Razor2

[NEON]

Just wanted to share my excitement of getting a chance to dive the new razor harness. H.P. and Steve have put a lot of thought in the development of it and it shows. Even though it seemed initially a bit more complicated than the original Razor I've been diving so far, the transition was virtually seamless once in the water. The new hardware is great and the pouch could fit just about anything I could think of and have room for a back up mask. The wing is extremely low profile and IMO offers greater stability compared to the MSR.

Overall - I was pleasantly surprised!
Apparently the on-line shop launched last night and the complete systemit is now available to order on line. If you are thinking of getting one fast - hurry. I was told that there is only a limited number available at the moment.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

$800 is steep for a simplistic harness based system...

[FW]

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/12405-New-Sidemount-harness.

[Tegg]

$800 is steep for a simplistic harness based system...

Is that how much it is? Ouch....

Guess I'll stick to my D-ring harness system and MSR bag... :)

[break4]

If you want to compare it with the other systems on the market, then you would have to purchase just the Razor Harness 2 and the new BAT wing. You will end up with a price of USD 694, which none of the others can compare with in terms of features.
- Redundant super streamlined double bladder wing with 45 lbs of lift to name just one :)

[SuPrBuGmAn]

What features are you reffering to? Aside from maybe the wing... Isnt' the entire point of the harness systems to get away from the 'features'?

[Gdiver]

DITTO.

[Cantey]

wow, you could cut that price in half and it would still be too steep.

[gearhound]

While I think it is a lot of money, I will come to their defense. I just checked on Divegearexpress, and a Dive Rite dual bladder wing was $458. So I think they're in the right ballpark for the price of a wing manufactured by DSS. Can you find another dual bladder wing for significantly cheaper? Saying that, I probably won't be purchasing one. I admire and respect Mr. Bogaerts. He brought a sense of style and innovation to sidemount diving. Everybody is trying to copy him and claim how their system is new, different and better...but they are all copies of the original.
I think the major resistance that Steve will face comes from his own innovation. He was the one that taught us that it can be done with an $25 MSR Dromedary bag. Now he's asking the same group to pay $399 for a bladder. I would have preferred they just built a wing like the MSR bag with a inflator and OPV valve and charged a lot less (although I'm sure there will be poeple on this board that will complain about the price, no matter what it is). Protec is charging $299 for their single bladder wing and, to me, it lacks a sense of style.

[NEON]

The sysyem is reasonably priced IMO - just look at what all the other sidemount systems are priced at - be it Nomad, Oms, Holis, Armadillo, Stealth, the Utd clone just to name a few. I guess one could do with a bent street sign and clorox jugs instead of say Halcyon Backplate and Evolve wing. The recent massive increase in the popularity of sidemount is largely due to a couple of videos shot by H.P. and posted on You-tube. Why not give the inventors what's due rather than encourage a shady second market, clones, and theft of ideas just to "save a few bucks"?

[Gdiver]

While I think it is a lot of money, I will come to their defense. I just checked on Divegearexpress, and a Dive Rite dual bladder wing was $458. So I think they're in the right ballpark for the price of a wing manufactured by DSS. Can you find another dual bladder wing for significantly cheaper? Saying that, I probably won't be purchasing one. I admire and respect Mr. Bogaerts. He brought a sense of style and innovation to sidemount diving. Everybody is trying to copy him and claim how their system is new, different and better...but they are all copies of the original.
I think the major resistance that Steve will face comes from his own innovation. He was the one that taught us that it can be done with an $25 MSR Dromedary bag. Now he's asking the same group to pay $399 for a bladder. I would have preferred they just built a wing like the MSR bag with a inflator and OPV valve and charged a lot less (although I'm sure there will be poeple on this board that will complain about the price, no matter what it is). Protec is charging $299 for their single bladder wing and, to me, it lacks a sense of style.

his is not original

[ffdiver5597]

I think the major resistance that Steve will face comes from his own innovation. He was the one that taught us that it can be done with an $25 MSR Dromedary bag. Now he's asking the same group to pay $399 for a bladder. I would have preferred they just built a wing like the MSR bag with a inflator and OPV valve and charged a lot less (although I'm sure there will be poeple on this board that will complain about the price, no matter what it is). Protec is charging $299 for their single bladder wing and, to me, it lacks a sense of style.

If the creator of the system was happy and willing to teach people on the system using a $25 dromedary bag, then why would the same people shell out for a $400 wing, that does the same job as the bag?

[phillip1]

Although you can make an MSR work it is IMHO like fixing something with duct tape. The new wing is far better and if you need the lift it works perfect, is redundant, streamlined etc.. IMO the whole system is not any more expensive than a Nomad, Armadillo, hollis etc.. and yes it is just webbing with hardware but so are all the other harnesses too so I do not really get the complaining about the Razor's price.
DSS makes very high quality stuff and the Razor 2 is no exception, it is a complete system with more lift than most people will ever need and can be used with steel tanks, cold water etc....

As for Steve not being original, maybe sump divers have been diving similar harness in sumps but Steve was the only one to see the potential of those types of harnesses for cave diving, not just dive a sump harness but develop a whole system, technique and philosophy around a sump type harness for cave diving.

[FW]

As for Steve not being original, maybe sump divers have been diving similar harness in sumps but Steve was the only one to see the potential of those types of harnesses for cave diving, not just dive a sump harness but develop a whole system, technique and philosophy around a sump type harness for cave diving.
Maybe not the ONLY one :-)

[phillip1]

I meant of the cave divers, of course the sump divers already knew all this and smile but the cave divers did not at all in fact 99.9% of cave divers have never even physically seen a sump harness (myself included) or even know what it takes to dive sumps.
What I mean is the sump harnesses have been around forever but of the cave divers what I see is that Steve is the only one who actually developed a cave diving system around a minimalist sump type harness.

[RAL]

The sysyem is reasonably priced IMO - just look at what all the other sidemount systems are priced at - be it Nomad, Oms, Holis, Armadillo, Stealth, the Utd clone just to name a few. I guess one could do with a bent street sign and clorox jugs instead of say Halcyon Backplate and Evolve wing. The recent massive increase in the popularity of sidemount is largely due to a couple of videos shot by H.P. and posted on You-tube. Why not give the inventors what's due rather than encourage a shady second market, clones, and theft of ideas just to "save a few bucks"?

Kinda like arguing that charging the same amount of money for a Chinese scooter as a Harley makes good sense...they both go down the road so the scooter price is reasonable....really? I have some land for sale if you are in the market.....................


RAL

[SuPrBuGmAn]

While I think it is a lot of money, I will come to their defense. I just checked on Divegearexpress, and a Dive Rite dual bladder wing was $458. So I think they're in the right ballpark for the price of a wing manufactured by DSS. Can you find another dual bladder wing for significantly cheaper? Saying that, I probably won't be purchasing one. I admire and respect Mr. Bogaerts. He brought a sense of style and innovation to sidemount diving. Everybody is trying to copy him and claim how their system is new, different and better...but they are all copies of the original.
I think the major resistance that Steve will face comes from his own innovation. He was the one that taught us that it can be done with an $25 MSR Dromedary bag. Now he's asking the same group to pay $399 for a bladder. I would have preferred they just built a wing like the MSR bag with a inflator and OPV valve and charged a lot less (although I'm sure there will be poeple on this board that will complain about the price, no matter what it is). Protec is charging $299 for their single bladder wing and, to me, it lacks a sense of style.

Honestly, I like the DSS wing Steve is using. Its simple and no frills and designed to put the lift where appropriate. However, its(no frills wing) not enough to warrant the pricetag when everything else is just basic harness, basic hardware, and a few custom plates(that others have found they can do without).

The 'feature' rich sidemount systems, which have way too much involved in them can be had between $425 and $700(DiveRite and Oxycheq) at http://caveadventurers.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=80 . The Hollis for $684-864 at http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/HLSSMS.html . The simplistic harness based systems are supposed to be the simplistic, no frills answer to those convoluted systems. There's MUCH MUCH less involved in them, but they cost more in almost every case???

That makes no sense.


The sysyem is reasonably priced IMO - just look at what all the other sidemount systems are priced at - be it Nomad, Oms, Holis, Armadillo, Stealth, the Utd clone just to name a few. I guess one could do with a bent street sign and clorox jugs instead of say Halcyon Backplate and Evolve wing.

The harness based systems ARE the proverbial bent street sign and clorox jug... but with an extremely bloated price tag.

[loquat149]

Glad to see the new Razor wing is finally available. Looks like the power inflator hose on this (and the ProTec clone) would route over the chest inflator button of both my 905 and 350 drysuits :(


Dave

[OFG-1]

Steve is the only one who actually developed a cave diving system around a minimalist sump type harness.

I hate to break this to you but commercial divers were clipping bailout bottles to both sides of a Miller bell harness in the early 70's. True, a 48" diameter pipeline is not a cave, but it is close.

http://www.millerdiving.com/images/stories/harnesses/miller_backpack_adjustable.jpg

[break4]

Honestly, I like the DSS wing Steve is using. Its simple and no frills and designed to put the lift where appropriate. However, its(no frills wing) not enough to warrant the pricetag when everything else is just basic harness, basic hardware, and a few custom plates(that others have found they can do without).

The 'feature' rich sidemount systems, which have way too much involved in them can be had between $425 and $700(DiveRite and Oxycheq) at http://caveadventurers.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=80 . The Hollis for $684-864 at http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/HLSSMS.html . The simplistic harness based systems are supposed to be the simplistic, no frills answer to those convoluted systems. There's MUCH MUCH less involved in them, but they cost more in almost every case???

That makes no sense.



The harness based systems ARE the proverbial bent street sign and clorox jug... but with an extremely bloated price tag.

If you want to compare the new Razor Side Mount System, then you really have to compare what you get from it comparing to the other systems.
The Price of 799 USD is for the COMPLETE system.
If you take the new Razor Harness 2 and the redundant BAT Wing you end up with a price of 694 USD which is in the range of the other brands. But you get some unique features like 45 lbs of lift (on both primary and backup), a real redundant wing, a custom fit for your body, a B ring (where I'm sure somebody will find a picture that it was used in 1910 or whatever), the new closing system (simple but very effective), plates to screw in directly in a very high quality etc.
And at the end you get a brand new system, that has already been testet in the hardest dive conditions in real SM caves while making the connection in Ox bel Ha.

So please stop complaining about a system, that you haven't dove already and look, what the ones are saying who did.

[LCF]

Just an observation on the idea that you have to act now . . . I have been in personal communication with Tobin George of DSS. He says the distribution issues have been ironed out, and DSS will be selling this setup for Steve. One can thus avoid shipping charges from MX, and supply should not be an issue.

I had a look at the setup while I was down in MX last week -- as one would expect from anything manufactured by DSS, it appears to be of very good quality, and the 45 lbs of lift makes the system applicable to my own cold water diving, where the prior small bag was not.

Nothing good in diving is cheap, and nothing in cave diving is cheap at all. We all have to make price/value decisions about what we buy. In my admittedly limited experience with dive gear, the things I've bought that were at or near high end price were also good things that have lasted me well.

[gearhound]

I hate to break this to you but commercial divers were clipping bailout bottles to both sides of a Miller bell harness in the early 70's. True, a 48" diameter pipeline is not a cave, but it is close.

http://www.millerdiving.com/images/stories/harnesses/miller_backpack_adjustable.jpg

And Native Americans were here long ago, but I bet you still say Columbus discovered America.

I don't have a have a horse in this race, but I do know that I have never heard of anybody using a Camelback hydration system for buoyancy until I went diving in Mexico a few years back. I thought that was crazy! All the research I had done into sidemount brought up modified stab jackets, the Nomad and the Armadillo (which I have). I'll give Steve credit for the system that he developed and that everyone is trying to copy now. I think his system and his videos are works of art. Expensive, but really nice to look at.

I have an old Scubapro X-tec that looks like it was the predecessor to the Transpac, but I still credit Dive Rite for turning it into the Nomad and making sidemount rigs commercially available.

[FW]

...I have an old Scubapro X-tec that looks like it was the predecessor to the Transpac, but I still credit Dive Rite for turning it into the Nomad and making sidemount rigs commercially available.
The X-Tec IS a Transpac. When DiveRite switched over to the Transpac 2, the surplus Transpac I(s) were re-lableled and sold to ScubaPro.

[rongoodman]

I see the complete system and all the individual parts are now listed on the DSS site.

[gearhound]

The X-Tec IS a Transpac. When DiveRite switched over to the Transpac 2, the surplus Transpac I(s) were re-lableled and sold to ScubaPro.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!

[NEON]

I hate to break this to you but commercial divers were clipping bailout bottles to both sides of a Miller bell harness in the early 70's. True, a 48" diameter pipeline is not a cave, but it is close.

http://www.millerdiving.com/images/stories/harnesses/miller_backpack_adjustable.jpg

I'd love to see you gracefully diving sidemount cave in one of these...

[NEON]

The 'feature' rich sidemount systems, which have way too much involved in them can be had between $425 and $700(DiveRite and Oxycheq) at http://caveadventurers.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=80 . The Hollis for $684-864 at http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/HLSSMS.html . The simplistic harness based systems are supposed to be the simplistic, no frills answer to those convoluted systems. There's MUCH MUCH less involved in them, but they cost more in almost every case???

That makes no sense.

So you're saying that its fine to get an overpriced bells and whistles system produced most likely in Asia- a cluster that most end up striping to basic webbing, buckle and a wing, but a minimalist, cleanly and inteligently design system is not worth it?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Its webbing, very little hardware, and a neat wing - no, you shouldn't have to pay out the ass for that.

[Slüdge]

The X-Tec IS a Transpac. When DiveRite switched over to the Transpac 2, the surplus Transpac I(s) were re-lableled and sold to ScubaPro.

Nope. What happened was the BC that was to be the TransPac II was being built by Dive Rite's OEM (Soniform), but because of some disagreement, they weren't delivered. A different iteration became the TransPac II, so the undelivered ones were badged as the Scubapro X-Tek. (Scubapro's parent company also owned Soniform.)

Forrest, I have a TransPac I, a TransPac II, and an X-Tek if you would like to compare them. The X-Tek was the BC I used from 1999 to 2010.

[Maureen]

You know there will always be people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. I agree with the poster who suggested you see it and try diving in one. Last time i looked wings were that expensive no matter who made them. Also consider if you are an American that you are supporting a local manufacturer. That's important.

[FW]

Nope. What happened was the BC that was to be the TransPac II was being built by Dive Rite's OEM (Soniform), but because of some disagreement, they weren't delivered. A different iteration became the TransPac II, so the undelivered ones were badged as the Scubapro X-Tek. (Scubapro's parent company also owned Soniform.)

Forrest, I have a TransPac I, a TransPac II, and an X-Tek if you would like to compare them. The X-Tek was the BC I used from 1999 to 2010.
That is not how Lamar explained it to me. It is possible that Soniform didn't make them to DiveRites specifications though.

[DA Aquamaster]

I've discussed it with both Lamar and various folks at Scubapro and transpac/x-tec truth is firmly in the middle. Dive rite was moving on to the transpac 2 and Scubapro brought out the s-tek and x-tek lines using the basic transpac design with some minor mods.

But basically yes, Scubapro used the transpac in their original technical diving line. I still have my x-tek wing and use it for redundant floatation on deep offshore warm water dives.

It was, comparatively speaking, way better than the technical crap they sell now. Scubapro started with a decent halcyon back plate (apparently the other half of the deal where Halcyon sells rebranded SP regs) but then added crap to the wings such as an overabundance of dump valves and obviously engineered with no real concept of what a technical wing needs and doesn't need.

[FW]

....

Welcome back, and congratulations on your 100th cave dive.

[Slüdge]

... the technical crap they sell now...

I was at JB last week, in the water by the diving board, when somebody walked up and asked me how I liked the Scubapro gear. Of course I gave him the RCA Dog look (a lot of my gear is Scubapro) and he mentioned he is a Scubapro dealer. I should mention at this point I was unaware they are selling rebranded H wings.

To clarify, since 1999 I have used an X-Tek TravTek wing in open water and an X-Tek ProTek wing with doubles. But in 2005 they put the wings (by then called S-Tek) on clearance so I bought several and just recently started using a NOS RecTek wing. He must have thought it was one of the new ones.

For the record, I will NOT use one of the new ones.

[NEON]

Its webbing, very little hardware, and a neat wing - no, you shouldn't have to pay out the ass for that.

You could make exactly the same statement about any of the other sidemount harnesses. Sorry, you will just have to add a pillow load of foam a couple of drawer handles and an exploration reel full of stitching thread.

[phillip1]

You could make exactly the same statement about any of the other sidemount harnesses. Sorry, you will just have to add a pillow load of foam a couple of drawer handles and an exploration reel full of stitching thread.

I agree, if you look at a Nomad (I have one in front of me now) it's only a webbing harness (+ plastic parts) and a wing all sewn together, this particular one does not have the pillow of foam anymore...lol, I think the only thing the Nomad has extra than the Razor 2 in it's manufacturing "costs" is a lot of stitching done in a cheap asian or mexican sweatshop, other than the Nomad has nothing more in it's construction than the new Razor2 and they both coast the same which to me seems fair whichever one you decide to buy.

[kwinter]

I think the only thing the Nomad has extra than the Razor 2 in it's manufacturing "costs" is a lot of stitching done in a cheap asian or mexican sweatshop, other than the Nomad has nothing more in it's construction than the new Razor2 and they both cost the same which to me seems fair whichever one you decide to buy.

??? Razor complete - $800; Nomad EXP complete - $500. But maybe you think that's not a fair comparison. The Nomad XT or JT systems are both about $700.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

You could make exactly the same statement about any of the other sidemount harnesses. Sorry, you will just have to add a pillow load of foam a couple of drawer handles and an exploration reel full of stitching thread.

..and yet with all those 'extras'(LOL), its still cheaper.

[phillip1]

oops did not check the prices in a loong time for the Nomads, the EXP is on sale. So really the Razor is only $100 buck more than a Nomad but you get a Ferrari for a 100 buck more though

[phillip1]

In all fairness, if you are in the market for a new SM harness, the Nomad JT is $700, the Hollis double wing is $863, the Armadillo is $600,
So the Razor 2 is the 2nd most expensive so what? IMHO it is by far the absolute best of the those and it is redundant wing too, I mean I am very fortunate to have gotten one a few months ago, but if I had to buy one now I would definitely dish out $100 more and get a Razor or wait till I had the $ instead of getting a Nomad, Dillo etc..not that the Nomad JT is bad or anything (that is a different subject) just that it is about the same price as is every wing and harness anyway too. I think the problem is that the Razor is so streamlined that the Nomad Dillo etc.. all look like they are more than a Razor when in reality they too are no more than webbing and a wing, just all sewn together looks more "manufactured" therefore appear to be worth more money.

[RAL]

oops did not check the prices in a loong time for the Nomads, the EXP is on sale. So really the Razor is only $100 buck more than a Nomad but you get a Ferrari for a 100 buck more though

Kinda like comparing a Chinese scooter to a Harley. Using your thinking they both go down the road so that justifies charging as much or more for way less.
Its a couple yards of webbing and $80 worth of hardware with a minimal wing.:smt102 Sorry have a hard time seeing $400 let alone $800.:smt102

RAL

[gearhound]

Alright, I thought i would do a little studying on this topic. I think we can establish that a dual bladder wing in going to run you upwards of $400. It's an additional $150 on a Nomad at Divegearexpress.
So with the harness, you are given the option of building one yourself. They do sell the parts separately. So $40 for each plate (that's what Bonediver was charging for the copies).
From divegearexpress:

Hogarthian harness kit $70
Rigid d-rings x 2 $10
bolt snaps x 2 $14
bungee (from hardware store) $5
B butt ring (from DSS) $15

So, a total of $194. Still not exactly cheap. Definitely more than $80. And I assemble it myself. I won't tell you what my shop time is worth, but I don't come cheap.
But, cave diving ain't cheap. I spent $1200 on a flashlight. Try telling that to a non-diver and see what they say!

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Alright, I thought i would do a little studying on this topic. I think we can establish that a dual bladder wing in going to run you upwards of $400. It's an additional $150 on a Nomad at Divegearexpress.
So with the harness, you are given the option of building one yourself. They do sell the parts separately. So $40 for each plate (that's what Bonediver was charging for the copies).
From divegearexpress:

Hogarthian harness kit $70
Rigid d-rings x 2 $10
bolt snaps x 2 $14
bungee (from hardware store) $5
B butt ring (from DSS) $15

So, a total of $194. Still not exactly cheap. Definitely more than $80. And I assemble it myself. I won't tell you what my shop time is worth, but I don't come cheap.
But, cave diving ain't cheap. I spent $1200 on a flashlight. Try telling that to a non-diver and see what they say!

Shop around, you can do it for less.

For example... http://caveadventurers.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_36&products_id=143 $40 Hog harness kit.



...and really, you can buy webbing by the foot at just about any dive shop. Its super cheap.


Study harder.

[gearhound]

Shop around, you can do it for less.

For example... http://caveadventurers.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_36&products_id=143 $40 Hog harness kit.



...and really, you can buy webbing by the foot at just about any dive shop. Its super cheap.


Study harder.

I'm pretty sure it still adds up to more than $80.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I just gave you a link to an entire Hog kit for less than $40????

[FW]

This quote is from the Gear Exchange forum, in the "sticky" about terms of use. It applies here as well:

"Please don't flame prices if you don't agree with a price, simply don't buy it."

[gearhound]

Its a couple yards of webbing and $80 worth of hardware with a minimal wing.:smt102 Sorry have a hard time seeing $400 let alone $800

Bug,
You're going to need more than that hog harness to dive sidemount, so it's still going to cost you more than $80.
People seem to be going down the line of: a quarter pounder costs $3, but I can can buy the raw hamburger at the grocery store for cheaper. But you still need to buy the bun and condiments. And there are labor costs that McDonalds has to cover.

The thing is, Bogaerts and DSS give you the option of building it yourself. They sell the parts individually and they even give you a free download of how it all goes together.

It's been brought up that you can buy the Nomad EXP on sale for $499, but nobody seems to complain that the Nomad JT is $700. Isn't the JT supposed to have less hardware?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Bug,
You're going to need more than that hog harness to dive sidemount, so it's still going to cost you more than $80.
People seem to be going down the line of: a quarter pounder costs $3, but I can can buy the raw hamburger at the grocery store for cheaper. But you still need to buy the bun and condiments. And there are labor costs that McDonalds has to cover.

You listed $80 for a Hog harness, then you listed the condiments(extra money).

I listed <$40 for a Hog harness, of course you still need the condiments, and it'll cost more than $80(total), but less than your claimed $194(by 20%ish after looking up a single item). We don't count the condiments twice.

[mdax]

When my nomad wears out i'll be purchasing a new razor
I patent ideas at work and value the innovative components of the system
My light was 1300, 699 per reg..of which i have 12, 300 per steel tank...just doesn't seem like a sport where there is much cost savings on gear, nor an activity where i have any patience for gear that's not exactly right.
Way cheaper than my ex wife though, and WAY more satisfying.

[phillip1]

very good point, why does the JT cost $200 more?

[icestac]

very good point, why does the JT cost $200 more?

Because it is new and not on sale yet (sale meaning reduced price, not unavailable). Once the "early adopters" buy them up, I'm sure they will come along and discount any "excess" inventory to move the product. It does no one any good to have inventory collecting dust. It is all just standard business - you want to get as much money for your product as people are willing to pay. Just look at some of the for sale threads on the scuba forums -- they start out high and go lower as time goes on until the goods are sold.

Cheers,
Jeff

[SuPrBuGmAn]

For starters its got a wing that will last far longer, not the standard material.

[DeepSea]

the Armadillo is $600

It comes with 2 cam bands and SS suicide clips too...

I am pretty sure Jakub is the only one selling a "complete" system.

Love the Razor...Love my Aramadillo. In the end, the Razor is yet another tool but it IS a sidemount rig <period>. So that makes 2 commercially available ones now.

Do you know what kind of spring Tobin is using in the OPV? We replace the one in the Aramdillo so it can be used > 250'

[DeepSea]

You're going to need more than that hog harness to dive sidemount, so it's still going to cost you more than $80.

You can EASILY (cavers have been doing it for a wee bit of time) dive sidemount with bungie crossed behind your back and a belt with D-rings...use a wetsuit and 80s...

[loquat149]

Do you know what kind of spring Tobin is using in the OPV? We replace the one in the Aramdillo so it can be used > 250'

Walter, what do you replace the stock Armadillo spring with?

[JamieZ]

Thats the way the hollis comes, 2 cam bands and 4 bolt snaps. Paid $475 brand new

[phillip1]

really when you look at the entire Razor 2 package you get for $800 it is a great harness system and price wise as compared with the JT it is only $100 more but you get a redundant wing and a cool pouch to me it is worth it.

http://www.gosidemount.com/razor/overview.asp

[Tegg]

really when you look at the entire Razor 2 package you get for $800 it is a great harness system and price wise as compared with the JT it is only $100 more but you get a redundant wing and a cool pouch to me it is worth it.

http://www.gosidemount.com/razor/overview.asp

How much are you being paid?

[TONY CHANEY]

We replace the one in the Aramdillo so it can be used > 250'

How did you come up with the need to replace them? There has to be a hech of a story behind it.

[SMB]

Hello All,
I am happy that there is a lot of interest in the new Razor Side Mount System (RSMS) and I hope that anyone who decides to get one enjoys diving with it as much as I do.

There seems to be some confusion however about exactly what the RSMS is and why it is designed the way it is. If you go to the www.gosidemount.com website there is a great deal of info including all the manuals that can be downloaded for free and hopefully that will answer a lot of people’s questions.

Did I mention that the manuals are free? :yawinkle:

I designed the original Razor for myself in 2005 to meet the exploration needs I had at that time which required a complete rethink in my equipment setup and configuration.
I needed a system that would work with both SM tanks and heavy equipment loads with multiple stages and DPV’s but would also strip down quickly and effortlessly into a very minimalist streamlined no mount rig.

Well as my Grandma always said “the proof of the pudding is in the eating” and the exploration I have been doing over the last 6 years using the Razor, including the connection between Sistema Sac Actun and Sistema Nohoch Nah Chich in Jan 2007 and the connection between Sistema Ox Bel Ha and Sistema Naranjal in March 2011, really put the Razor through the toughest tests possible and it has come through with flying colors.

The Razor has continued to evolve over that time and I still have all the old harnesses I built along the way as well as pages and pages of notes, diagrams and technical drawings of the harness and other components.

When I started out to build a better SM system for myself I began from scratch with a blank page and have literally spent thousands of hours thinking about the design of the system and all the associated configuration issues, skill sets and procedures as well as hundreds of hours in the water actually diving all the prototypes and testing all the theory in the water.

As well as hundreds of test dives I have also done a lot of exploration and taught a lot of SM courses over that time that has also helped to further refine and improve the system.

The new RSMS is the culmination of over 6 years of refinements and testing and the distillation of over 15 years of my own side mount diving experience.

The Razor is unique and is not a copy of any previous SM system or harness including the UK style sump diving harnesses which are quite different in concept, design and application.

The new BAT Wing is based on a design concept that I had 5 years ago. The camelback/MSR style oral inflation BCD that I introduced as a quick fix to a problem of providing a small amount of buoyancy in a minimilist fashion was only ever intended to be a short term solution but it worked so well that it’s life and popularity has been much greater than I ever expected.

As well as the MSR BCD does work it clearly has limitations and the BAT Wing addresses all of these as well as providing much greater safety and functionality in a very low profile easy to use package that greatly increases the flexibility of the RSMS.

The BAT wing provides sufficient lift to dive the RSMS with steel SM tanks and multiple stages in cold water configuration and is steamlined enough to be almost unnoticable when not required or can be removed completely in less than 30 seconds if desired.

As far as price is concerned you have to compare like with like. The RSMS is a complete package that includes the Razor Harness 2 that comes standard with a cold water D Ring setup, the double redundant Bat Wing, the T Weight System, the Expandable Pouch with 2 stainless steel double enders, a low profile D Ring kit for warm water diving, a spare SM bungee and a tool/spares kit. Also don't forget all the free manuals :)

All that for $799 is I think a fair price and compares well with what other manufactures are offering. In addition all the components and parts can be purchased individually if required.

The RSMS is being manufactured by Deep Sea Supply. DSS has a well proven track record for their attention to detail and robust, functional products.

If you look at how much thought and detail has gone into the RSMS and the excellent quality of manufacture provided by DSS I truly believe the RSMS offers extremely good value for money.

If you still think it is too expensive or just not for you then there is a simple solution….don’t buy it!

However buying cheap knock off clones hurts all of us in the long run and stifles innovation and new product development.

Sorry for the long post I will get back in the water now
Oh and by the way that water is in Malta where I am teaching a side mount open water course at the moment. Today we dived a very nice wreck at a depth of 35m.
I was diving in a Drysuit with Faber 12L 240Bar SM tanks and I had absolutely no gas in the BAT Wing at all and just used my drysuit for buoyancy control........so I guess you can dive in cold water, in a drysuit, with steel tanks, in the sea, with the Razor after all contrary to all the "expert" opinion :roll:

However you choose to dive in O/C or C/C, BM or SM, in the Razor Side Mount System or with one of the other excellent side mount rigs available have fun and be safe.

Regards to all
Steve
Steve Bogaerts

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Most of us don't want to use a drysuit for bouyancy control.



The availability of cheap knockoffs might indicate a price point being too high, for something easily manufactured.



I like the Bat wing, wish it came in single bladder. It'd be a good pair for a cheap knockoff, IJS.

[SMB]

Most of us don't want to use a drysuit for bouyancy control.

Then use the wing :roll:
The point was that diving a properly balanced rig with steel tanks in a drysuit you need very little buoyancy anyway from either a wing or a drysuit with just your primary SM tanks so that you have plenty of lift left over for multiple stages or deco bottles etc.

I had enough gas in my suit to offset any suit squeeze, zero gas in my wing the entire dive and controlled my buoyancy most of the time using lung volume just like I do when I dive in a wetsuit.

Many times "experts" have claimed that the Razor cannot be used in cold water, or with a drysuit, or with steel tanks, or with multiple stages etc etc all of which is complete BS

[ffdiver5597]

First off I think the razor looks great, very well thought out. But $400 for a wing is way over priced, $100 less then yes I would buy one.

You showed us all that it could be done with a $40 msr bag, and according to your last post the msr bag would have worked fine with a drysuit and steel tanks.

I wish you the best of luck with your system, again it looks great and I'm upset that it's priced way above my means for what I want out of it.

[SMB]

First off I think the razor looks great, very well thought out. But $400 for a wing is way over priced, $100 less then yes I would buy one.

You showed us all that it could be done with a $40 msr bag, and according to your last post the msr bag would have worked fine with a drysuit and steel tanks.

I wish you the best of luck with your system, again it looks great and I'm upset that it's priced way above my means for what I want out of it.

Yes you could dive with an MSR bag with just the primary SM tanks but when you start adding heavier equipment loads it becomes less than optimal.
Also the convenience of a power inflator is nice as well as the security of a completely redundant system.
In life you get what you pay for and quality and features cost money.
I just spent $400 on a new tire for my truck............sure I could have got one a lot cheaper but would probably regret that decision when i get a blow out on the highway while doing 100kph

[SMB]

First off I think the razor looks great, very well thought out. But $400 for a wing is way over priced, $100 less then yes I would buy one.



Hmm I just had a quick look at Dive Gear Express and all the dual wings there are $458.............so I guess the redundant Razor BAT Wing is actually underpriced :)

[ffdiver5597]

$458 for a double-bladder wing that can fit on any backplate sold by any manufacturer. As a consumer you are not forced to buy the dive rite harness and backplate to use that wing.

A universal redundant wing that could be used on any rig be it a nomad or a razor or sms100 might be priced right at 400, but yours even though looks awesome, is married to the razor system. and at the price point you set it at seems steep. IMHO.

Looking at DSS wings, granted they might not be redundant, are all priced lower and again can be used on any system. And I'm sure he put it the same amount of time into construction and thought into designing them.

[SMB]

$458 for a double-bladder wing that can fit on any backplate sold by any manufacturer. As a consumer you are not forced to buy the dive rite harness and backplate to use that wing.

A universal redundant wing that could be used on any rig be it a nomad or a razor or sms100 might be priced right at 400, but yours even though looks awesome, is married to the razor system. and at the price point you set it at seems steep. IMHO.

Looking at DSS wings, granted they might not be redundant, are all priced lower and again can be used on any system. And I'm sure he put it the same amount of time into construction and thought into designing them.

Well actually you can use the BAT Wing with pretty much any other system as well.
If you buy it seperately from the Razor Harness it comes with the special wing triglide and wing tab that will allow you to fit it to any harness that has a crotch strap.
Perhaps you should read the manual and educate yourself first about the things you are giving opinions on

[ffdiver5597]

Well, then I was wrong. It looked according to the manual it seemed like the only way to attach it was with the screw heads and other special equipment.

I didn't mean any disrespect with my comments and again I think it looks good but just priced too high for me. Best of luck with it.

[rotor60driver]

If you go to the www.gosidemount.com website there is a great deal of info including all the manuals that can be downloaded for free and hopefully that will answer a lot of people’s questions.

Steve
Steve Bogaerts


According to your website there is a minimum $1.00 purchase. So the manuals are only free to those already making a purchase. Normally I would say that I understand this except that I can't see how questions will be answered for some if they need to make a purchase first.

[SMB]

Well, then I was wrong. It looked according to the manual it seemed like the only way to attach it was with the screw heads and other special equipment.

I didn't mean any disrespect with my comments and again I think it looks good but just priced too high for me. Best of luck with it.

Thanks
To be honest I am getting fed up with people complaining about the price when they are not comparing like with like or have not checked their facts
For example the Dual Nomad XT Wing is priced at $500 on Dive Gear Express
The BAT Wing is a very good quality product priced at a very competative price when compared with similar wings from other manufacturers and has some unique features that no other SM wing has

[SMB]

According to your website there is a minimum $1.00 purchase. So the manuals are only free to those already making a purchase. Normally I would say that I understand this except that I can't see how questions will be answered for some if they need to make a purchase first.

No purchase is required to download the manuals.
Just click on the download button.

[rotor60driver]

No purchase is required to download the manuals.
Just click on the download button.


Thanks for clarifying if for me. I was treating it like a purchase and put it in the "cart".

[phillip1]

All this arguing is pointless, the Razor 2 with the new bat wing is only $100 more than the new Nomad JT, so what? You get a top notch harness system with a wing that is in a class of its own, the Razor 2 is pretty much the same price as other SM harnesses but you get way more.
Actually the bat wing is cheaper and so much better than a DR dual bladder.

The new bat wing is for lack of a better word, genius and together with the razor 2 you get a revolutionary cutting edge diving system that is made in the USA by DSS and is a top quality product that is going to last you a long long time, in fact way longer than if you buy a Nomad or any othet harness, so what is the problem with dishing out 100 bucks more?

Were is the Nomad made? Armadillo? Hollis I wonder, maybe in the USA but most probably Mexico, Eastern Europe or Asia...

[WQFTruckster]

Were is the Nomad made? Armadillo? Hollis I wonder, maybe in the USA but most probably Mexico, Eastern Europe or Asia...

FYI The Nomad and almost every component on it is made, sewn, and assembled in the USA. In fact, about the only parts made in Asia are the stainless hardware which, I'm guessing, comes from the same factory as much of the (non DSS) hardware on the razor. Even most of the raw materials and molded plastic parts on it are made domestically.

[BB1]

I have done my homework as I tend to research things to death before making a final choice (my hard earned $$'s are spent as wisely as possible in this day and age) and my choices are NOT always the cheapest and I AM comparing like for like below

Well I for one think the BAT wing IS worth the money and I'll explain why:

Normal DSS wings (there are 3 in my house along with their BP and harnesses all from DSS) cost around $330 and I'm quite happy to pay for the quality and differences I personally like is those wings.
The new BAT wing is $399 with the bungee tri-glide. So for an extra $70 I get a redundant bladder and associated hardware inc boltsnap and waist bungee. Seems more than fair to me!

However........

Taking $10 worth (Divegear Express or anywhere really) of low profile d-rings and serrated tri-glides and selling it for $30 as a low profile D-ring kit is more than a bit over the top.

Sidemount bungee kit $40 for 2 small stainless boltsnaps and some bungee - seriously?!?!?

The list could go on, there are some parts that are obviously well worth every penny spent on them but others where you just shake your head in amazement.

I do applaud you though, both for the free manuals and for making component parts available for sale as I am very interested in a sidemount setup and this seems so much more streamlined than the Armadillo which I have been looking at before.

I guess my best option will be to buy the parts I need and source the rest from my spares box or cheaper sources.

[phillip1]

All the currently available SM harnesses cost about the same give or take, I think the difference with the Razor is that it is so streamlined that some people see it as having less in it than other traditional sewn in harnesses and complain about the price when in fact the Razor 2 is on par price wise with the competition, it just looks radically different and the only real difference (aside form design, performance etc..) is it does not have any sewn in wing.
As I have said before IMHO it is well worth the money, for 800 bucks you get everything you could possibly ever need in a harness to dive everything from a shallow beginner reef with your OW girlfriend to a gnarly deep cold water wreck with steel tanks, oh and you can also dive any cave in the world too, all with ONE same harness and with the best performance and comfort of any other available harness out there, now that's versatile and worth the 800 bucks.

[CaveBuddy95]

On top of what Phil says, I'd add that the Razor 2 is also the only one that is 'sidemount only' system. All the others 'can' be used with doubles, singles or RBs, hence they'r inadequacy with a pure sidemount only system.
The result of 10 years of evolution and more years of sidemount only, as Phil calls them, velcro caves.

Less is more!

:)

[WJH]

On top of what Phil says, I'd add that the Razor 2 is also the only one that is 'sidemount only' system. All the others 'can' be used with doubles, singles or RBs, hence they'r inadequacy with a pure sidemount only system. . . . Less is more!

:)

???!! That I can not use the one harness for ALL my diving--SM, Doubles, Single tank teaching dives--is a benefit?!! You could work as a marketing expert for Microsoft! My Hollis SMS 100 does everything! I sold my Backplate, single wing, doubles wing, BC, and can do all of my diving with this single excellent rig. Yes, less is more. I now own fewer pieces of gear and can do more diving with what I have!

WJH

[phillip1]

The future of diving is SM

[gearhound]

???!! That I can not use the one harness for ALL my diving--SM, Doubles, Single tank teaching dives--is a benefit?!! You could work as a marketing expert for Microsoft! My Hollis SMS 100 does everything! I sold my Backplate, single wing, doubles wing, BC, and can do all of my diving with this single excellent rig. Yes, less is more. I now own fewer pieces of gear and can do more diving with what I have!

WJH
Being able to do it, and looking good doing it are two different things. I own a Hollis and have used it for diving singles. Not the ideal set up. Supposedly you can dive doubles with it, but I haven't and won't try that. Are there some sort of adapter plates that you need? Definitely not like the Nomad with mini plate adapters for backmount twins. But, we're sidemounters now, who needs to backmount twins?
The SMS 100 is not nearly as precise as the Razor in warm water. My buddy brought his Hollis down to Mexico on our last trip. He was ready to throw it away once we got back, and he saw how much better we were with the Razor. We still use the Hollis rigs for diving cold water with steel tanks. I haven't purchased or dove the Razor 2, but am aware of what can be accomplished with the Razor and an MSR bag. (BTW, I own an Armadillo and have access to a Nomad also)

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Less is more!

:)

You got that right, a minimalist product for an inflated price! :D

[Skorpiov]

If it were me, (not knowing what the production costs are) I'd lower the price by $100, do an extensive targeted marketing campaign, and try to capture the market rather than being a superior contender with a less than acceptable market share. I'm looking at going sidemount, and am just starting to undertand the differences and nuances. I DO like the idea that a lot of thought went into the configuration, but there are a number of SM rigs out there, and as yet, I don't see the difference between that and the JT that has also been re-designed and streamlined for SM. Dive Rite and their method of holding the local try-me events, will likely put me in a position to TRY the JT before I find someone my size with a Razor2 to test. If I like it, I'll likely get that.

If the Razor 2 were widely available to try, I might be in a better position to see which I like before I make a purchase and as such might be willing to spend the extra money. I certainly wont buy until I try. I guess the bottom line is, if its better, you need to get the thing out there for everyone to try to prove its better. Starting up as a small one product company with no marketing and charging more than any of the contenders seems like a short-sighted business plan.

[break4]

If it were me, (not knowing what the production costs are) I'd lower the price by $100, do an extensive targeted marketing campaign, and try to capture the market rather than being a superior contender with a less than acceptable market share. I'm looking at going sidemount, and am just starting to undertand the differences and nuances. I DO like the idea that a lot of thought went into the configuration, but there are a number of SM rigs out there, and as yet, I don't see the difference between that and the JT that has also been re-designed and streamlined for SM. Dive Rite and their method of holding the local try-me events, will likely put me in a position to TRY the JT before I find someone my size with a Razor2 to test. If I like it, I'll likely get that.

If the Razor 2 were widely available to try, I might be in a better position to see which I like before I make a purchase and as such might be willing to spend the extra money. I certainly wont buy until I try. I guess the bottom line is, if its better, you need to get the thing out there for everyone to try to prove its better. Starting up as a small one product company with no marketing and charging more than any of the contenders seems like a short-sighted business plan.

To that I just can say: why does everybody knows the Razor and this with nearly no marketing budget?
Another hugh advantage of the Razor Side Mount Sytem is: one size fits all! You don't have to choose between Medium, Large, X Large. The Razor comes in the size you want it to be. A lot of time and effort went into, how can we keep the system suitable for everybody?
And that's what it is now. Whatever shape your body may be. The Razor fits it.
This is just another reason, why you can find just happy Razor divers out there.

[rongoodman]

Everybody wishes things cost less. It seems to me that the Razor is competitive in price with the systems from UTD and Protec, its only real competition, especially if ordered without all the extras. I ordered the wing and some of the new hardware to update my old harness today and can't wait to get it into the water.

[BB1]

Another hugh advantage of the Razor Side Mount Sytem is: one size fits all! You don't have to choose between Medium, Large, X Large. The Razor comes in the size you want it to be. A lot of time and effort went into, how can we keep the system suitable for everybody? And that's what it is now. Whatever shape your body may be. The Razor fits it.

And you have just described a hogarthian harness with 1 piece webbing available for purchase from $40!

[rongoodman]

If you think you can build the equivalent of a Razor or UTD harness for $40, including the machine work on the plates, you should definitely go for it. You could sell them for $100, a 150% mark up, and get rich.

[break4]

As well here please compare like with like.
As a small hint: the Razor comes with 2-inch Resin-reinforced webbing.
And by one size fits all I'm talking about the WHOLE Sytem including the wing, the harness and the components.

[JamieZ]

I guarantee I could make that harness with plates for $40........I did the same thing when I made and sold p-valves, my sell price was $35, less then half what some were charging, I chucked one up on a lathe, made myself happy with the results, fired up a free autocad program, took my prototype and drawings to the local tool shop,,,,they made them for me for $7 a piece.....
If you think you can build the equivalent of a Razor or UTD harness for $40, including the machine work on the plates, you should definitely go for it. You could sell them for $100, a 150% mark up, and get rich.

This is where you have no clue,,,,,get rich off of one product in a small market,,,,I sold roughly 4-500 valves

[BB1]

Ron I didn't say you could build one for $40, read my post again and what I quoted! break4 described a one size fits all harness - sound familiar to you??? Hence my comment about describing a standard hogarthian harness.

I think you could build the an equivalent harness for around $150 (a fair guess as I'm at work but not exactly accurate) based on buying the 2 main plates needed.

My current Hogarthian harnesses all have 2" stiff webbing so no difference there then.

The issue I think (IMHO) some people have is not with the wing etc - as I've previously stated I think its worth every cent - but rather a highly overpriced harness!

The wing and how it integrates is brilliant - a great evolution from the msr bag with real value - rethink the harness pricing and I think you'll have a winner as the overall package price will come down to very favourably comparable!

[icestac]

To that I just can say: why does everybody knows the Razor and this with nearly no marketing budget?
Another hugh advantage of the Razor Side Mount Sytem is: one size fits all! You don't have to choose between Medium, Large, X Large. The Razor comes in the size you want it to be. A lot of time and effort went into, how can we keep the system suitable for everybody?
And that's what it is now. Whatever shape your body may be. The Razor fits it.

But if you have a buddy that is significantly different than you in size, you're not going to reconfigure his gear to do a try dive. I think that was his point.


This is just another reason, why you can find just happy Razor divers out there.

FWIW, I have yet to see a single diver in a Razor in N. Florida. Happy or otherwise.

Cheers,
Jeff

[phillip1]

basically with the razor you are getting a harness and a removable wing, with a armadillo or nomad you a getting the EXACT same thing only wth a non removable wing, so if I follow this train of thought if the razor harness was sewn in and the wing were not removable then some of you would not have a problem with the price since it would look more "manufactured"
Every single harness available is in varying designs, webbing, hardware and a wing, from a sell price point of view what is different with the razor other than the fact that the wing is removable.
If you take a look at the hardware on the new razor2 it is far superior in both design and quality to anything out there, especially when compared to the nomad, I am not sure about the JT as I have not seen it in person but the EXP and the original nomad really seem cheaply made when compared to the new razor2 and bat wing.

I do not mean to knock the Nomad or anything I am just saying that the razor 2 is worth the extra 100 bucks hands down.

[BB1]

Following your train of thought then an Armadillo at $570 is a lot more attractive than $800! My issue is nothing to do with a "manufactured" look. It is to do with $10 of low profile d-rings and some tri-glides becoming $30 etc. Makes no sense and leaves a bad taste.

People keep talking up the 2nd bladder but personally I can quite easily live without it - not needed in my plans!

Perhaps down the track a BAT wing2 with only the power inflator setup and single bladder??

I personally don't think anyone is going to agree here. Those who sell it will always justify it, those who bought it will always justify as they parted with their hard earned to get it and those of us looking in from the outside sometimes just have a hard time justifying the premium applied to some of the hardwar for absolutely no good reason!

Each to their own and good luck for all who buy it as I'm sure they'll love it!

I'm looking forward to more objective reviews from a few regulars here on this forum!!

[phillip1]

I have been diving the Razor since it was first released, do I qualify to post comments and reviews about it? I am being objective.
Way before I started diving the Razor I paid $750 for a Nomad which I liked at the time, I then sold that to Bobby and bought an Armadillo for $700 which I liked even more, a few years after that I went to Mexico and discovered the Razor which I liked even even more, to date IMO it is the best and I have been diving it exclusively ever since.

Now I do not regret nor did I hesitate to pay top dollars for my Nomad and Armadillo and at the time they were what I considered the best harnesses I could possibly buy, just like I now consider the Razor 2 to be the best harness I could possibly buy. If someone comes up with an even better design I will be first in line to get one.

To me my harness is my most important piece of gear upon which all else is added, it is the foundation of all my diving and must allow me to dive comfortably and safely in any condition and situation I might find myself in, I do not cheap out on that (or any other piece of gear for that matter) and I will always buy what I think is the best harness, if I do not have the money then I wait until I can afford it.

The thing about other dual bladder wings is that they are bulky and it is really annoying having two inflators, the bat wing is not like that at all, you do not even notice not even a bit that it is a dual bladder wing, and the redundant side is oral inflation, it's like it's not even there at all, you have to see it to believe it.

Really in all fairness price-wise the Razor 2 is on par with other harnesses out there now.
The Armadillo was more expensive years ago and was like $695+ shipping back then, I still have it actually but have not used it in years.

The hardware on the Razor 2 is part of a package that I think is worth the price

[ynot]

basically with the razor you are getting a harness and a removable wing, with a armadillo or nomad you a getting the EXACT same thing only wth a non removable wing


Nomad XT has a fully removable wing and butt plate. Can strip it back to being a Transpac and use for singles/doubles

Tony

[CaveBuddy95]

There is saying that goes as such:
'You don't know what you don't know'


(this whole thread is turning into a pissing contest, it's pathetic, I'm out!)

[lokilokeren]

I do not understand all this complaining about the price of the Razor system. My own harness and wing is home made. Not because I wanted to save some money, but mainly because what was on the market didn't work for me. The new Razor is the first Sidemount system on the market that I might be willing to spend some money on. As I am primarily a European caver and we tend to dive with our equipment hanging together with snoopy loop, that is a hard thing to admit. -)
When I want something, I look up the price and save for it. (It took me 3 years before i bought my drysuit)
If I think something is to expensive I do not buy it or make it myself.
The new Razor looks so good, I have started saving already so I will be able to buy one in a year or so for some exploration in the Philippines. If anyone has a second hand one laying around by then I am interested.

[phillip1]

Nomad XT has a fully removable wing and butt plate. Can strip it back to being a Transpac and use for singles/doubles

Tony

My bad I have not seen the Nomad XT, but to tell you the truth If I liked the new Nomad JT I would not have a problem with the $700+shipping price either, I think DR being a much larger company can maybe afford to cut the cost by 100 bucks but really so what?
even if the new Nomad JT was $800 and that was the harness I really liked I would still buy one (providing i had the money or I would wait till i did) I think DR makes good quality harnesses and they are worth the money too.
As I said before, years ago I bought a Nomad for almost $800 and I think that was well worth it then, just like I think the new Razor2 system is well worth it now.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I don't actually have any issue with the Razor in and of itself. I just think the price is ridiculous, this is backed up by the existance of cheap copies.

Comparing like to like and all...

The Nomad has copies too, but they're no cheaper - so that leads me to believe they're at the right price point.

[kwinter]

Purely from a business perspective, coming out with a new product at the high price point is a strategic decision and has its own consequences. Maybe the quality and design are worth the extra cost. But as this thread clearly shows, there are some who will shy away from the premium price. Even early adopters. And many of these people are just the kind of folks that you actually want diving your gear and showing it to others. Pricing is part of an overall marketing strategy and can't be looked at in a vacuum.

Intorductory pricing is one strategy to get your product in front of the public. If they knocked off $100 as an introductory price for the first 60 days, it would put the new Razor more in line with the other options. Price becomes less of an issue for those choosing between options and threads like this go away. Sell 50 of them in the first couple of months and the lost revenue is $5,000. A very small price to pay for getting 50 high end systems out into the sidemount community where people can see them and ogle and drool and see that the extra $100 may be worth it. Overall sales would likely increase, compared to the bitter feelings that some people obviously have over the premium price of a system that just now became available and most would have to buy sight unseen.

Both strategies are well known in marketing. Which one is better in this case is anyone's guess. Maybe the elitist stature will work for them. Maybe not. But it isn't fair to judge whether something is worth the price in the market. It may not be worth it to you, but could be to others. Elasticity of demand means the price is set at what the market will bear.

Off my soapbox now.

[FW]

Back on page 5 of this thread I said:

This quote is from the Gear Exchange forum, in the "sticky" about terms of use. It applies here as well:

"Please don't flame prices if you don't agree with a price, simply don't buy it."

How about If I change "Please don't flame prices..." to "DON'T flame prices..."

I agree with Cavebuddy, this is getting way out of hand. If you don't like the Razor, or think it is too expensive, quit reading this thread!

[cavermatt]

How does the coin dump work on the Razor2? Is it just a purge valve? Will turning on your back, head down or contacting the ceiling cause it to vent itself?
And it looks bulky when inflated, how is it swimming when more than half full?
What is the wing made out of? Putting the wing between lead on the harness and a sharp cave ceiling seems problematic.

I like the design and I love the innovation, just had a few questions.

[CGriffing]

If you don't like the Razor, or think it is too expensive, quit reading this thread!

Wow, that's pretty harsh, Forrest. I can understand if you don't want them to post on here, but telling them not to even read the thread? C'mon.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Its OK to post, as long as you're pro-product.

[CGriffing]

Fascists!

[mdax]

all this talk about the price led me to be interested enough to check out the manual and all the pages...would like to check one out and possibly purchase it while in Tulum next week.

[break4]

How does the coin dump work on the Razor2? Is it just a purge valve? Will turning on your back, head down or contacting the ceiling cause it to vent itself?
No, not at all. You can turn in any direction you like without venting air. The coin dump releases just air when you gently press on it with your thumb or finger.

And it looks bulky when inflated, how is it swimming when more than half full?
I could say tuff at that moment, cause then you are facing normally already at least 4 tanks on your sides or you are completely overweighted. If you check out the multistage video of Steve you will notice, that even with 6 full aluminium 80s the wing is not even close to be used with full lift capacity. The wing is flexible on three sides so it never pushes against the divers back or creates air traps.

What is the wing made out of? Putting the wing between lead on the harness and a sharp cave ceiling seems problematic.
The BAT wing is extremely rugged and is constructed in 3 layers.
Two outer layers of abrasion resistant 1000 denier ballistic nylon with a layer of heavy gauge polyurethane sandwiched between them.
The wing is ultrasonically welded together and all of the edges are finished with edging tape.
All attachment points have heavy duty reinforced grommets.

Once in narrow caves, the wing will be anyway nearly not inflated. Because of the big amount of lift capacity the air inside the wing gets distributed perfectly and stays streamlined on your body. As well it creates a very stable plattform to dive from. And in the unlikely case that you would damage the outer shell you have a protected backup wing inside with the same amount of lift.


I like the design and I love the innovation, just had a few questions.

All the other answers to the wing you can find here:
http://www.gosidemount.com/Razor/razor_bat_wing.asp or just download the manual

[phillip1]

i can say from experience that the bat wing is not bulky at all when half full or more, i was diving way overweight in mexico due to two video light canisters on every dive, in the video you barely even notice the wing at all.
I was probably using about 20lbs lift more or less, i think that the larger capacity ends up making the wing more streamlined since a small amount of air in a big wing keeps it ...small and streamlined.

[FW]

Its OK to post, as long as you're pro-product.
All I said was don't flame the price, any other discussion is fine.

[CGriffing]

All I said was don't flame the price, any other discussion is fine.

You may have said that, but you also posted this:


.... If you don't like the Razor, or think it is too expensive, quit reading this thread!

I think your emotions got the best of you, there.

[CaveBuddy95]

exactly what I said before, a pissing contest!!
get a life people ;)

[Hammerhead Ferrari]

all this talk about the price led me to be interested enough to check out the manual and all the pages...would like to check one out and possibly purchase it while in Tulum next week.

Yes, you can buy it down there. They are located in Puerto Aventuras. emal Aztec Diving, as i believe that Steve is still out of the country, but HP will meet you and sell you one...he did for me. If you email him, he'll give you his cell #, then just call to arrange a time...
Enjoy

[kwinter]

FYI - The info I got from HP was that if you buy it down there it will cost more than if you get it in the US. He said they have to add the shipping cost from California to Mexico. I'm also going to see it when I'm there next week.

[floridabob]

Does anyone in NFL have one of the BAT wings? Razor harness, too? I would love to see it in the water, live.

I do not dive with any added weight but am negative to start. So putting on all the gear plus steel 95s and then adding a 2 stages and a soon-to-be-dropped O2 bottle puts me pretty dang heavy. Don't bother suggesting switching tanks, wont happen. I dive the lightest steels I can find. I stage using AL 80s. Very common and well used configuration that works well, just makes me a bit heavier at the start of the dive. So lift and distribution/streamlining matters to me, too.

Thanks for all the info on these products, by the way.

Very tempted to go the whole ball of wax, but I gotta touch something before I drop that kind of coin.

bob