don't intend to repeat it... FWIW a scooter sure helps when this happens

Wonder if I'll be the only diver bleeding his tanks down this weekend at the end of a dive: to check my buoyancy at 200 psi.

[TobinGeorge]

The trouble comes up when you have skinny guys with light weight undergarments diving 108's... Tobins answer is to dive lighter tanks and while he's not wrong, I don't see that happening in Florida where the 108 is king. I say dive thicker undergarments.

Either is OK by me.

Tobin

[Skorpiov]

I got some kool-aid for you too.

This was friggin awesome!

[Greenwood_60]

Wonder if I'll be the only diver bleeding his tanks down this weekend at the end of a dive: to check my buoyancy at 200 psi.

Nope :)

Well, I may not bother going that far. May just weigh myself with a deflated wing and subtract the weight of the volume of gas.

[TobinGeorge]

What I recommend:

Test you exposure suit's buoyancy.

Wetsuit, roll it up and add lead until it sinks.

Drysuit, put on your undies and suit only, jump into neck deep water with a bag of too much ballast. Vent the suit while standing. Remove lead until you just sink when you pick up your feet.
Weigh the bag of lead. Bingo, suit buoyancy with minimum gas in it.

Might need slight adjustment if you are personally very floaty or personally very negative.

Once you know the buoyancy of your suit getting your ballast pretty damn close is easy. Tank buoyancy numbers are published, and solid metal items like regs can simply be weighed dry.

Tobin

[skip]

be careful getting into the water with only a drysuit. the decostop had a post several years ago about a drowning while swimming drysuit only. the neck seal gave out, water rushed in, and the guy went from positive to negative. it was the ocean, off the back of a boat to cool down before adding tanks, etc. Will you float or sink with a flooded drysuit? Depends on undergarments I guess.

skip

[TobinGeorge]

be careful getting into the water with only a drysuit. the decostop had a post several years ago about a drowning while swimming drysuit only. the neck seal gave out, water rushed in, and the guy went from positive to negative. it was the ocean, off the back of a boat to cool down before adding tanks, etc. Will you float or sink with a flooded drysuit? Depends on undergarments I guess.

skip

Ah Two Points.

1) Drysuits loose buoyancy not because water gets in, but because gas gets out.

&


jump into neck deep water

Tobin

[chrisp]

I like this idea of TRYING the Razor 2. When are you Razor guys going to bring a bunch of them to FL Cave Country so we can all try them??? I mean, nobody is going to BUY one just to try it, but if you bring them to us we'd be happy to try them. Who knows, we may like them and actually buy them. It's pretty easy to get Nomads and Armadillos to try around here.

BTW Tobin, I cave dive with BM LP104's, an AL plate, drysuit, and NO weight but am still significantly negatively buoyant with damn near empty tanks. There is no way in hell I'm switching to those tiny aluminum tanks (at least not for back gas). I met you once at DEMA and you were very adamant that your way is the only way. I'm glad to see you haven't changed at all.

[TobinGeorge]

I like this idea of TRYING the Razor 2. When are you Razor guys going to bring a bunch of them to FL Cave Country so we can all try them??? I mean, nobody is going to BUY one just to try it, but if you bring them to us we'd be happy to try them. Who knows, we may like them and actually buy them. It's pretty easy to get Nomads and Armadillos to try around here.

Our current efforts are focused on meeting the overwhelming demand. All those "nobody's" that aren't buying them are keeping us pretty busy. We were working yesterday, overtime, on a three day weekend trying to reduce he backlog...........


BTW Tobin, I cave dive with BM LP104's, an AL plate, drysuit, and NO weight but am still significantly negatively buoyant with damn near empty tanks. There is no way in hell I'm switching to those tiny aluminum tanks (at least not for back gas). I met you once at DEMA and you were very adamant that your way is the only way. I'm glad to see you haven't changed at all.

There are large steel cylinders that are much less negative than 104's

Tobin