Dive JB this Weekend?

[cavediver]

Did anyone dive JB this weekend? How was the vis? Is it clearing up? Thanks.

[kgault]

We dove at JB on Saturday; Vis is the same as it has been for the last few weeks, running around 50 to 70 ft. Flow is back up to where a Mako will make only a few feet of headway next to the first T. It is not the worst current I have seen there, but it is up there.

We did a pull and struggle dive for our second of the day ;)

The lightning storm was fierce at times, with a couple of divers being in the water for a large strike on the Millpond; that was a bright flash. They reported involuntary limb extensions; scary.

Keith

[cavediver]

That's an improvement. I dove it 3 weeks ago, and would give it 20-30 ft. Maybe it will be better next weekend. Unless the rain from this weekend brings it back down. The lightning thing is scary, some real danger.

[Genesis]

Yeah, don't dive in fresh water around thunderdunders.

The gradient is what can kill you. Salt water is LESS risky, as the conductivity is higher and thus the gradient is much lower.

In fresh water the conductivity is much lower, and your body is a PREFERRED path. That's bad news - you can be electrocuted quite easily.

Note that hand-to-hand conductivity (as in a drysuit) is a path directly through your heart. It takes only a few milliamps to stop it. Bad karma folks.

Hand-to-head isn't much better......

Saturday was just plain fugly in the Panhandle... I live here.....

[cabo]

Did anyone dive JB this weekend? How was the vis? Is it clearing up? Thanks.

Keith was in there today and said it was nice and clear again finally and the flow was strong but not to bad. If you have any other questions about Jb, Twin or Hole in the Wall let me know or you can call the shop at 850-482-6016 Thanks, Edd

[kgault]

Wingman and I took a look at the line repair just prior to 2nd breakdown room; There is insufficient line to run in close to the floor where it was previously; does anyone have know a source for Kermantle (sp?-- ) line?

Keith

[DeWayne]

Wingman and I took a look at the line repair just prior to 2nd breakdown room; There is insufficient line to run in close to the floor where it was previously; does anyone have know a source for Kermantle (sp?-- ) line?

Keith

Doesn't the CDS or NACD have a system in place for supplying line to make repairs with?

Get the boiled peanuts ready Keith, I'll be down that way on the 24th of this month 8)

[FW]

Wingman and I took a look at the line repair just prior to 2nd breakdown room; There is insufficient line to run in close to the floor where it was previously; does anyone have know a source for Kermantle (sp?-- ) line?

Keith

Doesn't the CDS or NACD have a system in place for supplying line to make repairs with?

Get the boiled peanuts ready Keith, I'll be down that way on the 24th of this month 8)

The CDS can supply goldline. What Jackson Blue needs is a "line committee" like Ginnie and Peacock have. Any volunteers?

[kgault]

I would be willing to volunteer time to a line committee; I only live an hour south of the spring. The lines at JB are getting older and are starting to need maintenance; Third T is another spot that could use a bit more line to resecure the tieoff.

When Pete still had his shop in Panama City, we took it upon ourselves to fix problem (keeping the line running as it was laid) and add the numbered line arrows. Having a local shop coordinate efforts would reduce duplication of effort; Ed are you willing?

Keith

[wingman]

I'd sure enjoy doing some line work as part of a committee on the mill pond as well. Bill

[cabo]

Wingman and I took a look at the line repair just prior to 2nd breakdown room; There is insufficient line to run in close to the floor where it was previously; does anyone have know a source for Kermantle (sp?-- ) line?

Keith

Doesn't the CDS or NACD have a system in place for supplying line to make repairs with?

Get the boiled peanuts ready Keith, I'll be down that way on the 24th of this month 8)

The CDS can supply goldline. What Jackson Blue needs is a "line committee" like Ginnie and Peacock have. Any volunteers?

I have some gold line here at Cave Adventurers and would be happy to put the line in and back where it was. Edd

[cabo]

I would be willing to volunteer time to a line committee; I only live an hour south of the spring. The lines at JB are getting older and are starting to need maintenance; Third T is another spot that could use a bit more line to resecure the tieoff.

When Pete still had his shop in Panama City, we took it upon ourselves to fix problem (keeping the line running as it was laid) and add the numbered line arrows. Having a local shop coordinate efforts would reduce duplication of effort; Ed are you willing?

Keith

I would be willing to be on a line committee for the caves of the Mill Pond as long as it doesn't cause any problems with all the people that were so apposed to me starting Cave Adventurers here on the Mill Pond when I first moved here. I love cavediving (which is why I moved here) but I am not so big on all the bull s#!t, I mean politics.
Happy Diving everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edd

[Dwain]

I would be willing to volunteer time to a line committee; I only live an hour south of the spring. The lines at JB are getting older and are starting to need maintenance; Third T is another spot that could use a bit more line to resecure the tieoff.

When Pete still had his shop in Panama City, we took it upon ourselves to fix problem (keeping the line running as it was laid) and add the numbered line arrows. Having a local shop coordinate efforts would reduce duplication of effort; Ed are you willing?

Keith

I would be willing to be on a line committee for the caves of the Mill Pond as long as it doesn't cause any problems with all the people that were so apposed to me starting Cave Adventurers here on the Mill Pond when I first moved here. I love cavediving (which is why I moved here) but I am not so big on all the bull s#!t, I mean politics.
Happy Diving everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edd


Edd,

Your doing what you love. Keep it up.

Safe Diving,

Dwain

[FW]

I would be willing to be on a line committee for the caves of the Mill Pond as long as it doesn't cause any problems with all the people that were so apposed to me starting Cave Adventurers here on the Mill Pond when I first moved here. I love cavediving (which is why I moved here) but I am not so big on all the bull s#!t, I mean politics.
Happy Diving everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edd

Good point. The only way to keep peace is have a multi organizational line committee, so there aren't any "line wars" like went on in Mexico a couple of years ago.

I will contact the NACD, and GUE and get their input. I am sure Scott Hunsucker will want some input as well.

[kgault]

Is membership in other line committees restricted? We could keep ours open to all interested Cave Divers. We would probably need to have a documented standard to restrict line changing battles (Man, what a can of worms this will be); is there one that the major training agencies already agree upon? JB is already a bit off of some peoples standard with the 4 Ts, and the semi-permenant jumps; I would not want the character of JB to be changed.

For now, how about we restrict ourselves to performing repairs that maintains the current/past mainline route. The mainline has been shrinking slowly as repairs have been made.

Keith

PS: Everyone have fun diving in the nice warm 68F caves, in my infinite wisdom I will be vacation diving in 42F water in the St Lawrence River. ;)

[FW]

Is membership in other line committees restricted? We could keep ours open to all interested Cave Divers. We would probably need to have a documented standard to restrict line changing battles (Man, what a can of worms this will be); is there one that the major training agencies already agree upon? JB is already a bit off of some peoples standard with the 4 Ts, and the semi-permenant jumps; I would not want the character of JB to be changed.

For now, how about we restrict ourselves to performing repairs that maintains the current/past mainline route. The mainline has been shrinking slowly as repairs have been made.

Keith


In theory, any cave diver should be able to repair a line :-)

You are right, repair only is the best thing to do, until an acceptable committee is formed. I agree, it should be open to anyone interested.

[DeWayne]

I would be willing to volunteer time to a line committee; I only live an hour south of the spring. The lines at JB are getting older and are starting to need maintenance; Third T is another spot that could use a bit more line to resecure the tieoff.

When Pete still had his shop in Panama City, we took it upon ourselves to fix problem (keeping the line running as it was laid) and add the numbered line arrows. Having a local shop coordinate efforts would reduce duplication of effort; Ed are you willing?

Keith

I would be willing to be on a line committee for the caves of the Mill Pond as long as it doesn't cause any problems with all the people that were so apposed to me starting Cave Adventurers here on the Mill Pond when I first moved here. I love cavediving (which is why I moved here) but I am not so big on all the bull s#!t, I mean politics.
Happy Diving everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edd

I thought the most vocal of those opponents had been quieted down long ago after taking the time to actually meet and talk to you, if not the hell with them. I think you care more about that system than anyone else that I have ever seen dive it Edd, so you would be the best choice to head up this sort of an effort. I also agree with Keith that it should be strictly repairs, let those who want to start changing lines stay in Luraville.

[cavediver]

Does JB really need a line committee? If Edd is willing to make repairs, let him. The line placement is good and doesn't need changing. Just repair worn out sections.

[DeWayne]

Does JB really need a line committee? If Edd is willing to make repairs, let him. The line placement is good and doesn't need changing. Just repair worn out sections.

I think the line committee idea is more about having someone to be responsible for seeing that the line gets replaced prior to it needing to be repaired. More of a maintenance thing than anything, which is why I think Edd is the best person to head up such an effort. The last thing I want to see on the pond is the crap that got started at Peacock recently.

[cavediver]

The following is by one of the divers that was shocked on the Mill Pond last weekend. An interesting read.


A Dive To Remember

By Chuck Noe



The following tale is told in order to hopefully pass on some useful information that may enhance your personal longevity. These occurrences of Saturday, April 30th left me with a newfound respect for good old Mother Nature.

While the hazards and pitfalls of cave diving are numerous, I’m a firm believer that they are manageable. In my opinion, a deliberate and logical thought process can go a long way towards leading a cave diver into old age. An attention to detail, and the unwillingness to cut corners are useful traits to have when venturing into such an inhospitable environment. Redundancy of equipment is enhanced further by redundancy of the thought processes.

Cave divers often hear the old joke about “cave diving after dark”, and divers in general often joke about “diving in the rain”. Well I’m here to tell you that “diving in the rain” now garners more concern and respect in my mind.

Friday night’s weather forecast called for a 25% chance of storms on Saturday, and a quick look at the TV radar Saturday morning showed storms to the northwest, in Alabama. Rob Steffen and I loaded the boat for our trip across Merritt’s Mill Pond with darkening skies, but nothing appeared too ominous at that time. In a few minutes we were tied up at the dive site where we slipped into our drysuits just before a light rain began to fall. It was actually pleasant as we traded the mid-day heat for a cool shower. We geared up, and then slipped below the surface for a relaxing hour-long dive in the nearby cave.

The rain continued to fall as we surfaced from our dive. Clambering into the boat, we witnessed the occasional rumbling of a distant cloud-to-cloud lightning discharge. Once or twice a louder report could be heard, but there were no visible cloud-to-ground strikes occurring in our area. Still, we decided to spend the surface interval under the protective canopy of the nearby Jackson Blue pavilion.

The weather remained uneventful as the two of us shared stories with the other divers at JB, and after an hour or so we got back into the boat and headed up the lake towards our next dive site, if you could call it that. “Indian Washtub” isn’t much more than a glorified crack in the bottom of the Mill Pond, but I had always intended to go there to poke around a bit. This seemed like a good time, so using half-spent sidemount cylinders, Rob and I secured the boat and entered the water to take a look. It was immediately obvious that we weren’t going to penetrate far with two cylinders so we surfaced briefly to discuss our plan of attack. As Rob re-submerged with a single tank, I followed him down to a depth of about 10 feet when a large bolt of cloud-to-ground lightning struck in our vicinity.

First of all let me acknowledge that if this strike had been truly “close” to us, I probably wouldn’t be writing this story. The dangers of lightning are well known, and the act of immersing oneself in water near such a discharge is not highly recommended. In my defense, as an experienced boater I am well aware of the hazards of boating near a lightning storm, but this sudden burst caught me quite by surprise.

The instant that the strike occurred, I was hit with a sharp, momentary shock that caused my entire body to involuntarily spasm. At the same time, I remember hearing the muffled clap of thunder. Realizing that I was unhurt, I began calling out “are you okay, are you okay” to Rob through my regulator. In that brief moment I had lost track of his whereabouts, and I couldn’t see him as I spun around in the water. I made a quick search of the bottom, which was very turbid by now, then headed for the surface. He had surfaced looking for me as well. Rob immediately asked if I was okay, and if I too had felt the strike. There was absolutely no doubt what we had experienced.

We exited the water in record time and fired up the Swamp Yacht. As Rob and I sped towards the boat ramp we considered stopping at the local dive store dock for refuge, but there was still very little local lightning activity. So we ventured the extra half-mile to the ramp where we hurriedly trailered the boat before seeking refuge in my van. As we pulled out onto the highway we decided to drop by the dive store to check on the other divers. As Rob and I approached the open side of the shop, we found the building crowded with divers in drysuits, undergarments, and wetsuits. The first word spoken to us was the question “did you guys hear that huge lightning strike?” We (sort of) laughed before telling them what we had just experienced. Rob’s friend Bill, who we had been visiting with at the JB pavilion, said he worried about us as the lighting strike occurred in our direction shortly after we left. Everyone acknowledged the single, loud, close strike as the reason they had gathered in the dive store.

Life’s odd experiences can be very rewarding, and in this case I will never forget the danger of sitting on the lake in an aluminum boat ANYWHERE in the vicinity of lightning. I can only attribute the favorable outcome to “good karma”, as I do my best to journey through this life with a positive attitude. Some people may simply call it “dumb luck”, and I’m okay with that as well. But in any case, be it karma or luck, I’ll never forget this particular life’s lesson.

[cabo]

Hey Chuck, I was glad you and Rob were ok. That day there was a lot of lightning but that one was so close and so BRIGHT and loud. Bill had just got to the shop and when that one hit he said "I hope those guy's are ok, that hit right by where they are diving".
It was good to finially meet you. Hope you will stop by again soon. Edd

[mcmacken]

The instant that the strike occurred, I was hit with a sharp, momentary shock that caused my entire body to involuntarily spasm. At the same time, I remember hearing the muffled clap of thunder. Realizing that I was unhurt, I began calling out “are you okay, are you okay” to Rob through my regulator. In that brief moment I had lost track of his whereabouts, and I couldn’t see him as I spun around in the water. I made a quick search of the bottom, which was very turbid by now, then headed for the surface. He had surfaced looking for me as well. Rob immediately asked if I was okay, and if I too had felt the strike. There was absolutely no doubt what we had experienced.


Oh boy, does this sound familiar. A few years ago a buddy and I were zapped on Hill 400 in Ginnie. We didn't know until we exited what had happened.

[cabo]

The instant that the strike occurred, I was hit with a sharp, momentary shock that caused my entire body to involuntarily spasm. At the same time, I remember hearing the muffled clap of thunder. Realizing that I was unhurt, I began calling out “are you okay, are you okay” to Rob through my regulator. In that brief moment I had lost track of his whereabouts, and I couldn’t see him as I spun around in the water. I made a quick search of the bottom, which was very turbid by now, then headed for the surface. He had surfaced looking for me as well. Rob immediately asked if I was okay, and if I too had felt the strike. There was absolutely no doubt what we had experienced.


Oh boy, does this sound familiar. A few years ago a buddy and I were zapped on Hill 400 in Ginnie. We didn't know until we exited what had happened.

I thought that the lightning strike while in the water stories were just that stories until Chuck and Rob came in after living through it. I just figured you would be safe in the water. A electrician said in theory if you are in water and not touching ground you would not get shocked. I guess he was WRONG! Edd

I had just exited the water at JB and was halfway to the pavilion when that bolt struck. Vince just looked out at the pond and said, "I hope Chuck and Rob didn't feel that!"

Needless to say, my planned one-hour surface interval became a three-hour surface interval.

Russell

[cabo]

Does JB really need a line committee? If Edd is willing to make repairs, let him. The line placement is good and doesn't need changing. Just repair worn out sections.

I think the line committee idea is more about having someone to be responsible for seeing that the line gets replaced prior to it needing to be repaired. More of a maintenance thing than anything, which is why I think Edd is the best person to head up such an effort. The last thing I want to see on the pond is the crap that got started at Peacock recently.

I agree that it should be primarily maintance and repair. I believe Scott did most if not all the gold line in that cave and did a great job and I can't think of anything that should be changed. Edd

[Scott Hunsucker]

Years ago when we ran goldline after Mike's death there were, at my last count, 19 Ts to the end of the line. It is cleaner now and should stay that way. I don't feel a line committe is needed as the area has always been an out-of-the-way no man's land. If a comittee is started then we have Peacock North, no need. There are enough people that dive JB on a fairly regular basis and would be able to simply fix what is broken. Why complicate something that is simple.

Run the line in the largest and most logical area of the cave and fix what is broken. Coming out, calling a meeting, setting schedules, etc is all overrated. If Edd has the line use it to repair only what is needed and don't take it upon anyone's private idea of the way it should be. This is the only way to keep the political agendas out.
Scott Hunsucker

[cabo]

Years ago when we ran goldline after Mike's death there were, at my last count, 19 Ts to the end of the line. It is cleaner now and should stay that way. I don't feel a line committe is needed as the area has always been an out-of-the-way no man's land. If a comittee is started then we have Peacock North, no need. There are enough people that dive JB on a fairly regular basis and would be able to simply fix what is broken. Why complicate something that is simple.

Run the line in the largest and most logical area of the cave and fix what is broken. Coming out, calling a meeting, setting schedules, etc is all overrated. If Edd has the line use it to repair only what is needed and don't take it upon anyone's private idea of the way it should be. This is the only way to keep the political agendas out.
Scott Hunsucker

I agree. The line is just where it needs to be, and I have gold line here at the shop and would be happy to repair any broken or worn line's. Edd

[Kenny P.]

Good point. The only way to keep peace is have a multi organizational line committee, so there aren't any "line wars" like went on in Mexico a couple of years ago.

I will contact the NACD, and GUE and get their input. I am sure Scott Hunsucker will want some input as well.

Forrest,
I'm sure you're right. As you know, Scott and Pat Watson took care of the lines in the millpond for a long time. Heather and Pat did a good part of JB, when the Gold was put in. Edd is there now and dives regularly enough to keep an eye on the lines. All these other volunteers are a good thing. Great spirit and much needed in out little niche.
Thanks to all,
Kenny P.

[Genesis]

The instant that the strike occurred, I was hit with a sharp, momentary shock that caused my entire body to involuntarily spasm. At the same time, I remember hearing the muffled clap of thunder. Realizing that I was unhurt, I began calling out “are you okay, are you okay” to Rob through my regulator. In that brief moment I had lost track of his whereabouts, and I couldn’t see him as I spun around in the water. I made a quick search of the bottom, which was very turbid by now, then headed for the surface. He had surfaced looking for me as well. Rob immediately asked if I was okay, and if I too had felt the strike. There was absolutely no doubt what we had experienced.


Oh boy, does this sound familiar. A few years ago a buddy and I were zapped on Hill 400 in Ginnie. We didn't know until we exited what had happened.

I thought that the lightning strike while in the water stories were just that stories until Chuck and Rob came in after living through it. I just figured you would be safe in the water. A electrician said in theory if you are in water and not touching ground you would not get shocked. I guess he was WRONG! Edd

That theory works well in salt water, which has greater conductivity than your body. The odds of getting hosed in salt water are very low.

It does not work in fresh water, where the water has HIGHER resistance than your body does.

It is the voltage gradient in the water that is the problem.

Grab a 10,000V line with one hand, all is fine. Provided there's no way for that current to get to a lower potential place, that is. This is why a bird can land on an uninsulated line and not fry.

Lightning hitting water sets up a gradient in the water, with a few million volts at the point of impact, dissipating with distance (in three dimensions)

The problem is that the gradient is pretty high over the distances between, say, your hands or a hand and your head (since your body proper is probably inside an insulated suit if you're diving dry) - and your body is a lower resistance path than the water is.

So if you happen to be in a fairly large area near where the strike occurs in fresh water you can get crisped.

A few milliamps through your heart (and between your hands is a pretty direct route!) can KILL.

In salt water you pretty much have to be hit almost directly to get hosed.

In fresh water this is not true.

Those guys were lucky...

Dive safely folks.... and keep an eye on the WX.

(BTW if its close its not 'thunder' - it sounds like a really loud snapping noise and the flash basically "blue-whites" your vision for a few seconds. If its REALLY close your hair stands up on end just before the flash and snapping noise. Guess how I know this.... :-D)

[wingman]

So if you happen to be in a fairly large area near where the strike occurs in fresh water you can get crisped.




They were at indian washtub and the bolt hit in the vicinity of twin, so that's about the width of the mill pond. Bill

[Genesis]

Yep. That's what I mean about "in the vicinity".

A few hundred yards can be bad in fresh water. In salt it almost has to hit you to do the same thing due to the higher conductivity of the water.

In salt water it can be argued that you're safer underwater than in the boat during a thunderstorm.... this is not necessarily true in the case of fresh water.

[caveman21]

The instant that the strike occurred, I was hit with a sharp, momentary shock that caused my entire body to involuntarily spasm. At the same time, I remember hearing the muffled clap of thunder. Realizing that I was unhurt, I began calling out “are you okay, are you okay” to Rob through my regulator. In that brief moment I had lost track of his whereabouts, and I couldn’t see him as I spun around in the water. I made a quick search of the bottom, which was very turbid by now, then headed for the surface. He had surfaced looking for me as well. Rob immediately asked if I was okay, and if I too had felt the strike. There was absolutely no doubt what we had experienced.


Oh boy, does this sound familiar. A few years ago a buddy and I were zapped on Hill 400 in Ginnie. We didn't know until we exited what had happened.

I thought that the lightning strike while in the water stories were just that stories until Chuck and Rob came in after living through it. I just figured you would be safe in the water. A electrician said in theory if you are in water and not touching ground you would not get shocked. I guess he was WRONG! Edd

Sounds like the strike that happened at the first CDF Social. Lightning popped a water oak about 50 feet from the pavilion and scared the mess out of all of us. That's as close as I ever care to be to a strike. You could feel the power of it when it hit and about a minute later the oak it hit fell apart. I remember a couple of divers that were in the water felt it way back in the cave.

Ron White